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Kimi Vs Romain 2013


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Poll: Who will finish ahead in 2013, Kimi, or Romain ?. (428 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will finish ahead in 2013, Kimi, or Romain ?.

  1. Kimi (391 votes [91.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 91.36%

  2. Romain (37 votes [8.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.64%

Who will get the first win, Kimi, or Romain ?.

  1. Kimi (377 votes [88.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 88.08%

  2. Romain (51 votes [11.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.92%

Will Romain improve, or will he still have problems ?.

  1. Yes, he'll improve. (282 votes [65.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 65.89%

  2. No, he'll still have problems. (146 votes [34.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.11%

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#1001 Vesuvius

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:45

Yes what has changed is that Räikkönen cant get his head around the tires on their first hot lap, but it hasn't actually been the compounds, they have not changed but the construction, perhaps the steel belted carcass heated faster and more evenly than the kevlar belted one.


Yes, it was already known before the season starts tha Kimi would benefit from new 2013 as they heat more quickly and make the car more oversteery and we saw it from Kimi's qualies that he was better than Romain but now it has changed thanks to tyre change and Kimi is struggling with front end and can't get it work as well as he wants ...LWB may indeed has some effect as Kimi was still performing better in dry quali at spa and Monza than Romain. Grosjean like these tyres much more and is confident with them and can do a great quali laps..hopefully Kimi can qualify closer to him in the remaining qualies so Lotus can have more podiums and maybe even win a race/races.

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#1002 heineken2008

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:22

not going through the 20+ pages of chatter, but let me ask you all:

 

How well do you all perform at your chosen jobs when you havent been paid?

 

Considering, Kimi appears to be doing an excellent job 



#1003 Vesuvius

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:33

not going through the 20+ pages of chatter, but let me ask you all:

 

How well do you all perform at your chosen jobs when you havent been paid?

 

Considering, Kimi appears to be doing an excellent job 

to put it simply...I wouldn´t do my work if I wouldnt be paid on time.



#1004 jedioriginal

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:59

Funny thing about Grosjeans performance this year. People are hailing him saying how much he improved .

After 15 races he's got 87 points. Last year he had 82 at the same stage. Not exactly a massive improvement... Kimi had 157 points last year at that stage, vs 177 points this year. So the difference have increased. The gap between them are bigger.

 

I was about to post about this too :up:

Kimi beater,yeah right.Propaganda is a mighty tool :smoking:  



#1005 SpaMaster

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:04

but didn't he say actually that he made the mistake?

Yes, he said that. But there has been a bigger overlying problem - sorting out the car set-up for the first flying lap. Even without the mistakes, I never got the feeling that he was compatible with the car like he used to be until Hungary or Spa. We know he definitely had problems even until Singapore and he has been saying they are improving the situation. They may feel the situation is very good on Friday (thing is they have very little opportunity to test these - two or three fresh softer tyre flying laps in a fortnight before the GP starts). But if they are not comfortably inside the zone and right on the limit, little bit of change in temperature, track conditions, traffic-related warm-up could totally offset the comfort zone. The situation was somewhat similar in the early part of last season, but it was quite okay in the later part. So, with time, I am pretty sure this can be sorted out.


 



#1006 eREr

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:31

The problem for RoGro is that there are no points awarded on Saturday.

Kimi and his future team mate both understand that and so focus on setting the car up for the race. Hence we see them appear to struggle in quali compared to their team mates then pop up on the podium on Sunday, which is why they are 2nd and 3rd in the WDC.

Kimi's currently struggling with the tyres over a single lap and so is focussing even more on Sunday.

No team conspiracy, no loss of form, just a simple fact.

 

From Germany RoGro performs very well also on Sundays, not just on Saturdays. P3 in Germany (where team order was applied in favour of Kimi), P6 in Hungary with a really strong race pace (but some controversial penalties dropped him back, podium finish was possible), then 2 races (Belgium, Italy) where the E21 underperformed in hands of both drivers, 2 P8s for Gro. Then Singapore where without the engine failure another podium finish was in the cards for him (P2 or P3), in Korea and Japan he was on the podium 2 times (P3).

 

So he collected almost all realistically available points and performed at similar level compared to his highly ranked WDC team mate. So this statement that he performs only on Saturdays is simply not true in the second half of this year.

 

And keep in mind Kimi was very lucky in recent races with safety cars, penalties (drive throughs for others) and lots of retirements while he was driving really well, no question about this.



#1007 Alburaq

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:45

Some of my posts disappeared so...

Yes. Gro is fast since Bahrain where they solved his kers mapping proplems and he's consistent since Monaco. He did very few mistakes since. The team didnt help him much because in many qualies and races he didnt get all the new updates compared to Raikkonen (but that didnt hamper him much; example: Germany and Hungary) and his car lacked reliability. He lacked some luck in few occasions too. Obviously the ones who say he was underperforming or say that GRO has ''suddenly'' become fast, have a superficial view on F1 or are biased.
His race/long distance pace has always been close to Raikkonens, which is a reference in that area, from winter testing 2012.

Now with the new tires which suit him well and an equal car to Raikkonen's (they are running the same updates since Spa) and a reasonably reliable car (he lost a podium in Singapore though, due to technical problems), he shows his real level. 

Raikkonen has problems with the new tires. He and Permane say qualy and front tires are the problem. But race pace is obviously still very good. 

Edited by Alburaq, 16 October 2013 - 10:52.


#1008 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:02

No shame in getting beaten when your teammate is doing an excellent job. And Räikkönen´s being beaten recently. His Sunday advantage is nowhere near big enough to bridge the deficit he has on Saturday in a normal race. His turn to keep working and try to solve his Saturday problem.

 

But no, the post above makes no sense. He hasn´t been close in race pace most of the time in these two years (he was close here and there but not regulary), and he hasn´t performed too well this season till recently. He stepped his game up in the end though (I´d say since half season on this year), so well done and let´s hope he can keep this level in the future for his own sake.


Edited by Skinnyguy, 16 October 2013 - 11:03.


#1009 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 13:17

Grosjean and Lotus are a funny pair. How many times have we heard them say they had the pace to win this year? I'm blessed with friends that make interesting observations. Here's another one.

 

Romain Grosjean and Lotus:

-Bahrain GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-German GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-Hungary GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-Singapore GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-Korea GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

 

Then comes Grosjean's big chance with the cards all stacked in his favor.

-Japan GP: "WE DID NOT HAVE THE PACE TO WIN"

 

That's convenient. Can you blame me for scratching my head?



#1010 PNSD

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 14:04

Well if you watched Suzuka at all you would have realized that was actually the truth.

 

In Bahrain it came down to strategy. 

Hungry came down to losing his cool and being caught up in traffic once again. Form suggests he would have at least gave Lewis a good run (However I couldn't see anyone but Lewis winning that!)

Singapore... He really say that ?!

Korea, likewise? 

 

You've left me scratching my head im afraid.



#1011 santababy

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 14:11

Grosjean and Lotus are a funny pair. How many times have we heard them say they had the pace to win this year? I'm blessed with friends that make interesting observations. Here's another one.
 
Romain Grosjean and Lotus:
-Bahrain GP: "I/we had the pace to win"
-German GP: "I/we had the pace to win"
-Hungary GP: "I/we had the pace to win"
-Singapore GP: "I/we had the pace to win"
-Korea GP: "I/we had the pace to win"
 
Then comes Grosjean's big chance with the cards all stacked in his favor.
-Japan GP: "WE DID NOT HAVE THE PACE TO WIN"
 
That's convenient. Can you blame me for scratching my head?



Of course GRO/Lotus have to say that otherwise the new golden boy will look silly to miss out on a potential win.

#1012 Radion

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 14:38

Well if you watched Suzuka at all you would have realized that was actually the truth.

 

In Bahrain it came down to strategy. 

Hungry came down to losing his cool and being caught up in traffic once again. Form suggests he would have at least gave Lewis a good run (However I couldn't see anyone but Lewis winning that!)

Singapore... He really say that ?!

Korea, likewise? 

 

You've left me scratching my head im afraid.

No, if you watched suzuka carefully, you'd know that's nonsense.

RedBull were nursing their tyres, go listen to their radio during the first/second stint, advising their drivers to leave a two second gap to the car in front in order not to hurt the tyres too much.



#1013 Cool Beans

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 16:28

Seems like all it takes for Romain is to finish ahead once in two years and he's beating Kimi. 



#1014 skyfolker

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 17:55

From Germany RoGro performs very well also on Sundays, not just on Saturdays. P3 in Germany (where team order was applied in favour of Kimi), P6 in Hungary with a really strong race pace (but some controversial penalties dropped him back, podium finish was possible), then 2 races (Belgium, Italy) where the E21 underperformed in hands of both drivers, 2 P8s for Gro. Then Singapore where without the engine failure another podium finish was in the cards for him (P2 or P3), in Korea and Japan he was on the podium 2 times (P3).

 

So he collected almost all realistically available points and performed at similar level compared to his highly ranked WDC team mate. So this statement that he performs only on Saturdays is simply not true in the second half of this year.

 

And keep in mind Kimi was very lucky in recent races with safety cars, penalties (drive throughs for others) and lots of retirements while he was driving really well, no question about this.

Well,not exactly,things are a lot different than what you're trying to make them look:only reason why Raikkonen was behind Grosjean at Nurburgring was stupid strategy,and he would have overtaken Grosjean even without team order,in Hungary Grosjean fully deserved his penalty,if not for ovetaking Massa then for crowding Button,Kimi's E21 didn't underperform at Spa,unless you call brake failure underperforming(he overtook Grosjean on track,made few other overtakes and was gaining positions until he retired),at Monza he was unlucky at the start,pace wise he was the closest to Vettel,in Singapore and Korea Raikkonen's races were compromised because of the gualifying issues(back injury,damaged front wing),and he was definitely faster driver during the race in Korea.Only time one could say that Grosjean did better job was Suzuka and even there,it's not so clear cut who was better in the race because once Raikkonen was in clean air,he was faster.

New tyres obviously are not to Raikkonen's liking,but even with those Grosjean is still quite behind performance wise,and talking about Raikkonen as lucky is plain ridiculous,since Suzuka was the first trouble free weekend for him after the summer break.



#1015 Gorma

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 18:05

Seems like all it takes for Romain is to finish ahead once in two years and he's beating Kimi. 

Every time Romain is ahead of Kimi we get the same thing. Romain is faster, Romain is beating Kimi, Kimi is just lucky, Romain is better in qualy and can match race pace...

 

Still:

 

Qualy
Kimi - 21 Romain - 15

Races

Kimi - 28 Romain - 6



#1016 Raikkonen94

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 18:24

Every time Romain is ahead of Kimi we get the same thing. Romain is faster, Romain is beating Kimi, Kimi is just lucky, Romain is better in qualy and can match race pace...

 

Still:

 

Qualy
Kimi - 21 Romain - 15

Races

Kimi - 28 Romain - 6

 

I remember some same quotes too after Canada 2012 where Grosjean finished second and Raikkonen all the way down in 8th. Or after Valencia 2012 when he had to retire when he could have won. Surely Grosjean's improved compared to last year and with these tyres he might outqualify Raikkonen the remainder of the year. But why all these opportunistic reactions from "experts" and calling him a Raikkonen beater or the right person to lead the team when you haven't even scored half of the points your teammate has?



#1017 sopa

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 20:21

I agree that Autosport blew things out of proportion, when they said Grosjean is now a Raikkonen beater. Even if Grosjean's general median performance level has increased over time, he is still not a top5 driver on the grid, something which Raikkonen comfortably is. We need a greater sample size if we want to consider him close there. Sounds like Rosberg was considered a match to Hamilton after his Monaco win. However, this time I am prepared to add Grosjean into the annual top ten driver ranking list we get after the end of each season.



#1018 DeLoreanFan

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:19

In Korea Raikkonen was the fastest in Q2. I did not have time to look into the 'whys'. Does anyone know? The sports commentators from the channel I was watching (American) were excited about it, they went on to say the last time Raikkonen was the fastest in a qualifying session which I forgot, I am not being ironic, I don't remember what they said --you gotta love them; they always have stats ready at hand to inform you.

 

OT

I still can't believe Permane's comment about being annoyed by Kimi's podium. I can't help but wonder hell would break loose if a senior engineer from Ferrari or Mercedes or any other team would say this after a podium from their drivers. Oh, I know, they would never say such thing. I don't care he is leaving the team, I am sure they want/need 2nd place in the WCC.  


Edited by DeLoreanFan, 17 October 2013 - 05:23.


#1019 DeLoreanFan

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:39

I remember some same quotes too after Canada 2012 where Grosjean finished second and Raikkonen all the way down in 8th. Or after Valencia 2012 when he had to retire when he could have won. Surely Grosjean's improved compared to last year and with these tyres he might outqualify Raikkonen the remainder of the year. But why all these opportunistic reactions from "experts" and calling him a Raikkonen beater or the right person to lead the team when you haven't even scored half of the points your teammate has?

My answer to your question is that these "experts" have their own agenda and biases. And because of that I gave up on waiting for these "experts" to once and for all recognize Raikkonen's terrific driving abilities which deserves to be among the best.


Edited by DeLoreanFan, 17 October 2013 - 06:10.


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#1020 eREr

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 13:51

Well,not exactly,things are a lot different than what you're trying to make them look:only reason why Raikkonen was behind Grosjean at Nurburgring was stupid strategy,and he would have overtaken Grosjean even without team order,in Hungary Grosjean fully deserved his penalty,if not for ovetaking Massa then for crowding Button,Kimi's E21 didn't underperform at Spa,unless you call brake failure underperforming(he overtook Grosjean on track,made few other overtakes and was gaining positions until he retired),at Monza he was unlucky at the start,pace wise he was the closest to Vettel,in Singapore and Korea Raikkonen's races were compromised because of the gualifying issues(back injury,damaged front wing),and he was definitely faster driver during the race in Korea.Only time one could say that Grosjean did better job was Suzuka and even there,it's not so clear cut who was better in the race because once Raikkonen was in clean air,he was faster.

New tyres obviously are not to Raikkonen's liking,but even with those Grosjean is still quite behind performance wise,and talking about Raikkonen as lucky is plain ridiculous,since Suzuka was the first trouble free weekend for him after the summer break.

 

Any proof that without the team order Kimi could overtake Grosjean or you just guessing? Kimi was not definitely faster than Gro, with aggressive defending Gro could keep P2 without the team order I think. Kimi was not as quick in the last stint as you think. Hungary: Gro had 42 faster laps than Kimi (42 vs 28), without the penalty Gro could have finished in front of Kimi. Spa: Grosjean was on a slower 1 stop strategy, so you can not compare the 2 drivers as Kimi had a dnf there with 2 stop strategy. The E21 was not great at Spa, the team confirmed this, same goes for Monza. Kimi's pace in Monza is misleading. He swapped to the better race tyres in lap 1, that's why he looked quicker than the others. The others had to use the fragile and used softer qualy tyres in the first stint and they had to use the harder one for a much longer stint.

 

Singapore: Gro was the quicker one also until the engine failure, Korea: the same here, Kimi was not the faster one, without the SC Kimi could finish miles behind (and after the SC Gro's mistake helped him to grab P2, not Kimi's pure speed advance). The number of quicker laps (33 vs 22 for Gro) also don't indicate that Kimi was the faster one there. Suzuka: no question.

 

So I would say Gro is very close to Kimi since Germany also on Sundays while I agree Kimi is still the better one and I also wouldn't say that Gro beats Kimi regularly on race days. But to state that Gro is far away from Kimi is simply not true. Gro is better on Saturdays, Kimi is better on Sundays, but in general both of them more or less deliver those results which are realistic with the E21.


Edited by eREr, 17 October 2013 - 13:51.


#1021 Gorma

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 15:19

Any proof that without the team order Kimi could overtake Grosjean or you just guessing? Kimi was not definitely faster than Gro, with aggressive defending Gro could keep P2 without the team order I think. Kimi was not as quick in the last stint as you think. Hungary: Gro had 42 faster laps than Kimi (42 vs 28), without the penalty Gro could have finished in front of Kimi. Spa: Grosjean was on a slower 1 stop strategy, so you can not compare the 2 drivers as Kimi had a dnf there with 2 stop strategy. The E21 was not great at Spa, the team confirmed this, same goes for Monza. Kimi's pace in Monza is misleading. He swapped to the better race tyres in lap 1, that's why he looked quicker than the others. The others had to use the fragile and used softer qualy tyres in the first stint and they had to use the harder one for a much longer stint.

 

Singapore: Gro was the quicker one also until the engine failure, Korea: the same here, Kimi was not the faster one, without the SC Kimi could finish miles behind (and after the SC Gro's mistake helped him to grab P2, not Kimi's pure speed advance). The number of quicker laps (33 vs 22 for Gro) also don't indicate that Kimi was the faster one there. Suzuka: no question.

 

So I would say Gro is very close to Kimi since Germany also on Sundays while I agree Kimi is still the better one and I also wouldn't say that Gro beats Kimi regularly on race days. But to state that Gro is far away from Kimi is simply not true. Gro is better on Saturdays, Kimi is better on Sundays, but in general both of them more or less deliver those results which are realistic with the E21.

 

Comparing the number of faster laps is pointless. One can be marginally faster on most of the laps, but lose massively on a dozen laps and that makes a difference. That is what happening in races for a couple of years if you had been paying attention. A driver can a big lead, but lose because his tyres don't last. 



#1022 boldhakka

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 15:58

. Gro is better on Saturdays.


Is he now? One swallow does not make a summer.

#1023 skyfolker

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 21:34

Any proof that without the team order Kimi could overtake Grosjean or you just guessing? Kimi was not definitely faster than Gro, with aggressive defending Gro could keep P2 without the team order I think. Kimi was not as quick in the last stint as you think. Hungary: Gro had 42 faster laps than Kimi (42 vs 28), without the penalty Gro could have finished in front of Kimi. Spa: Grosjean was on a slower 1 stop strategy, so you can not compare the 2 drivers as Kimi had a dnf there with 2 stop strategy. The E21 was not great at Spa, the team confirmed this, same goes for Monza. Kimi's pace in Monza is misleading. He swapped to the better race tyres in lap 1, that's why he looked quicker than the others. The others had to use the fragile and used softer qualy tyres in the first stint and they had to use the harder one for a much longer stint.

 

Singapore: Gro was the quicker one also until the engine failure, Korea: the same here, Kimi was not the faster one, without the SC Kimi could finish miles behind (and after the SC Gro's mistake helped him to grab P2, not Kimi's pure speed advance). The number of quicker laps (33 vs 22 for Gro) also don't indicate that Kimi was the faster one there. Suzuka: no question.

 

So I would say Gro is very close to Kimi since Germany also on Sundays while I agree Kimi is still the better one and I also wouldn't say that Gro beats Kimi regularly on race days. But to state that Gro is far away from Kimi is simply not true. Gro is better on Saturdays, Kimi is better on Sundays, but in general both of them more or less deliver those results which are realistic with the E21.

In Germany,Kimi was on better tyres when he overtook Grosjean,so no guessing here,he gained 1,3 seconds on Grosjean in 2 laps after his pit stop,so i would say that he was significantly faster in that stint.Comparing faster laps is ridiculous when drivers are most of the time stuck behind slower cars,so that doesn't prove anything regarding pace.At Spa Raikkonen overtook Grosjean on the first lap,it's a bit stupid to use strategy as an exuse in that situation,especially since you don't know on what strategy Raikkonen would be if there were no brake issues(even Permane said that one stop strategy was "the right thing to do").E21 was very good at Monza,it's not that clear which tyre was better for the race,that may depend on the car,Raikkonen had advantage of having new mediums in his second stint while others were on used mediums,but what remains as a fact is that after first lap pit stop Raikkonen was 37,5 seconds behind Vettel,and that gap increased only by a second at the finish of the race.For Singapore, I will repeat once more that it's pointless to compare driver's pace when one of them is almost all the time stuck in traffic,so Grosjean being faster there is just your wishful thinking,it'similar for Korea,only Raikkonen overtook Grosjean there on track,having 6 laps older tyres,and after that Grosjean couldn't reduce the gap,he couldn't even get into DRS range until last 4-5 laps when Raikkonen's tyres were completely shot,comparing who had more faster laps during entire GP doesn't mean a thing here since this was direct duel,if this is not sound proof of better pace,I don't know what is.



#1024 NexusIcon

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 21:45

Kimi has destroyed Romain over their time together, that is undeniable. To the eye, Romain has made a better fist of things in the back half of this season - since the tyre change, more specifically - but someone posted up the points at this stage last year which put even that in doubt.

By season's end I reckon Romain will have about the same percentage of points to Kimi that he had last year but hopefully he's become more consistent and will continue on an upward trend into next year.

I can't help liking the guy and I'm looking forward to supporting him at Lotus next year while Kimi and Fernando are duking it out at the Scuderia.

#1025 Mauseri

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 22:40

Is he now? One swallow does not make a summer.

On total counts I guess Kimi is still ahead, and by the total sum of time gaps even safely in front...



#1026 Dolph

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 22:58

Is he now? One swallow does not make a summer.

 

I'm sure Grosjean is ahead in 2013 according to Autosport calculation method (compared to session winner). So no one swallow here. More like season long thing.
 



#1027 sennafan24

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 23:11

Romain seems like he might be finally coming into his own, I think its consistency that has been his problem. The talent is there as we have seen some inspired drives in certain periods, but he seems to go off the boil for long periods of time. I believe consistency is achieved by hard work, and Romain may have finally found a system that works for him, and matured as a driver through experience.

 

I am hoping the Romain we have seen since Singapore is present from now on, as I believe he has the talent to do very well. 

 

3 race weekends in a row I have observed that he has outperformed Kimi, even if the stats do not fully reflect that. As said above, we have seen Romain rally before, then fall back. But this time I have a feeling with Lotus behind him and added confidence he could be entering his peak.



#1028 santababy

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 01:28

With the whole team behind him, Grosjean is not allowed to fail.
They want him to be the new no.1 at Lotus & will do everything for him for the remaining races.
They have to show to their new partner they make a Quantum leap.

#1029 eREr

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 09:07

In Germany,Kimi was on better tyres when he overtook Grosjean,so no guessing here,he gained 1,3 seconds on Grosjean in 2 laps after his pit stop,so i would say that he was significantly faster in that stint.Comparing faster laps is ridiculous when drivers are most of the time stuck behind slower cars,so that doesn't prove anything regarding pace.At Spa Raikkonen overtook Grosjean on the first lap,it's a bit stupid to use strategy as an exuse in that situation,especially since you don't know on what strategy Raikkonen would be if there were no brake issues(even Permane said that one stop strategy was "the right thing to do").E21 was very good at Monza,it's not that clear which tyre was better for the race,that may depend on the car,Raikkonen had advantage of having new mediums in his second stint while others were on used mediums,but what remains as a fact is that after first lap pit stop Raikkonen was 37,5 seconds behind Vettel,and that gap increased only by a second at the finish of the race.For Singapore, I will repeat once more that it's pointless to compare driver's pace when one of them is almost all the time stuck in traffic,so Grosjean being faster there is just your wishful thinking,it'similar for Korea,only Raikkonen overtook Grosjean there on track,having 6 laps older tyres,and after that Grosjean couldn't reduce the gap,he couldn't even get into DRS range until last 4-5 laps when Raikkonen's tyres were completely shot,comparing who had more faster laps during entire GP doesn't mean a thing here since this was direct duel,if this is not sound proof of better pace,I don't know what is.

 

To catching up and to make an overtake are two different things. Just read through your own comment: you said Kimi's pass was formality in Germany with his fresher and softer tyre, while in Korea Grosjean was not able to pass in similar situation. But there's a real difference in the 2 cases: in one case there was a team order applied (no real racing) and in the other case it was not (real racing).

 

Faster laps: they are not alone on the track and Kimi put himself to those positions behind slower cars with bad qualies. Some flashing lap times in free air doesn't mean anything for race distance. Without lot's of luck (and Gro's engine failure) Kimi would have finished far away behind Gro in Singapore, Korea and Japan (in Japan it happened, he finished ~37s behind). Who is the quicker? Who drops some quick laps or who finishes the race distance in a shorter time frame? I would vote for the second one. Spa: don't care what Permane said about strategy: just check out how the 2 stoppers performed on that race. They were coming up in the order, while Gro was falling back with his 1 stop strategy. We don't know Kimi's strategy, so we don't know what was happening.

 

Monza: so you don't know which tyre was the better for the race. Then the team randomly bolted the medium ones 2 times on Kimi's car, right? Last year in Bahrain how was Kimi able to grab P2 from P11? Answer: with fresh tyre.

 

Points collected in the first 8 races: 98 vs 26

Points collected in the last 7 races: 79 vs 61

 

These numbers clearly indicate the trends. In the second half of the year they are close to each other in the points and also in the performances (I agree Kimi still has the edge, no question about this) and that was my only point while you are trying to state the opposite which is simply not true.



#1030 Jon83

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:52

Grosjean and Lotus are a funny pair. How many times have we heard them say they had the pace to win this year? I'm blessed with friends that make interesting observations. Here's another one.

 

Romain Grosjean and Lotus:

-Bahrain GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-German GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-Hungary GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-Singapore GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

-Korea GP: "I/we had the pace to win"

 

Then comes Grosjean's big chance with the cards all stacked in his favor.

-Japan GP: "WE DID NOT HAVE THE PACE TO WIN"

 

That's convenient. Can you blame me for scratching my head?

 

I think Grosjean would have won in Germany had it not been for the safety car after Bianchi's car went walkabout.

 

Not really sure he could have done much more in Japan. He got the maximum out of the car and was beaten only by Red Bull who were streets ahead of everyone pretty much.



#1031 skyfolker

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 14:54

To catching up and to make an overtake are two different things. Just read through your own comment: you said Kimi's pass was formality in Germany with his fresher and softer tyre, while in Korea Grosjean was not able to pass in similar situation. But there's a real difference in the 2 cases: in one case there was a team order applied (no real racing) and in the other case it was not (real racing).

Of course that catching up and overtaking are two different matters,but only real difference is that in Germany Raikkonen caught up to Grosjean in 2 laps,while in Korea Grosjean wasn't catching up at all as long as Raikkonen's tyres were in reasonable shape(even though Grosjean was on fresher tyres).
 

Faster laps: they are not alone on the track and Kimi put himself to those positions behind slower cars with bad qualies. Some flashing lap times in free air doesn't mean anything for race distance. Without lot's of luck (and Gro's engine failure) Kimi would have finished far away behind Gro in Singapore, Korea and Japan (in Japan it happened, he finished ~37s behind). Who is the quicker? Who drops some quick laps or who finishes the race distance in a shorter time frame? I would vote for the second one. Spa: don't care what Permane said about strategy: just check out how the 2 stoppers performed on that race. They were coming up in the order, while Gro was falling back with his 1 stop strategy. We don't know Kimi's strategy, so we don't know what was happening.

If you haven't noticed,my previous post was about race pace,which is not directly affected by bad qualifying(only Raikkonen's bad qualifying that was fault of his own was Japan),in other words,bad qualifying will affect final result,but that doesn't mean that it's necessarily indication of slower race pace,only time when it is possible to compare drivers' race pace is when drivers aren't close trailing other cars,and others circumstances are similar(tyres,fuel),finishing ahead doesn't have to mean that that driver was genuinly quicker in the race since the final result is strongly influenced by starting position,i.e., qualifying.Talking about driver being lucky is absurd when he had 4 troublesome races in a row,neither of these because of his own fault.
Regardin Belgium GP,it's you who started to talk about strategy,if you don't like what Permane is saying,your problem,only what matters is that Raikkonen overtook Grosjean on track,in similar conditions,even without DRS,fair and square(whatever strategy was,it didn't make difference at that point),what indicates much better race pace.
 

Monza: so you don't know which tyre was the better for the race. Then the team randomly bolted the medium ones 2 times on Kimi's car, right? Last year in Bahrain how was Kimi able to grab P2 from P11? Answer: with fresh tyre.

You said that Raikkonen's (medium) tyres were "better race tyres" as it was better race tyre for everybody,and that's the reason why Raikkonen looked quicker,but you can not know which tyre was better for different cars,since most of the cars were obliged to use hards for bigger part of the race,obviously mediums suited Raikkonen better,but among 4 cars that went for 2 pit stop race,2 of them prefered mediums and 2 prefered hards,and as I've already written in previous post,only advantage Raikkonen had was having fresh mediums while others were on used mediums,for one stint,and much of that advantage was lost because bigger part of that stint Raikkonen spent in traffic.
 

Points collected in the first 8 races: 98 vs 26

Points collected in the last 7 races: 79 vs 61


These numbers clearly indicate the trends. In the second half of the year they are close to each other in the points and also in the performances (I agree Kimi still has the edge, no question about this) and that was my only point while you are trying to state the opposite which is simply not true.

Relying on points to prove something that only regards drivers doesn't make sense if you ignore context,call it trend or whatever,unless everything is considered,it's futile.



#1032 Oldie

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:09

What a race, both disappointing and satisfying.

As it was unfortunate mishap by Lotus/Gro duo in quali, it was lucky that it happened in this track with these tyres.
Soft tyres, which were used in quali were shot in few laps. Which helped Gro with his fresh set of soft tyres, who were able to drive long stint with them. Taking nothing away from Grosjean, the race unfolded pretty optimum way for him, and he did solid to use it. He may have had many cars to overtake, but many of them were made with strategy.

For Kimi, after usual difficulties in quali with P6, he had ok start but the little happening with Webber, whose car jumped from the kerbs made him to have awful exit from the turn which Hulkenberg used for his advantage. For sure Lotus were faster then Sauber, but not in the right places, not to mention Hulkenberg not being the easiest one to overtake. In the recent past there were some known champions wasting most of the race behind him.
The long first pitstop didn't help, but it was necessary because of checking the damage on rear from Webber incident. (According to Lotus twitter)

Kimi was again faster in the race pace, to the point where his tyres were "non-existent". He was lapping faster times than Gro (when in the free air) with older tyres.
I thought Lotus would have learned from China 2012. It is easy by hindsight, but Pirelli gave recommendation of max 35 laps for the medium and they tried to do what.. ~50? I don't know at what point they changed the strategy but they were doing planned second stop in the middle of the race as Kimi requested front wing adjustment for next set of tyres.

As RB is untouchable, Lotus should aim for 2nd in WCC. but the lack of straight line speed, even with DRS is an issue.
Both drivers pretty much did everything they could.

#1033 krobinson

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:11

I thought Lotus would have learned from China 2012. It is easy by hindsight, but Pirelli gave recommendation of max 35 laps for the medium and they tried to do what.. ~50?

Indeed. What were they thinking? Everyone could see he should have pitted at around lap 43-45. Then he could have pushed others to use their tyres more and would have had no tyre issues himself. It is like Lotus has hired 3 bums from the street to do their strategy.



#1034 artista

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:14

Not that it is very important, but today was game, set and match for Räikkönen in the Kimi vs Romain scorecard.

 

If I'm not mistaken -please, somebody check it- Grosjean can't catch Räikkönen any longer in race, qualifying and points.



#1035 Spillage

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:17

Top drive from RG today  :up:

 

Three consecutive podiums seems to confirm what I suspect last year; he doesn't and never did have a spatial awareness issue. What he had was a confidence issue. At the time I thought Lotus were mishandling it and bollocking him when he needed an arm around the shoulder, but one cannot deny the progress he's made this season. Great stuff.



#1036 marcoferrari

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:43

Congrats to Romain, excellent drive from 17th place on the grid!



#1037 Trust

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 13:22

Congrats, he had beaten Kimi today even though his pace wasn't as good as Kimi's. But he made his strategy work and completely deserved 3rd place.



#1038 swerved

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 15:13

Official standings after the Indian GP

Qualy: Kimi - 10 Romain - 6

Races: Kimi - 11 Romain - 5

Wins: Kimi - 1 Romain - 0

Podiums: Kimi - 8 Romain - 5



2nd Places Kimi - 6 Romain - 0



3rd Places Kimi - 1 Romain - 5

Points: Kimi - 183 Romain - 102

Standings Kimi 3rd - Romain 7th













Scores as Team mates





Wins

Kimi - 2 Romain - 0


Points

Kimi - 390 Romain - 198


Podiums

Kimi - 15 Romain - 8



2nd Places Kimi - 9 Romain 1



3rd Places Kimi - 3 Romain 7


Qualy



Kimi - 22 Romain - 15



Races

Kimi - 28 Romain - 7

 

 

 

The honours are split this weekend, Kimi taking the qualy and Romain the race.

 

Good race from Grosjean, I wasn't paying a lot of attention to his race, or was it that the race director thought that replays were more important than decent drives, or maybe it was just me, his race seemed pretty anonymous, which it shouldn't have been going from 17th to 3rd but i dont recall seeing much of it.

 

Good race from Kimi as well, in spite of the teams efforts, i'm at a bit of a loss to be honest, With Kimi leaving the team its only fair, right, and proper that they should switch the focus to Romain, but today i got the distinct impression that not only did they do that, they went further, and further than was fair.

 

Ever since Kimi went to Lotus one or two have alluded to conspiracies of differing kinds, mostly about Boullier favouring Romain to the detriment of Kimi, and i've always scoffed at them, in my view Boullier and Lotus as a whole have always been fair with kimi, today they stopped being fair, and whilst i'm not one for ifs buts and could haves i have no doubt in my own mind that Kimi's race today was affected by the team in a manner that i think was pre-determined, Kravitz said something part way through the race, i can't recall exactly what it was, but paraphrased he indicated how convenient it would be for Lotus to get Grosjean on the podium as it would in some way deflect from their mistake yesterday,  i'm pretty sure it was way before Romain passed Kimi.

 

Anyway, i know there's a thread about Kimis relationship with Lotus so maybe i'll gather my thoughts and post something in there, Lotus have said they're disappointed in Kimi today, for whatever its worth i bet they're not as disappointed with him as i am with them.

 

ETA: With all of the above said i dont think anyone can take anything away from Romain today, he got the job done.


Edited by swerved, 27 October 2013 - 15:14.


#1039 kimister

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 22:05

I didn't want to post it in other topic since then it would be off-optic, so 

 

just to clear the ambiguity, here is the quali performance of Kimi in comparison to Romain's, from F1fanatic ; http://www.f1fanatic...son-form-guide/

 

A positive time means the driver was slower than his team mate, a negative time means he was faster, so: 

 

Kimi was always faster than Romain until Hungary (10th race of the season )where tyre structure change occured. 

Then, the next race ,in Italy, they introduced the LWB car since team claimed it was the faster one in comparison to previous version of E21. Though Kimi admitted he struggled to find an optimized set-up with LWB , team has stuck with it since Gro suddenly fit perfectly to the new combo of LWB +revised tyres and  it would be highly costly for Lotus to modify the car according to Kimi's preferences after that point (at that time Kimi has also announced as new Ferrari driver for 2014, so to be honest,there was no point for Lotus to please Kimi since Gro was performing great after all. Most probably, Boullier was just glad Kimi still had brought good points necessary to fight in second position in WCC ). However, Kimi was still outstanding during races. Then , we know the radio and salary issue have raised and since they needed Kimi for big points, they somehow agreed to bring SWB and Kimi said it suited more to his driving style and felt comfortable with it and he immediately showed great quali performance once again   ;) 

 

                                                   Kimi Raikkonen  team mate

 

Qualified ahead                                    11                       6

Average qualifying gap                      -0.299s                  -

Finished race ahead                             8                        4

Laps spent ahead                               485                    346


Edited by kimister, 30 November 2013 - 22:07.