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Another UK 1950/60s speed event for identification


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#1 Charles Helps

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:28

The original of this photo came from Ted Walker of Ferret Fotographics and neither he nor I know where or when it might have been taken.

There are some fence like posts and possibly a girder bridge in the background and I have included zooms of these to help.

I am hoping that identification of the venue and date will help with identification of the cars, particularly the two Lotus Mk VIs in the foreground.

Posted Image

Posted Image
Right hand top - fence posts and possibly estuary? Rear of a TR and a ?

Posted Image
Left hand top, girder structure top right? More water? Vintage looking green car above the roof of the Austin Seven.

Any thoughts?

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#2 Stephen W

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:31

Channel Islands perhaps?



#3 mikeC

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:51

Channel Islands perhaps?


Probably not: the Ruby has a mainland registration number. If it was a local car it would have a J or G Jersey/Guernsey number, and I cannot see anyone shipping it over just for the event...

#4 GMACKIE

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:17

Green car, #41, is a Swallow Doretti. :up:

#5 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:37

Posted Image


Looks like a military building on the left (airfield control tower?).
The only place I recall that was situated a bit like this, on a hill overlooking a fishing village, is Talbenny, but I went there early 1990s when it was just used for rallying and far more overgrown an unkempt

#6 bradbury west

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 13:10

As a long shot I thought of Oddicombe, but the cars are not new enough for events starting in early 60s, perhaps. Otherwise, even longer shot, Oliver's Mount.
Roger Lund

#7 kayemod

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 14:46

Probably not: the Ruby has a mainland registration number. If it was a local car it would have a J or G Jersey/Guernsey number, and I cannot see anyone shipping it over just for the event...


No, Guernsey registrations are just a number, nothing more than that. Jersey ones are a number with the letter J in front of them.


#8 Stephen W

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 15:00

As a long shot I thought of Oddicombe, but the cars are not new enough for events starting in early 60s, perhaps. Otherwise, even longer shot, Oliver's Mount.
Roger Lund


Far too open for either Oddicombe or Oliver's Mount.

More likely to be a sprint I would have thought rather than a hillclimb.

#9 malcolm6

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 15:32

Look to me to be sand dunes in the background - was thinking a Trial of some kind but then 41 appears to have torno cover over passengers side

#10 Pete Stowe

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 15:40

The building, concrete road and fencing look as if it could be a military camp or airfield. With water in the background might it be one of the old sprint venues in the Portsmouth area?

#11 Dutchy

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 18:31

The original of this photo came from Ted Walker of Ferret Fotographics and neither he nor I know where or when it might have been taken.

There are some fence like posts and possibly a girder bridge in the background and I have included zooms of these to help.

I am hoping that identification of the venue and date will help with identification of the cars, particularly the two Lotus Mk VIs in the foreground.



Posted Image
Left hand top, girder structure top right? More water? Vintage looking green car above the roof of the Austin Seven.

Any thoughts?

The Vintage looking green car looks grey to me and I would suggest its a Bentley - possibly GG McDonald's modified 4 1/2

Edited by Dutchy, 19 December 2012 - 18:32.


#12 RS2000

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 21:34

The building, concrete road and fencing look as if it could be a military camp or airfield. With water in the background might it be one of the old sprint venues in the Portsmouth area?


Best guess so far I think. Gosport Speed Trials (actually at what became RNAY Fleetlands)?

#13 Charles Helps

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:16

I don't think it is Talbenny as a meander on my PC round the Pembrokeshire roads using Google Street View suggests that the airfield is too high above the sea.

The Gosport Speed Trials would certainly seem to be a possibility. Jon Derisley competed there three times in his Lotus Mk 6 and I have photocopies of the pages with him on.

1956, April 29th
I don't have the page with Nos 27/8 but John Derisley (53) is in Class 6 Sports Cars 1101 - 1500 cc and No 41 is in the same class: R.E. Owen in an MG TD

1956, September 2nd
No 41 is Robinson in an AC Ace, 1991 cc. Wrong car but this is interesting because the engine capacity for the two Triumph TR2s (D.R. Good and M.R.C. Parr) entered is also 1991 cc. The latter engine was also used in the Swallow Doretti.
Jon Derisley is racing as No 30 in his 1172 cc car in the 1101 - 1500 cc class. There are no entries in the Sports Cars up to 1100 cc class but numbers are provided for 26, 27 and 28 and interestingly Jon has marked times in his programme for Nos 27 and 28.

1957, July 7th
No 41 is F Boyd in a 3.4 litre Jaguar in the Sports Cars 2,701 cc and over (or 1,501 cc s/c and over)
Jon Derisley and his friend D. Loveridge are sharing Jon's car using racing Nos 29 and 29A respectively suggesting that the organisers Gosport Automobile Club have switched to the A driver system for this meeting rather than the consecutive numbers shown on the first photo.

On the April '56 programme the venue is shown as Ferry Road, Eastney, Portsmouth and this seems to be on the south east side of Portsmouth where a ferry crosses to Hayling Island. I wondered whether this is where the sprint was always held?
Does anyone have a results sheet for the September 1956 meeting that might clear up the entries for 27 and 28?

Edited by Charles Helps, 20 December 2012 - 14:07.


#14 fuzzi

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 15:51

"Ferry Road follows the long spit of land that nearly encloses Eastney Lake, the shallow tidal bay on the west of Portsmouth Harbour and leads to the slipway from where the Hayling Island passenger ferry sailed." (Motorsport Explorer p103). As far as I know it was in use from July 1955 - September 1957.

The MOD owned Fort Cumberland is located on Ferry Road, at the time of the speed trials it was occupied by the Royal Marines and their establishment was on both side of the road, so it could easily be closed to the public. Hope that helps.

Edited by fuzzi, 21 December 2012 - 06:38.


#15 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 19:23

Just a long shot but what about New Brighton by Liverpool I remember going there in the early 60's with my father who did an event there in his TR3.

#16 Paul Parker

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 19:50

The original of this photo came from Ted Walker of Ferret Fotographics and neither he nor I know where or when it might have been taken.

There are some fence like posts and possibly a girder bridge in the background and I have included zooms of these to help.

I am hoping that identification of the venue and date will help with identification of the cars, particularly the two Lotus Mk VIs in the foreground.

Posted Image

Posted Image
Right hand top - fence posts and possibly estuary? Rear of a TR and a ?

Posted Image
Left hand top, girder structure top right? More water? Vintage looking green car above the roof of the Austin Seven.

Any thoughts?


No idea where it is but car no.41 is a Swallow Doretti.

#17 kayemod

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 20:01

Just a long shot but what about New Brighton by Liverpool I remember going there in the early 60's with my father who did an event there in his TR3.


I used to live near there, and the background doesn't look right for that area to me, I'd say that Portsmouth/Gosport is more likely. My original thoughts were Southport, but again the background is wrong.

#18 Macca

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 20:14

Almost certain it's Fort Cumberland, looking across to Hayling Island, and the white building is the Ferryboat Inn; there are girder bridges on both sides of the harbourmouth leading onto the pontoons where the ferry runs, and the dunes visible on both sides look familiar. (there are no dunes at Fleetlands)

Paul M

#19 GMACKIE

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 20:57

No idea where it is but car no.41 is a Swallow Doretti.

Glad you agree.....see post #4. :wave:


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#20 Charles Helps

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 22:04

I have asked a friend who has a Swallow Doretti and he is going to investigate with his Doretti clubmen to see if we can identify the Doretti and its driver.

I think that we are almost agreed that it's the Gosport Sprint at Fort Cumberland, Eastney. Any thoughts on the year?

#21 GMACKIE

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 22:14

It cannot be earlier than 1954, as that's when the Swallow Doretti was built.

#22 RCH

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:30

What is the saloon car, top right? Simca perhaps? Would have been rare at a UK venue at that time.

#23 GMACKIE

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:36

Could it be a Fiat 1400, perhaps?

#24 fuzzi

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:55

I have asked a friend who has a Swallow Doretti and he is going to investigate with his Doretti clubmen to see if we can identify the Doretti and its driver.

I think that we are almost agreed that it's the Gosport Sprint at Fort Cumberland, Eastney. Any thoughts on the year?


If it is Eastney (and it seems likely) then that was operational AFAIK from July 1955 - September 1957.

#25 Charles Helps

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:19

Thanks very much, Julian.

Here is a picture of Jon Derisley in his Lotus Mk VI at the Gosport Speed Trials on 2nd September 1956. Warm, shirtsleeves day for some and boats in the background. It may have been taken at the same meeting as the original photo in post #1.
Posted Image
Copyright - photographer unknown - photo from Derisley collection

The strap on the bonnet is to hold it down as Jon used to remove the nearside engine bay panel and fit long trumpets on the low mounted side draught carburettors. This panel held one end of the overcentre catch and its removal left the bonnet loose at the front.

Edited by Charles Helps, 21 December 2012 - 10:33.


#26 Pat Clarke

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:46

Is that the same car that is partially seen on the LH edge of the original post?

Pat

#27 bradbury west

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:46

What is the saloon car, top right? Simca perhaps? Would have been rare at a UK venue at that time.


That has puzzled me for a while. Not a Simca, wrong shape, too big for the FIAT 1400 or even 1900. It looks LHD. The roof dome and large rear quarters, plus the rear door windows rule out Riley Pathfinder/Wolseley 6/90 - 1953/57. The opening quarter vents on the rear doos made me thing American, but looking in the directory, the best I can offer is the ALFA Romeo 6C 2500 Berlina , from 1949/1950which allows for the longer wheelbase, the correct rear door window set up, and the rear door openin being ahead of the wheel arch.
I may be wrong, so any other offers?
Roger Lund

#28 Charles Helps

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 11:23

Is that the same car that is partially seen on the LH edge of the original post?

Pat

I haven't seen anything that tells me that it definitely isn't and I'd like it to be as it happens that I own it! Jon used to run with only one headlight and the car on the left in the original post has the mounting pillar for the headlight at the extreme left of the photo but no headlight. But before jumping to conclusions I'd like further proof. One of the difficulties at the moment is car #41 on 2/9/56 entered as an AC Ace but in the picture it's a Swallow Doretti.

#29 mikeC

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:07

What is the saloon car, top right? Simca perhaps? Would have been rare at a UK venue at that time.


I think you are all being too clever with this, it looks like an MG ZA Magnette to me.

#30 ChrisJson

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 13:40

I think you are all being too clever with this, it looks like an MG ZA Magnette to me.



No I don´t think it´s a Magnette.

Look at the coachwork above the rear wheel.
It´s much to straight for the Magnette and
the rear window seems to small also.


Christer

#31 bradbury west

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 14:31

I think you are all being too clever with this, it looks like an MG ZA Magnette to me.

Whatever it is it is not a ZA magnette, doors wrong, rear roof brow , C panel behind rear door too large every way, rear window wrong and too low, door handles wrong etc.
Like I say, I may be wrong,- not unknown- but it is a big car.
See link to Alfa 6C 2500.
http://www.passionea...rina-F2909.html
Any ideas?
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 21 December 2012 - 14:32.


#32 Paul Parker

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 14:32

Glad you agree.....see post #4. :wave:


Missed it whilst surfing but apologies for trying to steal your thunder albeit unintentionally.

Season's Greetings and all that.



#33 ChrisJson

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 15:29

See link to Alfa 6C 2500.
http://www.passionea...rina-F2909.html
Any ideas?
Roger Lund



No I don´t think that´s the one either.

Same problem with the rounded rear wheel arches.


Christer

#34 Stephen W

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:01

The Gosport Speed Trials would certainly seem to be a possibility. Jon Derisley competed there three times in his Lotus Mk 6 and I have photocopies of the pages with him on.

1956, April 29th
I don't have the page with Nos 27/8 but John Derisley (53) is in Class 6 Sports Cars 1101 - 1500 cc and No 41 is in the same class: R.E. Owen in an MG TD

1956, September 2nd
No 41 is Robinson in an AC Ace, 1991 cc. Wrong car but this is interesting because the engine capacity for the two Triumph TR2s (D.R. Good and M.R.C. Parr) entered is also 1991 cc. The latter engine was also used in the Swallow Doretti.
Jon Derisley is racing as No 30 in his 1172 cc car in the 1101 - 1500 cc class. There are no entries in the Sports Cars up to 1100 cc class but numbers are provided for 26, 27 and 28 and interestingly Jon has marked times in his programme for Nos 27 and 28.

1957, July 7th
No 41 is F Boyd in a 3.4 litre Jaguar in the Sports Cars 2,701 cc and over (or 1,501 cc s/c and over)
Jon Derisley and his friend D. Loveridge are sharing Jon's car using racing Nos 29 and 29A respectively suggesting that the organisers Gosport Automobile Club have switched to the A driver system for this meeting rather than the consecutive numbers shown on the first photo.

On the April '56 programme the venue is shown as Ferry Road, Eastney, Portsmouth and this seems to be on the south east side of Portsmouth where a ferry crosses to Hayling Island. I wondered whether this is where the sprint was always held?
Does anyone have a results sheet for the September 1956 meeting that might clear up the entries for 27 and 28?


"Ferry Road follows the long spit of land that nearly encloses Eastney Lake, the shallow tidal bay on the west of Portsmouth Harbour and leads to the slipway from where the Hayling Island passenger ferry sailed." (Motorsport Explorer p103). As far as I know it was in use from July 1955 - September 1957.

The MOD owned Fort Cumberland is located on Ferry Road, at the time of the speed trials it was occupied by the Royal Marines and their establishment was on both side of the road, so it could easily be closed to the public. Hope that helps.


In the 1956 Blue Book there are the following entries in the Fixture List:

Apr. 29 Gosport A.C. Restricted Sprint (Eastney)
July 1 Gosport A.C. Restricted Sprint (Eastney)
Sept. 2 Gosport A.C. Restricted Sprint (Eastney)

:wave:

#35 GMACKIE

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:18

What is the saloon car, top right? Simca perhaps? Would have been rare at a UK venue at that time.

How many guesses do we get?........ Is it a Kaiser?


#36 Terry Walker

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:21

Singer SM1500?

#37 RCH

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:36

How many guesses do we get?........ Is it a Kaiser?


Think you're right, that would have been a real rarity on these shores.

#38 kayemod

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:43

How many guesses do we get?........ Is it a Kaiser?


For me, the position of the door handles rules that out.

#39 Pete Stowe

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:36

In the 1956 Blue Book there are the following entries in the Fixture List:

Apr. 29 Gosport A.C. Restricted Sprint (Eastney)
July 1 Gosport A.C. Restricted Sprint (Eastney)
Sept. 2 Gosport A.C. Restricted Sprint (Eastney)


The Autosport report for the Gosport AC Speed Trials on 1st July 1956 included: "1172 Award: J Derisley (Lotus-Ford)", so that would appear to be an additional event that Jon competed in at Eastney.

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#40 Charles Helps

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 13:19

The Autosport report for the Gosport AC Speed Trials on 1st July 1956 included: "1172 Award: J Derisley (Lotus-Ford)", so that would appear to be an additional event that Jon competed in at Eastney.

Thanks very much, Pete. I didn't know about that one. Jon was competing at Shelsley Walsh the day before (Jun 30) and racing at Goodwood on the 7th July so a busy week. Do the other Autosport write-up (weather?) or results give any clues as to whether the original photo might have been taken at that meeting?

Motor Sport occasionally reported on the Gosport Speed Trials: DSJ on the September 26th event in the November 1954 issue and WB on the April 14th running in the May 1957 issue. Were there any reports of the Gosport AC 1956 events in MS? I can't find anything in the August '56 issue where the 1st July event might be expected to appear.

Who knows, our mystery saloon might appear in one of WB's road tests! 'Googling' the images that Alfa Romeo 2500 seems to have also been fitted with some very pretty special coach built bodies by the likes of Pinin Farina.

#41 ChrisJson

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 17:32

For me, the position of the door handles rules that out.



Why?

Look at the side view on this site:

http://www.arcar.org...azer-1947-19214

I think that´s a near perfect fit.


Christer



#42 Pete Stowe

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 19:10

Thanks very much, Pete. I didn't know about that one. Jon was competing at Shelsley Walsh the day before (Jun 30) and racing at Goodwood on the 7th July so a busy week. Do the other Autosport write-up (weather?) or results give any clues as to whether the original photo might have been taken at that meeting?

For 1st July Autosport just listed the award winners, but no times. The report for 2nd September mentioned that it was "a fine day" but with "a strong breeze blowing against the cars", but no helpful clues that I can see.