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'Racing Legends' - BBC2 - starting 27th December


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#151 D-Type

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 23:18

It's many years ago now, but I believe that Stirling Moss lost his licence for overtaking in the Mersey Tunnel, which was prohibited. The reason for the prohibition may have been the risk of a head on collision in the 2-way tunnel but that does not mean that Moss's actions caused one. Or are you talking about another ban?

In my earlier post I deliberately used the word 'perception' when talking about the closeness of a current rally car to a showroom model.

Edited by D-Type, 18 January 2013 - 11:12.


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#152 john aston

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:08

But in those days "Paddy Hopkirk's Mini" or "Roger Clark's Escort" were far closer to the showroom model than "Sebastien Loeb's Citroen". The customer could identify with the rally cars while now the perception is that only the name, the general shape and maybe the engine block are the same and the rest are special parts. "Win on Sunday - sell on Monday" no longer applies.


But rallying got massive coverage through Gp B era , McRae and Burns eras too. It lost the plot - thanks to botched TV coverage and godawful cars- and Loeb's dominance in early noughties. No point in promoting rallying at moment- 1600 turbos, yaaawn - they'll be doing that in F1 next ..They ARE ? (OK, it's 1500 . ) Club and historic rallying are just fine but WRC UK round - or Tour de Small Part of Wales- forget it.

#153 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:42

It's many years ago now, but I believe that Stirling Moss lost his licence for overtaking in the Mersey Tunnel, which was prohibited. The reason for the prohibition may have been the risk of a head on collision in the 2-way tunnel but that does not mean that Moss's actions caused of one.

Close but no cigar, Duncan! There is a thread about the "Mersey Tunnel incident", but he was only fined a tenner for that: the loss of his licence was actually for an offence of dangerous driving in Shropshire - http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=2796202

Edited by Vitesse2, 18 January 2013 - 08:42.


#154 Stephen W

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 09:37

Take your point Stephen, I'd not thought of it like that, however two F1 drivers (alive) & one rally driver (not) seem to me an odd mix. Perhaps it should have been John Surtees for the third programme?


I suspect Surtees is still persona non grata at the Beeb because of the Durex connection! :rolleyes:


But in those days "Paddy Hopkirk's Mini" or "Roger Clark's Escort" were far closer to the showroom model than "Sebastien Loeb's Citroen". The customer could identify with the rally cars while now the perception is that only the name, the general shape and maybe the engine block are the same and the rest are special parts. "Win on Sunday - sell on Monday" no longer applies.


It is odd but my local Citroen garage doesn't make any effort to 'cash in' on the rally success of the company, they don't even have a poster on display of Loeb in his rally car.

:confused:

#155 sterling49

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:28

"Stands back for the list of exceptions, starting with Clark J....


Oh yes ! :up:

#156 Phil Rainford

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 13:42

Don't miss this on Sunday !!

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b01pqd7t


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#157 Allan Lupton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 15:38

Don't miss this on Sunday !!

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b01pqd7t


PAR

Must have been written for the US market - "American Rally Superstar Ken Block" who he? not to mention the US-Speak idea that "Sir Hoy" is how one refers to someone called Chris Hoy who is a knight :drunk:
Not much point in the "Britain's first-ever World Rally Champion" claim as although that's true the championship only started in 1977.

#158 D-Type

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:12

Curious - the writer correctly uses "Sir Chris" in the previous sentence. "Sir Hoy" could have been written by someone of any of a number of non-British nationalities - the USA does not have a monopoly on ignorance and [poor] journalists failing to check their facts.

#159 john aston

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:53

Must have been written for the US market - "American Rally Superstar Ken Block" who he? not to mention the US-Speak idea that "Sir Hoy" is how one refers to someone called Chris Hoy who is a knight :drunk:
Not much point in the "Britain's first-ever World Rally Champion" claim as although that's true the championship only started in 1977.


You will find Mr Block is very popular with the kidz innit. And no mean driver actually...

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#160 alansart

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 17:09

You will find Mr Block is very popular with the kidz innit. And no mean driver actually...





#161 Allan Lupton

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:12

Seems to be from the Top Gear school of gratuitous sideways travel and tyre smoke, even if a few of the manoeuvres are a bit cleverer than that.


#162 LotusElise

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 18:35

I actually rather like Ken Block's attitude to rallying. After what's been said upthread about how it's lost its way, someone like Block bringing some of the unpredictability and drama back to it is a good thing. We need some more sideways action.

He also owns and rallies a MkII Escort, which he has claimed is one of his favourite cars.

#163 Tony Matthews

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 19:05



My favourite Ken Block - a lot of GoPro Heros used, and one goes tumbling... 3min 37 secs!

Edited by Tony Matthews, 26 January 2013 - 19:09.


#164 Phil Rainford

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 19:36

Fantastic....but where is everybody ??


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#165 RS2000

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 20:06

I think the politest verdict on Ken Block from within rallying at all levels has been that he's over hyped, over exposed and (now presumably) over here...

#166 sterling49

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 23:36



Fabulous stuff, although well practised, really good to watch. Always wondered why he never figured higher in the results of the W.R.Cs that he did, maybe it is the practise element, but these promo films are superb ! Pity he never went up Lombard Street though :cat:

#167 Stephen W

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:43

You will find Mr Block is very popular with the kidz innit. And no mean driver actually...


Really?

Seems to be from the Top Gear school of gratuitous sideways travel and tyre smoke, even if a few of the manoeuvres are a bit cleverer than that.


Well rehearsed and choreographed episodes don't necessarily prepare you for WRC as Block has found out.

I think the politest verdict on Ken Block from within rallying at all levels has been that he's over hyped, over exposed and (now presumably) over here...


:lol:


Block has always looked like an accident waiting to happen however one has to admire his determination.


#168 john aston

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:31

Actaully I think the verdict on Mr Block from the establishment is that he's an upstart from the colonies with ideas above his station , guilty of the possession of a permanent grin and the desire- heaven forfend- to get some media coverage for rallying to enable it to esape from the pit into which it has sunk ....He is not going to win the championship but who cares- he makes bloody good watching . Sorry if I am guilty of enjoying the sight of cars being thrown sideways - or are we only meant to enjoy that from the Villenuves of this world ?

#169 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 10:42

Yes, he has never been anywhere near the pace in WRC despite have a full WRC Ford. Certainly over hyped and a bit of an Amercan prat but entertaining in small doses!

#170 Tony Matthews

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:05

....He is not going to win the championship but who cares- he makes bloody good watching .

I wouldn'd spend hours watching the videos, but they are fun, and as for rallying, I used to take an interest, but now I'm not sure which manufacturers are involved, or know more than two diver's names - er, thingy and the other one.

#171 sterling49

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:06

Actaully I think the verdict on Mr Block from the establishment is that he's an upstart from the colonies with ideas above his station , guilty of the possession of a permanent grin and the desire- heaven forfend- to get some media coverage for rallying to enable it to esape from the pit into which it has sunk ....He is not going to win the championship but who cares- he makes bloody good watching . Sorry if I am guilty of enjoying the sight of cars being thrown sideways - or are we only meant to enjoy that from the Villenuves of this world ?


Agree absolutely, it is great to watch, the piece where the car is airborn and on full oposite lock is amazing, and anybody who has driven SF will know, those hills and brows are steep, great ten minutes viewing, bravo !

Edited by sterling49, 27 January 2013 - 20:17.


#172 dwh43scale

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:57

Perhaps we need to think more widely. There's a whole new generation who don't give two hoots for our nostalgia. The Delta Wing at Le Mans last year caused no little guffawing among some of the cognoscenti about whether it would even go round corners but seemed to strike a chord with younger people.

Like Sterling, love the airborne opposite lock moment ! He can drive !

#173 kayemod

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 13:03


Now, if he'd met Frank Bullitt coming the other way...

I hadn't seen that before, never even heard of Ken Block in fact, I've clearly led a sheltered life, it's very impressive and quite fun in small doses, but to get back somewhere near the point of this thread, is it fast? I saw Colin McRae once driving in a TVR race, he was very spectacular in practice, hanging it out everywhere, it looked great, he had the watching crowd transfixed, far more dramatic than anyone else in the event, but I think he ended up something like 12th on the grid, and he never came anywhere near winning the race. It gets the kids screaming, but that left me wondering just how fast this kind of showman driving really is, and the fact that Ken Block has had no real rally success despite his phenomenal car control, surely backs this up.


#174 IanG

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:04

Perhaps we need to think more widely. There's a whole new generation who don't give two hoots for our nostalgia. The Delta Wing at Le Mans last year caused no little guffawing among some of the cognoscenti about whether it would even go round corners but seemed to strike a chord with younger people.

Like Sterling, love the airborne opposite lock moment ! He can drive !


Yes he can drive.
Ken Block was the founder of DC shoes in 1993 and sold it to Quicksilver for $87 million in 2010. He is not short of a bob or two.
He has obviously found a niche market for his gymkhana style driving so good luck to him.
He had the funds to run a car on the WRC so he did. Who can blame him for that. I have seen plenty of drivers in F1 who bring pots of money to get a drive, and some of them couldn't drive a soapy stick up a dogs backside.
Ken Block became great friends with Colin McRae, and after Colin's death, he came across to Scotland to do the McRae Stages Rally along with many other notable drivers including Ari Vatanen, Stig Blomqvist, Andrew Cowan and Jim McRae.
Having met many many people in my 30 years in the sport, I have to say Ken Block is one of the nicest, unassuming people you could wish to meet.
He is also very aware, that as a rally driver, he leaves a lot to be desired, but that does not diminish his enjoyment of the sport.
One thing I noticed in the film clip in SF, is at least a British built car is able to take the pounding from all those jumps far better than that heap of trash that the family Duke from Hazard County had to put up with.

#175 kayemod

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:25

One thing I noticed in the film clip in SF, is at least a British built car is able to take the pounding from all those jumps far better than that heap of trash that the family Duke from Hazard County had to put up with.


Maybe, but he wouldn't look half as good as Daisy in those shorts.


#176 IanG

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 16:38

Maybe, but he wouldn't look half as good as Daisy in those shorts.


I have to concede on that point Rob.


#177 Phil Rainford

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:13

Excellent programme......was it just me or did Sir Chris Hoy look a natural in a rally car?


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#178 Paul Hurdsfield

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:25

I thought it was the best of the series. Dont get me wrong the others were fantastic to watch but I thought they concentrated a bit too much on the 'celeb' presenting the show than the subject. But yes it was nostalgic, there were some great period clips, and I wish we could have more of this stuff on the telly :)

#179 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:18

I didn't think Colin McRae came out of it too well, in more ways than one. My understand of motorsport is to win at the slowest possible speed not to drive like a maniac at 10/10ths when you have an unbeatable lead. I understand that the AAIB report, which was briefly mentioned in the programme, was equally scathing. It's a shame. So much talent but a quirk in his personality didn't know how to temper it.

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#180 kayemod

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:34

I didn't think Colin McRae came out of it too well, in more ways than one.


Neither did I, and he seemed a strange choice to include in a series that featured true greats like Sir Jackie and Sir Stirling. The dispassionate observer sitting next to me wasn't at all impressed, and she'd really enjoyed the first two programmes.


#181 hamsterace

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:48

I agree - I was rather reminded of the saying (in the context of both driving and flying here) about there being old pilots, and bold pilots....

Conversely, I thought his father came across as a kind, dignified and thoroughly decent man. I have never been an avid follower of rallying - rather an interested observer - but I recall that being the case during his driving years, and it is reassuring to see that little has changed.

I was surprised that Alister McRae didn't feature in the programme though?

Edited by hamsterace, 28 January 2013 - 11:14.


#182 Stephen W

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:56

Neither did I, and he seemed a strange choice to include in a series that featured true greats like Sir Jackie and Sir Stirling. The dispassionate observer sitting next to me wasn't at all impressed, and she'd really enjoyed the first two programmes.


Roger Clark or Richard Burns may have been better choices.


#183 Alan Baker

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:02

McRae came across as self centred and reckless, a strange choice for Sir Chris' hero worship. One would have hoped that a Scot looking for a true Scottish motor sport legend would have opted for Jim Clark, but that would have made for a less sensational programme.

#184 BRG

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:51

Roger Clark or Richard Burns may have been better choices.

Colin McRae was the first British World Rally Champion. Who better to choose? Clark was brilliant, certainly, but never really starred on the international stage because he was the victim of Ford's Scandinavian obsession, as was Jimmy McRae of course. Both would have been WRCs had they been Swedish or Finnish.

Burns was a great rally driver too, but the antithesis of Colin McRae. The brain may say that going just fast enough to win is the best approach but the heart says that flat out is what we really love. "All the time - maximum attack" as Marku Alen once said. That's why we love Gilles Villeneuve more than Alain Prost. Prost was the better driver but Gilles is the icon. And so is Colin, partly from the flat-out driving, but also from the computer game which extended his fame to many who didn't follow rallying, in a way that no other rally driver has ever managed.

I was disappointed by the programme. It had some good early footage that is rarely seen, and spelt out Colin's career well. And it did well to show the negative aspects of Colin's always 100% approach such as the team orders business and the loss of a second championship. Father Jimmy always comes across so well although I too was surprised that Alister didn't appear. It was a pity that they couldn't get Malcolm Wilson either.

But there was too much of Sir Chris Hoy learning to be a rally driver (a perfectly good topic for a programme; I am a great admirer of Hoy and would happily watch such a programme, but this was meant to be about Colin) and we really didn't need Ken Block at all. But I did think that Hoy seemed to have some natural flair for the sport and will be interested to see if he follows it up now he has retired from the saddle.

#185 dank

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:01

Malcolm Wilson did feature in it, didn't he? Please say he did, because I fear I may be losing my marbles if he didn't.

Also, Hoy is racing Radicals this season. He seems to have a natural ability for car control, so I watch his campaign with interest.

As for the programme, I enjoyed it more than the first two instalments. Less stroking of the celeb's ego and more subjective.

#186 Paul Hurdsfield

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:33

Phew, i was beginning to think it was just me  ;)
At the end of the day 'we' got a bit more motorsport on telly, and thats what it's all about. :up:

#187 BRG

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:34

Malcolm Wilson did feature in it, didn't he? Please say he did, because I fear I may be losing my marbles if he didn't.

I didn't recall seeing him, but I did make a quick cuppa at one point so perhaps I missed him?

#188 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 13:28

I think he did 2 slots.

#189 David Beard

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 13:43

Also, Hoy is racing Radicals this season. He seems to have a natural ability for car control, so I watch his campaign with interest.


One has to ask...is Chris Hoy related to Will and James Hoy?

#190 RTH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 14:00

Would all three of these programmes have been improved with the omission of the celebrities supposedly learning to drive like the subject in a few days - for me they just got in the way of the story.

#191 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 14:56

"One has to ask....is Chris Hoy related to Will and James Hoy?"

I think their father is the Old Man of Hoy ;-D

#192 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 14:56

"One has to ask....is Chris Hoy related to Will and James Hoy?"

I think their father is the Old Man of Hoy ;-D

#193 sterling49

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 15:54

Colin McRae was the first British World Rally Champion. Who better to choose? Clark was brilliant, certainly, but never really starred on the international stage because he was the victim of Ford's Scandinavian obsession, as was Jimmy McRae of course. Both would have been WRCs had they been Swedish or Finnish.

Burns was a great rally driver too, but the antithesis of Colin McRae. The brain may say that going just fast enough to win is the best approach but the heart says that flat out is what we really love. "All the time - maximum attack" as Marku Alen once said. That's why we love Gilles Villeneuve more than Alain Prost. Prost was the better driver but Gilles is the icon. And so is Colin, partly from the flat-out driving, but also from the computer game which extended his fame to many who didn't follow rallying, in a way that no other rally driver has ever managed.

I was disappointed by the programme. It had some good early footage that is rarely seen, and spelt out Colin's career well. And it did well to show the negative aspects of Colin's always 100% approach such as the team orders business and the loss of a second championship. Father Jimmy always comes across so well although I too was surprised that Alister didn't appear. It was a pity that they couldn't get Malcolm Wilson either.

But there was too much of Sir Chris Hoy learning to be a rally driver (a perfectly good topic for a programme; I am a great admirer of Hoy and would happily watch such a programme, but this was meant to be about Colin) and we really didn't need Ken Block at all. But I did think that Hoy seemed to have some natural flair for the sport and will be interested to see if he follows it up now he has retired from the saddle.


A spot on synopsis, mirrors my opinions absolutely.

Edited by sterling49, 28 January 2013 - 15:55.


#194 RS2000

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 16:46

Surprised also to see Robbie Head captioned several times only as "childhood friend". In the Nova days he would arguably have been as quick as McRae with all the same parts on his car - but then that would not have fitted with the programme.
As suggested way back in the thread, and as others have now commented, McRae C. seemed to give the impression he was beyond the control of any co-driver. Dave Richards had clearly identified the problem but as a former co-driver himself seemed to believe the solution would come from a stronger/better co-driver, so initiated goodbye to Derek Ringer. Even the excellent Nicky Grist, who had instantaneously clicked with Juha Kankhunen, ultimately failed to totally control McRae.
Much of Carlos Sainz' comment may have been sincere (but as a rival surely not all of it?) but it was said the primary influence in destabilising Colin McRae was Sainz' co-driver Luis Moya, never slow to aid/abet/encourage the drinking and other wild behaviour.
As with James Martin in the Tyrrell at Monza, did Chris Hoy not look just a bit too good latterly in the Imprezza?
As has also been pointed out by others, decent parents/good parental guidance was never lacking, whereas with Richard Burns his (albeit enthusiastic and supportive) father lacked recent motorsport experience and ordinary motor club members David Williams and Gordon Jarvis were his mentors - producing a more rounded person/driver.

#195 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:49

I would point out that Malcolm Wilson was indeed in the programme.

#196 Phil Rainford

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:49

For those who witnessed McRae's driving at his peak; allied to his huge following the description " Legend " is well deserved.

For me what I always struggled to understand was as McRae gained experience and knowledge over the years his driving style never changed

As he aged his natural reactions must have gradually slowed but the speed he attempted to drive at never did.........brilliant to watch unless of course you were sitting next to him in the co-drivers seat.

However having said that the day I watched him chase down Carlos Sainz on the RAC Rally of 1994 stands out as one of my greatest moments watching motor sport


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#197 sterling49

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 17:56

However having said that the day I watched him chase down Carlos Sainz on the RAC Rally of 1994 stands out as one of my greatest moments watching motor sport


PAR


Here, here ! Colin was at this time acknowledged by all of the top drivers as the very fastest in the world and this event proved it so completely.

Edited by sterling49, 28 January 2013 - 17:57.


#198 midgrid

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 19:19

As with James Martin in the Tyrrell at Monza, did Chris Hoy not look just a bit too good latterly in the Imprezza?


They spliced the footage of Hoy's re-creation with McRae's original stage run, and (for me at least) it was often hard to tell the difference. Hoy did look assured behind the wheel, and I too wouldn't be surprised if he starts rallying as a hobby after the next Commonwealth Games.


#199 Peter Morley

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 21:26

Would all three of these programmes have been improved with the omission of the celebrities supposedly learning to drive like the subject in a few days - for me they just got in the way of the story.


Yes but the BBC would never have commissioned them.
A BBC person talked to me at the Festival of Greed about what could well have become these programmes and he said the only way to get anything commissioned these days is to include a celebrity who the (female) person responsible for commissioning programmes had heard of!


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#200 dwh43scale

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 22:01

They spliced the footage of Hoy's re-creation with McRae's original stage run, and (for me at least) it was often hard to tell the difference. Hoy did look assured behind the wheel, and I too wouldn't be surprised if he starts rallying as a hobby after the next Commonwealth Games.


They were different shades of yellow (555 decals) dayglo and yellow - took me a few moments !

Was a good programme. Very much enjoyed in this household.

Chris Hoy was a considerable improvement over certain other celebs we saw at Xmas !

Perhaps we should have rallying in the Commonwealth Games ...