23 replies to this topic

[garyfrogeye]

Having just received a copy of the 20/6/1958 edition of motorsport (because it has an article on the Speedwell Sprite by John Bolster). I was taken by the front cover which shows the European Grand Prix winning Vanwall of Tony Books. What struck me about the photo is what looks like an upturned car which can clearly be seen behind the rear wheel of the Vanwall. Does anyone what the story is behind that?
No scanner at work so I can't post the image.

[Paul Parker]

Having just received a copy of the 20/6/1958 edition of motorsport (because it has an article on the Speedwell Sprite by John Bolster). I was taken by the front cover which shows the European Grand Prix winning Vanwall of Tony Books. What struck me about the photo is what looks like an upturned car which can clearly be seen behind the rear wheel of the Vanwall. Does anyone what the story is behind that?
No scanner at work so I can't post the image.

I've not got a copy to hand but there was a car from a previous race no.140 upside down on the right hand side of the Raidillon after Eau Rouge, cannot tell what it is but if you open up the LAT Photo site and type in Spa 1958 you will see a b/w of Hawthorn with the crashed vehicle just visible in the background.

Unfortunately none of the websites that I have tried have a proper list of runners in any support races at the Belgian GP beyond the fact that Wolfgang Seidel won the Francorchamps Handicap in a Ferrari 250GT.

[David McKinney]

Looks like a TR2

[Paul Parker]

Looks like a TR2

Hello David and Season's Greetings to you.

I've got a hi-res of this shot that I cannot post due to copyright and I would say having looked at it again at maximum magnification that it is not a TR2 because the grille is not inset although it might be a TR3 but the image is rather blurred although I can see what looks like the distinctive TR2/3 front wing form and the door shutline so well done it probably is a TR.

[Tim Murray]

Here's the Autosport cover:

http://www.ebay.ie/i...B-/310370653738

[garyfrogeye]

Thanks for the feedback. If we can find out what the story of the crash is, then we can surely discover what model the car is too.
I certainly didn't pay anywhere near that for my copy!

[Rob29]

Thanks for the feedback. If we can find out what the story of the crash is, then we can surely discover what model the car is too.
I certainly didn't pay anywhere near that for my copy!

Nor me-see to remember paying the cover the cover pice at the time -sadly no longer have it

[LittleChris]

Eh, what's a non GP car doing upside down at the top of the Raidillon when a GP car is passing by ?

Edited by LittleChris, 21 December 2012 - 23:49.

[Sharman]

Eh, what's a non GP car doing upside down at the top of the Raidillon when a GP car is passing by ?

Renowned Belgian concern for racing accidents?

[nicanary]

Eh, what's a non GP car doing upside down at the top of the Raidillon when a GP car is passing by ?

Stop the race! Stop the race! Hide the children, we're all in mortal danger! (Commentator to "expert") "Tell me, Martin, have you EVER seen anything so reckless and regardless of human life, in the history of the sport? This is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

[john winfield]

Stop the race! Stop the race! Hide the children, we're all in mortal danger! (Commentator to "expert") "Tell me, Martin, have you EVER seen anything so reckless and regardless of human life, in the history of the sport? This is a catastrophe waiting to happen.

Nica, you old cynic!

I reckon it's an upturned VW Beetle, the one that returned in 1962 to give Lucien Bianchi a fright (at around 15 secs). Probably a local from Malmedy, off to see his mum in Spa, and not going to let oncoming racing cars change his weekend routine.

[Wirra]

Poor quality and I couldn't pick out anything. It might be an advertising sign.



at 6:20 you can 'pause' and 'play' footage of Eau Rouge.

Edited by Wirra, 22 December 2012 - 13:21.

[Paul Parker]

Eh, what's a non GP car doing upside down at the top of the Raidillon when a GP car is passing by ?

Crashed cars off course from support races were routinely left where they were on some Continental circuits until the end of the day's racing unless they were really in the way, the Nurburgring being typical in period and there are plenty of pics illustrating this over the decades.

It also applied to vehicles abandoned directly trackside which any spinning competing car could and sometimes did hit as per Le Mans or for instance the 1962 Goodwood TT. Nothing less than a totally blocked road would stop a race in those days and even as late as 1978 the Dutch GP at Zandvoort continued on whilst the smashed Arrows of Jochen Mass, which was blocking most of the track, was removed.

Different times, different attitudes.

[nicanary]

Crashed cars off course from support races were routinely left where they were on some Continental circuits until the end of the day's racing unless they were really in the way, the Nurburgring being typical in period and there are plenty of pics illustrating this over the decades.

It also applied to vehicles abandoned directly trackside which any spinning competing car could and sometimes did hit as per Le Mans or for instance the 1962 Goodwood TT. Nothing less than a totally blocked road would stop a race in those days and even as late as 1978 the Dutch GP at Zandvoort continued on whilst the smashed Arrows of Jochen Mass, which was blocking most of the track, was removed.

Different times, different attitudes.

Unlike many members of this forum, I still watch the Grands Prix of the Bernie era. I can't help myself, I love the sport too much, at the same time perfectly understanding why some nostalgists just can't/won't. I have argued long and hard regarding the safety-car and its usage - like any reasonable person I don't wish to see anyone's life unnecessarily put at risk, but the present-day attitude borders on hysteria IMO.

It seems that the safety-car is required almost as a matter of course whenever a car has left the track permanently, even when it constitutes no hazard whatsoever. As a result a driver loses his lead/margin having worked his socks off, and team tactics/strategies go to pot. Alas, some modern F1 fans find this adds to the interest - contrived entertainment to me.

[Paul Parker]

Unlike many members of this forum, I still watch the Grands Prix of the Bernie era. I can't help myself, I love the sport too much, at the same time perfectly understanding why some nostalgists just can't/won't. I have argued long and hard regarding the safety-car and its usage - like any reasonable person I don't wish to see anyone's life unnecessarily put at risk, but the present-day attitude borders on hysteria IMO.

It seems that the safety-car is required almost as a matter of course whenever a car has left the track permanently, even when it constitutes no hazard whatsoever. As a result a driver loses his lead/margin having worked his socks off, and team tactics/strategies go to pot. Alas, some modern F1 fans find this adds to the interest - contrived entertainment to me.

I agree but the fact is that we are ruled by politicos, bureaucrats and lawyers all of whom have a vested interest in overt control regardless of merit.

That is not to ignore the possible consequences of a more relaxed attitude to matters safety and/or perceived hazards, which in this litigious and repressive age, could easily prove fatal to motor sport in general in the event of fatalities. The safety car useage is certainly a spoiler for some drivers but it does of course reboot the race oft times which is what the media want. However just imagine what would happen if somebody were injured or died if the racing carried on whilst a car/driver were in a vulnerable position or already sitting injured in a crashed car. However I concur that it is, in my opinion, applied unnecessarily on occasion. Personally I believe that latter day motor racing has become, if not too safe, then far too easy to take unnecessary risks and risk questionable driving tactics knowing that almost certainly it will only be the machinery that suffers, egos excepted.

If this practice could be stopped then we would not need the safety car so often but otherwise I'm afraid that motor racing will continue to be ever more contrived and controlled at every level by regulatory diktats and process.

[nicanary]

Well said, by a professional writer.

(PS Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960/69 has been sitting on my bookshelf grinning at me for three weeks now, but I have resisted manfully. Xmas morning reading is the plan, whilst peace still reigns)

[Cavalier53]

Having just received a copy of the 20/6/1958 edition of motorsport (because it has an article on the Speedwell Sprite by John Bolster). I was taken by the front cover which shows the European Grand Prix winning Vanwall of Tony Books. What struck me about the photo is what looks like an upturned car which can clearly be seen behind the rear wheel of the Vanwall. Does anyone what the story is behind that?
No scanner at work so I can't post the image.

Delsaux's Francorchamps 1948-1960 has a very clear picture of the Triumph (TR3) no. 40 upside down at the Radillion following the pre-GP handicap race. Etienne Henrard is named as the driver - but now word on his fate.
Delsaux confirms Seidel as winner, in front of an Alfa 1900, an Auto Union 1000 and a Mercedes 300 SL (Page 280, the last page...)

[Paul Parker]

Delsaux's Francorchamps 1948-1960 has a very clear picture of the Triumph (TR3) no. 40 upside down at the Radillion following the pre-GP handicap race. Etienne Henrard is named as the driver - but now word on his fate.
Delsaux confirms Seidel as winner, in front of an Alfa 1900, an Auto Union 1000 and a Mercedes 300 SL (Page 280, the last page...)

Thank you for identifying car and driver, although I thought it was no.140 because the image is blurred and there appears to be a vertical line in front of the 4 with what looks like a horizontal line running through it, although this might be a mark caused during the shunt. Let's hope that Henrard was not badly injured and it seems that Seidel in his Ferrari certainly had some stiff competition.

[Paul Parker]

Well said, by a professional writer.

(PS Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960/69 has been sitting on my bookshelf grinning at me for three weeks now, but I have resisted manfully. Xmas morning reading is the plan, whilst peace still reigns)

I carelessly omitted to mention the role of insurance companies in all this.

[nicanary]

I carelessly omitted to mention the role of insurance companies in all this.

Which is why nostalgists exist. What happens when we're all pushing up daisies? I expect the F1 of today will be considered "dangerous" in years to come.

[AAA-Eagle]

Let's hope that Henrard was not badly injured...

However, a moment deviated from its trajectory, his car left the road and ... The driver of this Triumph TR3, Etienne Henrard, emerge unscathed from his car

[Paul Parker]

Which is why nostalgists exist. What happens when we're all pushing up daisies? I expect the F1 of today will be considered "dangerous" in years to come.

It is tempting to think that, by then, literally everything actually physically real will have bean replaced by the inverted fantasy of virtual reality.

[paulhooft]

Which is why nostalgists exist. What happens when we're all pushing up daisies? I expect the F1 of today will be considered "dangerous" in years to come.

Because there are too many Dangerous Girls without a Burka in the pits??

Edited by paulhooft, 23 December 2012 - 19:26.

[nicanary]

Well said, by a professional writer.

(PS Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960/69 has been sitting on my bookshelf grinning at me for three weeks now, but I have resisted manfully. Xmas morning reading is the plan, whilst peace still reigns)

I appreciate the importance of copyright, so I hope Mr.P. doesn't mind me quoting from his book. I just had to share this with those of a like mind.

P.93 and a shot of the start of the 1963 Le Mans 24 -hrs - "Nothing in modern motorsport (sic) comes remotely close to the visceral drama....etc,"

Boy, how I love that "sic".