Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 24 votes

Ferrari F138: the race car


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4023 replies to this topic

#951 rsaca

rsaca
  • Member

  • 330 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:17

Hello. I have been reading this forum since couple of years. I read a lot of things from here. I hope F138 will be the fastest and the most reliable car on the grid. :)


Welcome!

We hope so too.

Advertisement

#952 RosannaG

RosannaG
  • Member

  • 678 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:44

Hello. I have been reading this forum since couple of years. I read a lot of things from here. I hope F138 will be the fastest and the most reliable car on the grid. :)


I hope not! :lol:

Welcome! I have just landed around here but I already feel at home, I hope you will too! :kiss:

Edited by RosannaG, 11 February 2013 - 18:44.


#953 VIVAFERRARI

VIVAFERRARI
  • New Member

  • 11 posts
  • Joined: February 13

Posted 11 February 2013 - 19:45

Welcome!

We hope so too.



I hope not! :lol:

Welcome! I have just landed around here but I already feel at home, I hope you will too! :kiss:


Thanks both of you :).

Is there more information about "Fluidic Switch" which should help to DRS system?
Someone said that the hiring of Rory Byrne is not very good idea. But according to me if there is a person who can beat Newey, this one will be Rory. Yes, he is 69 yrs old but he also knows how to make fast cars like F2004. No one can erase his experience just like that.

English is not my native language so i apologise if i make mistakes :).

Edited by VIVAFERRARI, 11 February 2013 - 19:47.


#954 Ikebana

Ikebana
  • Member

  • 85 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 11 February 2013 - 22:53

That has to be fantastic news for Ferrari fans! :up:

Welcome back Rory!

Looks like this years Ferrari could very well surprise a lot of people, while testing is only testing, certainly the new Ferrari seems to be much better at this time of the year then last years.

Good luck!


That's what is giving me hopes. Last year at this time there was a lot of drama and frustration, a lot of the early races were poor where Ferrari was all trying damage limitation while they were improving the car.

This year without the drama it could mean a much better start of the season. I have a lot of faiths and hopes for the F138.

Edited by Ikebana, 11 February 2013 - 22:54.


#955 Rajdeep

Rajdeep
  • Member

  • 67 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 11 February 2013 - 22:55

Interesting calculations from GA

He puts the F138 second fastest, 0.2 behind the McLaren. He gives the reasons behind his numbers and they look relatively sensible. At least, as sensible as it can be at this point in time...

#956 swifteddie1

swifteddie1
  • New Member

  • 27 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:14

Interesting calculations from GA

He puts the F138 second fastest, 0.2 behind the McLaren. He gives the reasons behind his numbers and they look relatively sensible. At least, as sensible as it can be at this point in time...


I think you have to be careful because he doesnt factor in the tyres the cars were on for those stints or fastest laps.



#957 rsaca

rsaca
  • Member

  • 330 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:18

Interesting calculations from GA

He puts the F138 second fastest, 0.2 behind the McLaren. He gives the reasons behind his numbers and they look relatively sensible. At least, as sensible as it can be at this point in time...


I have no doubt Ferrari will be quick.

You know why I don't really buy it? Because I don't believe Mercedes or Lotus are faster than the RB9. Mclaren are quick, no question, but we know from experience Newey has always something up his sleeve.

Either way, these cars will not be nearly close as to the ones we will see in Melbourne for FP1.

#958 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 5,697 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:22

Interesting calculations from GA

He puts the F138 second fastest, 0.2 behind the McLaren. He gives the reasons behind his numbers and they look relatively sensible. At least, as sensible as it can be at this point in time...



Sorry but his times are way off, everyone knows McLaren isn't 0,7 seconds faster than Red Bull at short circuit like Jerez. Red Bull and Lotus said their times were done with plenty of fuel onboard so when Lotus did 1,18,1... Their best can't be only 1,17,9. Best cars are mclaren and red bull closely followed by ferrari,lotus and mercedes and the order can change quickly from circuit to another.

Edited by Vesuvius, 11 February 2013 - 23:23.


#959 Massa

Massa
  • Member

  • 4,165 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:29

And why you said Mclaren and Red Bull are the best car ? You have some data ?

For the moment, nobody knows who have the quickest car.

Advertisement

#960 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,899 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:36

Sorry but his times are way off, everyone knows McLaren isn't 0,7 seconds faster than Red Bull at short circuit like Jerez. Red Bull and Lotus said their times were done with plenty of fuel onboard so when Lotus did 1,18,1... Their best can't be only 1,17,9. Best cars are mclaren and red bull closely followed by ferrari,lotus and mercedes and the order can change quickly from circuit to another.

You and GA have made assumptions about the grid. You ridicule his, and produce your own take on the order. Fair enough as we all think differently, but at least GA provided evidence for his opinion.
Even though we have our predictions there is no way we can say for certain the order. All we know is that no one has made screw ups and that the leading group of 5-6 teams have produced sound cars (so far).

Saying that, I very much doubt that the RedBull is slower than the Mercedes for example.

#961 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 1,317 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:38

Sorry but his times are way off, everyone knows McLaren isn't 0,7 seconds faster than Red Bull at short circuit like Jerez. Red Bull and Lotus said their times were done with plenty of fuel onboard so when Lotus did 1,18,1... Their best can't be only 1,17,9. Best cars are mclaren and red bull closely followed by ferrari,lotus and mercedes and the order can change quickly from circuit to another.

So how can you know who's quickest?

#962 RosannaG

RosannaG
  • Member

  • 678 posts
  • Joined: December 12

Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:50

Is it that important to be the quickest in the first test of the season? To me, it looked like the teams were more interested in other points like tyres, reliability, etc.



#963 PoleMan

PoleMan
  • Member

  • 1,515 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:00

Interesting calculations from GA

He puts the F138 second fastest, 0.2 behind the McLaren. He gives the reasons behind his numbers and they look relatively sensible. At least, as sensible as it can be at this point in time...

Thanks to Gary Anderson for a decent bit of distraction before the next test in a fortnight. Plenty for folks to talk about and hope for (or fear!). He offers his own voodoo analysis, which I don't presume to understand, but it obviously makes sense to him. The thing I wonder is, what happened to that extra 10% of downforce the RB9 has over the rest of the field? Seems to have gone POOF under this more "detailed analysis."  ;)

#964 tarek

tarek
  • Member

  • 31 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:36

Last year I realized early on that we have a dog of a car, and thought that without Rory to face off with Newey, we are dead meet until Newey retires. Well, guess what, Rory is back and I am willing to wager we capture both championships this year


#965 Vesuvius

Vesuvius
  • Member

  • 5,697 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:45

Last year I realized early on that we have a dog of a car, and thought that without Rory to face off with Newey, we are dead meet until Newey retires. Well, guess what, Rory is back and I am willing to wager we capture both championships this year


Rory worked and helped on last years car as well, didn't do miracles back then.

#966 Jacobss

Jacobss
  • Member

  • 126 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 12 February 2013 - 06:38

People give to much credit to one person for developing a car. It reminds me a little bit of personality cult. Hundreds of people work on a car. You really shouldn't concentrate on just one person... but its typical for us humans. We often give to much credit to one person, yet we also want to have one person to blame.

#967 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 8,816 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:30

People give to much credit to one person for developing a car. It reminds me a little bit of personality cult. Hundreds of people work on a car. You really shouldn't concentrate on just one person... but its typical for us humans. We often give to much credit to one person, yet we also want to have one person to blame.

Sure there are many hands working on a car but the decisions about what makes it to the car or not rests with guys like Newey and Byrne... It's not luck or coincidence that since 1992, 17 championships have been shared by the 2 of them or their designs have won championships after they've left. On only 4 occasions has cars not influenced by the aforementioned won championships in that period.

Pretty difficult to argue with stats like that.

Regarding Anderson's analysis... He knows about as much as us at the moment. Pure speculation.



#968 Spa

Spa
  • Member

  • 139 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 12 February 2013 - 07:49

Yes, to speculate with the pecking order is a little bit of a reach rigth now. I think we will have a better idea after the race simulations in Barcelona...

Cheers! ;-)

#969 FirstWatt

FirstWatt
  • Member

  • 356 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:39

Sure there are many hands working on a car but the decisions about what makes it to the car or not rests with guys like Newey and Byrne... It's not luck or coincidence that since 1992, 17 championships have been shared by the 2 of them or their designs have won championships after they've left. On only 4 occasions has cars not influenced by the aforementioned won championships in that period.[...]


Spot on. Luigi Mazzola worked with Rory Byrne at Ferrari. In BlogF1.it, he described that working with Rory was very special. If Rory had a new idea, then a scaring time for all the engineers and technicians was ahead, as there was an awful lot to change. But his ideas brought consistently lap time, and Mazzola described the ideas of Rory as "the double six".

Rory was the real Succes Factor at Ferrari and Benetton (uh, and remember 1985, Toleman! Teo Fabi got one Pole and several qaulifications better than tenth place, with a Hart Engine....and look what other "low budget teams did back then, with this Engine...).
Grande Rory Byrne. Forza Ferrari.

Edited by FirstWatt, 12 February 2013 - 09:41.


#970 mfelat

mfelat
  • Member

  • 86 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:43

can anybody roughly translate this? is there anything interesting?

Technical analysis from Piola:

Posted Image

#971 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 5,161 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 12 February 2013 - 18:03

Apologies if it has been already said, but in other forum they are suggesting the air entry is for brakes cooling, and seems to add up as there are no regular brake ducts:

Posted Image

#972 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,588 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 February 2013 - 18:36

Apologies if it has been already said, but in other forum they are suggesting the air entry is for brakes cooling, and seems to add up as there are no regular brake ducts:


I think the missing brake ducts were mentioned by Scarbs (pay page), and it does not look like an inlet in the chassis would be required:

Lotus

Most teams launched with aerodynamically efficient front brake ducts that did away with the scoop feeding the brakes by moving the inlet between the tyre and brake duct vane. Last year, Ferrari also adopted this idea on its rear brake ducts



#973 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 February 2013 - 20:15

Apologies if it has been already said, but in other forum they are suggesting the air entry is for brakes cooling, and seems to add up as there are no regular brake ducts:

Posted Image


I donno how, but it should be sucingair out of the bottom of the chassis.... how... huumm...?

#974 Rikhart

Rikhart
  • Member

  • 576 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 12 February 2013 - 20:27

Do you even know WHERE the brakes are located? That hole could never be used to cool the brakes. Unless they use the suspension attached to the brakes, heat travels all the way to the hole, then it gets cooled, which makes no sense at all.

#975 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 5,161 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 12 February 2013 - 20:33

Do you even know WHERE the brakes are located? That hole could never be used to cool the brakes. Unless they use the suspension attached to the brakes, heat travels all the way to the hole, then it gets cooled, which makes no sense at all.


Why would the heat need to travel all the way to the hole? It's the air that the hole sucks the one who should get directed towards the heat, with ducts through the suspension or whatever.

Anyway, some Williams and F2012 pictures from last year were posted in that forum, and it appears it's just very small ducts in the regular position ( http://www.f1technic...iams-brakes.jpg , http://www.racecar-e.../05/upfw34c.jpg ), so the central hole is not for that.

Edited by prty, 12 February 2013 - 20:35.


#976 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 12 February 2013 - 21:53

A repost might help, look at the circle marking an potential outlet in front of the sidepod:

Posted Image

At least to me it seems like one.

Edited by H2H, 12 February 2013 - 21:54.


#977 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 February 2013 - 03:28

Apologies if it has been already said, but in other forum they are suggesting the air entry is for brakes cooling, and seems to add up as there are no regular brake ducts:


Or it could be an "f-duct" type device activated by brake calipers. We don't know. However, I doubt it is only for cooling purposes. It looks like a large duct that could feed different systems. We shall see on qualifying at Melbourne  ;)

#978 HPT

HPT
  • Member

  • 1,149 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:41

Or it could be an "f-duct" type device activated by brake calipers. We don't know. However, I doubt it is only for cooling purposes. It looks like a large duct that could feed different systems. We shall see on qualifying at Melbourne ;)


If it's activated by brake calipers then it's illegal. Any stalling device must now be passive, hence DDRS was outlawed because the driver manually switches it on along with regular DRS.

Edited by HPT, 13 February 2013 - 04:42.


#979 jstrains

jstrains
  • Member

  • 1,425 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:07

They are not stupid to bring something that is obvious to everybody and illegal...

Advertisement

#980 V3TT3L

V3TT3L
  • Member

  • 1,681 posts
  • Joined: November 12

Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:57

Maybe it is used to cool down the KERS system, there is a device that captures the cinetic braking energy and transforms it into electricity to charge the bateries.

A single duct under the nose might cause less drag than two ducts in the wheels/brake cover combo.

#981 fabr68

fabr68
  • Member

  • 3,963 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 13 February 2013 - 13:15

If it's activated by brake calipers then it's illegal. Any stalling device must now be passive, hence DDRS was outlawed because the driver manually switches it on along with regular DRS.


That is just my speculation. In any case, in current F1 nothing is illegal until next year. Illegal is the new "Innovation". I sure hope Ferrari is exploring this to the max.

#982 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 13 February 2013 - 20:12

If it's activated by brake calipers then it's illegal. Any stalling device must now be passive, hence DDRS was outlawed because the driver manually switches it on along with regular DRS.

Well if not then?

Do airflow under the nose 'peals off' at certain speed?I donno...

#983 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 2,300 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 13 February 2013 - 21:27

For the memory:

1 years later we get to know what went on at time:


The goal is very simple: Montezemolo doesn't want to receive another call from Felipe as in early 2012 when the Brazilian declared the new car to be a "disaster".


http://pitpass.com/4...ssion-Statement

#984 HPT

HPT
  • Member

  • 1,149 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 14 February 2013 - 05:19

Well if not then?

Do airflow under the nose 'peals off' at certain speed?I donno...


Where the air enters is irrelevant. It's where it's directed that matters. This could be the entry for the 'fluidic switch' that James Allen talked about (sorry, I have no idea what a fluidic switch is), or it could be a simple cooling vent. Your guess is as good as mine.

#985 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,588 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:33

Where the air enters is irrelevant. It's where it's directed that matters. This could be the entry for the 'fluidic switch' that James Allen talked about (sorry, I have no idea what a fluidic switch is), or it could be a simple cooling vent. Your guess is as good as mine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics
Edit: fluidic switches were used for F-duct activation, I'm sure you have an idea how that worked.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 14 February 2013 - 11:10.


#986 jstrains

jstrains
  • Member

  • 1,425 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:20

An article "Finally a winning car for Alonso?" appears in AMuS with technical details displayed

http://www.auto-moto...ck-6632029.html

Here a translate google translation

http://translate.goo...d...tml&act=url

#987 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,347 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 14 February 2013 - 10:34

Rosberg thinks we have a good car in our hands.

http://motorsport.ne...berg,56390.html

#988 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:21

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics
Edit: fluidic switches were used for F-duct activation, I'm sure you have an idea how that worked.


The entry to two air channels where at one speed pushes the air to one and at the other to the second one. This could be used to switch DRS for example. Lotus tested it in the 2012 several times and said at the end that the switching did not occur in a way they wanted to. Lotus used air intake next or around to engine box afak.

This under chassis position is interesting as it removes air flow and place it elsewhere. If it sucks a lot of air then it will accelerate the flow under there.

Logically it is more than other smaller one, as Ferrari does have smaller one closer to sensor under the chassis. it was there as well the last year. This new one is bigger, so it has go to do with new parts that are yet coming, I assume. This could mean that :
1. It is helping air attachment around floor/side pods in order for coanda effect to maintain its attachment in all speeds. Ferrari curves the rear of sidepods aggressively to forward for which we know from RA107 that it can stall and do all kinds of crazy thing at the rear end.
2. Ferrari to come ot Barcelona with Red Bull type of exhaust arrangement and the new flow help this working.

Sorry I am writing none sense, but I guess it is fun.

for case 1, I assume that exit is behind barge board to help maintain the stable exit to rear.
For case 2, I assume that we have not seen the exit yet.

:p

#989 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,341 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 14 February 2013 - 12:31

These pics have too much detail, IMO helping the other teams.

#990 Gintonious

Gintonious
  • Member

  • 965 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 14 February 2013 - 13:17

These pics have too much detail, IMO helping the other teams.


No, it will help them very little if at all.

#991 kosmos

kosmos
  • Member

  • 6,347 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 14 February 2013 - 14:45

Posted Image

#992 discover23

discover23
  • Member

  • 3,341 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 14 February 2013 - 18:54

No, it will help them very little if at all.

why would you be so sure?

#993 Gintonious

Gintonious
  • Member

  • 965 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 14 February 2013 - 22:02

why would you be so sure?


What can they learn from the pictures of a bare hub? There are no mechanical parts installed, they would learn more about it looking at it on track.

#994 Furore

Furore
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 15 February 2013 - 00:37

Rough translation of the Piola article:

Ferrari
The 138 has shown a few new solutions, some already came as a surprise at the unveiling, while others were fitted from the second day (of testing) and then kept, which is a sign of good correlation. Like the innovative rear wing and above all the large wing profile that covers the lower part of the suspension, enveloping the axle-shaft. A solution that’s even bigger (more radical) than that of the Red Bull. The Ferrari technicians have achieved this result by enlarging a section of the profile, obtaining a longer length. The regulations dictate that the length must not exceed 3.5 times the width of the profile (car). The stepped undertray is also innovative, with a mini-flap introduced on the second day of the test. The solutions will then be integrated in new iterations (of the car) which we will see at the last test in Barcelona. A few teething problems were caused by the temperature of running, with the technicians having to resort to opening cooling slots on the end part of the engine cover.

Red Bull
Rather than an evoluition, the RB9 shows notable differences from the 2012 monocoque. Newey’s source of inspiration was last year’s Sauber, adopting their solution of channeling the flow of air between the upper and lower parts of the nose. This choice, even though it is limited by the regulations in its positioning, offers aerodynamic benefits. Even the new RB9 has side(pods) that are narrower than the maximum allowed (140cm) even if they’re not as narrow as those on the C32. This has brought about a different arrangement of the cooling system, with the radiator for the transmission and the hydraulic system placed underneath the gearbox, like on many other cars. They impact upon the tapering of the rear of the car, upstream of the exhaust, and in the internal passage of air in the lower zone of the sidepods.

McLaren
Don’t be fooled by the elegant and rounded lines of the McLaren, with the MP4-28 they have turned the page. Having abandoned their low frame, the technicians have overhauled the entire front end aerodynamically, modified the dirving position, and adopted pull-rod suspension, which was introduced on the Ferrari F2012. The design of the three diffusers underneath the frame, which are highly scooped in their lower part, is also very inventive.

Sauber
Is the Sauber only a technical exercise or does it have some real substance? The Sauber, following on (from their successful) 2012, has been a surprise. Going against the grain with everything, starting with the conservative step on the nose, to the extremely thin sidepods, almost 20cm less compared with their rivals.

Lotus and Mercedes
These two teams were the first to use the passive double DRS system, derived from the design already tested at the end of 2012. If the Lotus has made some noise with new solutions, such as the Red-Bull style exhausts and interesting aerodynamic appendages around the cockpit and underneath the frame, the Mercedes has appeared still in laboratory-mode. Will there be surprises?

Toro Rosso
In Faenza they’ve turned the page, abandoning the double floor and the horizontal front brakes, now very much focusing on the reduction of the centre of gravity in order to beat Force India, who have unveiled a simple evolution of their 2012 car.


#995 Bruce

Bruce
  • Member

  • 8,355 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 15 February 2013 - 02:15

Thanks for that Furore... :up:

#996 mfelat

mfelat
  • Member

  • 86 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:29

Thanks for the translation Furore..

#997 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,588 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:53

Rough translation of the Piola article


:up:

#998 ElDictatore

ElDictatore
  • Member

  • 786 posts
  • Joined: January 12

Posted 17 February 2013 - 04:46

Scalabroni on 2013 roll centres

Really interesting how the grid has different approaches everywhere on the car, even without big regulation changes. Looking forward to Oz!

#999 jstrains

jstrains
  • Member

  • 1,425 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:42

AMuS is speculating about the shark-mouth-like opening of the new Ferrari, but except a nice drawing brings nothing new - just 3 speculations
- air exits near the cocpit and optimises the airflow toward the end of the car (but they cannot see where it exits)
- cooling of the front part of the car
- passive DRS

http://img4.auto-mot...4e03-661103.jpg
Posted Image

Advertisement

#1000 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,954 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 17 February 2013 - 08:47

AMuS is speculating about the shark-mouth-like opening of the new Ferrari, but except a nice drawing brings nothing new - just 3 speculations
- air exits near the cocpit and optimises the airflow toward the end of the car (but they cannot see where it exits)
- cooling of the front part of the car
- passive DRS

http://img4.auto-mot...4e03-661103.jpg
Posted Image

it could be the green circle opening on the already posted tube picture:

Posted Image