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Ferrari F138: the race car


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#1001 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:12

it could be the green circle opening on the already posted tube picture:


Yeah, and someone even gave them the link to this picture in the previous story they ran about the F138.


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#1002 H2H

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 09:37

Yeah, and someone even gave them the link to this picture in the previous story they ran about the F138.


It seemed to me that those looked like outlets and would also be an 'logical' position to expel part of the air. It is also rather obvius that those are not about cooling the driver itself.

#1003 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 10:30

Scarbs on the slot

Edit: Saying it's a simple solution to prevent the build-up of a boundary layer of air below the nose, and other teams had it in previous season, though as different implementations. No mention of the ducts H2H found, unfortunately.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 February 2013 - 10:34.


#1004 nosecone

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 11:00

Scarbs on the slot

Edit: Saying it's a simple solution to prevent the build-up of a boundary layer of air below the nose, and other teams had it in previous season, though as different implementations. No mention of the ducts H2H found, unfortunately.

:up: So it is nothing spectacular and only a aerodynamik gimmick to decrease/avoid lift created underneath the nose?

Edited by nosecone, 17 February 2013 - 11:05.


#1005 H2H

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 12:21

Back for quick look before the last ski race and thanks for the link from Scarbs.

I'm pretty convinced that Scarbs is spot on the aero side. I remember Newey talking about the roll hoop air intake and the flow seperation problems they had with it the feeding until they came to the modern, seperated solution. (BTW look also at the modern sidepod inlets) After roughly 8.00 Scalabroni takles a similar question in a different area. So this explains pretty well why Ferrari decided to go for this solution.

One of Scarbs graphics shows the negative effect pretty well.

Posted Image

The smaller question is how things look inside the chassis and how they expel that air. We will see.

P.S: Could somebody tweet the picture I took out from the vidoe and edited to Scarbs account? I seems that you can no longer comment...

Edited by H2H, 17 February 2013 - 12:24.


#1006 jstrains

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 12:56

Maybe that was 1 of the reasons RB had a slot on the upper part of their nose in 2012...

#1007 V3TT3L

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 12:56

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Speculation:
> You can see some [black] vents beside the driver's seat, under Hublot. So i'll will call it Hublot vents, similar to the Acer ducts.
> The front slot might be connected to it, that by the third photo, shows that the vent is also connected to the back of the car [exhaust]
> The proof is that when the car burndt, the smoke/fire also went out through it [Hublot vents].
> So the front slot might go through the entire car, somehow, the exhaust operates sucking the air under the nose of the car, creating therefore a bigger low pressure zone and consequently downforce.
> Another evidence is -even though the test started at temp of 6°C- Massa complained that the driver's zone has too hot. Which means the slot is not directed to the cockpit, but channeled somewhere else.
> The speculation conclusion is the aero process starts at the back of the car, with the exhaust sucking air through a channel that ends in the front slot of the car.

Edited by V3TT3L, 17 February 2013 - 13:36.


#1008 CoinOperated

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 13:22

Speculation:
> You can see some [black] vents beside the driver's seat, under Hublot. So i'll will call it Hublot vents, similar to the Acer ducts.
> The front slot might be connected to it, that by the second photo, shows that the vent is also connected to the back of the car [exhaust]
> The proof is that when the car burndt, the smoke/fire also went out through it [Hublot vents].
> So the front slot might go through the entire car, somehow, the exhaust operates sucking the air under the nose of the car, creating therefore a bigger low pressure zone and consequently downforce.
> Another evidence is -even though the test started at temp of 6°C- Massa complained that the driver's zone has too hot. Which means the slot is not directed to the cockpit, but channeled somewhere else.
> The speculation conclusion is the aero process starts at the back of the car, with the exhaust sucking air through a channel that ends in the front slot of the car.


Wow, interesting, would like to know more about this if true. :)

#1009 cekalas

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 13:56

> Another evidence is -even though the test started at temp of 6°C- Massa complained that the driver's zone has too hot. Which means the slot is not directed to the cockpit, but channeled somewhere else.

As i recall, the slot under the nose wasn't there for the 3 first days, only turned up on the 4th, so it wasn't cooling Felipe then which might be the reason why the drivers zone was hot and maby even encouraged the team to open it eventually, which wasn't maby the part of the plan, hoping that the cool temperatures wouldn't cause these problems.

Edited by cekalas, 17 February 2013 - 13:59.


#1010 V3TT3L

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 14:10

As i recall, the slot under the nose wasn't there for the 3 first days, only turned up on the 4th, so it wasn't cooling Felipe then which might be the reason why the drivers zone was hot and maby even encouraged the team to open it eventually, which wasn't maby the part of the plan, hoping that the cool temperatures wouldn't cause these problems.

Really don't know.

The only think I know is a small hole in the nose is necessary to cool down the brake fluid reservoirs.

Maybe the slot will be used in very hot days, to refresh the drivers.
Maybe the slot in that position generates less drag than a small hole in the nose.
Maybe there are sensors inside the slot to read the track, wing position, tire temp, etc.

Edited by V3TT3L, 17 February 2013 - 14:19.


#1011 SCUDmissile

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 14:25

Interview with Pat Fry

haven't seen this before, but sorry if it has already been posted.

#1012 Ferrari2183

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:12

I have my own theory on the opening at the front of the chassis. I think the opening is much to large and too far forward to simply relieve boundary layer buildup and lower pressure.

I think the air collected there is used for cooling the cockpit and electronics as well as being vented near the exhaust outlets where it is being aspirated by the high energy exhaust plume to create more downforce from the exhaust.

They tried this last year with their original exhaust solution with air from the sidepods but it didn't turn out so well.

Anyway, this is just my theory.



#1013 ApexMouse

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:17

Why would you want slow moving, turbulent flow thats been through the cooling processes of the car to be mixed with the exhaust plume, reducing it's energy? Unless It's being ducted to the back ofcourse.
I think it has something to do with DRS as has been theorized before. Perhaps a bit of both though...

Also, thought you tifosi might like this. Checked the last few pages and didnt see it, apologies if am moron. (way too big for img tags)
http://www.formule1....60316652.69.jpg

Edited by ApexMouse, 17 February 2013 - 16:19.


#1014 Ferrari2183

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:30

Why would you want slow moving, turbulent flow thats been through the cooling processes of the car to be mixed with the exhaust plume, reducing it's energy? Unless It's being ducted to the back ofcourse.
I think it has something to do with DRS as has been theorized before. Perhaps a bit of both though...

Also, thought you tifosi might like this. Checked the last few pages and didnt see it, apologies if am moron. (way too big for img tags)
http://www.formule1....60316652.69.jpg

The air won't be slow once it is aspirated. The high velocity exhaust flow will draw out the air and energise it to create more mass flow through the coanda chamber.

At least that was my understanding of what Ferrari attempted to do last year. Read it in an article somewhere and it was posted in the F2012 thread.

#1015 H2H

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 16:49

Back home and I collected some of my thoughts:

Posted Image

The smoke and the black spots shows pretty well how the hot gas move through the sidepods and rear outlets of the F138. As we have seen in the video the leaked video the 'Hublot' slots outboard of the drivers seat are fed by air coming from the sidepods. No wonder that it smokes through them. No smoke rises out of the cockpit and it had better be that way!

I split the post as it became to long, part 2 is the interesting one.

Edited by H2H, 17 February 2013 - 17:06.


#1016 H2H

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 17:06

I just have to repost things as it is quite funny how easily one does miss obvious things..

Posted Image

I encircled the potential outlet but did not pay to much attention on the spot at 10 o'clock from it to which it seems to point. Of course it could be just a duct to do some wiring but it all feels a bit strange. Keep in mind that you can see no outlet further aft/downflow.

Posted Image

If the floor is designed and bolted on like on the F2012 there is no way you can see those from the outside. Now I found nice pics of the exhaust channel:

Posted Image

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Interesting that they chose also to alter the channel ramp after testing the car with the nose slot. Sadly we can not see the pipe itself. A wild guess of mine would involve air getting expelled right between the pipe and the bodywork to help to influence the behavior of the exhaust plume. Of course we have nothing to support that, just a wild guess among many.

I'm still convinced that Scarbs has got it right on the aero side, but it is quite interesting to look where all that air might exit, if we can see it at all.

Edited by H2H, 17 February 2013 - 17:09.


#1017 Ferrari2183

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 17:40

@H2H, yeah, it has to vent some place (otherwise it would cease to suck air at some stage) and preferably in a low pressure area.

Like you, I think that Scarbs has it spot on with regard to the aero at the front but the opening is much to large and too far forward for its sole purpose to be boundary layer build up relief. At the speeds these cars travel the boundary layer that far forward would be a couple of mms max.

Anyway, I can't see any changes in the exhaust ramp from the pics you've posted. Maybe you can point them out.


#1018 AlexS

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 19:56

I don't agree. Raised noses aren't new, so why now?

#1019 Ferrari2183

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 20:21

I don't agree. Raised noses aren't new, so why now?

Red Bull have been doing it for ages and it is common for small aircraft to install boundary layer trips on the wings called turbulators.

This is nothing new and I think it is high time Ferrari do something like this to alleviate the understeer tendency of their recent cars.

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#1020 One

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 21:15

As i recall, the slot under the nose wasn't there for the 3 first days, only turned up on the 4th, so it wasn't cooling Felipe then which might be the reason why the drivers zone was hot and maby even encouraged the team to open it eventually, which wasn't maby the part of the plan, hoping that the cool temperatures wouldn't cause these problems.


True.

it is more likely that because on the forth day the slot was made open the car started burn. Meaning that the system has disturbed the airflow in the sidepods more than what engineers have expected.

#1021 fabr68

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 21:17

@H2H, yeah, it has to vent some place (otherwise it would cease to suck air at some stage) and preferably in a low pressure area.

Like you, I think that Scarbs has it spot on with regard to the aero at the front but the opening is much to large and too far forward for its sole purpose to be boundary layer build up relief. At the speeds these cars travel the boundary layer that far forward would be a couple of mms max.

Anyway, I can't see any changes in the exhaust ramp from the pics you've posted. Maybe you can point them out.


I agree. The boundary layer relief inlets are like coin slots (Red Bull) compared to the hood scoop like air entrance Ferrari put under their nose. I think the opening is large enough that it could serve multiple purposes (besides boundary layer relief).

Edited by fabr68, 17 February 2013 - 21:18.


#1022 BigCHrome

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 22:26

You don't want that "used" cooling air anywhere near the floor/diffuser/exhausts.

#1023 Ferrari2183

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:48

You don't want that "used" cooling air anywhere near the floor/diffuser/exhausts.

If we have a look at both the F2012 and the F138 and where cooling air is vented it is apparent that is low down at the rear of the car. So I ask, would you prefer the cooling air as is in that area or somewhat energised (aspirated) by the high velocity exhaust flow?

I know it is a lot more complicated than we are discussing here but it is just a theory of mine...

#1024 H2H

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 16:03

Yesterday...

GEORGE ‏@Gixu78
@ScarbsF1 the nose slot from Ferrari F138 could be related with this hole?just asking! pic.twitter.com/ncwRQOG3


Craig Scarborough ‏@ScarbsF1
@Gixu78 that 'hole' is to mount the lower side impact protection


Good to see that cleaned up and another area eliminated. Interesting to see how Ferrari mounts that protection, I never payed much attention to that not even on the RBR. Apart from venting into the cockpit there remain now only a couple of possibilities.

BTW: My wild guess, more theory the practice was about using fresh ducted air vented out just upstream over the end of the exhaust pipe to manage the plume. Ideally the inlet would act like letterbox slot as described by Scarbs:


So the team has sought to offset some of problems with this design. Red Bulls solution is to create an aero effect to aid the transition between nose and chassis. This starts with the letterbox inlet, which as Newey explained at the launch is ‘primarily’ for driver cooling. The rules permit one opening to the nosecone for the purposes of driver cooling. Normally this is an oval hole in the tip of the nose. But on the RB8 this is a 25cm wide narrow slot and probably only 5mm or so high. As Newey admits, some of this airflow does pass into the cockpit to cool the driver. But what Newey would probably describe as the secondary effect of the slot, is to allow for the rounded leading edge above the inlet. When airflows runs up the nose it hits this leading edge and curls under it, forming a bubble of recirculating flow. This rotating cylinder of airflow helps to keep the upper airflow aligned and attached to the flat top of the chassis. This is a simple and copyable solution. I believe this would work with or without the slot. As the upper section of nose cone bodywork is largely a cosmetic panel and not part of the crash structure. It could be changed without re-crash testing. Sauber have found a similar solution on their nose.


At low speed the inlet would let most of the air in (might be accelerated by using a Venturi tunnel) and vented out between bodywork and exhaust pipe to control the plume at low speed when it delivers the highest % of performance. At high speed it would behave like the letterbox slot. Arguably the best position for it would be right below the bodywork of the sidepod inlets. It would actually not be something all to fancy to develop, however space comes at a premium in those modern pods, so it has it's obvious drawbacks.

This air skirt would increase the sealing of the channel we see behind the exhaust pipe, making it behave more duct-like without running into the regulations which of course try to limit the effect of exhaust blowing and ban certain elements in that area. Unsurprisingly the Caterham solution has raised some eyebrows...

Edited by H2H, 18 February 2013 - 16:08.


#1025 judd

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 17:38

Remember hot air rises, so when the car is stationary the smoke (and heat) will take what ever path they want. Now this could be very different to the path the air might take when moving forward.

#1026 oetzi

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 22:54

Remember hot air rises

If that was true, this forum would be miles up in the stratosphere.

#1027 Mc_Silver

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 23:24

I just watched an interesting video. Sorry if it is already shared.



#1028 BigCHrome

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:27

If we have a look at both the F2012 and the F138 and where cooling air is vented it is apparent that is low down at the rear of the car. So I ask, would you prefer the cooling air as is in that area or somewhat energised (aspirated) by the high velocity exhaust flow?

I know it is a lot more complicated than we are discussing here but it is just a theory of mine...


I'd want that cooling air as far away as possible from my important parts (diffuser, floor, exhausts, etc.). Maybe there could be a slight benefit by introducing extra mass, but it's just introducing extra factors to an area that is already hard to model.

#1029 four1

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:36

I just watched an interesting video. Sorry if it is already shared.

That is a fantastic video. Thanks for posting.

Wow, for a non-engineer type like me, I am amazed at what can be done with fluid motion as evidenced by this video. Also helps me to understand a lot more about the role that the front wing plays in all this.

#1030 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:12

If that was true, this forum would be miles up in the stratosphere.

:lol:

I just watched an interesting video. Sorry if it is already shared.

Posted Image

I need to watch that again. Tomorrow. Sober.

#1031 kosmos

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:07

The Acer duct it's now the UPS duct.

http://www.ferrari.c...ia-ferrari.aspx

Edited by kosmos, 19 February 2013 - 08:11.


#1032 medeni73

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:16

new exhaust on Ferrari according to AMuS

#1033 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:27

new exhaust on Ferrari according to AMuS


Der Auspuff ist bereits die dritte Version. Die Endrohre sind nun mehr in die Seitenkästen eingebettet und liegen weiter vom Diffusor entfernt. Die Ausbuchtung, in der der Auspuff liegt, ist nur noch angedeutet.


No pix, but they are saying, "The exhaust is already their third version. The tail pipe is now embedded into the sidepods and is farther away from the diffusor. The bulge is now only hinted at"

#1034 RedOne

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:28

new exhaust on Ferrari according to AMuS

"The exhaust is the third version. The tailpipes are now more embedded in the side pods and are farther away from the diffuser. The bulge, in which the exhaust is, there is only indicated."

#1035 medeni73

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:29

Posted Image

#1036 Richard T

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:33

I hope that UPS logo is only interim version :rolleyes:

Hope we get more pictures soon!

#1037 medeni73

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:34

Posted Image

#1038 toxicfusion

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:35

UPS ducts! :lol:

#1039 jrg19

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:36

Nose different too?

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#1040 medeni73

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:37

UPS ducts! :lol:


Better than ooops ducts :drunk:

Now we need to see if the hole under the nose is still there...

Edited by medeni73, 19 February 2013 - 08:39.


#1041 jstrains

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:37

UPS duct replaces acer duct... AMuS reports new parts on the F138, 3rd version of the exhaust, its exits are more sunk into the side pods and more distant from the difusor. The cut in the sidepods where the exhaust exits are is just fictional now :wave:

#1042 Louis Mr. F1

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:55

brown colour logo on a Ferrari :eek:

#1043 oetzi

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:17

Nose different too?

Looks like either the nose is wider, which I doubt, or the wing supports taper in more under the Kaspersky logo.

#1044 Obi Offiah

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:21

I just watched an interesting video. Sorry if it is already shared.

Brilliant video, thanks for posting it Mc_Silver. :up:

I think the difficulty/negative elements (no pun intended) with these designs will be in flow re-attachment and scope to progress the development the car as the season continues.

#1045 jstrains

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 09:45

Here some pix of today's car

http://img2.auto-mot...4f01-662075.jpg
Posted Image

http://img1.auto-mot...6a7b-662121.jpg
Posted Image

http://img3.auto-mot...3b6b-662115.jpg
Posted Image

http://img2.auto-mot...1a19-662251.jpg
Posted Image

Edited by jstrains, 19 February 2013 - 12:25.


#1046 CoinOperated

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:03

Funny how FedEx was their sponsor for years and now they switched to UPS. :p

#1047 Spa

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:19

The hole is still there, that's a good sign I guess...
On the other hand, that new Williams car is so beautiful, it seems like a blue Ferrari, at least the front end is quite similar...

Cheers! ;-)

#1048 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 13:38

No Hublot slots today, it seems.

#1049 One

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 15:24

:up:

I just watched an interesting video. Sorry if it is already shared.



#1050 HPT

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 16:03

I just watched an interesting video. Sorry if it is already shared.


Wow. What does this mean? That Ferrari has such a system? That such a system is possible but no one knows who has it?

Also, what is to stop engineers copying it now that it is public information? Perhaps it isn't as simple as it looks?

Any idea?