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Looking for a Villeneuve photo: Montreal 1981


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#1 villeneuvefan

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 14:54

Can anyone assist? I am looking for photos of Gilles at Montreal in 1981. He crashed and continued on with various pieces coming off as he progressed. There was a great black and white shot of him looking past his totally bent front wing at speed in the rain. I had it but unfortunately it was damaged recently in a flood. Can anyone out there assist me in replacing it or coming close?

Thanks a lot!


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#2 ktrhe

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 16:02

I hope this picture comes close. Its the only one what I have on my HD of Villeneuve in Canada 1981

Posted Image

Cpoyright: unknown

Edited by ktrhe, 26 December 2012 - 16:24.


#3 villeneuvefan

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 18:40

I hope this picture comes close. Its the only one what I have on my HD of Villeneuve in Canada 1981

Posted Image

Cpoyright: unknown

That is it! Thanks a lot!

#4 ReWind

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 19:14

From the WWW (thanks to Google):

Posted Image

Posted Image

(Source)


#5 villeneuvefan

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 20:16

From the WWW (thanks to Google):

Posted Image

Posted Image

(Source)



You cannot imagine how many times I have searched Google for this without success! Clearly your search criteria were better than mine!

#6 ReWind

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 20:32

Clearly your search criteria were better than mine!

Gilles Villeneuve Montreal 1981
nothing else...


#7 D-Type

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 23:07

You cannot imagine how many times I have searched Google for this without success! Clearly your search criteria were better than mine!

Apparently Google is somehow divided by country so where you are affects what you see.

#8 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:09



#9 RA Historian

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:59

Looked closely at the shots at the far end of the island by the railroad bridge and there I was, snapping away in the rain. Remember the race well, Laffite won in a Ligier, Watson was second, with Gilles third. It was VERY wet. I have a number of fine color transparencies of Villeneuve in the wounded Ferrari.
Tom

#10 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 19:44

Looked closely at the shots at the far end of the island by the railroad bridge and there I was, snapping away in the rain. Remember the race well, Laffite won in a Ligier, Watson was second, with Gilles third. It was VERY wet. I have a number of fine color transparencies of Villeneuve in the wounded Ferrari.
Tom



RA Historian,

I think that you would make a number of people out here very happy if you can be persuaded to share these pictures with us.
Yet I can understand it if you rather keep them for yourself too since that will likey mean release every kind of profit you could perhaps make with it.



I am still, to this day in doubt about this performance of Gilles on that wet day in Canada.

One part of me, the safety concerned fan wonders if this wasn't an act of utter foolishness that fortunatley didn't end into a drama.

The Gilles fan in me still can't comprehen how he was able to drive that scrapheap so fast as he did in those weather conditions and the knowedge that these first generation turbocharged engines were notoriously tricky in response etc. If it comes to showing car control, this drive at Canada must rate equal to what he did with that 126CK(ontraption) in Monaco and Spain.

I can't make up my mind what I must say first. My feelings above are stated reamdomly, in a not pre-arranged listing.


Henri

#11 D-Type

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 21:40

I totally understand your dilemma.

On the one hand, we loved him for having the spirit to do things like this and the 'three wheels on my wagon' at Zandvoort in 1979. And he also gave us Jarama in 1981.

But on the other hand, things like this can be bloody dangerous!

#12 scags

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:33

I guess they couldn't change a nose in 10 seconds in '81

#13 villeneuvefan

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:40

I guess they couldn't change a nose in 10 seconds in '81


I too would be delighted to see more photos. I was there that day and his performance was unbelievable. Check the video; others with cars in one piece were spinning off and he was passing them! I shared the video with my son who was born in 1980 and is a fan (addict). He loved it.

I think it hard to judge using today's standards. In today's world no way it would be allowed. Neither would the wheel banging duel with Arnoux! It is just a different time.

I am a huge model collector and there is an inexpensive series in 1/43 by Brumm that has different versions of the car as the race progressed. Great theme.

This entire thread is outstanding!

#14 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:03

I too would be delighted to see more photos. I was there that day and his performance was unbelievable. Check the video; others with cars in one piece were spinning off and he was passing them! I shared the video with my son who was born in 1980 and is a fan (addict). He loved it.



Yesterday I posted that I was still in doubt about how to feel about this display of virtuoso.

One rule I erased and didn't post was this:
"Being blinded by that wing he had little view and so easily could have rear-ended an innocent competitor"

And then it occurred to me: Should such have happened that would mean that Gilles, with view largely blocked, was FASTER then an untroubled driver with clear view !!!!
In that horrible Ferrari 126CK !!!!

Again, I can't help having doubts. But knowing how awful bad that 1981 Ferrari was, Monaco and Jarama are rated as miracles by Gilles. But driving that car in the rain in Canada and ending third? Equals Jarama and Monaco for me instantly.



Not to downgrade Gilles perfomance that day, but there was another magnificent display of great driving that day that by now is largely ignored and forgotten.
I already mentioned that the first generation of turbocharged engines were difficult to control, most certainly in the rain.
Ever so often it is stated how bad Alain Prost was driving in the rain, most of all this being said when compared with Senna because Alain retired in Silverstone '88 in the rain while Senna won.
But Alain actuallaly lead the Canada 1981 GP in the rain with a Turbo Renault before his car let him donw and he had to retire. The Renault was a better car then the Ferrari. But nevertheless the fact that Alain retired from a wet race in the lead with that car is an incredibel acjhievement in itself as well.

Alain and Gilles in the rain at Canada 1981, two of the most heroic efforts ever in the early days of the turbo F1 era.


henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 28 December 2012 - 08:04.


#15 ChrisJson

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 14:17

But Alain actuallaly lead the Canada 1981 GP in the rain with a Turbo Renault before his car let him donw and he had to retire. The Renault was a better car then the Ferrari. But nevertheless the fact that Alain retired from a wet race in the lead with that car is an incredibel acjhievement in itself as well.



henri



Although Prost led some laps at the beginning of the race he was actually in
fourth place nearly a minute down on Lafitte when Mansell, who had made a
gamble on slick tires, took him off the track at the hairpin.


Christer

#16 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 15:00

Although Prost led some laps at the beginning of the race he was actually in
fourth place nearly a minute down on Lafitte when Mansell, who had made a
gamble on slick tires, took him off the track at the hairpin.


Christer


OK ???
Have to check my archives again on that.
I recall to have the info I quoted from the now defund Grand Prix International Magazine which had a large picture of Prost in the rain and I could have sworn that it stated Prost retired from the race while leading. Must verify that but if you are right, then I stand corrected and I do appreciate it you're pointing it out to me.
Of course, It makes Gilles' performance even more extra-ordinary...

Henri

#17 RA Historian

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 15:19

I think that you would make a number of people out here very happy if you can be persuaded to share these pictures with us.
Yet I can understand it if you rather keep them for yourself too since that will likey mean release every kind of profit you could perhaps make with it.

I appreciate the request, but a couple years ago made it my policy not to post images anywhere on the 'net because I was discovering that they were being poached. I found them showing up in various places not only unattributed, but also with complete ignoring of my copyright. Further, since I do a small business selling my images world wide, it would not be fair to those who bought to be giving them away elsewhere. Hence, I cannot post.
Tom

#18 ChrisJson

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 15:43

Of course, It makes Gilles' performance even more extra-ordinary...

Henri



Jackie Stewart, who was commentating on canadian tv, was sure he was
going to be black-flagged when the front wing obscured his vision but
fortunatly for Gilles it flew off just before he passed the officials at the
start/finish line. It was great luck that he drove those two laps for himself
or it could very well turned out as badly as the Prost/Mansell incident.
He nearly lost it in the hairpin when the wing departed and had anyone
tried to pass him then he could well have gone the same way as Prost.

Nigel Mansell told Barry Gill in an interview from the pits that the Michelin
wet tires was much, much better than the Good Year ones so that was the
reason they took the chance on dry tires.

It also explain why the Williams´s (sorry Doug!!) and the Brabhams were
so bad at this race.


Christer

#19 ChrisJson

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 15:45

Hence, I cannot post.
Tom



Watermark not an option?


Christer

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#20 D-Type

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 16:41

Watermark not an option?


Christer


I believe watermarks can be fairly easily removed.

#21 Duc-Man

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 16:49

I am a huge model collector and there is an inexpensive series in 1/43 by Brumm that has different versions of the car as the race progressed. Great theme.


Brumm even made a version with the damaged front from that race in an 1000 piece edition.

#22 alansart

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 16:55

Brumm even made a version with the damaged front from that race in an 1000 piece edition.


http://www.brumm.it/...7/S0705-002.jpg


#23 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 18:17

I appreciate the request, but a couple years ago made it my policy not to post images anywhere on the 'net because I was discovering that they were being poached. I found them showing up in various places not only unattributed, but also with complete ignoring of my copyright. Further, since I do a small business selling my images world wide, it would not be fair to those who bought to be giving them away elsewhere. Hence, I cannot post.
Tom



That copying deal is something I am familiar with.
When you look on the web for pictures of the March-Porsche 90C and March-Alfa Romeo 90CA I think that one out of two is taken from the stories I published about these cars on 8W. I even found one forum that had capsuled the Porsche site in a single, large post within a forum post, taking some 10 or so picturer too. And the writer suggesting that he gave a short review on the 90P for his fellow forumers.

So I can understand your answer. Thanks a lot for your willingness to explain and I'm sure that most, if not all of us regret it, but will understand why.

Henri

#24 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 18:23

Jackie Stewart, who was commentating on canadian tv, was sure he was
going to be black-flagged when the front wing obscured his vision but
fortunatly for Gilles it flew off just before he passed the officials at the
start/finish line. It was great luck that he drove those two laps for himself
or it could very well turned out as badly as the Prost/Mansell incident.
He nearly lost it in the hairpin when the wing departed and had anyone
tried to pass him then he could well have gone the same way as Prost.

Nigel Mansell told Barry Gill in an interview from the pits that the Michelin
wet tires was much, much better than the Good Year ones so that was the
reason they took the chance on dry tires.

It also explain why the Williams´s (sorry Doug!!) and the Brabhams were
so bad at this race.


Christer



Christer,

Austrian journalist Heinz Prüller writes GP Annuals since 1972 or thereabout and he did one in 1981 too. The series is still going on nowadays. He was on good terms with Gilles as well and after the race at Canada he told Gilles that there had been talk about him being blackflagged. Gilles then answered with a big smile: "How was I supposed to see that flag?"

Brilliant reply.....

Henri


#25 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 18:34

Although Prost led some laps at the beginning of the race he was actually in
fourth place nearly a minute down on Lafitte when Mansell, who had made a
gamble on slick tires, took him off the track at the hairpin.


Christer



OK ???
Have to check my archives again on that.
I recall to have the info I quoted from the now defund Grand Prix International Magazine which had a large picture of Prost in the rain and I could have sworn that it stated Prost retired from the race while leading. Must verify that but if you are right, then I stand corrected and I do appreciate it you're pointing it out to me.
Of course, It makes Gilles' performance even more extra-ordinary...

Henri



Christer,

I can't dig up that edition of Grand Prix International I mentioned in my first reply that I requoted.
Did look in another book (Grand Prix Story 81 by Heinz Pruller) and that stated that Prost retired while in fourth place.
So you are entirely correct and I stand corrected. Thanks for teaching me a lesson.
Pruller did state however that the duel between Prost and Lafitte for the lead was a great one.

Nevertheless, my respect for Prost's achievement that day goes from a 9 to an 8. (out of 10)
Gilles remains at 10......

Henri

#26 PCC

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 19:47

...an act of utter foolishness that fortunatley didn't end into a drama.

I take your point Henri, but back in the days when I fell in love with racing, that description pretty much summed up the whole sport - on a good day! :D

#27 Duc-Man

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 13:55

Christer,

Austrian journalist Heinz Prüller writes GP Annuals since 1972 or thereabout and he did one in 1981 too. The series is still going on nowadays. He was on good terms with Gilles as well and after the race at Canada he told Gilles that there had been talk about him being blackflagged. Gilles then answered with a big smile: "How was I supposed to see that flag?"

Brilliant reply.....

Henri

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What wonders me is how the car stayed on the track with that damaged front wing. Looking at how much drivers struggle today when just a part of the wing is gone. Or were the wings not realy that important due to the ground effect?

#28 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 15:48

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
What wonders me is how the car stayed on the track with that damaged front wing. Looking at how much drivers struggle today when just a part of the wing is gone. Or were the wings not realy that important due to the ground effect?




Looking on how the wing was angled on Gilles car, I think that if anything, it provided more downforce then lift, be it of course in a very inefficient manner, high drag etc.
As for the difference between the current cars and the ones of the past: the only thing I can think about is that in 1981 the cars may have had a bit more weight on the front axle because of being more heavy and the drivers being positioned more forward in the cars then nowadays. The Ferrari 126CK had an aluminum tubs with sheets over it monocoque so it was more heavy then a current monocoque. Just some thoughts, Don't know how far I'm off the truth....
And with the `normal `noses of that time, sloping down to the front of the nose tip instead of thse hideous high noses of today, the nose itself also generated a bit more downforce then those ugly high noses.

the 1981 Ferrari was definitely not the most beautiful F1 car of that year but to me it is more eye appealing that any of the hideous looking cars of the past 5 to 7 years.

Front wings in the heydays of groundeffects provided little, if any downforce. There were several cars in 1979, 1980 and 1982 that raced without them. Had it been beneficial to have them on for whatever reason, they would have been.....


Henri