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Drivers with great natural speed who lacked in other departments


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#51 2ms

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:35

No - lacks the dedication. Like spending three days before the USGP this year in Vegas. Such a freakish talent though that it's not really apparent. Should have won the '08 title but turned off having climbed the mountain and chillaxed; given the Ferrari was good enough to push Massa to within a midge's minim of the title, Raikkonen should have won it by Monza.


To me the should-have-wons were 03 and 05, by which he would have 3 times as many WDCs as everyone else except Vettel ;) But it wasn't his fault.

2008 there's no reason to assume he didn't do his best. He's an oversteer driver and Massa a heavy understeer driver. The suspension change was just what the doctor ordered for Massa and just what the doctor warned against for Raikkonen (that's why the tire warming problems were gone they switched Raikkonen's car back to the old design). Look back on the history of that season. I wouldn't be surprised if the experience was the biggest cause of Ferrari switching back so extremely to the 1st driver, 2nd driver approach (and, relatedly, why Massa's been nowhere so often since).

Anyway, there's way too much talk about 2008. It seems to be the place people who don't like him see opportunity for criticism. To me, Alonso din't do any better that year and it's not as if it was as bad as Hamilton 2011 etc -- he obviously had lot of bad luck (e.g. rear-end in pits from Hamilton), the infamous suspension mistake, yet was still 3rd in WDC.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 12:49.


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#52 corf

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:02

Hamilton seems to be the perfect answer to the OP, Fastest driver with not enough success for his raw speed.

#53 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:06

Agreed. I'm surprised OP didn't mention him, he's the classic example of the thread title.

But there seems to be some discrepancy in how people are interpreting this thread.


Raikkonen jumped into my head too. Even this year was a good example. He was often out qualified and outpaced by Grosjean but we all know he is a far superior racing driver in every department on his day.

Maybe perceptions of laziness in Kimi's persona work against him though.

:lol: :rolleyes:
That 'wrong development path' didn't seem to stop Massa getting within a gnat's cock of being WDC.


True. That was Massa's best year but Kimi underperformed also. Backs up his 'not making the most of his potential'-ness.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 December 2012 - 13:08.


#54 2ms

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:21

That was Massa's best year but Kimi underperformed also. Backs up his 'not making the most of his potential'-ness.


Are there particular reasons why you say this, or have you accepted it in large part as gospel from this predominantly British forum where the proportion of Alonso and Hamilton fans is far greater than in other forums from countries less focused on British drivers and their teammates?

p.s. if Raikkonen didn't dominate his teammate this season then I don't know what dominating a teammate is. More 200% as many points scored. Along with defeating all McLs, a Red Bull, a Ferrari, in a broker-than-ever lately midfield team that hadn't gotten nearly as good result in over 5 years

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 13:25.


#55 Victor_RO

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:23

How far do we go back?

Going by the list of GPwinners that didn't win a championship we can mention:

Reutemann
Peterson
Webber
Ickx
Arnoux
JPM
Gilles
Watson
Pironi

All drivers that at some point during their career had week-ends of utter domination and thus showed speed.


I wouldn't put Ickx on that list, you don't win Le Mans 6 times by having only natural speed. Particularly with the comparatively fragile cars in the 1960s-70s-early 80s.

#56 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:58

Are there particular reasons why you say this, or have you accepted it in large part as gospel from this predominantly British forum where the proportion of Alonso and Hamilton fans is far greater than in other forums from countries less focused on British drivers and their teammates?

p.s. if Raikkonen didn't dominate his teammate this season then I don't know what dominating a teammate is. More 200% as many points scored. Along with defeating all McLs, a Red Bull, a Ferrari, in a broker-than-ever lately midfield team that hadn't gotten nearly as good result in over 5 years



I've been watching F1 since the early 90s and on this forum over 10 years, way before the mid-late '00s RC Hamonso explosion so made up my own mind based on watching the full season thanks.

Re: this season Raikkonen was superb on the whole and only driver more consistent was Alonso but the Renault was better than the Ferrari over the season, hardly 'broker than ever'. Doesn't change the fact he was outpaced by Grosjean more often than I expected.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 December 2012 - 13:58.


#57 boldhakka

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:41

It seems to me that the one year Raikkonen had a WDC-capable car, he won it! Every other year the car's either been hopelessly unreliable, too slow, or in the case of 2008 got screwed up in the middle of the season by wrong development path.

Do you think some people are including (in "lacked in other departments") not having competitive enough equipment? Nonetheless, he still so handily beat so many of the other drivers being mentioned here such as Coulthard, JPM, Fisichella (i.e. was big part of the reason why they were perceived as unsuccessful) , along with being on the "WDC podium" 50% of his career, so it's not as if he hasn't been damn near just as successful as anyone else.


Simply, Raikkonen doesn't have the ruthlessness and desperation to win multiple WDCs that characterizes his chief competitors. This is a good thing in my eyes, but I can see why certain teams may view this as a downside.

Edited by boldhakka, 27 December 2012 - 14:41.


#58 ali_M

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:51

Simply, Raikkonen doesn't have the ruthlessness and desperation to win multiple WDCs that characterizes his chief competitors. This is a good thing in my eyes, but I can see why certain teams may view this as a downside.


In recent enough times, Montoya takes the award for me. Damned quick and consistently so. However, other issues as a driver got too much in the way of his success as an F1 driver.

Raikkonen is another, though he has won a championship. Nitpicking comes into play when discussing proven championship winning drivers. He could well be lacking in the dedication part where getting the most of his car is concerned when it comes to putting in the necessary involvement to get the car to his liking. However, I don't see where he lacks motivation, race pace or application come a race weekend. The fact that Ferrari's development direction went away from Kimi's preference for such a large part of the season is testament to this. He really tried that year, but the car was not to his liking. It was quite clear this was the case.

Edited by ali_M, 27 December 2012 - 14:53.


#59 boldhakka

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:09

In recent enough times, Montoya takes the award for me. Damned quick and consistently so. However, other issues as a driver got too much in the way of his success as an F1 driver.

Raikkonen is another, though he has won a championship. Nitpicking comes into play when discussing proven championships he winning drivers. He could well be lacking in the dedication part where getting the most of his car is concerned when it comes to putting in the necessary involvement to get the car to his liking. However, I don't see where he lacks motivation, race pace or application come a race weekend. The fact that Ferrari's development direction went away from Kimi's preference for such a large part of the season is testament to this. He really tried that year, but the car was not to his liking. It was quite clear this was the case.


Yeah, I loved JPM and I wouldn't have enjoyed his driving as much if his approach had been different.

I wasn't referring to Raikkonen's 2008 year, and I don't mean to suggest that his approach to races lack motivations.

But he isn't the type to go on the radio to his engineer and demand a certain driver get a penalty, or agree to have his teammates gearbox tampered with so that his own position is improved, or crash into another driver on purpose to win a WDC, or demand number 1 status, or use the press to play mind games ...

Many of his competitors are doing all of the above, and since these same competitors are widely praised by their team managements, I'm guessing some of these properties are in demand and considered useful by teams. It's not a level playing field when you hire Raikkonen because he draws the line much earlier than his competitors in these non-racing aspects. And I think this stems from Kimi being less ruthless and desperate, but we may disagree on the reasons.

Edited by boldhakka, 27 December 2012 - 15:12.


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#60 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:12

Same could have been said about Michael Schumacheer.

He could have been an 11 time World Champion...


:lol:

Don't know if that is a criticism or the biggest compliment ever.

"Michael, your failed because you should have been an 11 time champion instead of a mere 7 time champion".

#61 mnmracer

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:21

:lol:

Don't know if that is a criticism or the biggest compliment ever.

"Michael, your failed because you should have been an 11 time champion instead of a mere 7 time champion".

If he had stopped with 11 titles in 2006, he would have about the same rate as Vettel does now.
Now he only won little over 1/3rd of all the seasons he participated in.

Edited by mnmracer, 27 December 2012 - 15:21.


#62 ensign14

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:22

Reminds me of the Sports Review of the Year 1971, when Graham Hill interviewed the champion. "Jackie, you won six times this year, which meant you lost five...what went wrong?"

#63 2ms

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:41

Simply, Raikkonen doesn't have the ruthlessness and desperation to win multiple WDCs that characterizes his chief competitors. This is a good thing in my eyes, but I can see why certain teams may view this as a downside.


Fair enough. I think he would be a 3x WDC right now (ie 3x as many as anyone else 'cept Vettel) if had just had a shred less indecent car and engine reliability during McL years, and that greater ruthlessness wasn't particularly relevant in determining the outcomes of those seasons. Quite the opposite, I feel like thoughtfulness and calm-under-pressure have been assets to him at times where other drivers where doing lot of cocking up under pressures of latter parts of seasons.

Certainly much is made in the British media of an Alonso movie-villian-like ruthlessness. I've personally viewed this more as media narrative-concoction than honest assessment of what's valuable to drivers themselves. Alonso won in 05 and 06 when he had an equipment advantage not entirely unlike Vettel's lately, but was ruthlessness really an asset in there too? I'm not so sure. He hasn't won since. Culture might be a factor -- to media of one culture, psychopathic tendencies might be perceived as an exotic and brilliant strength of winners, while in another it might be perceived as a common and idiotic weakness of losers ;)

I appreciate your point though. I seem to see more negatives of ruthlessness and desperation. You more positives.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 15:48.


#64 E.B.

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:41

Reminds me of the Sports Review of the Year 1971, when Graham Hill interviewed the champion. "Jackie, you won six times this year, which meant you lost five...what went wrong?"


I thought of that too - I think it was actually Stewart's failure to match Clark's record of 7 wins that drew criticism from Graham. It went something like this:-

NGH - 7 wins is the record, you were obviously going for this. Where did you think you could have done it and it just didn't happen for you?
JYS - That's not a fair question.
NGH - Well it wasn't meant to be a fair question.



#65 boldhakka

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:52

I appreciate your point though. I seem to see more negatives of ruthlessness and desperation. You more positives.


:lol: I see them as negatives too, mate. I said the team management see them as positive and even necessary these days.

#66 2ms

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 16:07

:lol: I see them as negatives too, mate. I said the team management see them as positive and even necessary these days.


But that would be believing Ferrari PR, wouldn't it ;) Another perspective is that McL had had their fill after one season and, though Alonso apparently thinks Red Bull is The Bees Knees, they don't exactly appear to be dying for the opportunity to get him in there.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 16:07.


#67 BetaVersion

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 16:30

Remember Heinz-Harald Frentzen - speedwise on Schumi's level (or above), but, say, a little bit too lazy for the big bang.


Probably a myth that came from their time together in Sauber Mercedes Sport's Car......

For some reason, some douche spread this rubbish in F1 circles and even in 92/93 they were already talking about this on the TV broadcasts. Commentators were saying things like : "If Schumacher is this fast, imagine Wendlinger and HHF who are supposed to be faster"

But the thing is where this myth came from because what HHF once said about it was : "All I can say is that Michael wasn't always the fastest among us" and not that Wendlinger and him were faster than MSC.

HHF never showed even near the speed of Schumacher in F1.....

Mark Webber is lightning fast on his day and, it seems, on his tracks (Monaco, Silverstone, China, Suzuka), but he can't seem to keep that speed over a season, and at some tracks just seems lost.


are you kidding me? Vettel have settled on pole since the track returned to the calendar :confused:

Edited by BetaVersion, 27 December 2012 - 16:35.


#68 Sin

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 19:37

For some reason, some douche spread this rubbish in F1 circles and even in 92/93 they were already talking about this on the TV broadcasts. Commentators were saying things like : "If Schumacher is this fast, imagine Wendlinger and HHF who are supposed to be faster"

But the thing is where this myth came from because what HHF once said about it was : "All I can say is that Michael wasn't always the fastest among us" and not that Wendlinger and him were faster than MSC.

HHF never showed even near the speed of Schumacher in F1.....


Not really, Frentzen was doing damn well with Jordan, it was quite fascinating to watch him... and that had nothing to do with the Media, when I started watching F1 I did it because I enjoyed gaming and Frentzen soon became my favorite driver, different to Schumacher who always lead with Ferrari, which was not really a surprise Frentzen managed to shine in the Jordan...

When he got kicked from that team that was a huge mistake, I'm certain his career would have gone up the hill rather than down the hill if that had not happened...

anyway, Frentzen always did well compared to his teammates at Jordan

#69 BetaVersion

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 21:17

anyway, Frentzen always did well compared to his teammates at Jordan


but not when he had the best car in F1 and the guy with the same car that was doing the job for the team

The main reason I can't rate HHF very high is because he was completely dominated by JV and I never rated the canadian that high either, so......

If I were to name some recent German for the purposes of the OP's intent, I would also name Ralf, as many here already did.

His performances against JPM and Trulli were very good and I also think these 2 are qualified for the purposes of the thread.

Edited by BetaVersion, 27 December 2012 - 21:19.


#70 george1981

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 21:36

JPM for me, I think he's one of the most naturally fast drivers out there but couldn't deliver over a season. IMO he wasn't cut out for F1, he didn't seem to be able to work with McLaren to set the car up and seemed to lack the mental strength to put a title challenge together in F1.
It's surprising, he won the CART championship in his debut season and the Indy 500 in 2000 when it was an IRL event not CART so he was definitely an outsider but still won. For some reason he couldn't get it together in F1. In NASCAR he hasn't set the world alight but has managed to stay in the series at a high level which is something of an achievement, Barichello for instance has only been able to manage one season in Indy racing before he ran out of options.

#71 jj2728

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 21:38

The main reason I can't rate HHF very high is because he was completely dominated by JV and I never rated the canadian that high either, so......


I wouldn't say he was completely dominated by Jacques. Frentzen had his share of fastest race laps, more than anyone else that season so the speed was there. Villeneuve also had the benefit of having a solid first year in F1 with Williams behind him. In '98 the points spread between them was 21 to 17. I understand why some don't rate Jacques all that highly, but, he was CART and Indy 500 champion (when it meant something) before he signed for Williams in '96, so I think people tend to remember the wasted years with BAR more than anything else.

#72 BoschKurve

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 21:54

Probably a myth that came from their time together in Sauber Mercedes Sport's Car......

For some reason, some douche spread this rubbish in F1 circles and even in 92/93 they were already talking about this on the TV broadcasts. Commentators were saying things like : "If Schumacher is this fast, imagine Wendlinger and HHF who are supposed to be faster"

But the thing is where this myth came from because what HHF once said about it was : "All I can say is that Michael wasn't always the fastest among us" and not that Wendlinger and him were faster than MSC.

HHF never showed even near the speed of Schumacher in F1.....



are you kidding me? Vettel have settled on pole since the track returned to the calendar :confused:


A friend of mine in Germany said to me a few months ago, the only two drivers he saw that left him genuinely speechless were Schumacher and Frentzen when they were in F3. Frentzen was highly rated in F3, and obviously it didn't translate over to F1 as many expected.

#73 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:09

Kimi bloody fast, I don't buy that he isn't focused when he wants to be etc but either he wants to build that "I don't give a f*** about anything" image or he really doesn't give a f** about anything at times and that has hurt him.

I will never judge a person based on his personality, if he is like that then good for him. He has loads of talent and I think you just have to understand how to have him motivated. In the right environment he can be your best star, in the wrong one he can seem lazy.

The thing is that most of the F1 drivers, on their days, are outstanding. These guys are the best of the very best (except pay drivers), they win other series and compete here. Well, out of these "best of the very best" some seem to be able to have their best days more often than others. I have no doubt that all of them are really, really great

#74 Disgrace

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:11

JPM for me, I think he's one of the most naturally fast drivers out there but couldn't deliver over a season. IMO he wasn't cut out for F1, he didn't seem to be able to work with McLaren to set the car up and seemed to lack the mental strength to put a title challenge together in F1.
It's surprising, he won the CART championship in his debut season and the Indy 500 in 2000 when it was an IRL event not CART so he was definitely an outsider but still won. For some reason he couldn't get it together in F1. In NASCAR he hasn't set the world alight but has managed to stay in the series at a high level which is something of an achievement, Barichello for instance has only been able to manage one season in Indy racing before he ran out of options.


I think BMW engines were more of an issue for JPM than his temperament for instance. I also totally disagree with the poster that claimed his overtaking was his weakness, on the contrary it was one of his strengths. However, I would argue he simply did not suit the era; overtaking was reserved for the pits rather than the circuit. Then he joined McLaren where a culture exists that numerous drivers before and after him have found to be at odds with. The move ultimately killed his passion for F1.

About JPM delivering over a season, look no further than 2003, he would have won at Japan and Austria but for engine failures, the former after the Michelin advantage had been voided. I don't think there's a question of him delivering over a season at all. He was certainly prone to the odd error and hotheadedness but he was let down by his equipment far more.

Edited by Disgrace, 27 December 2012 - 22:12.


#75 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:15

I think BMW engines were more of an issue for JPM than his temperament for instance. I also totally disagree with the poster that claimed his overtaking was his weakness, on the contrary it was one of his strengths. However, I would argue he simply did not suit the era; overtaking was reserved for the pits rather than the circuit. Then he joined McLaren where a culture exists that numerous drivers before and after him have found to be at odds with. The move ultimately killed his passion for F1.

About JPM delivering over a season, look no further than 2003, he would have won at Japan and Austria but for engine failures, the former after the Michelin advantage had been voided. I don't think there's a question of him delivering over a season at all. He was certainly prone to the odd error and hotheadedness but he was let down by his equipment far more.

I was not a Montoya fan in F1 but I loved his CART run. He made everybody there look like amateurs.
I agree on all counts. He was a fantastic overtaker (you can ask MS about that..he's been on the receiving end of some wow passes from JPM), he was fast and he could deliver over a season.

He was not perfect (nobody is), he seemed to lose temper at moments but that's it. F1 lost a great driver with JPM losing his motivation and that's a pity for us, the fans.

#76 Jovanotti

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:17

Just a few sentences on Räikkönen and why I feel he shouldn't be included here: as his fan I thought for a long time that he's a superfast driver who lacks the commitment of Schuey/Alonso/Vettel and therefore will never be as successful as them. I won't doubt that he's not working as hard as these three guys, but his strong comeback-season has somehow convinced me that Kimi has been criminally underrated in that department. We hear about how excellent his feedback is, how happily he talks about setups, engine mapping and so on with the engineers and is a very likeable guy towards the team.
In retrospective, let's face it the only time he really struggled was 2008 - or four races midseason to be precise, in a time where it's far from clear what went on behind the scenes there. In Sauber, McLaren, Lotus and times at Ferrari he more often set the world on fire than not. His relaxed attitude seemed to affect neither the relationship with the team (i.e. his role as a team leader) nor the results on the track, except for this small period. That's why I'm pretty sure that after 2013 and whatever we'll be granted to see from him, we'll definitely have to revise our opinions and put him up there alongside the greatest drivers from his time.

As for the thread question: JPM, JV, Massa, Grosjean, Maldonado from the newer ones.

#77 Disgrace

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:21

I was not a Montoya fan in F1 but I loved his CART run. He made everybody there look like amateurs.
I agree on all counts. He was a fantastic overtaker (you can ask MS about that..he's been on the receiving end of some wow passes from JPM), he was fast and he could deliver over a season.

He was not perfect (nobody is), he seemed to lose temper at moments but that's it. F1 lost a great driver with JPM losing his motivation and that's a pity for us, the fans.


I wouldn't say it's entirely it, Montoya was also the first subject of some of the most blatantly manipulative penalties such as Malaysia '02 and Indy '03. The former, the first drive-thru in fact, is really the symbolic beginning of interventionist stewarding policy with regarding to racing incidents that has existed ever since.

#78 1Devil1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:22

A friend of mine in Germany said to me a few months ago, the only two drivers he saw that left him genuinely speechless were Schumacher and Frentzen when they were in F3. Frentzen was highly rated in F3, and obviously it didn't translate over to F1 as many expected.


It's the same in every other sport. You can be the king in a lower league and can completely fail in the pro leagues. There was an american football player Adu. They praised him and said of him : He will be the next Pele. I never heard of him again. This translation process is very important, you can fail to extract your god given talent or you reached your maximum before you are 25. You can find a lot of examples in sports history. So even if Frentzen was faster than Schumacher from time to time doesn't mean we lost true great. I guess there are a lot of drivers in history who had the same amount of talent as Michael but were never able to develop from a "fast talent" to a killing machine.

#79 2ms

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:26

Kimi bloody fast, I don't buy that he isn't focused when he wants to be etc but either he wants to build that "I don't give a f*** about anything" image or he really doesn't give a f** about anything at times and that has hurt him.

I will never judge a person based on his personality, if he is like that then good for him. He has loads of talent and I think you just have to understand how to have him motivated. In the right environment he can be your best star, in the wrong one he can seem lazy.

The thing is that most of the F1 drivers, on their days, are outstanding. These guys are the best of the very best (except pay drivers), they win other series and compete here. Well, out of these "best of the very best" some seem to be able to have their best days more often than others. I have no doubt that all of them are really, really great


I agree with everything you say. I only might add that it is important to consider that he has not ever been in a complete package car that was dominant like a Red Bull, a R25 or R26, Brawn, Byrne-designed Ferrari, etc. The one season where he had a truly complete car, he did win the WDC. The larger number of WDCs, by a large margin, were not only in competitive cars, but indeed very dominant cars like mentioned above. According to the logic that leads people to say Vettel isn't necessarily the best driver in F1 right now, for all we know, Kimi could be the one who has done the best job of anyone over the last 10 years.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 22:33.


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#80 1Devil1

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 22:30

I agree with everything you say. I only might add that it is important to consider that he has not ever been in a complete package car that was dominant like a Red Bull, a R25 or R26, Brawn, Byrne-designed Ferrari, etc. The one season where he had a truly complete car, he did win the WDC.


What about the Ferrari in 2008 in Massa challenged for the win? He had a good package in 2007,2008

#81 2ms

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 23:06

What about the Ferrari in 2008 in Massa challenged for the win? He had a good package in 2007,2008


The competition was relatively weak in 2008 and Ferrari shot themselves in the foot. They spent half the season with the car optimal for Kimi and half the season with it optimal for Massa. That's fine for winning WCC, but is practically guarantee for not winning WDC. Whether that happened as dumb mistake or as calculated risk motivated by the signing of agreement with Santander early in the season, I suppose we'll never know. But in any case, on average, the F2008 was the best car of season across its drivers, but not very good for either, as their two drivers had dramatically different driving styles. Perhaps the outcome explains their reticence when it comes to developing the car for both drivers equally since. Ferrari is has been about as unequivocal as can be in decision to take opposite approach ever since.

#82 BoschKurve

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 23:44

It's the same in every other sport. You can be the king in a lower league and can completely fail in the pro leagues. There was an american football player Adu. They praised him and said of him : He will be the next Pele. I never heard of him again. This translation process is very important, you can fail to extract your god given talent or you reached your maximum before you are 25. You can find a lot of examples in sports history. So even if Frentzen was faster than Schumacher from time to time doesn't mean we lost true great. I guess there are a lot of drivers in history who had the same amount of talent as Michael but were never able to develop from a "fast talent" to a killing machine.


I absolutely agree with this, and is what I've always said in other sports I've followed or participated in personally. There are tons of guys who litter the landscape that were all highly touted in lower levels of competition. When they had their chance to shine on the big stage, they just never had the ability to set themselves apart from everyone else. I view Frentzen as one of them. He was capable of some very good drives in F1, and even won several Grand Prix's. But it never really mattered as he just didn't have the killer instinct that Schumacher had. I think I might have heard/read somewhere that one of the main criticisms of Heinz-Harald Frentzen when compared to Michael was that he lacked the mental toughness that Schumacher had. He was prone to losing focus at the wrong times, or was never able to sustain the mental focus for the duration of a race. Freddy Adu is a great example. I forgot about how quickly he fell off the planet when it became apparent he was not close to Pele.

#83 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 23:45

JPM is the driver that immediately comes to mind. Clearly he was fast, but completely lacked the killer determination required to become a champion. I don't think Hamilton belongs in this category: in his case, it was always the McLaren team which always managed to find something to miss every season.

#84 discover23

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 00:02

The half a season wrong suspension broken record again...will it ever end? It was NOT half a season and that WAS NOT kimi's main problem - he had too many dnf's . The old suspension was put back and Kimi still scored less points than Massa (monza, spa, singapore, brazil) when that happened. It was simply not kImi's year.

#85 2ms

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 00:09

The half a season wrong suspension broken record again...will it ever end? It was NOT half a season and that WAS NOT kimi's main problem - he had too many dnf's . The old suspension was put back and Kimi still scored less points than Massa (monza, spa, singapore, brazil) when that happened. It was simply not kImi's year.


I didn't say the suspension error was complete explanation for Kimi's woes. Earlier I mentioned lot of bad luck (e.g. probable win turned into dnf being rear-ended in pitlane). Yes, it wasn't Kimi's year. Overwhelmingly for reasons that had nothing to do with him. More like Hamilton this year, as opposed to Hamilton last year.

#86 discover23

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 00:14

Canada was not his fault everything else he was in control of the car and the rain hits all of the cars not just kimi's. lol.
He crahed in Monaco too.. Very uncharacteristic of kimi to be honest.. You knew he was in for a bad year when in Australia, the first race of the season, he spun out twice in the dry and was lucky to actually finish the race and score.

#87 Kingshark

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 00:36

Hamilton could've won the championship every year he's driven in except 2009, amazing driver and perfectly capable of winning multiple championships. He is a good chunk faster than anyone on the grid.

Based on what? Your wishes?

#88 ayali

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 00:37

Seems like a thread that has Lewis Hamilton written all over it :lol:

Blindingly fast at times (which is a pleasure to watch) but lacking in so many departments that his talent might never come to it's full fruition
Most recent driver with great speed but lacking in other departments (most notably the brain one) was Montoya.

That said most drivers have their weak(er) sides but Lewis and JPM are the ones that spring to mind first


#89 ViMaMo

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:07

Hamilton is very fast but he messes up with the set up so often, and he makes a lot of strategic mistakes lime those two DNF in 2010, and his heroic 2007 ending.


He was, but he isnt anymore. 2012 was lost in mechnical failures and strategic failures.

Edited by ViMaMo, 28 December 2012 - 01:08.


#90 Velocifer

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:51


Montoya and Hamilton comes to mind. Great natural speed, but lacking championship temperament. (although Hamilton scraped one over Massa)

Hamilton could've won the championship every year he's driven in except 2009, amazing driver and perfectly capable of winning multiple championships. He is a good chunk faster than anyone on the grid.

That is Velocifer's argument though - he has a 20% success rate in landing titles and even that came at the death. However unlike Velocifer I'd suggest that Hamilton was not the major factor behind the other failures.

Who can deny his mood swings cost him in 2011 and in my opinion so does his ego in causing crashes, team friction etc.

Montoya is a bit of the same. Maybe the mere knowledge that they are fast is at the core of their problem; getting big-headed as a result and not being able to give up a fight when they need to for the points etc, and then pissed off when others take the points lead/wins championships which in the end spirals out of control causing them both to throw away a good thing.

#91 Mauseri

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:36

I didn't say the suspension error was complete explanation for Kimi's woes. Earlier I mentioned lot of bad luck (e.g. probable win turned into dnf being rear-ended in pitlane). Yes, it wasn't Kimi's year. Overwhelmingly for reasons that had nothing to do with him. More like Hamilton this year, as opposed to Hamilton last year.

Indeed. 2008 was not Kimi's best year, but he was still competitive. In the end he had more than usual bad luck, and did unusually many mistakes as well. I think there was certain frustation in the air and unhappiness between him and the team, as the management had already decided to replacing him with Alonso despite of winning the championship. Of course, one might blame some of that also on Kimi's shoulders, but nonetheless from driving point of view Kimi had strong pace for most of the year and was robbed from a coulpe of victories.

#92 teejay

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:51

I think 2012 proved Hamilton has finally become an almost complete driver

-Great passes with hitting anyone - check
-Tyre management - check (outdoing his "tyre god" team mate several times)
-Raw speed - check

Lets hope that Merc can build him a car to utilise this next year.

Anyhow, JPM stands out in the last decade. He was stunningly fast, but his motivation lacked, and in F1 you need to be hungry every single second you breathe the sport.

#93 maximilian

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:01

Jean-Pierre Jarier, anyone?

#94 Mauseri

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:50

Anyhow, JPM stands out in the last decade. He was stunningly fast, but his motivation lacked, and in F1 you need to be hungry every single second you breathe the sport.

I don't know how you can say lacked motivation. Maybe in the last year he started getting frustated when the results did not come. Actually I think many of these fast drivers start cracking and become unable of using all their chances when they are beat by their teammates. It's the human nature of feeling pressure. Sacrificing 2nd driver for the ego of 1st driver has been effective with Schumacher's and Alonso's teams..

#95 teejay

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:59

Anyone who packs up and walks out obviously isnt motivated to compete. I think thats a fair thing to say.

I actually really really like Monty, he was BRILLIANT in CART. I remember at Milwaukee in 98/9 (Ill have to check my memory on time/location isnt perfect) he got mega sideways coming out of T2, anyone else would of been in the wall. Not him though, caught and got on with it.

#96 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 07:17

I don't know how you can say lacked motivation.

I recall him pissing away numerous races late in the going, which indicates that his physical fitness was not what it should've been. That's one of the parts where relying on natural talent gets you nowhere.

#97 Jimisgod

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:53

Most of them are really, really short. :p

#98 jj2728

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:14

Jean-Pierre Jarier, anyone?


'Jumper'? Yes, I'd go along with that. However, for me Reutemann tops the list. Blindingly fast and unbeatable when the mood caught him, but when it didn't, forget about it. A prime example of this is how he lost the 81 championship in the final round at the Caeser's Palace GP. Another driver I'd add would be Rene Arnoux. To this day it is still a matter of conjecture as to why he and Ferrari parted ways in 1984. I'd go along with Montoya too. He had the speed for sure, but not the mentality and his NASCAR career hasn't exactly been stellar. And lastly I can't understand why people would add Hamilton and/or Raikkonen to this list. Both are WDCs and that's enough in my book for them not even to be considered. One doesn't become a WDC without being the complete package.

#99 Force Ten

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:53

anyway, Frentzen always did well compared to his teammates at Jordan


but not when he had the best car in F1 and the guy with the same car that was doing the job for the team


There was an interesting expression I once heard. "On the very top the guys that can turn sevens into eights are much more valued than guys that can turn fours into sevens".

Fisi, Trulli, and Frentzen to me always seemed like "fours to sevens" kinda guys.

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#100 bub

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 13:30

Maldonado and Grosjean spring to mind.

I think it's a bit silly to mention guys like Kimi & Hamilton. Just because you're not the absolute best at something doesn't really mean you're lacking in that area overall. I wouldn't say Webber lacks speed even though Vettel is faster. I wouldn't say Arsenal lack passing ability even though Barcelona are probably better, if you know what I mean.

Edited by bub, 28 December 2012 - 15:35.