Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 24 votes

Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4001 replies to this topic

#1 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:49

I know the mods have said previously a few weeks back there was not enough information in the public domain to warrant any 2013 car thread but I think with recent speculations from AMUS about W04 we can start one off

the article reports that

-Redbull type coanda. The reason why the 2012 coanda overheated the tyres is known. It had to do with the shape of the sidepod.
-Small gearbox with rear suspension designed so it can be changed quickly to suit the tyres.
-all crash tests passed

Thanks for this Timstr11

http://translate.goo...ved=0CDMQ7gEwAA

google translation
Quote
Mechanically the 2013er Silver Arrow has been a face. The new ultra-small gear has become ready in time and brought its first successful test runs behind. The crash tests were passed on time. The chassis has its baptism of fire in the lab already behind. The rear wheel suspension is designed so that it can change the geometry quickly when needed. The tire development requires that flexibility.

While Aldo Costa has the field of mechanical grip, about the aerodynamics is a question mark. The new Mercedes is very different from the old. One need not be a soothsayer that he is similar in many details to the Red Bull, especially around the exhaust. Course 2013 Mercedes continues with the Coanda solution. "This is the way to go," confirmed team boss Ross Brawn at the season finale in Sao Paulo. Meanwhile, the engineers know why the exhaust gases, the rear tires have heated up excessively. The side boxes were to blame. The exhaust jet was lost in free space, after he left the tailpipes and the Coanda slot. Red Bull he will continue beyond the side boxes and the bottom plate to the diffuser edge. Disturbing influences by the natural flow Adrian Newey met with two shafts, where he sucks the trending along the sidepods air into the vehicle. The same is expected from Mercedes.

Even Michael Schumacher is optimistic that many of the structural changes in the team last fall. "In the first two years, we definitely do not have the capacity to fight on several fronts. If there were problems, we had to take care of the problems. Since the development was interrupted. Only now there is an infrastructure that enables both. Properly will grab this infrastructure until 2013 and beyond. the car that we had last year, was indeed built under the old conditions. I'm talking about quantity, not quality. This has always been the reason why development stagnated. Why the last was still the case, I do not understand. Since we created the basic conditions for to come forward. But maybe have a few more cogs ineindergreifen in our structure, until that happens. "

Edited by BernieEc, 27 December 2012 - 11:50.


Advertisement

#2 maxx7

maxx7
  • Member

  • 123 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:36

Do you think Lewis will be the first to test a new car?

#3 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,969 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:39

This applies to all cars. From James Allison:

During 2013, engineers say we are likely to see more innovation around the exhaust-blowing area as well as new ideas for shaping the sidepods. But as always in F1, someone will think of something truly innovative and the rest will have to quickly engineer their own versions.

So we can look forward to lots of interesting sidepod shapes.

Edited by Timstr11, 27 December 2012 - 12:40.


#4 03011969

03011969
  • Member

  • 527 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 12:45

Do you think Lewis will be the first to test a new car?

Why would he? I think Rosberg, as the longer-serving Mercedes driver, deserves the first test.


Edited by 3011969, 27 December 2012 - 12:49.


#5 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,710 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:08

Why would he? I think Rosberg, as the longer-serving Mercedes driver, deserves the first test.


It's not really an advantage though- be the first to run in the car and you are more likely to run into early niggles that curtail your mileage. Would be a bit like Rosberg doing the early reliability donkey work, because he's been there longer and deserves to. ;)

#6 maxx7

maxx7
  • Member

  • 123 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:10

Why would he? I think Rosberg, as the longer-serving Mercedes driver, deserves the first test.

He new driver in team he need time for adaptation in work with engineers and he driving car with very good "Coanda Effect". And he can immediately tell whether good w04 compared with mp4-27.. IMHO

#7 TC3000

TC3000
  • Member

  • 1,120 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 27 December 2012 - 13:21

the google translation is a bit rough at times, so here in bullet points what the article says

- at the end of the season (2012) they (MGP) were ~1.5-2 sec behind RBR, but they expect RBR to find another 1 sec for 2013,
therefore their goal was/is to find at least 3 sec from W03 to W04.
If their windtunnel and simulation is correct, they have found half of this time already.

- the mechanical side of the car, is almost finished, and Costa seems confident, that he has a handle on it. They will have
a new very small/compact gearbox, which has been run on the dyno, and so far seems to be o.k.
All the FIA crash tests have been past with the new chassis.

- the rear suspension will have a the option to change the kinematics (camber, toe, camber gain, caster etc.) quickly, to
account for the new unknown tyres. The new suspension is/was tested in the lab (on test rigs in the factory)
and functions as anticipated. (as with all these things, performance while running on the track will be the time of truth)

- aerodynamics, is the area where most of the time has to come from, and they expect two development steps over
Christmas - New Year. Coanda is the way to go, and they say, that by now, they understand why the Coanda did not
work as intendet on the W03. Due to the sidepod shape, they lost most of the exhaust energy after it as left the
channels, and the exhaust flow went all over the place, heating up the rear tyres.
The main area of development will be sidepod shape and the connection to and the shape of the floor. the aim is to
guide the exhaust flow directly to the edge of the floor without it losing it's energy and direction.

- they will look at the RBR solutions, especially the "channels" which they believe were sucking most of the air coming
around the sidepods to the center/middle of the car, and stop it from interfering with the exhaust flow.

- M.S. basicly said, that in the first 2 years, they did not had the manpower & engineering resources to fight at two fronts
at the same time. So whenever there was a problem to be solved, it was "all hands on deck", and the development
work was stopped until the problem was solved, then the engineers could go back and work on developments.
But he says, that he does not understand, why this was still the case in 2012, as by now, they had the manpower and
structures in place, but maybe there are still some cogs missing in the total process.

- In any case, everyone seems to be well aware by now, that the time for excuses is over, they need to be able to fight
for race wins on merit/pace on a regular basis. Nothing else will be acceptable (at least for the Daimler board).

Edited by TC3000, 27 December 2012 - 18:41.


#8 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:04

Thanks for posting that TC.

Should be interesting to see if they really put together an improved airflow and exhaust flow with the W04.

I'm assuming too that they won't be going for some sort of magic bullet theory with this package, but will actually try to field a car that functions in all areas.

#9 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,560 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:09

- at the end of the season they (MGP) where ~1-1.5 sec behind RBR, but they expect RBR to find another 1 sec for 2013,
therefore their goal was/is to find at least 3 sec from W03 to W04. If their windtunnel and simulation is correct, they
have found half of this time already.

What if Red Bull finds 2 seconds? How can they possibly predict that? :confused:

Having there target to improve by 3 seconds is a good start, of course.

If someone could combine the downforce ability of Red Bull with also high straight line speed, they would have a true monster. :eek: Red Bull have been amazingly successful with car that is very slow on the straights.

#10 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 3,058 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:15

3 seconds???!!. Red Bull will gain 1 second. We were 1.5 off. 3. Seconds is a good number, we will be 0.5 seconds in front off the competitors and Lewis can run away with the championship. :drunk: Why do they always come up with these numbers. They should talk about their upgrades, and their plan to close the gap to the front runners and nothing more. It never happened before that a team became a front runner from being fifth or sixth with a stable set of rules. A realistic goal would be aiming for a podium and fluke win.

#11 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:19

I will not believe, until first race tha tthey are aware what was the problem

#12 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 3,058 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:23

What if Red Bull finds 2 seconds? How can they possibly predict that? :confused:

Having there target to improve by 3 seconds is a good start, of course.

If someone could combine the downforce ability of Red Bull with also high straight line speed, they would have a true monster. :eek: Red Bull have been amazingly successful with car that is very slow on the straights.


That's misjudgment. Renault has a top engine perhaps not as fast as the Mercedes engine. But it has a better fuel consumption and the implementation of the EBD was much easier. Also Red Bull set up their car for more downforce, getting first and then run away from the front. Abu dhabi showed the can set up their car for top speed if they need to. Ergo Red Bull using their car to be fast as possible even if this means to be slow on the straight. So you can't say add top speed in this car would be a monster. Formula One is more complex than max. downforce + straight line speed = monster

Edited by 1Devil1, 27 December 2012 - 14:24.


#13 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:26

The bigger issue I think facing MGP is not in just closing the gap to the top teams, but having a car that doesn't require a race strategy that no other team has to use due to having the tire wear under control. If they don't have, or show signs of having the tire wear in race pace under control in Melbourne, it's going to be a very long season for the team.

#14 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,759 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:34

Do you think Lewis will be the first to test a new car?


No, he will not.

He new driver in team he need time for adaptation in work with engineers and he driving car with very good "Coanda Effect". And he can immediately tell whether good w04 compared with mp4-27.. IMHO


LOL. Why would they care at all about last year's Mc?? It is not a benchmark in any way for the W04. Rosberg will split the shakedown 50-50 with LH, as usual, and I think NR will do the first day in Jerez, as is perfectly normal.

Edited by Szoelloe, 27 December 2012 - 14:35.


#15 1Devil1

1Devil1
  • Member

  • 3,058 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 14:38

The bigger issue I think facing MGP is not in just closing the gap to the top teams, but having a car that doesn't require a race strategy that no other team has to use due to having the tire wear under control. If they don't have, or show signs of having the tire wear in race pace under control in Melbourne, it's going to be a very long season for the team.


Tire were is there biggest problem. They had the pace from time to time in the qualifying even later in the season. With fuel tanks they were just slow. You are right, tire wear force them to use suboptimal strategies. If they don't get it right, they will stuck in no man's land again

#16 Rikhart

Rikhart
  • Member

  • 581 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:01

If they couldn´t even understand the basic coanda version, they expect to get on top of redbull´s ultra complex system, that took them half a season to master? ALLRIGHTY THEN!

#17 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:18

Tire were is there biggest problem. They had the pace from time to time in the qualifying even later in the season. With fuel tanks they were just slow. You are right, tire wear force them to use suboptimal strategies. If they don't get it right, they will stuck in no man's land again


The W04 is the one car I'm genuinely interested to see since most of the teams we have a general idea of what to expect. I have my doubts as to whether or not they can really get the car development in the right direction. I'm not expecting winter testing to tell us anything either. Although when I think about it now, Melbourne might not be the best place either to have any understanding of where the car is since sometimes cars look better than they really are early on.

#18 CHIUNDA

CHIUNDA
  • Member

  • 1,006 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:21

If they couldn´t even understand the basic coanda version, they expect to get on top of redbull´s ultra complex system, that took them half a season to master? ALLRIGHTY THEN!


How can they be so ambitious? By now they surely should know their place and be happy with it.

#19 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,802 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:36

IIRC I saw in the old thread that Merc has budgeted about $40 Million more for 2013 over their budget for 2012. That's a good sign and I think that should take Merc's 2013 spending ahead of Lotus/Enstone.

Edited by boldhakka, 27 December 2012 - 15:36.


Advertisement

#20 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:37

How can they be so ambitious? By now they surely should know their place and be happy with it.


The worrying thing for MGP has to be that after they came back from the August break, they were outscored by Force India 63 to 36 from Belgium to Brazil. Of course the overall pace of the car took a nosedive after Monza.

While they still finished ahead overall in the constructor's championship, that looks really bad that the second customer team has now surpassed the works team. In McLaren it could be accepted to a degree, the Force India part has to sting a bit more.

#21 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:41

IIRC I saw in the old thread that Merc has budgeted about $40 Million more for 2013 over their budget for 2012. That's a good sign and I think that should take Merc's 2013 spending ahead of Lotus/Enstone.


They are boosting the overall funding, but it's really just a case of redeploying overall money spent on their motorsports programs. They cut DTM spending and are taking those cuts and moving it over to the F1 operation.

I also don't think it's a good sign as spending a lot of money doesn't guarantee any results in F1. See Honda and Toyota. It's about whether or not they have a cohesive unit working together that is results oriented.

#22 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:54

Does anyone have a launch date?

#23 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,802 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 27 December 2012 - 15:56

Thanks, I didn't know they were cutting back in DTM.

Healthy funding is necessary but not sufficient. I think Merc finally have the processes in place to maximize their resources, so the extra funding should see some very solid ROI this coming season.

#24 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,120 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 27 December 2012 - 16:11

Does anyone have a launch date?

First day at Jerez, which I believe is the fifth?

#25 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 9,379 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 27 December 2012 - 16:11

the google translation is a bit rough at times, so here in bullet points what the article says

- at the end of the season they (MGP) where ~1-1.5 sec behind RBR, but they expect RBR to find another 1 sec for 2013,
therefore their goal was/is to find at least 3 sec from W03 to W04. If their windtunnel and simulation is correct, they
have found half of this time already.

Thanks for that info TC3000 :up:

If their predictions and calculations are correct, they are at best currently only at parity with last year regarding performance differential. Still a lot of work to do of course, a lot!

#26 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 18:15

IIRC I saw in the old thread that Merc has budgeted about $40 Million more for 2013 over their budget for 2012. That's a good sign and I think that should take Merc's 2013 spending ahead of Lotus/Enstone.

but Lotus is evolving good car, while Mercedes totally new unknown car. Tbh for me it is highly doubtful. And Lotus will have increased budget as well. And you can't forget that they need to share their whole budget between 2014 and 2013, if Mercedes will invest 2 much in 2013, then they will be behind in 2014 (and also their Windtunnel etc)

#27 TC3000

TC3000
  • Member

  • 1,120 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 27 December 2012 - 18:38

Sorry I made a small mistake, just reread the original article.

The title is : The hunt for 3 seconds
They said, that at the end of the season they were 1.5-2 sec off the RB (not 1-1.5 as I said earlier, I corrected the first post).They think RBR will find ~ 1 sec over the winter (stable rules and all that), therefore their target is to find 3 sec to be in the mix.

@V8Fireworks

Don't shot the messenger mate.
If RBR finds 3 sec, then they are screwed and too slow again. It's just what they anticipate, it's their best guess, if you like.
It's not a totally "stupid" number, 1 sec from year to year in race series with stable rules, it's not an uncommon target (DTM, WTCC etc.), but surely it's no guarantee for success. If someone can make a quantum leap forward, all others will be taken by surprise and need to play catch-up.

Edited by TC3000, 27 December 2012 - 18:48.


#28 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,153 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 27 December 2012 - 20:11

Sorry I made a small mistake, just reread the original article.

The title is : The hunt for 3 seconds
They said, that at the end of the season they were 1.5-2 sec off the RB (not 1-1.5 as I said earlier, I corrected the first post).They think RBR will find ~ 1 sec over the winter (stable rules and all that), therefore their target is to find 3 sec to be in the mix.

@V8Fireworks

Don't shot the messenger mate.
If RBR finds 3 sec, then they are screwed and too slow again. It's just what they anticipate, it's their best guess, if you like.
It's not a totally "stupid" number, 1 sec from year to year in race series with stable rules, it's not an uncommon target (DTM, WTCC etc.), but surely it's no guarantee for success. If someone can make a quantum leap forward, all others will be taken by surprise and need to play catch-up.


The issue with finding time for me when it comes to Mercedes, is that it was clear they were already being outclassed by the midfield cars (Force India, Williams, Sauber) towards the end of the season. It's nice MGP is coming out to try and set a high bar with their improvements, but it can be counterproductive for 2013 if it turns out they suffer from the same issues that plagued 2012. They would have been better off tempering expectations by aiming for the midfield teams first since they had their hands full there. Aiming for Red Bull territory is foolish since all it does is raise expectations to a high level that is going to work against them if they don't meet them.

#29 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 27 December 2012 - 21:23

What if Red Bull finds 2 seconds? How can they possibly predict that? :confused:

Having there target to improve by 3 seconds is a good start, of course.

If someone could combine the downforce ability of Red Bull with also high straight line speed, they would have a true monster. :eek: Red Bull have been amazingly successful with car that is very slow on the straights.


to be honest with the regs remaining static I will be mighty surprised if Redbull find a 1 second advantage from the first race......I don't care even if its Lord Newey we're talking about. Don't forget they have decided to reduce DRS in qualifying to equate with the zones it will be used in during the race. This will definitely take about 0.2-0.3 out of the cars and the load test for the front wing will be increased. taking this into account I doubt a team will pull 1 sec out of the bag.

#30 TC3000

TC3000
  • Member

  • 1,120 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 27 December 2012 - 23:09

They are boosting the overall funding, but it's really just a case of redeploying overall money spent on their motorsports programs. They cut DTM spending and are taking those cuts and moving it over to the F1 operation.

I also don't think it's a good sign as spending a lot of money doesn't guarantee any results in F1. See Honda and Toyota. It's about whether or not they have a cohesive unit working together that is results oriented.


Why I think, it is possible that they reshuffle their budgets a bit, I doubt somewhat that they can find 40Mil$ within their DTM project.
Even if they would shut it down completely, it´s not going to be that amount of money.
Also keeping in mind, that their 2012 DTM campaign wasn´t that stellar, I´m not sure that cutting funding there, will help them in finishing
higher up the order in 2013, and I don´t think they run in DTM just to make up the numbers either. Why they were in with a shot for the drivers title until the last race, they wound up 3rd (last if you like) in the manufacturers standing - not good.

I see were you are coming from with your thoughts, but I´m not sure, that coming out and state " We will try to stay ahead of FI & Sauber, and if all goes to plan we may even be able to get this 4th place from Lotus (Enstone team) back", will win them many friends & favors on board level. I agree, that aiming at something and delivering on the promise are two different things alltogether.
So we will have to wait and see, how it all pans out.
By signing up L.H. , they have already commited to an "all out" approach, IMO, so there is little room, to tame expectations.
I think, the recent events have made it quite clear, what the expectations on board level are. So they either live up to it, or face the possibility that the whole project gets axed. (having signed the Concord or not, does not really matter if the board make up his mind, as we have seen with Toyota,BMW and Honda).
I think. it´s no secret, that there are parts of the Daimler board, that see the F1 project critical, and questioning it´s value for the company. Why it was voted for, it was not unanimously, therefore any change in the balance of power on the board (new CEO appointed etc.), could have a knockon effect on the F1 project.
The better make it work for them fast, as they don´t know how much more time and resources they will get.
For now Daimler is stuck with this project, and the only real option in the short term is to make it work, so that they can save some face.

All other things being equal (and they may be not), Daimler would need to inject more cash, just to keep the current budget level.
Because they lost a spot in the team standings, means less cash from FOM. This cashflow shortfall needs to be compensated for somehow, just to keep the current budget. Maybe they sign some new sponsors, or the sponsors they have are willing to pay more, based on the L.H. signing, but this is debateable/doubtful.
The other question is, how much of this reported (and may this info is wrong) 40 m$ increase in spending goes to their new driver, maybe after all, not much extra money is left to spend on the cars/team.

Lotus (Enstone) on the other hand, will get more money from FOM, for the 4th place, so without an increase in owners/sponsors spending, they will have more moeny to work with.

Let´s see how it all shakes out, I hope they improve, not because I´m a Merc/L.H. fan, but it makes F1 as a whole more interesting, when more teams are competetive. And if the pressure is on, all the little things like strategy & pitstops have a larger effect on the overall outcome, and that´s what I would like to see - may the best team/driver win at the end, I have no preference, but I would like
to see them work hard for it.


#31 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,560 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:15

Ergo Red Bull using their car to be fast as possible even if this means to be slow on the straight. So you can't say add top speed in this car would be a monster. Formula One is more complex than max. downforce + straight line speed = monster

I know that.

I am alluding to how Vettel or even Webber can tip the car into a high speed bend using just their fingertips at the last second whilst hardly lifting at all, it's remarkable. (On the other hand, we see Alonso and Massa understeering badly through the same bend for instance.) ... and lo and behold the RBRs on occasion have taken pole at a places like Catalunya or Silverstone by 1 full second. :)

Obviously that is how, on some circuits through the RB5-8 series, how they have acheived incredible superiority. But in terms of the physical ability to do that, the reason behind the way they perform at those kinds of tracks (and even the way that adapted that to also be quick at Monza - obviously the '11 spec not the dreadful '12 spec - by punching through the corners much faster than the others and accelerating rapidly with short gearing despite then sitting on their lower top speed), it's quite amazing.

Even with just this, this grippy but draggy car, they had just about a monster (of course RBR reliability is still far inferior to Ferrari, with their strange choice for deliberately crappy KERS and so on)... if you could somehow have that "tip it in" ability in addition to straight line... you would have the next dominant series of F1 cars... of course such a thing is probably impossible, and Mercedes seemed happy (or resigned to their design choices, having ignored Red Bull specialities like flexy wings) of their DDRS philosophy and so forth and to be well down on downforce.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 28 December 2012 - 12:18.


#32 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,560 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:26

IIRC I saw in the old thread that Merc has budgeted about $40 Million more for 2013 over their budget for 2012. That's a good sign and I think that should take Merc's 2013 spending ahead of Lotus/Enstone.

Wouldn't it better to double the budget*, win for sure, and then decide what to do as the FOM riches and sponsors come their way?

* (like Honda's investment in the Brawn car to build a winner...)

Just advocating. :)

In a way, maybe it is better to have 2 dominant seasons, then 10 forgettable seasons like Toyota had.

RRA is junk after all, really isn't it?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 28 December 2012 - 12:27.


#33 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,560 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:36

The other question is, how much of this reported (and may this info is wrong) 40 m$ increase in spending goes to their new driver, maybe after all, not much extra money is left to spend on the cars/team.

That is true.

A team like Mercedes spends much more on drivers than a team like Force India (di Resta on 200k pounds!) or Williams. Sometimes you could question if this is wise. Other midfield teams that spent the house on drivers: BAR, Jaguar, Toyota (for Ralfie! :drunk: ) - not great company to be in! If they could have swallowed their pride and snapped up somelike Maldonado for the second car, with the confidence on a Rosberg as the leader, it would have done wonders for their balance sheet over the past seasons. Think of all that extra developement, surely nearing that $40m boost they have decided upon.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 28 December 2012 - 12:37.


#34 P123

P123
  • Member

  • 8,710 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:51

That is true.

A team like Mercedes spends much more on drivers than a team like Force India (di Resta on 200k pounds!) or Williams. Sometimes you could question if this is wise. Other midfield teams that spent the house on drivers: BAR, Jaguar, Toyota (for Ralfie! :drunk: ) - not great company to be in! If they could have swallowed their pride and snapped up somelike Maldonado for the second car, with the confidence on a Rosberg as the leader, it would have done wonders for their balance sheet over the past seasons. Think of all that extra developement, surely nearing that $40m boost they have decided upon.


A- They won't be paying Schumacher, so those funds get transfererd to paying Hamilton
B- They already paid part of Hamilton's retainer at McLaren; money which they will now be using to employ him for their own team.

I doubt that leaves much, if any, requirement for the rumoured extra funding to be filtered off to a driver.

#35 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,495 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:10

the google translation is a bit rough at times, so here in bullet points what the article says

- at the end of the season (2012) they (MGP) were ~1.5-2 sec behind RBR, but they expect RBR to find another 1 sec for 2013,
therefore their goal was/is to find at least 3 sec from W03 to W04.
If their windtunnel and simulation is correct, they have found half of this time already.

- the mechanical side of the car, is almost finished, and Costa seems confident, that he has a handle on it. They will have
a new very small/compact gearbox, which has been run on the dyno, and so far seems to be o.k.
All the FIA crash tests have been past with the new chassis.

- the rear suspension will have a the option to change the kinematics (camber, toe, camber gain, caster etc.) quickly, to
account for the new unknown tyres. The new suspension is/was tested in the lab (on test rigs in the factory)
and functions as anticipated. (as with all these things, performance while running on the track will be the time of truth)

- aerodynamics, is the area where most of the time has to come from, and they expect two development steps over
Christmas - New Year. Coanda is the way to go, and they say, that by now, they understand why the Coanda did not
work as intendet on the W03. Due to the sidepod shape, they lost most of the exhaust energy after it as left the
channels, and the exhaust flow went all over the place, heating up the rear tyres.
The main area of development will be sidepod shape and the connection to and the shape of the floor. the aim is to
guide the exhaust flow directly to the edge of the floor without it losing it's energy and direction.

- they will look at the RBR solutions, especially the "channels" which they believe were sucking most of the air coming
around the sidepods to the center/middle of the car, and stop it from interfering with the exhaust flow.

- M.S. basicly said, that in the first 2 years, they did not had the manpower & engineering resources to fight at two fronts
at the same time. So whenever there was a problem to be solved, it was "all hands on deck", and the development
work was stopped until the problem was solved, then the engineers could go back and work on developments.
But he says, that he does not understand, why this was still the case in 2012, as by now, they had the manpower and
structures in place, but maybe there are still some cogs missing in the total process.

- In any case, everyone seems to be well aware by now, that the time for excuses is over, they need to be able to fight
for race wins on merit/pace on a regular basis. Nothing else will be acceptable (at least for the Daimler board).


The important factor at this stage is to get the base package right so they can with a good degree of confidence stick to their development programs or even accelerate these as needed. They should as much as possible avoid situations that lead to confused head-scratching due to the car not behaving or responding as expected.

I suspect (with a huge dose of optimism) that they will surprise the paddock - in a pleasant way, if you are a mercedes fan that is - next year. I will be satisfied with their efforts if they start the seaon off with a deficit of around 0.2 off the leading teams which I believe will still be RB, Ferrari and Mclaren. Mclaren, I am not too worried about as they will do what they do best; voluntarily shoot themselves in both feet.

Edited by femi, 29 December 2012 - 10:13.


#36 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,495 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 29 December 2012 - 10:45

That is true.

A team like Mercedes spends much more on drivers than a team like Force India (di Resta on 200k pounds!) or Williams. Sometimes you could question if this is wise. Other midfield teams that spent the house on drivers: BAR, Jaguar, Toyota (for Ralfie! :drunk: ) - not great company to be in! If they could have swallowed their pride and snapped up somelike Maldonado for the second car, with the confidence on a Rosberg as the leader, it would have done wonders for their balance sheet over the past seasons. Think of all that extra developement, surely nearing that $40m boost they have decided upon.


I don't know how much additional burden LH will place on their budget. IIRC, Merc was paying a part of LH salaries even when he was a Mclaren driver. This means until last season, Merc had 3
F1 drivers on payroll, now they have 2 so the drivers' budget might not change that much from last year.

Another factor to bear in mind is they will now need to spend less on infrastructure pieces like Wind Tunnel e.t.c.
I am a fan of Haug, but him leaving can't be a bad thing...

#37 Mauseri

Mauseri
  • Member

  • 7,540 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:02

Do you think Lewis will be the first to test a new car?

No. Rosberg knows the old car and team better so he will test first. That will also help keeping useless Lewis hype down. Lewis has all year to give his opinions, but first test is not the place.

If I remember correctly, Massa got to test first when Kimi and Alonso came to Ferrari.

Edited by Mauseri, 29 December 2012 - 11:03.


#38 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,969 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:56

I don't see the big deal with who tests the car first. Like last year, I expect they will do shakedown runs at Silverstone with both drivers before they head to Jerez.
In Jerez it will be likely Rosberg in the morning with Lewis in the afternoon on the first day.

#39 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,969 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 29 December 2012 - 13:44

This article says the AMGW04 will have a pull-rod front suspension like Ferrari's:
http://www.omnicorse...ercedes-amg-w04

Edited by Timstr11, 29 December 2012 - 13:45.


Advertisement

#40 jrg19

jrg19
  • Member

  • 6,118 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 29 December 2012 - 13:49

This article says the AMGW04 will have a pull-rod front suspension like Ferrari's:
http://www.omnicorse...ercedes-amg-w04


Is there any advantage in doing this?

#41 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,759 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 29 December 2012 - 13:53

Is there any advantage in doing this?


No, if you ask Ferrari.


#42 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,969 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 29 December 2012 - 13:57

Is there any advantage in doing this?

Scarbs explained Ferrari's system as follows:

This effectively turns the pushrod set up upside down, now the rod passes down from the upper wishbone and connects with the rocker, which is now mounted at the bottom of the chassis. According to Fry, this set up is a little lighter and has a slightly lower Centre of Gravity. These gains alone will not pay for the systems inclusion on the car, so the team claim to have found an aero benefit. The pullrod can be thinner, but the real gain is the pullrod is mounted near horizontal across the front suspension. This places it in line with the upwash from the front wing. Just as with the wishbones, its profile can be subtly altered within the rules to help control the wake from the wing and improve the airflow over the rear of the car. Despite appearances the pullrod is as effective in moving the rocker for a given wheel travel as a pushrod. The important factor is the angle between the rod and the wishbone is connected to, rather than the rods angle to the chassis.


Edited by Timstr11, 29 December 2012 - 13:59.


#43 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 29 December 2012 - 13:58

to be honest with the regs remaining static I will be mighty surprised if Redbull find a 1 second advantage from the first race......I don't care even if its Lord Newey we're talking about. Don't forget they have decided to reduce DRS in qualifying to equate with the zones it will be used in during the race. This will definitely take about 0.2-0.3 out of the cars and the load test for the front wing will be increased. taking this into account I doubt a team will pull 1 sec out of the bag.


Well but then through the DDRS Mercedes should have gained more than the other teams from the old DRS rules in qualifying.

#44 stanga

stanga
  • Member

  • 1,124 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 29 December 2012 - 15:18

Well but then through the DDRS Mercedes should have gained more than the other teams from the old DRS rules in qualifying.


Not if the gains in qualifying had to be moderated by taking into account the (very) different race conditions.

#45 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 29 December 2012 - 15:20

Well but then through the DDRS Mercedes should have gained more than the other teams from the old DRS rules in qualifying.


not sure where I read it but I seem to recall that the DDRS (As implemented by Mercedes) hampered the development path. Am sorry I don't have a link to this. in the first few races up to monaco it seems the DDRS did help them although the drivers made errors in their qualifying session in Australia and Malaysia. Rosberg then poled it at China whilst Schumi did likewise at Monaco. from then on it was downhill.

I think the DDRS implementation affected the development of the front wing as McLaren and Redbull showed there were benefits there and they also didn't implement the coanda exhaust till late in the day and never seemed to get it right. don't forget the tyre eating issues that plagued them through the whole season as well.

as far as I know the DDRS seemed to be of benefit in the first 4-5 races after that it went downhill.

Edited by BernieEc, 29 December 2012 - 15:22.


#46 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 7,969 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 29 December 2012 - 16:25

DDRS had a benefit, but the pivoting/flexing front wing which Redbull (and McLaren?) implemented later in the season had an even greater benefit according to Brawn.


#47 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 29 December 2012 - 17:04

DDRS had a benefit, but the pivoting/flexing front wing which Redbull (and McLaren?) implemented later in the season had an even greater benefit according to Brawn.

I agree....the pivoting/flexing front wing and the lack of implementation of the coanda solution was where they would have had the most gain.

#48 JensonWDC

JensonWDC
  • Member

  • 478 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 29 December 2012 - 22:22

What are the odds that they´ll royally screw up the pull-rod front suspension and some "unexpected" issues occur?


;) :p

Edited by JensonWDC, 29 December 2012 - 22:23.


#49 Rikhart

Rikhart
  • Member

  • 581 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 December 2012 - 00:24

What are the odds that they´ll royally screw up the pull-rod front suspension and some "unexpected" issues occur?


;) :p


Im more concerned about the red bull style exhaust, which is way too complicated for this team, but the pull rod should be fun too.

#50 V8 Fireworks

V8 Fireworks
  • Member

  • 5,560 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:13

Im more concerned about the red bull style exhaust, which is way too complicated for this team,

Ouch!

At one point a Samsung VCR was no match for a Panasonic one, and Hyundai car a pile of crap compared to Honda one.

Maybe things will change.

Maybe MercedesGP will win WCC in the same year Chery (not Chevy) becomes the world's number one auto maker! :eek: :up:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 30 December 2012 - 03:15.