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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#701 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:39

If he could only shut his trap about pushing the engineers for more aero, or whatewer fancy term he is using that particular day. He really is ligtning quick down on the track, but painfuly slow in the head. 28 years old multimill kid with possibly few exams short of high school diploma is asking for some shiny new aero bits because he had them on his former shiny toy, from a bunch of engineers with possibly few of PHDs on their CVs.
He just needs to shut up and drive, that is why people adore him.


I think they same thing can be said about some posters on this forum. Honestly, every driver says stuff to push the engineers. Last year Alonso was very critical of the car his team gave him. And his quot was that he wanted more down force, I doubt he really cares how they generate it.


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#702 jstrains

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:43

Here some nice Hamilton pix from motorionline.com

http://f1grandprix.m...13_02_06_25.jpg
Posted Image

http://f1grandprix.m...013_02_06_9.jpg
Posted Image

http://f1grandprix.m...13_02_06_24.jpg
Posted Image

Edited by jstrains, 06 February 2013 - 18:44.


#703 Sakae

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:00

Ross, WTF is going on in your basic engineering and assembly departments? Haven't you learned anything since last year on similar silly errors? Lauda probably is freaking out if he hasn't lost his voice already.

#704 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:18

Ross, WTF is going on in your basic engineering and assembly departments? Haven't you learned anything since last year on similar silly errors? Lauda probably is freaking out if he hasn't lost his voice already.


Don't really give a bat's axx about Lauda, but the problems they encountered are strongly indicative of this being a new design with new solutions under the hood. They carried on last year's concept with basically new input, and most of the key features of this car have been re-designed. Very typical teething problems, which are addressed on the run. That is what the first few days are for. I was looking forward though to see how they have done in the afternoon, and I find this. Pretty frustrating, to be polite. Saying that, please do read back on the problems to be a little more informed, 'assembly department', 'silly errors' have nothing to do with this. I do hope the Mummy lost his voice though.

Edited by Szoelloe, 06 February 2013 - 19:19.


#705 1Devil1

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:35

even if the car turns out to be mid-field level,Lewis will achieve some podiums surely.... :)


I don't think so. In a car that is slow as the end of last year nobody would achieve podiums even Lewis Hamilton not. Give him a car good as the first races of last year, surely he will achieve a podium. But if Mercedes is starting on the back foot again, this will be a long season for Mercedes, focusing on the next years car. In 2009 McLaren was on the back foot at the start, but they developed it in a good car till mid season, with some fine drivers of Lewis. Can't see that happening. Mercedes has a history of falling behind in the developing race. I hope he has a chance to show his class and fight for some wins. To come to your point, if Mercedes is midfield right from the beginning (in the pattern of last year) I see no chance for him to see a podium.

#706 SR388

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:46

We will be all-right.


I won't panic unless we get no running in the next 2 days.

#707 skid solo

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:52

Further- a new 5 element front wing, without additional rear downforce will likely cause balance problems.


They said at the launch the car has been designed around the new 5 element front wing so one assumes the balance will be good

#708 senna da silva

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:55

We will be all-right.


I won't panic unless we get no running in the next 2 days.


I'm not even worried about this test. If the teething problems keep cropping up into the second test then I'll be worried. I'd rather have them sort the issues now than have to deal with them later.

#709 jav

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:58

Who said they're not developing additional rear downforce to go with more front downforce? I'm sure theres lots of work going on optimising the diffuser/exhaust interaction.



Logically- Lewis did.

It would stand to reason that he wouldn't feel compelled to publically state he's pushing for more aero IF more were already on the way. It's been stated the new front wing may make an appearance at this test... I've not heard anything about a rear wing or any other rear aero parts. If you beleive Lewis comments about downforce amount to "optomizing" gains.... I think your being kind.

My only question now is do they bring the new wing out to get some data? Do they bring the new wing out to save some face? Do they not bring the wing out because they have other testing to complete having missed much of the running? Do they not bring the wing out so as not to set it on fire or smash it into some barriers?

#710 SR388

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:58

I'm not even worried about this test. If the teething problems keep cropping up into the second test then I'll be worried. I'd rather have them sort the issues now than have to deal with them later.


Great point. I mean look at Lotus/Renault last year. They missed the whole dang test last year!!!


I assume teh team was able to gather some data even in it's shorter time out there.

#711 skid solo

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:02

http://f1grandprix.m...13_02_06_25.jpg

Nasty blistering front right

#712 senna da silva

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:03

Great point. I mean look at Lotus/Renault last year. They missed the whole dang test last year!!!


I assume teh team was able to gather some data even in it's shorter time out there.


Exactly. Williams haven't even launched their 2013 car yet. :p
Keep calm and carry on!

#713 jav

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:06

They said at the launch the car has been designed around the new 5 element front wing so one assumes the balance will be good


I understand that. And I agree the front wing plays a large role in directing air to the rear. But that raises some questions.

If the front wing was absolutly vital to the overall earo package performance, testing and data gathering without it would be relatively useless. My guess is the old front wing is a reasonable substitute and the new front wing will bring some "incremental improvement". I get the sense from Lewis' comments, being made in the best possible light, that the aero needs are beyond just optomization.

#714 exmayol

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:07

At least Lewis is being more realistic, though he does often play down the car's true pace more than anyone else on the grid today. It doesn't seem like a bad car when its on the track, so thats a good start.


I think there is a lad in a red car who downplays his car even more ;)

As to the car looking good on track, that does not mean much. Last year they looked very good, at least on lighter loads, and the then we all know what happened ;)

#715 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:10

http://f1grandprix.m...13_02_06_25.jpg

Nasty blistering front right



All the cars are doing that.

http://f1grandprix.m...-jerez-2013.jpg

#716 OO7

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:15

All the cars are doing that.

http://f1grandprix.m...-jerez-2013.jpg

It's probably just 'pick-up'.

#717 skid solo

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:20

I understand that. And I agree the front wing plays a large role in directing air to the rear. But that raises some questions.

If the front wing was absolutly vital to the overall earo package performance, testing and data gathering without it would be relatively useless. My guess is the old front wing is a reasonable substitute and the new front wing will bring some "incremental improvement". I get the sense from Lewis' comments, being made in the best possible light, that the aero needs are beyond just optomization.


I guess they wanted to bed in a few of the other systems first. Time will tell but I see no reason to doubt Brawn and Aldo Costa

#718 KiloWatt

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:24

Logically- Lewis did.

It would stand to reason that he wouldn't feel compelled to publically state he's pushing for more aero IF more were already on the way. It's been stated the new front wing may make an appearance at this test... I've not heard anything about a rear wing or any other rear aero parts. If you beleive Lewis comments about downforce amount to "optomizing" gains.... I think your being kind.


Hmmm...that's not how I read the situation. Ofcourse more aero is on the way, it's not like this is their Melbourne package. Rather, I read his comments (regarding pushing for more aero) as affirmation that they do have to improve to catch up and that they won't start of among the fastest, as stated by NR as well. But granted, that's my opinion.

Respectfully, I think you may be misinterpreting the comments made about the front wing. Ross Brawn's exact words were:

the aerodynamic design philosophy has been optimised around a new five-element front wing design and a second-generation Coanda exhaust at the rear"


So they did mention the extra rear downforce.

#719 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:40

So they did mention the extra rear downforce.


It's probably also worth mentioning, that rear down force is much easier to come by. Front down force is much harder, because you need to generate down force, but at the same time minimize turbulence and drag, so you don't effect the flow around the car and over the diffuser. To generate more rear down force you just tweak the rear wing profile and try not to generate to much extra drag. You don't care how the turbulent the air off the rear gets.

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#720 superdelphinus

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:43

No

#721 Sakae

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:48

Don't really give a bat's axx about Lauda, but the problems they encountered are strongly indicative of this being a new design with new solutions under the hood. They carried on last year's concept with basically new input, and most of the key features of this car have been re-designed. Very typical teething problems, which are addressed on the run. That is what the first few days are for. I was looking forward though to see how they have done in the afternoon, and I find this. Pretty frustrating, to be polite. Saying that, please do read back on the problems to be a little more informed, 'assembly department', 'silly errors' have nothing to do with this. I do hope the Mummy lost his voice though.


Well we see where this is going; let's say that for now I disagree with you, as I suspect similarities between secondary causes behind events of last two days, and some issues of last year on Schumacher's car. (Don't be so smug, because your judgement is not much better that what most of us are guessing).

#722 jav

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:49

kilowatt -

I respect your opinion and concede I have no special insight into the future. Also- I admit to being tainted by Mercedes past and I'm on record (for some time) as expecting this season to be more of the same. While still early, I see no reason to change my persepctive and even less to start eating crow.

I agree with "of course more aero is on the way" this is obvious and true of every team. My point is no driver is going to come out this early and speak ill of their car or team. This is even more true of Lewis for very obvious and well publicized reasons.

This is why I believe his statements, given his particular situation AND the teams history, are particularly telling. He IS affirming they need to catch up as you suggest.- but what I think you and many fans are missing is... why state the obvious? Everyone knows this. The team knew this when they started designing W04. I beleive the only reason to state this is because it's the nicest way of saying- this car isn't good enough and needs more than just optomizing.

BTW- I beleive the second generation Coanda exhaust is already ON the car.... As far as I'm aware, the only missing NEW major element is the front wing - but I could be wrong.

Time will prove one of us right. I've stated multiple times as early as last year that I doubt this team and W04 will improve on what W01 did... and if that's the case, that will be 4 seasons of disappointing performances. Their problems are and have been design related. That staff hasn't appreciably changed despite this recent shuffle and from what I can tell, their current problems are still design related. I doubt anyone expected to be dealing with design issues on 2 relatively stable systems (wiring loom/brakes).

And Dans-

feel free to read back on countless pages of W03 and W02 posts that suggest rear downforce has NOT been so easy to come by.

Edited by jav, 06 February 2013 - 20:56.


#723 superdelphinus

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:51

For what it's worth the car at least 'looks' faster than last season. In a weird way it's quite a good sign that things are failing early doors - they've obviously gone marginal on quite a few components.

#724 skid solo

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:59

It's probably just 'pick-up'.


Jenson button said everyone's suffering from graining

#725 senna da silva

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:02

Personally, as Merc supporters, I think we have to temper our expectations for the beginning of the season. Points in Melbourne will be a good result as far as I'm concerned, a fifth place finish would be as good as it gets. What I hope we see is incremental improvements throughout the season because the team has stated that all of the pieces to make that happen are now in place where they weren't in the past. Podiums by seasons end should be regular. These are my expectations for 2013 and the W04. All I'd like to see in preseason testing is consistency on the tyres, anything above that should be considered gravy at this point.

#726 superdelphinus

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:02

How can you possibly say that after 2 days of the first test?!

#727 senna da silva

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:05

How can you possibly say that after 2 days of the first test?!


My opinion is based on Merc's history, the assembled team, and statements from the team. Not the two days of testing we've had.

#728 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:07

My point is no driver is going to come out this early and speak ill of their car or team. This is even more true of Lewis for very obvious and well publicized reasons.



Alonso wasn't optomistic last year


Fry was down right negative
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97841


#729 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:10

Well we see where this is going; let's say that for now I disagree with you, as I suspect similarities between secondary causes behind events of last two days, and some issues of last year on Schumacher's car. (Don't be so smug, because your judgement is not much better that what most of us are guessing).


Yesterday, they encountered a wire looming problem. They decided to give up the day because they said they need a new solution, not repairing the current one. Today, it was the same: Instead of a 3 hour repair(with the front end and all) they said they will not run more, because the will install a different solution. It was not a question of faulty manufacture or low-quality bulid. That's why I say these are typical teething problems. It does not mean they have quality or quality control problems. It means IMHO that some problems only show themselves on track. So basically, these seem to be teething problems. Untried solutions, but nothing that brakes their season so far. If I had to choose, I would gladly take these problems than Merc putting in 130 laps/day, with inconsistency, signs of tyre-eating, and average speed. If I am right, it should mean they have put a huge effort in this car. Even if it is not a rocket ship, it seems it should be a great platform to develop.


#730 SR388

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:11

Any chance we could get 300 laps over the next two days?



Also I wounder if we will see the new front wing this week.

#731 Szoelloe

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:16

Any chance we could get 300 laps over the next two days?



Also I wounder if we will see the new front wing this week.


No. Not really. 200 - 230 is the max, imho, but as things stand now, I would say it will be way below that. Hope they prove me wrong though.


#732 SR388

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:20

No. Not really. 200 - 230 is the max, imho, but as things stand now, I would say it will be way below that. Hope they prove me wrong though.


I think we can do it!!

#733 TF110

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:27

That'd be 130-140 laps per day. If you count the two days they had so far they've done around 30 laps total? So they'd have to do something like 260-280 laps over the next 2 days to equal 300 laps over the 4.

#734 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:27

No. Not really. 200 - 230 is the max, imho, but as things stand now, I would say it will be way below that. Hope they prove me wrong though.


That's about how I see it as well. They have 8 hours and if they averaged 1:30 a lap they could do 320 laps in the 8 hours they have for testing. However, they would have to make several fuel/tire stops. Both drivers would need to drive, as I would be shocked if a single drivers could make that many laps, without breaking down physically or having a mental lapse.



#735 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:29

O I thought you guys meant per day, disregard my last post.

#736 jav

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:40

Alonso wasn't optomistic last year


Fry was down right negative
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/97841



Dans-

that was AFTER 4 days of running and if I recall around 400 laps. This is day 2 and Mercedes have yet to reach 30 laps total. They haven't finished a morning session and they haven't even put a tire on track during an afteroon session.

You're not seriously suggesting any driver at his first 1/2 hour of track exposure with a new team should be compared to the Alonso or fry your link depicts... do you? I hope you can see the difference in those situations.

Edited by jav, 06 February 2013 - 21:41.


#737 F1ultimate

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:49

If he could only shut his trap about pushing the engineers for more aero, or whatewer fancy term he is using that particular day. He really is ligtning quick down on the track, but painfuly slow in the head. 28 years old multimill kid with possibly few exams short of high school diploma is asking for some shiny new aero bits because he had them on his former shiny toy, from a bunch of engineers with possibly few of PHDs on their CVs.
He just needs to shut up and drive, that is why people adore him.


It's called politics and public confidence.

His instructions to speak his mind comes from the top and this is normal practice in many businesses where the company gives a certain individual verbal power to raise confidence and faith during uncertain times. It's better he says something to keep optimism up than be quiet. Fans, casual viewers, sponsors, shareholders and the media have more faith in the words of the drivers than the team principals. The team has invested a lot into 2013-2014 and any positive words of leadership from Lewis whom people know can perform, carries a lot of weight in the public eyes.

No, it is not a case of asking for more aero bits but more about injecting feedback to the engineers about what type of corners where down force as lacking, where the car feels nervous or how differently the car feels transitioning from high to low fuel. So aero isn't always about science and numbers. Remember that Lewis has worked with Mclaren for 6 season and has driven everything from an excellent top car, to an average down, down to a rubbish which in 2009 which the team turned around and developed into a race winner. So he is bringing with him lots of processes and experience in developing a car. Like Button mentioned a few weeks ago, Lewis has the skills to find performance in bad cars.

Thus the W04 might not need to developed into dominant car but simply the engineers just need to work hard and close with Lewis to tweak it to a level which the car becomes one with his driving style and performance with come thereafter.

#738 Owen

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:50

@PeterDWindsor: Scarbs on the Mercedes F1 W04.mov: http://t.co/aRIeUw5Y via @YouTube

#739 stanga

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:51

It's called politics and public confidence.

His instructions to speak his mind comes from the top and this is normal practice in many businesses where the company gives a certain individual verbal power to raise confidence and faith during uncertain times. It's better he says something to keep optimism up than be quiet. Fans, casual viewers, sponsors, shareholders and the media have more faith in the words of the drivers than the team principals. The team has invested a lot into 2013-2014 and any positive words of leadership from Lewis whom people know can perform, carries a lot of weight in the public eyes.

No, it is not a case of asking for more aero bits but more about injecting feedback to the engineers about what type of corners where down force as lacking, where the car feels nervous or how differently the car feels transitioning from high to low fuel. So aero isn't always about science and numbers. Remember that Lewis has worked with Mclaren for 6 season and has driven everything from an excellent top car, to an average down, down to a rubbish which in 2009 which the team turned around and developed into a race winner. So he is bringing with him lots of processes and experience in developing a car. Like Button mentioned a few weeks ago, Lewis has the skills to find performance in bad cars.

Thus the W04 might not need to developed into dominant car but simply the engineers just need to work hard and close with Lewis to tweak it to a level which the car becomes one with his driving style and performance with come thereafter.


Excellent post.

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#740 chumma

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:56

I honestly think Lewis has caught the dreaded Johnny Herbert badluck bug. And its followed him from McLaren over to Mercedes.

#741 SR388

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:00

I honestly think Lewis has caught the dreaded Johnny Herbert badluck bug. And its followed him from McLaren over to Mercedes.



Way too early to make that call. We will see though.

#742 Masenco

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:05

@PeterDWindsor: Scarbs on the Mercedes F1 W04.mov: http://t.co/aRIeUw5Y via @YouTube


I found his final point especially interesting, it could be possible that mercedes will use this current layout for the hot races which means that they would not have to take panels off - therefore giving them an advantage, and then have a version with a tidier rear end in cooler races.

#743 Owen

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:07

I found his final point especially interesting, it could be possible that mercedes will use this current layout for the hot races which means that they would not have to take panels off - therefore giving them an advantage, and then have a version with a tidier rear end in cooler races.

Interesting that he picked up on a point many were making on this thread.

#744 Longtimefan

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:08

I honestly think Lewis has caught the dreaded Johnny Herbert badluck bug. And its followed him from McLaren over to Mercedes.


It didn't need to follow him, didn't you watch Merc last season?


#745 motorhead

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:18

It didn't need to follow him, didn't you watch Merc last season?


Lotus(Renault) had several lousy seasons before last season, things will change sooner or later. Merc has the assets for having a winning car, it is too soon to judge anything...


#746 OO7

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:31

@PeterDWindsor: Scarbs on the Mercedes F1 W04.mov: http://t.co/aRIeUw5Y via @YouTube

Cheers Owen :up:
Scarbs pretty much highlighting the concerns some of us raised here regarding the rear cooling body work.

#747 Owen

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:32

Cheers Owen :up:
Scarbs pretty much highlighting the concerns some of us raised here regarding the rear cooling body work.

Sometimes the armchair experts do have a point :cat:

#748 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:39

Dans-

that was AFTER 4 days of running and if I recall around 400 laps. This is day 2 and Mercedes have yet to reach 30 laps total. They haven't finished a morning session and they haven't even put a tire on track during an afteroon session.

You're not seriously suggesting any driver at his first 1/2 hour of track exposure with a new team should be compared to the Alonso or fry your link depicts... do you? I hope you can see the difference in those situations.


Any driver no, Hamilton or any other top driver who drove a good car last year, should in my opinion be able to very quickly tell if the car has more or less downforce than he is use to.


#749 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 23:20

It's probably also worth mentioning, that rear down force is much easier to come by. Front down force is much harder, because you need to generate down force, but at the same time minimize turbulence and drag, so you don't effect the flow around the car and over the diffuser. To generate more rear down force you just tweak the rear wing profile and try not to generate to much extra drag. You don't care how the turbulent the air off the rear gets.

quite the other way around. front downforce is easy to gain with these biiig front wings and the drag penalty is small.
rear downforce can of course be obtained from rear wing angle but that is extremely costly in terms of drag. The rear wing settings determine the car's top speed.
last year mercedes were limited by rear downforce

#750 ImAnEngineer

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 23:23

It's probably also worth mentioning, that rear down force is much easier to come by. Front down force is much harder, because you need to generate down force, but at the same time minimize turbulence and drag, so you don't effect the flow around the car and over the diffuser. To generate more rear down force you just tweak the rear wing profile and try not to generate to much extra drag. You don't care how the turbulent the air off the rear gets.


Actually you are wrong. Adding (clean) rear downforce is the big challenge that teams face, as the rear wing is incredibly inefficient. A large part of the rear downforce comes from the diffuser and this also produces very little drag, hence why teams are so keen to optimise it.

Once the downforce at the rear is there, it is easy to get the front end up by simply increasing the flap angle on the front wing (which is actually very efficient).