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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#751 dans79

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:39

Dans-

that was AFTER 4 days of running and if I recall around 400 laps. This is day 2 and Mercedes have yet to reach 30 laps total. They haven't finished a morning session and they haven't even put a tire on track during an afteroon session.

You're not seriously suggesting any driver at his first 1/2 hour of track exposure with a new team should be compared to the Alonso or fry your link depicts... do you? I hope you can see the difference in those situations.


Any driver no, Hamilton or any other top driver who drove a good car last year, should in my opinion be able to very quickly tell if the car has more or less downforce than he is use to.


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#752 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 23:20

It's probably also worth mentioning, that rear down force is much easier to come by. Front down force is much harder, because you need to generate down force, but at the same time minimize turbulence and drag, so you don't effect the flow around the car and over the diffuser. To generate more rear down force you just tweak the rear wing profile and try not to generate to much extra drag. You don't care how the turbulent the air off the rear gets.

quite the other way around. front downforce is easy to gain with these biiig front wings and the drag penalty is small.
rear downforce can of course be obtained from rear wing angle but that is extremely costly in terms of drag. The rear wing settings determine the car's top speed.
last year mercedes were limited by rear downforce

#753 ImAnEngineer

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 23:23

It's probably also worth mentioning, that rear down force is much easier to come by. Front down force is much harder, because you need to generate down force, but at the same time minimize turbulence and drag, so you don't effect the flow around the car and over the diffuser. To generate more rear down force you just tweak the rear wing profile and try not to generate to much extra drag. You don't care how the turbulent the air off the rear gets.


Actually you are wrong. Adding (clean) rear downforce is the big challenge that teams face, as the rear wing is incredibly inefficient. A large part of the rear downforce comes from the diffuser and this also produces very little drag, hence why teams are so keen to optimise it.

Once the downforce at the rear is there, it is easy to get the front end up by simply increasing the flap angle on the front wing (which is actually very efficient).

#754 dau

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 23:30

Some pictures of the crash site, found over at F1Technical: It's the trademark Mercedes gold painted exhaust area:

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
(Click for larger images)

Considering the few laps he did in relatively cool conditions, they probably have a lot of thermal insulation work to do. Unless they plan to sport the 1996 Jordan look once we get to Malaysia. Oh, well, something would've been missing if we didn't get to see burnt silver paint, wouldn't it?

Also, a nice 1000pcs frontwing puzzle:
Posted Image

You can see the "real" nose below the cracked vanity panel. And cables sticking out. Just mentioning because we had that discussion before.

Edited by dau, 06 February 2013 - 23:37.


#755 pingu666

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 00:10

the burnt paint might be from not turning the engine off quickly

#756 BigCHrome

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:03

Burnt paint isn't a big deal. Most other teams have unpainted carbon fiber around the exhausts.

#757 TF110

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:30

the burnt paint might be from not turning the engine off quickly

True, if the car is just sitting there with no air over it the burning is expected.

#758 SR388

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:47

Burnt paint isn't a big deal. Most other teams have unpainted carbon fiber around the exhausts.



Yeah, we seem to have gone further with the paint, whilst others stop much earlier.

#759 jstrains

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:57

Nope, AMuS were pointing on the overheating sidepod visible already before the crash with this picture

http://img4.auto-mot...f47b-659370.jpg
Posted Image

Edited by jstrains, 07 February 2013 - 04:59.


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#760 BigCHrome

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:47

What's going to break on the car today? My guess is something related to the engine.

#761 aray

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:59

that's quite a big heating problem,unless they are doing such 'set-up' knowingly to get some datas....

#762 kedia990

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:19

Uh, is it possible that the "golden painted" burnt sidepod is due to the flash flames while Nico was driving on Tuesday? I don't think Merc repainted it, coz the same golden marks are on the right side of the car as well.
Sorry if this has already been pointed out.

#763 peroa

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:26

All this fuss about a little burnt paint.

Edited by peroa, 07 February 2013 - 07:31.


#764 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:32

that's quite a big heating problem,unless they are doing such 'set-up' knowingly to get some datas....


It's more of a problem of the livery.

#765 DarioAndretti

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:26

so far it does not look good. lewis and Nico will be fighting for positions between 7 and 12 and thats it really.

#766 ViMaMo

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:42

Don't they test the car with the engine running at the factory? A standing test, maybe in the wind tunnel?

#767 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:59

so far it does not look good. lewis and Nico will be fighting for positions between 7 and 12 and thats it really.



You came to that conclusion how?

#768 EvanRainer

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:13

The question should be, you came to that conclusion now ?

#769 pit5bul

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:39

actually Nico's times today look quite good..not sure what they test but its not looking bad for Mercedes this year.. looks like a good 2013 :cool:

#770 Massa_f1

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:43

actually Nico's times today look quite good..not sure what they test but its not looking bad for Mercedes this year.. looks like a good 2013 :cool:



Press runs to cover for the bad press of the past two days

#771 Markn93

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:47

Press runs to cover for the bad press of the past two days

:lol: good one.

Anyway new front wing looks great :up:

#772 MadYarpen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:49

:lol: good one.

Anyway new front wing looks great :up:

pics or it didn;t happen


#773 maverick69

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:50

:lol: good one.

Anyway new front wing looks great :up:


Excellent :up:

An actual post on a technical aspect of the car.

Any links/pics?

#774 Timstr11

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:51

Anyway new front wing looks great :up:

http://img3.auto-mot...8b17-659678.jpg

Edited by Timstr11, 07 February 2013 - 09:52.


#775 DarioAndretti

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:53

You came to that conclusion how?


a lot of parameters.

2010 -2012 downward trend

2012 late part of teh season

2013 early testing problems

2013 grim look on the drivers and mechanics faces

etc, etc

my pecking order so far

1. RedBull, Lotus
3. Ferrari
4. McLaren
5. Sauber, Mercedes, Torro

#776 MadYarpen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:53

http://img3.auto-mot...8b17-659678.jpg

spectacular indeed

#777 Markn93

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:56

http://img3.auto-mot...8b17-659678.jpg

Is it just the picture or does it look a tad asymmetric?

#778 bonjon1979a

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:56

Its pointless trying to read anything into the testing times, but sometimes the consistency in long stints can tell us something about how a car is treating its tyres - its a shame that Merc haven't been able to string together enough running to see if they still have their big tyre drop off problem.

The car may well have good and consistent pace, but all I'm seeing is the same old Mercedes from last year. First an overheating/wiring problem, then a brake failure. Do teams have testing rigs in the factory to fire these things up on and give a work out to, before bringing them to the track? I could be wrong, but these sound like basic flaws that are being shaken out just by the car running.

Mercedes were very sloppy last year, and have carried on exactly where they left off. My suspicion is the pace of the car will be about the same too - maybe 6th? - if Lewis thinks the downforce is down on last years McLaren, we assume McLaren and the teams around them have better downforce now, it could be a bigger gap than he's expecting.


To be honest, I suspect the early iteration of the 2013 Mclaren doesn't have the same level of downforce straight out of the box as the 2012 that was running in Brazil. That car had a season's worth of refinements, at the first test none of these cars are going to be optimised in the same way. I can't see merc fighting for wins but scrapping with Lotus and Ferrari through the season and trying to get closer to the front two is a realistic ambition.

#779 mlsnoopy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:57

http://img3.auto-mot...8b17-659678.jpg


Wow

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#780 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:00

http://img3.auto-mot...8b17-659678.jpg


OMFG

Is it just the picture or does it look a tad asymmetric?


:)

#781 Markn93

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:03

:)

I assume its not but you can see where I'm coming from based on that pic.

Also interesting comments by GA on bbc live text. Could someone post them? Am unable to right now.

Edited by Markn93, 07 February 2013 - 10:08.


#782 Owen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:05

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson in Jerez (on the Merc front wing)

"I've been saying since June last year that there was something wrong with their front-wing philosophy. All the teams are struggling to get enough downforce from the front wing, but Mercedes have been taking downforce-producing bits off it. From what I know the bits do, the pieces missing are worth about 40kg of downforce. That equates to about 60kg of lost downforce at the back, because it's a 40:60 ratio, and so that's 100kg of downforce they don't have that they could. That's worth 0.8secs a lap."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21360298

#783 bonjon1979a

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:18

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson in Jerez (on the Merc front wing)

"I've been saying since June last year that there was something wrong with their front-wing philosophy. All the teams are struggling to get enough downforce from the front wing, but Mercedes have been taking downforce-producing bits off it. From what I know the bits do, the pieces missing are worth about 40kg of downforce. That equates to about 60kg of lost downforce at the back, because it's a 40:60 ratio, and so that's 100kg of downforce they don't have that they could. That's worth 0.8secs a lap."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21360298


This doesn't sound massively scientific. Is it really this simple?

#784 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:24

This doesn't sound massively scientific. Is it really this simple?


The centre of gravity, grip and downforce ideally need to be kept as close as possible for optimal balance so is probably a safe educated guess from Gary. He doesn't know everything about the design of the car but I'd take his word over most other pundits given his background.

#785 Zoetrope

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:28

Wow


Not sure whether it resembles Batmobil or Predator's armor more? o_O

#786 dau

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:37

Burnt paint isn't a big deal. Most other teams have unpainted carbon fiber around the exhausts.

You're right, it isn't really a big deal, but Merc has some history with that.

Also, it isn't even burnt right at the exhaust, where other teams have unpainted CFRP or black heatshielding etc., but about 20cm in front of that. For comparison:

Posted Image

--

That FW looks awesome. Was about time they'd get a new one.

Edited by dau, 07 February 2013 - 10:37.


#787 slmk

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:43

Seems like the W04 hasn't really changed anything. Still suffering from heavy degradation.

#788 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:46

You're right, it isn't really a big deal, but Merc has some history with that.

Also, it isn't even burnt right at the exhaust, where other teams have unpainted CFRP or black heatshielding etc., but about 20cm in front of that. For comparison:

Posted Image

--

That FW looks awesome. Was about time they'd get a new one.



It was the same last season, and there were absolutely no cooling issues. I don't think they have any now either.

#789 meddo

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:47

Seems like the W04 hasn't really changed anything. Still suffering from heavy degradation.

How can you tell?

#790 Grundle

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:49

I have a theory that Mercedes tend to use very aggressive engine settings. Gives great accn. and top speed, and is good in qualifying. But in the races the tyres suffer.
I think it's a classic case of trying to use power to overcome poor aero. This is backed up by Lewis' comments yesterday, when he could feel the lack of aero comp. to McLaren.

#791 Masenco

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:53

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson in Jerez (on the Merc front wing)

"I've been saying since June last year that there was something wrong with their front-wing philosophy. All the teams are struggling to get enough downforce from the front wing, but Mercedes have been taking downforce-producing bits off it. From what I know the bits do, the pieces missing are worth about 40kg of downforce. That equates to about 60kg of lost downforce at the back, because it's a 40:60 ratio, and so that's 100kg of downforce they don't have that they could. That's worth 0.8secs a lap."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21360298


That sounds very wierd

#792 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:03

That sounds very wierd


GA is weird.

#793 slmk

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:08

How can you tell?


Laptimes.

#794 peroa

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:11

It's not weird, it makes perfect sense, the car couldn't produce enough downforce at the rear, so they had to take downforce off the front to keep the aero balance.
Same thing happened at Macca last year when they removed the plough because it produced too much DF in relation to the rear.

#795 maverick69

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:12

That sounds very wierd


I think it could be a function of having a DDRS front wing.


#796 jrg19

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:16

Wow nice looking new wing!

#797 H2H

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:16

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson in Jerez

"I've been saying since June last year that there was something wrong with their front-wing philosophy. All the teams are struggling to get enough downforce from the front wing, but Mercedes have been taking downforce-producing bits off it. From what I know the bits do, the pieces missing are worth about 40kg of downforce. That equates to about 60kg of lost downforce at the back, because it's a 40:60 ratio, and so that's 100kg of downforce they don't have that they could. That's worth 0.8secs a lap."


IIRC Scarbs stated something similar during the TFL. It is pretty basic. The C of P can not be too much upflow and if they struggle to generate D at the rear they have to give up D at the front to hurt the areo balance not too much. Too little efficient downforce at the back might also have been part of the rear tyre problem, apart from the complex suspension and unknown factors.

Edited by H2H, 07 February 2013 - 11:17.


#798 Owen

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:25

I think it could be a function of having a DDRS front wing.

good point :up:

#799 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:51

IIRC Scarbs stated something similar during the TFL. It is pretty basic. The C of P can not be too much upflow and if they struggle to generate D at the rear they have to give up D at the front to hurt the areo balance not too much. Too little efficient downforce at the back might also have been part of the rear tyre problem, apart from the complex suspension and unknown factors.



Yes. GA is saying the opposite, that is what is weird. Basically what he is saying that they should have put more wing on the front to gain downforce at the rear?

"That equates to about 60kg of lost downforce at the back, because it's a 40:60 ratio, and so that's 100kg of downforce they don't have that they could. That's worth 0.8secs a lap."

That is pure BS. One of his best brainfades, really.

Edited by Szoelloe, 07 February 2013 - 11:52.


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#800 aray

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:19

seems like they would manage to get some 120-150 laps today...:up: