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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#51 moorsey

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:05

No, if you ask Ferrari.


I know that, back in June, McLaren were also considering switching to a pull rod system for 2013 so maybe there are advantages to be had?

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#52 Szoelloe

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 12:04

I know that, back in June, McLaren were also considering switching to a pull rod system for 2013 so maybe there are advantages to be had?


Misplaced sarcasm, maybe I should have included a smiley. As Timstr posted, the front pull-rod solution was analyzed pre-season last year right from the time when the first drawings surfaced of the Ferrari F2012. It comes with a slightly lower CoG. So there are advantages to be had, obviously. It is a tiny piece in the mosaic of a design though, I hope they get their act together finally.

#53 maverick69

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 13:17

What are the odds that they´ll royally screw up the pull-rod front suspension and some "unexpected" issues occur?


;) :p


Aldo Costa would have been rather heavily involved with the conception of the pull-rod on the F2012 - so with over a year of reflection and hindsight...... who knows..........

#54 bauss

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 16:05

The issue with finding time for me when it comes to Mercedes, is that it was clear they were already being outclassed by the midfield cars (Force India, Williams, Sauber) towards the end of the season. It's nice MGP is coming out to try and set a high bar with their improvements, but it can be counterproductive for 2013 if it turns out they suffer from the same issues that plagued 2012. They would have been better off tempering expectations by aiming for the midfield teams first since they had their hands full there. Aiming for Red Bull territory is foolish since all it does is raise expectations to a high level that is going to work against them if they don't meet them.


this doesnt make much sense.... absolutely solving the issues they had in 2012 is the only way they can find the time they are looking for.

And with the team and drivers they have, aiming for anything but Red Bull territory is unacceptable.... another season leading the midfield is gonna be another year of failure.

Edited by bauss, 31 December 2012 - 16:07.


#55 r4mses

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 16:17

Ye, if you're Mercedes and you just signed HAM, you don't aim for being best of the rest... behind Redbull, McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus. They're in F1 to win, not just for the sake of being there.

#56 BernieEc

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 16:50

https://docs.google....ZU51RXZwb2gtQkk

Brawn explain the mid season slump...... from 10min into the video

originally posted on F1 technical

#57 jrg19

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 17:25

Nice that it potentially could all click into place in 2013... Im not going to hold my breathe though, most season Mercedes start well. The first 4 fly aways are IMO Lewis best chance of a race win this season.

#58 bauss

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 19:29

Nice that it potentially could all click into place in 2013... Im not going to hold my breathe though, most season Mercedes start well. The first 4 fly aways are IMO Lewis best chance of a race win this season.


to be honest, dont know what to expect....

with all the tech n team they have in place, its not impossible to have a Renault 2012 like car....

but given what we've actually seen, shouldn't hold my breath for that.

#59 revlec

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 20:30

This article says the AMGW04 will have a pull-rod front suspension like Ferrari's:
http://www.omnicorse...ercedes-amg-w04


The article says according to "rumors", Aldo Costa has been reviewing the suspensions and the Mercedes will have a Pull-rod front suspension(copied from Ferrari) and a Pull-rod rear suspension(inspired by the RB one).

So both front and rear "should" have pull rod.
hmmm... :drunk:

Edited by revlec, 31 December 2012 - 20:34.


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#60 Szoelloe

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 20:47

The article says according to "rumors", Aldo Costa has been reviewing the suspensions and the Mercedes will have a Pull-rod front suspension(copied from Ferrari) and a Pull-rod rear suspension(inspired by the RB one).

So both front and rear "should" have pull rod.
hmmm... :drunk:



They already had a pull rod in the rear.

#61 revlec

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 21:29

They already had a pull rod in the rear.


True.. I just have a bad feeling about Pull rod at front and rear.. Hence my :drunk:

#62 BernieEc

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 23:40

to be honest, dont know what to expect....

with all the tech n team they have in place, its not impossible to have a Renault 2012 like car....

but given what we've actually seen, shouldn't hold my breath for that.


Was there a Renault team in 2012???...am sure you mean Lotus :)

#63 TF110

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 09:52

Interconnected suspension? Heard they had this on the W03. Front rear left and right.

#64 george1981

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:04

I think Brawn has said that the new suspension will be easier to adapt than the type suspension designs they've gone for in the past.
To me this is worrying, back in 2010 Mercedes had issues with their tyres at the beginning of the season. I remember Ross Brawn saying that they didn't have the space or flexibility to change the suspension how they'd like in order to get the tyres working correctly. This was meant to have been rectified with a B-spec car mid season. I'm wondering why Mercedes don't seem to be learning lessons from previous mistakes, it seems to have taken them three years to work out that the suspension they've designed might not work correctly out of the box and that it might need to be modified so they should leave themselves some wiggle room.


#65 MaxisOne

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:13

I think Brawn has said that the new suspension will be easier to adapt than the type suspension designs they've gone for in the past.
To me this is worrying, back in 2010 Mercedes had issues with their tyres at the beginning of the season. I remember Ross Brawn saying that they didn't have the space or flexibility to change the suspension how they'd like in order to get the tyres working correctly. This was meant to have been rectified with a B-spec car mid season. I'm wondering why Mercedes don't seem to be learning lessons from previous mistakes, it seems to have taken them three years to work out that the suspension they've designed might not work correctly out of the box and that it might need to be modified so they should leave themselves some wiggle room.


Not sure how this is worrying.

1. The B spec car of 2010 was based on what was left of the 2009 design team.
2. I would venture to imagine that the revised car's wheelbase and geometry was lengthened if I recall correctly.. That was a major adjustment and I think it was necessary.
3. Timstr11's post below hit the nail right on the head.

The new suspension geometry is being designed by someone else (Mr. Costa) who may implement their ideas and direction differently.

Considering the essential importance to get these tyres operating within the correct window I think this is an area that requires a suspension design that allows for maximum adjustability even if other smaller areas of the chassis design are penalized.

When we finally get the situation managed properly then we can make the design a bit more efficient and "remove the slack" so to speak as the season progresses.

For this season I think Mercedes really need to focus on Aero (General and specialized), Engine (traction, maps), and Tyres through the suspension. And fix the rest once those three areas are brought under control.

Edited by MaxisOne, 02 January 2013 - 20:36.


#66 BigCHrome

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:18

I think they worked a lot with the interconnected suspension for the 2011 Pirellis, but then the 2012 tires were quite different, and the suspension didn't seem to be adaptable for them.

#67 Timstr11

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:40

I think Brawn has said that the new suspension will be easier to adapt than the type suspension designs they've gone for in the past.
To me this is worrying, back in 2010 Mercedes had issues with their tyres at the beginning of the season. I remember Ross Brawn saying that they didn't have the space or flexibility to change the suspension how they'd like in order to get the tyres working correctly. This was meant to have been rectified with a B-spec car mid season. I'm wondering why Mercedes don't seem to be learning lessons from previous mistakes, it seems to have taken them three years to work out that the suspension they've designed might not work correctly out of the box and that it might need to be modified so they should leave themselves some wiggle room.

That was a weight distribution/wheelbase issue.
Not a limiting factor now as we now have a fixed weight distribution.

#68 jrg19

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:10

Alan Baldwin ‏@alanbaldwinf1
Hearing that Mercedes have booked Jerez circuit for filming day on Monday before test starts. Wonder who will be first in the car.


:) first drive for Lewis.

#69 Szoelloe

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:27

:) first drive for Lewis.


Rosberg Hamilton 50-50. Like usual.


#70 Guizotia

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:02

Rosberg Hamilton 50-50. Like usual.


:cat: Lewis's first drive.

#71 Szoelloe

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:22

:cat: Lewis's first drive.


I kind of think he will enjoy himself immensely. Not just the first drive, but the whole season, and the experience of driving for another team, and especially driving for Brawn. It has done wonders to JB. I am not especially a fan of his, but I look forward to next season. I think they will push each other with NR pretty much. He could be in the making, let's see how far he gets.


#72 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 23:38

Discussion of whether Lewis can win the WDC has been moved to here. This thread is about the car and it's technical development through the year. If you wish to discuss the drivers, other teams, or general rule changes, this is not the thread for you.

#73 BernieEc

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 16:56

Schumacher: 'Mercedes can be successful in '13'
://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/439276/Schumacher_Mercedes_can_be_successful_in_13/

#74 akshay380

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:40

Schumacher: 'Mercedes can be successful in '13'
://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/439276/Schumacher_Mercedes_can_be_successful_in_13/

So is Schumi staying at Mercedes in some role for 2013?

#75 Sakae

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:45

This might be indirectly relevant to this thread in terms whether Daimler-Benz can support financially F1 operations (if willing, of course):

Daimler posts sales record in 2012

Last year, German auto maker Daimler sold more cars than ever before in its company history. The record race was primarily boosted by strong demand for luxury cars in the United States and China.


http://www.dw.de/dai...2012/a-16499302

Edited by Sakae, 06 January 2013 - 09:03.


#76 Kingshark

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:00

The WO3 had potential. We saw that early on in the season. However, the way Mercedes developed that car is shocking, just shocking. They were half a second ahead of the pack in China, yet some 4 seconds slower in America. Nuff' said.

Compared to 2012, the 2011 and 2010 cars were actually pretty decent. At least they were comfortably 4th-5th best throughout the season. Their superior drivers line-up (compared to the midfield teams) made the difference.

Let's hope for Lewis, Nico and Brackley; that 2013 will be more 2009 and less 2012. :up:

#77 jjcale

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:24

This might be indirectly relevant to this thread in terms whether Daimler-Benz can support financially F1 operations (if willing, of course):

Daimler posts sales record in 2012

http://www.dw.de/dai...2012/a-16499302


What's the thinking in Germany is Dr Z on track for another term?

#78 Sakae

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:29

What's the thinking in Germany is Dr Z on track for another term?

Informed sources on the subject are of opinion that the answer is positive, that is, yes, he is.

#79 jjcale

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:31

Informed sources on the subject are of opinion that the answer is positive, that is, yes, he is.


Cheers. I can stop worrying about them doing a Honda anytime soon.

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#80 maverick69

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 13:35

Autosport reporting they're still evaluating passive DRS. I guess they have a head-start in this. Brawn saying it's probably not much of an advantage apart from at specific tracks......... Hmmmmm.........

#81 Boxerevo

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:04

I know its ot,but give me if possible a simple answer,when will we see Lewis with mercedes outfit ?

#82 Brandz07

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 14:07

I know its ot,but give me if possible a simple answer,when will we see Lewis with mercedes outfit ?


probably when the cars launched, which was when Michael was first seen in it I think?

#83 Szoelloe

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 18:35

probably when the cars launched, which was when Michael was first seen in it I think?


That should be correct. Morning of the first test in Jerez.

I kind of hope for some sneak shots/vids of the car at least from the filming day before that happens though.


#84 senna da silva

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 18:54

Is there any anticipated change in sponsorship or livery for the upcoming season?

#85 Sakae

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 07:59

A new investor for owner of the team?

DW | 2012-01-07

...Chinese newspaper website has maintained the Asian country is considering buying a stake in German car and truck maker Daimler. It would be another move by Beijing to invest foreign exchange reserves.

...The website of the official People's Daily newspaper said "an insider confirmed that the China Investment Corporation (CIC) is going to buy 4-10 percent of shares in Daimler."

...Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche had said in recent interview for the Börsen-Zeitung newspaper that remaining attractive for potential investors had been part of the company's long-term strategy.
"Generally speaking, we intend to lure long-term investors, and investors from China are also welcome," Zetsche said.


http://www.dw.de/chi...aper/a-16502963

Edited by Sakae, 08 January 2013 - 08:01.


#86 karlth

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:24

M.S. basicly said, that in the first 2 years, they did not had the manpower & engineering resources to fight at two fronts at the same time.


Sounds familiar :cat: . Anyway due to F1's fairly static regulations and with a 2012 multiple race winner at the wheel I expect Mercedes will catch up pretty quickly this year.


#87 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 13:39

if they keep engineering sh!t they won't catch up anybody.

#88 SunnyENTP

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:25

if they keep engineering sh!t they won't catch up anybody.


Mercedes can really catch up with a team like Ferrari. I think the changes made to the team are a indeed a real positive step. Everything point to them contending at the top within the next 2 - 3years. I wont certainly rule them out this year to be in the mix. I give them as much a chance as Renault had last year.

#89 Rikhart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 19:08

Mercedes can really catch up with a team like Ferrari. I think the changes made to the team are a indeed a real positive step. Everything point to them contending at the top within the next 2 - 3years. I wont certainly rule them out this year to be in the mix. I give them as much a chance as Renault had last year.


Everything, except of course real facts and the last 3 years.

#90 Kvothe

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:43

Everything, except of course real facts and the last 3 years.


Except the facts can support either argument:

So you can say, that last season they got one pole position, the same amount as Ferrari and arguably should have had two.

They won their first race on merit since officially becoming Mercedes

After a drastic cut in personal they've spent the past two years building up numbers, and the recent appointments of Elliot to head of aerodynamis along with earlier appointements such as that of Costa suggest an ambition to improve.

Mercedes poor in season development was down to the loss of their head of aerodynamics, a upgrade of the wind tunnel mid season, and a change in focus to 2013.

So when you say facts, you must only mean selective facts, because they certainly don't all indicate that.

#91 Longtimefan

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:50

Mercedes can really catch up with a team like Ferrari. I think the changes made to the team are a indeed a real positive step. Everything point to them contending at the top within the next 2 - 3years. I wont certainly rule them out this year to be in the mix. I give them as much a chance as Renault had last year.


Uhh.. did you actually watch Merc in 2012? :D



#92 Rikhart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:53

Except the facts can support either argument:

So you can say, that last season they got one pole position, the same amount as Ferrari and arguably should have had two.

They won their first race on merit since officially becoming Mercedes

After a drastic cut in personal they've spent the past two years building up numbers, and the recent appointments of Elliot to head of aerodynamis along with earlier appointements such as that of Costa suggest an ambition to improve.

Mercedes poor in season development was down to the loss of their head of aerodynamics, a upgrade of the wind tunnel mid season, and a change in focus to 2013.

So when you say facts, you must only mean selective facts, because they certainly don't all indicate that.


They won and got a pole because of the tyre lotery, as williams won, as sauber should have won, as force india could have won... Means nothing.

#93 senna da silva

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 22:04

They won and got a pole because of the tyre lotery, as williams won, as sauber should have won, as force india could have won... Means nothing.


Well, not nothing. On that day their car used the tyres better than anyone else. I'm sure they learned something from it.

#94 Kvothe

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 22:05

They won and got a pole because of the tyre lotery, as williams won, as sauber should have won, as force india could have won... Means nothing.


Is that another fact?

They qualified third at both Aus and Mal, races proceeding China and it was Schumacher having both a gearbox failure, and being knocked into a spin, that prevented them from getting good results, furthermore but for a series of rather unfortunate events I estimated that Schumacher would have been in the title hunt for at least the first part of the season. Schumacher was also the fastest man at Monaco, and likely would have gone on to win the race had he not suffered a penalty.

Mercedes dip in form appears to be explained more by a lack of in-season development (the reasons outlined above), and developmental dead ends resulting from the interlinked suspension and DDRS than any relative loss in performance from other teams suddenly figuring out the tyres.


Edited by Kvothe, 09 January 2013 - 22:09.


#95 Rikhart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 22:12

Well, not nothing. On that day their car used the tyres better than anyone else. I'm sure they learned something from it.


That´s one of the problems, I believe they have no idea why (and this is supported by the rest of their season), and just lucked into the perfect tyre-friendly setup on that ocasion, basically.

#96 Rikhart

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 22:14

Is that another fact?

They qualified third at both Aus and Mal, races proceeding China and it was Schumacher having both a gearbox failure, and being knocked into a spin, that prevented them from getting good results, furthermore but for a series of rather unfortunate events I estimated that Schumacher would have been in the title hunt for at least the first part of the season. Schumacher was also the fastest man at Monaco, and likely would have gone on to win the race had he not suffered a penalty.

Mercedes dip in form appears to be explained more by a lack of in-season development (the reasons outlined above), and developmental dead ends resulting from the interlinked suspension and DDRS than any relative loss in performance from other teams suddenly figuring out the tyres.


Its good to see your faith in the team, and trust me I would love for them to actually improve so they dont waste another top driver´s time. As for me, I have zero confidence of improvement, and frankly I think mercedes will leave the sport sooner rather than later.

#97 TF110

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:55

They went to a larger scale windtunnel during the season, and changed hands on the team. This was explained by Brawn on autosports home page. With them using 60% windtunnel scale they're aero development should be better correlated to the track this season.

#98 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:38

really?

#99 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:01

That´s one of the problems, I believe they have no idea why (and this is supported by the rest of their season), and just lucked into the perfect tyre-friendly setup on that ocasion, basically.


I'm very sure they know why they didn't perform well. They have very clever people working for them and if they can design a car of F1 complexity, I'm sure they have to understand vehicle dynamics.

But a subtle point to note, is that there is a difference between knowing what the problem is and being able to fix it. It's like knowing how a virus works, but that doesn't mean you can cure it.

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#100 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:05

really?

That's the theory according to the article. Pirelli have to make both sizes of tyres (50% and 60%) and ISTR reading something previously which said the 60% ones were much more accurate.