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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#1051 Markn93

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:48

They ran different configs from Thursday to Friday. They most possibly were on different programs.

Quite. I was under the impression only Lewis ran DRD.

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#1052 MortenF1

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:54

Heikki Kulta?


Yes. Thanks, didn't remember his name. :)

#1053 windtravels

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:58

Looks like fair chunk of understeer. but hard to gauge anything from one comparison video.

what looks like some high fuel runs nothing amazing


Great video, thanks. Nice to see it all edited together. Car didn't look too snappy on exits as far as I could see on my phone.

#1054 pinkypants

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 23:11

Hamilton changes Manager:

http://www.mirror.co..._medium=twitter

Edited by pinkypants, 10 February 2013 - 14:49.


#1055 dhill39

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 00:28

According to Turun Sanomat, the calculations from inside mercedes gp say Nico Rosberg was three tenths quicker/lap on equal fuel/program than new team mate Hamilton and also good news for mercedes was that they calculated that they were quicker than Ferrari on thirsday by half a second/lap.


It's too early to be worrying lap time between drivers,Lewis is new to the team,needs time to get use to his new surrounding and Nico his no slouch,but saying all that,if Lewis was blowing Nico away this early that wouldn't be good,we should wait for the season to start,then we can talk about who is faster.

#1056 Masenco

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 00:50

According to Turun Sanomat, the calculations from inside mercedes gp say Nico Rosberg was three tenths quicker/lap on equal fuel/program than new team mate Hamilton and also good news for mercedes was that they calculated that they were quicker than Ferrari on thirsday by half a second/lap.


I'm assuming that's comparing their fastest laps of the day and not pace throughout a run; if so thats not really any news- but still nice to hear! Lol


#1057 boldhakka

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 13:32

According to Turun Sanomat, the calculations from inside mercedes gp say Nico Rosberg was three tenths quicker/lap on equal fuel/program than new team mate Hamilton and also good news for mercedes was that they calculated that they were quicker than Ferrari on thirsday by half a second/lap.


Doesn't pass the smell test.

#1058 ruby soho

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 14:40

Doesn't pass the smell test.

Heikki Kulta tends to have good sources, is very respected around the paddock and isn't biased(atleast when it comes to drivers who aren't Finnish). I have no doubts that he is telling the truth or what he heard from his source. But remember that it's just the first test, and lap times are pretty much meaningless right now.

#1059 robefc

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 14:50

It's too early to be worrying lap time between drivers,Lewis is new to the team,needs time to get use to his new surrounding and Nico his no slouch,but saying all that,if Lewis was blowing Nico away this early that wouldn't be good,we should wait for the season to start,then we can talk about who is faster.


Agreed, I would assume that even if Lewis was say innately 0.5 seconds quicker than Nico as a driver (overly simplistic I know!) it still wouldn't be a surprise to see him a bit behind on his first ever proper day in a merc car, would it?

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#1060 svalgis

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 15:09

you mean the same car that nico is also driving for the very first time ever?

#1061 MortenF1

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 15:42

With stable regs, cars from the same team tends to have some recognizable traits, and in addition to that - and that can be of bigger magnitude than learning a new car - is establishing a common language with new engineers.

Let's wait till we get to actual G's P to judge how Rosberg and Hamilton stack up to one another.

#1062 V3TT3L

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 15:51

OMG, no Lewis 2013 own thread ? :eek:

"The Mercedes driver has brought and Tom Shine and parted company with Didier Coton, although Simon Fuller stays the main man"

http://www.mirror.co..._medium=twitter

#1063 pinkypants

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 15:52

OMG, no Lewis 2013 own thread ? :eek:

"The Mercedes driver has brought and Tom Shine and parted company with Didier Coton, although Simon Fuller stays the main man"

http://www.mirror.co..._medium=twitter



See my post above...seems everyone made a big deal out of Lewis taking on Didier Coton, but noone has anything to say when Lewis let's him go...

#1064 V3TT3L

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 15:58

See my post above...seems everyone made a big deal out of Lewis taking on Didier Coton, but noone has anything to say when Lewis let's him go...

Oh, sorry :blush:

#1065 pinkypants

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 16:10

Oh, sorry :blush:



No need to apologize :p I've created a new thread as this is a car thread really. Shame we don't have a Lewis thread to discuss this on, but it stops the trolling I guess:P

#1066 femi

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 16:41

you mean the same car that nico is also driving for the very first time ever?


This might help... Ted Kravitz talked about LH comments but this is towards the end.

Edited by femi, 10 February 2013 - 16:42.


#1067 olliek88

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 16:46

you mean the same car that nico is also driving for the very first time ever?


Nico has been part of the Merc team for three years now, he is used to the way the team operates, the way the car operates, the view from the car/position within the car (just ask Checo ;) ) and the way the power steering etc feels, those are some of the things Lewis has to adjust to, it might not seem like much but its the little things like that which can cause a driver time to adjust and get the most out of himself and the car.

Here's JB explaining a bit about the very subject:

Edited by olliek88, 10 February 2013 - 16:51.


#1068 svalgis

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:00

yeah, we'll see.

#1069 olliek88

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:03

yeah, we'll see.


See what? I didn't think i was making a "we'll see/we won't see" kind of point.

#1070 svalgis

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:06

i was replying to the implication that nico beating lewis is down to familiarity or whatever.

#1071 olliek88

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:11

i was replying to the implication that nico beating lewis is down to familiarity or whatever.


I never claimed Nico would or wouldn't beat Lewis purely because of Lewis's lack of familiarity, just that its a factor thats has to be allowed for early doors.

Don't you think thats fairly reasonable?

#1072 svalgis

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:13

i wasn't replying to your post in particular, just the general implication.

but yes, it's reasonable that we'll see, later, how they will get on. as i said.

Edited by svalgis, 10 February 2013 - 18:15.


#1073 RosannaG

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:18

Nico has been part of the Merc team for three years now, he is used to the way the team operates, the way the car operates, the view from the car/position within the car (just ask Checo ;) ) and the way the power steering etc feels, those are some of the things Lewis has to adjust to, it might not seem like much but its the little things like that which can cause a driver time to adjust and get the most out of himself and the car.

Here's JB explaining a bit about the very subject:



You are right but I'm not that sure that the Mercedes fans will be patient enough to give him the time to adjust. If Nico outperforms Lewis in the first three, four races... We'll see what happens.

#1074 undersquare

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:21

Let's not derail the thread with this vs stuff guys. The data is weak.

Much more important is that the new tiny gearbox looked reliable.

#1075 pinkypants

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:42

i was replying to the implication that nico beating lewis is down to familiarity or whatever.


svalgis this is meant to be a car thread.. not sure what your insinuating has got anything to do with the car itself. Save it for a different my driver is better than yours thread.

#1076 jstrains

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 18:46

http://f1grandprix.m...IO_2013_293.jpg
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#1077 Kvothe

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 19:46

You are right but I'm not that sure that the Mercedes fans will be patient enough to give him the time to adjust. If Nico outperforms Lewis in the first three, four races... We'll see what happens.


Arguably (because of the conditions) Jenson technically outperformed Lewis in 3 of their first four races as team matesin 2010, although it could be argued Lewis had the better performances. Jenson continued to lead Lewis in the points up until Canada, yet Lewis was still able to come out on top overall despite losing a greater number of points to mechanical incidents and factors out of his control. To imply that if Nico is beating Lewis after four races its all over is incredibly myopic. One only has to look at how long it took Alonso to really settle into Ferrari, stop making mistakes and start comfortably beating Massa on points (half a season), and even than it required the mental castration of Massa as a competitor.

Edited by Kvothe, 10 February 2013 - 19:47.


#1078 svalgis

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 20:07

svalgis this is meant to be a car thread.. not sure what your insinuating has got anything to do with the car itself. Save it for a different my driver is better than yours thread.

i haven't got a driver.

i thought it would be okay to discuss the drivers of the team and how certain variables would affect their performance in the car in question.

Edited by svalgis, 10 February 2013 - 20:07.


#1079 BernieEc

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 20:36

Arguably (because of the conditions) Jenson technically outperformed Lewis in 3 of their first four races as team matesin 2010, although it could be argued Lewis had the better performances. Jenson continued to lead Lewis in the points up until Canada, yet Lewis was still able to come out on top overall despite losing a greater number of points to mechanical incidents and factors out of his control. To imply that if Nico is beating Lewis after four races its all over is incredibly myopic. One only has to look at how long it took Alonso to really settle into Ferrari, stop making mistakes and start comfortably beating Massa on points (half a season), and even than it required the mental castration of Massa as a competitor.


what a phrase!!!!

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#1080 Hairy

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:23

From what I understand from reading James Allen, Hamilton was faster over the course of the test than Rosberg, on all runs.

There's a lot of confidence coming from the camp, and I hope it isn't displaced.

#1081 BernieEc

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:28

From what I understand from reading James Allen, Hamilton was faster over the course of the test than Rosberg, on all runs.

There's a lot of confidence coming from the camp, and I hope it isn't displaced.

May I ask which James Allen article you are referring to. Could you please provide a link....source?

#1082 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 09:31

From what I understand from reading James Allen, Hamilton was faster over the course of the test than Rosberg, on all runs.

There's a lot of confidence coming from the camp, and I hope it isn't displaced.



Haven't seen any comments from JA about driver comparisons? Where'd you drawn that conclusion? Nobody has a clue, the car was different from Wednesday to Thursday. If the car was faster, it means they stepped up a notch with the Thursdy config.

#1083 skyform

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:03

From what I understand from reading James Allen, Hamilton was faster over the course of the test than Rosberg, on all runs.

There's a lot of confidence coming from the camp, and I hope it isn't displaced.


Heikki Kulta has heard behind the scenes that according to Mercedes calculations, Rosberg has been about three tenths faster than Lewis under similar conditions during testing.

http://www.ts.fi/moo...ittain lupaavaa


#1084 slmk

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 10:10

Mercedes
The Mercedes had reliability setbacks on the first two days, but they also didn’t look as strong as the front running Red Bull, Lotus, McLaren and Ferrari in the two high mileage days. The car is definitely losing its tyres on the longer runs, so they still have a lot to do, but Hamilton is making all the right noises and it’s really down to development from here.


http://www.jamesalle...1-test-of-2013/

From JA on F1.

Sounds about right....

#1085 cooper

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:09

http://www.jamesalle...1-test-of-2013/

From JA on F1.

Sounds about right....

I'd agree with that.. I am interested to see what changes are brought in over the next 2 tests! Either Merc are being honest about their performance or they are just holding their cards very close to their chest.

It would be amazing if they were McLaren 2012 competitive off the bat.. That would surprise a few people

#1086 mclara

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:31

I'd agree with that.. I am interested to see what changes are brought in over the next 2 tests! Either Merc are being honest about their performance or they are just holding their cards very close to their chest.

It would be amazing if they were McLaren 2012 competitive off the bat.. That would surprise a few people


So Lewis said that this years Merc had less downforce than the last years McLaren. So if we assume that the top teams have gained some more df. Where does that leave Merc? Further behind at the start of the season than last year?

#1087 Hairy

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:32

Haven't seen any comments from JA about driver comparisons? Where'd you drawn that conclusion? Nobody has a clue, the car was different from Wednesday to Thursday. If the car was faster, it means they stepped up a notch with the Thursdy config.


So nobody has a clue, but if it was faster, it was the car, and not Hamilton, despite most F1 people thinking he's got about .4 seconds more than most people on the grid.

OK then.

From what I understand, the car was changed around on both days they managed to run properly, to try out different things. This in a new car, in a new team, with new terms, new steering wheel, more going on in the cockpit.

Personally, I am quite happy with what he's managed, and if anything, he's proven he's a little bit special, imo.

The car looks ok too; I was expecting a pig after reading some comments.

How many days to Australia, 33? I am looking forward to the 19th to see which new things come to the grid.

#1088 dhill39

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:39

I am big fan of Lewis,but less not get ahead of our self,let them finish the preseason and then after Melbourne,we can jump for joy or call for somebody head.

#1089 Hairy

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:43

So Lewis said that this years Merc had less downforce than the last years McLaren. So if we assume that the top teams have gained some more df. Where does that leave Merc? Further behind at the start of the season than last year?


This for me is a tricky one, as they were, allegedly, 1.5 seconds off the pace of the front runners last year, but RB has mentioned they've clawed most of that back. So given the other teams should have moved forward, it's natural to assume they are behind, but how much is moot; the changes 2012-2013 aren't big enough for the top teams to have brought a lot more downforce to the party, as, for me, this is now about eeking out as much as you can: thousandths here, thousandths there. So yes, behind, but not by as much, I'd venture, and they now have the staff, and resources, to keep up with the development of the car.

They seem roguishly confident about the new stuff coming to the car, and that's pretty unlike RB.

#1090 bauss

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 11:58

then again there is this article where JA quotes Ham on Léquipe

http://www.jamesalle...-in-15th-place/

In the L’Equipe interview says that his targets are modest for 2013; to get a podium, perhaps a race win, but he is “quite prepared to finish 15th in the first race” in Melbourne on March 17.

“The McLaren was better, but that’s not a surprise. I could see last year that the Mercedes was often a second off the best; sometimes two seconds. I was prepared for that. I could tell (in Jerez test) that the Mercedes had less downforce than the McLaren. But it’s not catastrophic. I’ve got ideas on how we can improve two or three things.


so either Ham is sandbagging about the car, or he truly knows it is not gonna be up to the task of challenging the frontrunners consistently.

#1091 BernieEc

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:02

This for me is a tricky one, as they were, allegedly, 1.5 seconds off the pace of the front runners last year, but RB has mentioned they've clawed most of that back.


US Grand Prix
Vettel 1:35.657
Schumacher - 1:36.794

Difference - 1.134 sec


Brazilian Grand Prix
Hamilton 1:12.458
Rosberg - 1:13.489

Difference - 1.031 sec

Considering Brazil (interLagos) is a shorter lap that might account for the extra tenth or 2 tenths they trailed by in the US grand prix. I would say at the end of the season they were basically about 1.2-1.3 secs behind on the average track. this is without a decent exhaust solution, fancy front wing, tyre chewing, complex suspension and limitations of their DDRS design. so if its possible to get all these working then they might be able to claw back the deficit. Although as you mentioned , others are not standing still and I expect the other teams through refinement and all will be able to find another 5 tenths to 7 tenths of a second by Aus from their position at year end.

The issue is will Merc be able to claw an additional 5-6tenths before season opener....... all speculation of course!!!

#1092 F1ultimate

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:05

Remember that not all races last year were won by the fastest car. What will be key will first and foremost be reliability. We need the W04 not to breakdown or overheat. Secondly it needs to work well with the tires. Those were the two aspects that allowed Ferrari to compete for the WDC. A driver can always compensate for lack of pace but not reliability or inherit tire shredding.

#1093 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:06

then again there is this article where JA quotes Ham on Léquipe

http://www.jamesalle...-in-15th-place/



so either Ham is sandbagging about the car, or he truly knows it is not gonna be up to the task of challenging the frontrunners consistently.



That's not a direct quote. He(LH) said all that at various times during the four days of Jerez. Jumbled timeline, some of it taken out of context, and re-written in an article. There is really nothing new in there, and it is quite misleading.

#1094 BernieEc

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:11

Remember that not all races last year were won by the fastest car. What will be key will first and foremost be reliability. We need the W04 not to breakdown or overheat. Secondly it needs to work well with the tires. Those were the two aspects that allowed Ferrari to compete for the WDC. A driver can always compensate for lack of pace but not reliability or inherit tire shredding.


:up: couldn't agree more

#1095 Masenco

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:15

then again there is this article where JA quotes Ham on Léquipe

http://www.jamesalle...-in-15th-place/



so either Ham is sandbagging about the car, or he truly knows it is not gonna be up to the task of challenging the frontrunners consistently.


I think Lewis is referring more to his mindset than the pace of the car; he wants to make it clear to the world that he doesn't expect Merc to be better than the McLaren straight away- as no doubt some people will be judging Lewis' decision straight off the bat if the Merc is slower than the McLaren.
I think he's very concerned with his image.


#1096 mclara

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:41

This for me is a tricky one, as they were, allegedly, 1.5 seconds off the pace of the front runners last year, but RB has mentioned they've clawed most of that back. So given the other teams should have moved forward, it's natural to assume they are behind, but how much is moot; the changes 2012-2013 aren't big enough for the top teams to have brought a lot more downforce to the party, as, for me, this is now about eeking out as much as you can: thousandths here, thousandths there. So yes, behind, but not by as much, I'd venture, and they now have the staff, and resources, to keep up with the development of the car.

They seem roguishly confident about the new stuff coming to the car, and that's pretty unlike RB.


Ok. I would bother about Merc beeing behind come Melbourne as long as they can catch up most of the deficit during the season.

#1097 mclara

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:52

Remember that not all races last year were won by the fastest car. What will be key will first and foremost be reliability. We need the W04 not to breakdown or overheat. Secondly it needs to work well with the tires. Those were the two aspects that allowed Ferrari to compete for the WDC. A driver can always compensate for lack of pace but not reliability or inherit tire shredding.


So true. The reliability needs to better than last year.
But I was under the impression that downforce was a mayor factor in preventing tire degradation or is that wrong?

#1098 Masenco

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:56

So true. The reliability needs to better than last year.
But I was under the impression that downforce was a mayor factor in preventing tire degradation or is that wrong?


Yes you're right, also heat dissipation and the suspension of the car play big roles in tyre management.

#1099 1Devil1

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 13:58

US Grand Prix
Vettel 1:35.657
Schumacher - 1:36.794

Difference - 1.134 sec


Brazilian Grand Prix
Hamilton 1:12.458
Rosberg - 1:13.489

Difference - 1.031 sec

Considering Brazil (interLagos) is a shorter lap that might account for the extra tenth or 2 tenths they trailed by in the US grand prix. I would say at the end of the season they were basically about 1.2-1.3 secs behind on the average track. this is without a decent exhaust solution, fancy front wing, tyre chewing, complex suspension and limitations of their DDRS design. so if its possible to get all these working then they might be able to claw back the deficit. Although as you mentioned , others are not standing still and I expect the other teams through refinement and all will be able to find another 5 tenths to 7 tenths of a second by Aus from their position at year end.

The issue is will Merc be able to claw an additional 5-6tenths before season opener....... all speculation of course!!!


Oh yeah that's completely false to judge the performance of the car because of two random qualifying sessions.

1.) In the US Michael used the coanda exhaust, had a perfect lap. In the race he was so slow he was eaten alive because he had to carry more than twenty kilos fuels than his opponents. Add his ability to excel at new tracks.
2.) Brazil is way shorter, as you mentioned, a driver can make a difference, and the times gaps are usually very small. Rosberg is magnificent driver around brazil. Watch his q2 from 2011 and you know what i am talking about.
3.) Nobody said they were not good in qualifying. in fact that was the only positive aspect that year. The main problem was their race pace. So I don't see how this speculation about clawing down some tenth (in qualifying) makes any sense. What Mercedes needs more than speed is a car that doesn't chew their tires in the first laps. A comparison between the cars only on basis of qualifying is not a good idea. In this scenario Ferrari would be down on the 4th or 5th place over the whole season.

Edited by 1Devil1, 11 February 2013 - 14:14.


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#1100 Clatter

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:05

Oh yeah that's completely false to judge the performance of the car because of two random qualifying sessions.

1.) In the US Michael used the conda exhaust, had a perfect lap. In the race he was so slow he was eaten alive because he had to carry more than twenty kilos more fuels than his opponents. Add his ability to excel at new tracks.
2.) Brazil is way shorter, as you mentioned, a driver can make a difference, and the times gaps are usually very small. Rosberg is magnificent driver around brazil. Watch his q2 from 2011 and you know what i am talking about.
3.) Nobody said they were not good in qualifying. in fact that was the only positive aspect that year. The main problem was their race pace. So I don't see how this speculation about clawing down some tenth (in qualifying) makes any sense. What Mercedes needs more than speed is a car that doesn't chew their tires in the first laps. A comparison between the cars only on basis of qualifying is not a good idea. In this scenario Ferrari would be down on the 4th or 5th place over the whole season.


Is that a fact? Why didn't the other Merc powered teams need the same amount of extra fuel?