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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#1101 Masenco

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 12:56

So true. The reliability needs to better than last year.
But I was under the impression that downforce was a mayor factor in preventing tire degradation or is that wrong?


Yes you're right, also heat dissipation and the suspension of the car play big roles in tyre management.

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#1102 1Devil1

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 13:58

US Grand Prix
Vettel 1:35.657
Schumacher - 1:36.794

Difference - 1.134 sec


Brazilian Grand Prix
Hamilton 1:12.458
Rosberg - 1:13.489

Difference - 1.031 sec

Considering Brazil (interLagos) is a shorter lap that might account for the extra tenth or 2 tenths they trailed by in the US grand prix. I would say at the end of the season they were basically about 1.2-1.3 secs behind on the average track. this is without a decent exhaust solution, fancy front wing, tyre chewing, complex suspension and limitations of their DDRS design. so if its possible to get all these working then they might be able to claw back the deficit. Although as you mentioned , others are not standing still and I expect the other teams through refinement and all will be able to find another 5 tenths to 7 tenths of a second by Aus from their position at year end.

The issue is will Merc be able to claw an additional 5-6tenths before season opener....... all speculation of course!!!


Oh yeah that's completely false to judge the performance of the car because of two random qualifying sessions.

1.) In the US Michael used the coanda exhaust, had a perfect lap. In the race he was so slow he was eaten alive because he had to carry more than twenty kilos fuels than his opponents. Add his ability to excel at new tracks.
2.) Brazil is way shorter, as you mentioned, a driver can make a difference, and the times gaps are usually very small. Rosberg is magnificent driver around brazil. Watch his q2 from 2011 and you know what i am talking about.
3.) Nobody said they were not good in qualifying. in fact that was the only positive aspect that year. The main problem was their race pace. So I don't see how this speculation about clawing down some tenth (in qualifying) makes any sense. What Mercedes needs more than speed is a car that doesn't chew their tires in the first laps. A comparison between the cars only on basis of qualifying is not a good idea. In this scenario Ferrari would be down on the 4th or 5th place over the whole season.

Edited by 1Devil1, 11 February 2013 - 14:14.


#1103 Clatter

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:05

Oh yeah that's completely false to judge the performance of the car because of two random qualifying sessions.

1.) In the US Michael used the conda exhaust, had a perfect lap. In the race he was so slow he was eaten alive because he had to carry more than twenty kilos more fuels than his opponents. Add his ability to excel at new tracks.
2.) Brazil is way shorter, as you mentioned, a driver can make a difference, and the times gaps are usually very small. Rosberg is magnificent driver around brazil. Watch his q2 from 2011 and you know what i am talking about.
3.) Nobody said they were not good in qualifying. in fact that was the only positive aspect that year. The main problem was their race pace. So I don't see how this speculation about clawing down some tenth (in qualifying) makes any sense. What Mercedes needs more than speed is a car that doesn't chew their tires in the first laps. A comparison between the cars only on basis of qualifying is not a good idea. In this scenario Ferrari would be down on the 4th or 5th place over the whole season.


Is that a fact? Why didn't the other Merc powered teams need the same amount of extra fuel?


#1104 1Devil1

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:13

Is that a fact? Why didn't the other Merc powered teams need the same amount of extra fuel?


German AMuS they speak about ten kilos. I am sure I read a source referring to tewnty kilos. If a find that source I will add it here

http://www.auto-moto...en-6297813.html

#1105 BernieEc

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:17

Oh yeah that's completely false to judge the performance of the car because of two random qualifying sessions.

1.) In the US Michael used the conda exhaust, had a perfect lap. In the race he was so slow he was eaten alive because he had to carry more than twenty kilos more fuels than his opponents. Add his ability to excel at new tracks.
2.) Brazil is way shorter, as you mentioned, a driver can make a difference, and the times gaps are usually very small. Rosberg is magnificent driver around brazil. Watch his q2 from 2011 and you know what i am talking about.
3.) Nobody said they were not good in qualifying. in fact that was the only positive aspect that year. The main problem was their race pace. So I don't see how this speculation about clawing down some tenth (in qualifying) makes any sense. What Mercedes needs more than speed is a car that doesn't chew their tires in the first laps. A comparison between the cars only on basis of qualifying is not a good idea. In this scenario Ferrari would be down on the 4th or 5th place over the whole season.


First of all I was responding to the poster that said Merc was 1.5 seconds down. I made an assumption that this was in reference to qualifying. Please correct me if am wrong. The chewing of the tyres I heard they attributed to their complex suspension system and placement of their exhaust solution which was heating up the rear tyres. They were basically down about a second and a bit on the top running cars. There was also the issue of the overall downforce which some say helps tyre management.

if they claw this back and stop exhaust from heating the rear tyres, and also their suspension issues (that allegedly affected the tyre management as well) then whats wrong with what I posted.

unless you mean the poster was referring to Merc being down 1.5 secs a lap??

you also mention 20 kilos more fuel than all other cars. does this include force india and McLaren ? cos I am pretty sure they use the same engine . Why would their fuel management or quantity be different from those other 2 teams??? or are they using a different spec engine

Edited by BernieEc, 11 February 2013 - 14:19.


#1106 Masenco

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:25

First of all I was responding to the poster that said Merc was 1.5 seconds down. I made an assumption that this was in reference to qualifying. Please correct me if am wrong. The chewing of the tyres I heard they attributed to their complex suspension system and placement of their exhaust solution which was heating up the rear tyres. They were basically down about a second and a bit on the top running cars. There was also the issue of the overall downforce which some say helps tyre management.

if they claw this back and stop exhaust from heating the rear tyres, and also their suspension issues (that allegedly affected the tyre management as well) then whats wrong with what I posted.

unless you mean the poster was referring to Merc being down 1.5 secs a lap??

you also mention 20 kilos more fuel than all other cars. does this include force india and McLaren ? cos I am pretty sure they use the same engine . Why would their fuel management or quantity be different from those other 2 teams??? or are they using a different spec engine


As I recall, their additional fuel load had to do with the exhaust setup and them attempting to use the coanda effect.
So if they sort it out, there should be a few tenths they could pick up from it.


#1107 Clatter

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:25

German AMuS they speak about ten kilos. I am sure I read a source referring to tewnty kilos. If a find that source I will add it here

http://www.auto-moto...en-6297813.html


That article refers to starting with 10 litres more, but doesn't say more than their opponents. Sounds more like with the new exhaust they caught up with the fuel loads that the others were already using.

#1108 jrg19

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:32

Posted Image

LH 2013 steering wheel.

Im not sure how it differs from the 2012 Mercedes but apparently he has got rid of 6 buttons already?

#1109 1Devil1

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:33

First of all I was responding to the poster that said Merc was 1.5 seconds down. I made an assumption that this was in reference to qualifying. Please correct me if am wrong. The chewing of the tyres I heard they attributed to their complex suspension system and placement of their exhaust solution which was heating up the rear tyres. They were basically down about a second and a bit on the top running cars. There was also the issue of the overall downforce which some say helps tyre management.

if they claw this back and stop exhaust from heating the rear tyres, and also their suspension issues (that allegedly affected the tyre management as well) then whats wrong with what I posted.

unless you mean the poster was referring to Merc being down 1.5 secs a lap??

you also mention 20 kilos more fuel than all other cars. does this include force india and McLaren ? cos I am pretty sure they use the same engine . Why would their fuel management or quantity be different from those other 2 teams??? or are they using a different spec engine


I think you can't tack the qualifying to judge if the car that can be placed at the podium or not. Look at Ferrari or Lotus, Mercedes was several times faster in qualifying because of their DRSS, and they right temperature window they found, just to fall back in the race. I can't see how it could be that easy saying just put on a new suspension system and some other adjustments and we are ready to bounce back in the race. In pirelli times, you need a car that works in qualifying and the race, and even more in the race to be competitive. My points is Mercedes was good in the qualifying, but completely failed in the races and they need to start to sort out their tires problem. Sometimes they were more than two seconds per lap slower, that is too much, it's not that easy task. Race pace counts or do you think otherwise?

I don't know about the coanda thing, Brawn was referring to carry around ten kilo more. It can be in comparison to Rosberg. So my use of opponents would be wrong, I have to admit

Edited by 1Devil1, 11 February 2013 - 14:35.


#1110 Timstr11

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:34

It sounds highly unbelievable to me that the works team don't know how to use their own engine economically.
I'm sure the fuel penalty of the coanda was not more than any other Mercedes team.
The problem was that it was not as effective as McLaren's coanda, but that was an aerodynamic problem. So you're carrying extra fuel for little or no gain.

Edited by Timstr11, 11 February 2013 - 14:34.


#1111 1Devil1

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:34

That article refers to starting with 10 litres more, but doesn't say more than their opponents. Sounds more like with the new exhaust they caught up with the fuel loads that the others were already using.


you are right, my fault. in comparison to rosberg I guess :up:

#1112 MercPower

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:36

Posted Image

LH 2013 steering wheel.

Im not sure how it differs from the 2012 Mercedes but apparently he has got rid of 6 buttons already?


Lewis asked if some button's which he thought he didn't need be removed and he has a Mercedes steering wheel at home to practice i have heard.

#1113 jrg19

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 14:55

Posted Image

Rake anyone?

#1114 undersquare

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 15:14

Rake anyone?

Mmmm nice, hope it's not just the perspective. AFAIK they'd need a trick floor to do anything more than all the other teams, but it would be great if they've found something.

#1115 dans79

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 16:13

Lewis asked if some button's which he thought he didn't need be removed and he has a Mercedes steering wheel at home to practice i have heard.


MS explaining his wheel



#1116 BernieEc

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 16:13

Posted Image

Rake anyone?


is it me or does the rear of the car look tidier than in the launch picture??


#1117 olliek88

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 16:57

Posted Image

LH 2013 steering wheel.

Im not sure how it differs from the 2012 Mercedes but apparently he has got rid of 6 buttons already?


The 2012 version for comparison -

Posted Image

Edited by olliek88, 11 February 2013 - 16:58.


#1118 dans79

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 17:21

looks like they both have 23 functions, I thought LH had them remove some?

#1119 BillBald

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:04

That article refers to starting with 10 litres more, but doesn't say more than their opponents. Sounds more like with the new exhaust they caught up with the fuel loads that the others were already using.


Yes, but MS was really very slow in USA, so it's possible to believe he was carrying more fuel than anyone - or maybe the setup was all wrong for full fuel.



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#1120 olliek88

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:13

The 2013 one does look a bit cleaner, it appears as though its still got the same number of operations but with the writing both on the buttons and short hand its looks less cluttered, the rotary colours have been simplified too.

#1121 femi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:14

I think Lewis is referring more to his mindset than the pace of the car; he wants to make it clear to the world that he doesn't expect Merc to be better than the McLaren straight away- as no doubt some people will be judging Lewis' decision straight off the bat if the Merc is slower than the McLaren.
I think he's very concerned with his image.



LH is rarely bullish even at Mclaren. I noticed on several occassions, he had deliberately played down the chances of winning. And this is not to knock JB, but he is frequently bullish during race weekends. What I am getting to is the car may actually be faster than LH is letting on. Hell, Rosberg was carefully bullish and NIKI was outright bullish.

One thing we can be sure of is we are going to see some fantastic races from LH this year. He is going to Woooow us :)

#1122 MercPower

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:15

Posted Image

Rake anyone?


Expecting this years car to be at least 1 second per lap faster Min

#1123 femi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:19

looks like they both have 23 functions, I thought LH had them remove some?



Looks pretty old fashioned. Never seen a F1 steering with so many rotary switches. Can anyone manipulating those switches with driving gloves on? Must be very distracting especially if you have to combine many of them to achieve desired effect. That is one complexity they need to simplify...fast!

#1124 olliek88

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:28

Looks pretty old fashioned. Never seen a F1 steering with so many rotary switches. Can anyone manipulating those switches with driving gloves on? Must be very distracting especially if you have to combine many of them to achieve desired effect. That is one complexity they need to simplify...fast!


Most steering wheels have a similar number of rotary switches, 5 to 7 is the norm.

#1125 femi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:29

MS explaining his wheel


Maybe he designed it - MS I mean.
Can someone post the Mclaren steering wheel for comparison please?

#1126 olliek88

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:30

Maybe he designed it - MS I mean.
Can someone post the Mclaren steering wheel for comparison please?


Posted Image

Mclaren's is probably the cleanest, simplest steering wheel on the grid though.

Edited by olliek88, 11 February 2013 - 18:31.


#1127 femi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:47

Posted Image

Mclaren's is probably the cleanest, simplest steering wheel on the grid though.


Thanks mate, the Mclaren's look a lot simpler.

#1128 MrPodium

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 18:57

Maybe he designed it - MS I mean.
Can someone post the Mclaren steering wheel for comparison please?


I remember reading somewhere once that Schumacher had design input into the steering wheel, as he liked the way the controls were set out in his Ferrari, especially the dials.

#1129 r4mses

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 19:10

I'd say the steering wheel is the only part of the car where desingers should hear and do what drivers think is best. Afterall they're the ones who have to deal with the buttons and switches while running at 350km/h.

#1130 Szoelloe

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 19:14

I'd say the steering wheel is the only part of the car where desingers should hear and do what drivers think is best. Afterall they're the ones who have to deal with the buttons and switches while running at 350km/h.


Which, I assume is what they do.


#1131 SmokeScreen

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:12

Which, I assume is what they do.






#1132 TomNokoe

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:14

you have to love Gary Anderson! http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21417831
now all of a sudden Merc are front runners thanks to his highly scientific number crunching...!

#1133 femi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:16

If a driver needed to do 4 clicks right on corner entry and 6 clicks left on exit, that is your understeer and oversteer right there... maybe I am onto something :)

Edited by femi, 11 February 2013 - 20:22.


#1134 Markn93

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:19

you have to love Gary Anderson! http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21417831
now all of a sudden Merc are front runners thanks to his highly scientific number crunching...!

Probably closer to reality than the first assessment. The real question though is why is he looking into these numbers and publishing any sort of 'analysis'? These cars are nothing like those that will appear in Melbourne and even the teams know that, look at Lewis' quote.

#1135 femi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:20

you have to love Gary Anderson! http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21417831
now all of a sudden Merc are front runners thanks to his highly scientific number crunching...!


How accurate was he last season?

#1136 femi

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:21

Probably closer to reality than the first assessment. The real question though is why is he looking into these numbers and publishing any sort of 'analysis'? These cars are nothing like those that will appear in Melbourne and even the teams know that, look at Lewis' quote.


Perhaps out of a need to justify a pay hike

#1137 Markn93

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:22

Perhaps out of a need to justify a pay hike


This was the only reason I could think of too.

#1138 BernieEc

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 20:50

Does anyone have an idea how reliable AMuS is. I saw an article on there with regards to Mercedes confirming the expected predictions from their wind-tunnel.

AmuS Link

I used google translate so apologies if any got lost in translation

#1139 fdspd

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:07

you have to love Gary Anderson! http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21417831
now all of a sudden Merc are front runners thanks to his highly scientific number crunching...!


So, according to him Sauber is fastest and Merc third.

And does anyone else think GA's writing is difficult to read? I'm not a native english speaker, so my opinion on this might not mean anything; but I do feel he ought to take a writing a class or two.

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#1140 Masenco

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:37

So according to GA the rbr is 7 tenths slower than the sauber? Lol
I do hope though that merc was sandbagging or testing something during their long run with lewis, as gary pointed out, it seemed pretty slow and the tyre deg wasnt that good.

Long run pace was their weakness last year, hopefully they've sorted it out

Edited by Masenco, 11 February 2013 - 21:38.


#1141 dans79

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:42

And does anyone else think GA's writing is difficult to read?


I'm not sure he knows what a paragraph is.

I do hope though that merc was sandbagging or testing something during their long run with lewis, as gary pointed out, it seemed pretty slow and the tyre deg wasnt that good.

Long run pace was their weakness last year, hopefully they've sorted it out


I don't even think Lewis's times count. He ran with & without the passive DRS, and with two different front wings. I bet the setup was complete garbage and really on good for data gathering for CFD correlation.


#1142 jjcale

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:44

Does anyone have an idea how reliable AMuS is. I saw an article on there with regards to Mercedes confirming the expected predictions from their wind-tunnel.

AmuS Link

I used google translate so apologies if any got lost in translation


Crazy pro German bias in that article ... would not pay too much attention to anything they say about Vettel/Redbull or Merc.

#1143 johnwilliamdavies

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:44

That's not a Sauber that's quickest in GA's article.

Edited by johnwilliamdavies, 11 February 2013 - 21:45.


#1144 V3TT3L

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:49

The hard fact is Sauber broke the top speed record in Jerez.

That corroborates the Hulkenbeg statement about the C2's outstanding behaviour in fast corners.

I expect an even better test in Barcelona.

Edited by V3TT3L, 11 February 2013 - 21:54.


#1145 Markn93

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:55

So, according to him Sauber is fastest and Merc third.

And does anyone else think GA's writing is difficult to read? I'm not a native english speaker, so my opinion on this might not mean anything; but I do feel he ought to take a writing a class or two.

To be fair he didn't quite say that, " the quickest cars appear to be those of McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes, with Lotus not far behind. And Red Bull - the world champions for the last three years - look relatively slow."

#1146 Shiroo

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:56

Gary Anderson and his brilliant technical analyzes - they never stop to amaze me.

Posted Image

Edited by Shiroo, 11 February 2013 - 21:57.


#1147 Anja

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:57

Am I missing something in this article or are people forgetting that Perez does not drive in Sauber anymore?

Edited by Anja, 11 February 2013 - 21:58.


#1148 tarmac

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 21:59

His times are anomalous. Unlike Rosberg, he did do a race run, and it was very slow. But perhaps that's not a surprise, as it was race pace that Mercedes struggled with in 2012.


ruh roh. Full tank runs tell the truth

#1149 MadYarpen

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 22:18

Gary Anderson and his brilliant technical analyzes - they never stop to amaze me.

Posted Image

Just wait till Peter Windsor writes how much throttle did a driver have through a corner, basing on his fart sound and smell.

Edited by MadYarpen, 11 February 2013 - 22:18.


#1150 Masenco

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 22:20

Am I missing something in this article or are people forgetting that Perez does not drive in Sauber anymore?


Oops :p