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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#1151 MercPower

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:08

So according to Gary, Lewis Hamilton, the quickest driver in the sport is 1 second per lap down on his team mate.



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#1152 Vesuvius

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:16

Garys calculations are way off, don't know where the hell he gets his laptimes from...Lotus said they were running with plenty of petrol all test and red bull said the same. I'm sure mclaren did as well but no way were mclaren 0,7 seconds faster than red bull at jerez! Everyone who were at the test say Red Bull and McLaren looked the best cars really closely followed by Lotus and Ferrari than Mercedes.

#1153 alframsey

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:17

Before testing I really wasn't optimistic about the Merc's chances this year, then after NR day I was feeling better about stuff. Now I'm all not expecting much again, I just find it so difficult to expect anything from this team. I really do hope I'm wrong because I love Lewis (favourite driver and all :p ) and I've always been a fan of Nico, bring on Aus with a competitive Merc.

#1154 Vesuvius

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:17

So according to Gary, Lewis Hamilton, the quickest driver in the sport is 1 second per lap down on his team mate.


Mercedes own calculations say 0,3 seconds so Gary is making this out of his own mind.

#1155 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:22

I think as of the first test, they were definitely behind McLaren, Red Bull and etc. but the gap is much smaller than at the end of last year.

#1156 bonjon1979a

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:33

Yeah, anyone who claims they can start calculating how many tenths one team is faster or slower than the others after the first test is talking nonsense. You can see trends but calculating potential times on the basis of how many laps they did after setting a time are entirely bogus. A team could have more fuel in than needed for a run, they might also set that time on a set of worn tyres instead of new. Track temp, conditions etc are constantly evolving so you can't compare times set at different moments. It is frankly, farcical bollocks that he's churned out to get some cash for another 'analyst' article. I swear to god, some people on this board could offer a lot more insight.

#1157 Crafty

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Posted 11 February 2013 - 23:40

Fact is no-one really knows what the pecking order is, not us, not Anderson or the rest of the media.

The teams will have some idea by studying their rivals through sound recordings, photographs and video footage, but even they won't know for sure.

Its just all part of the game.

Anderson's "corrected" lap times look highly suspect, not only is Lewis a second slower than Nico, Webber is nine tenths off Vettel, Hulkenberg is slower than Gutierrez by the same amount and Pastor is eight tenths off Bottas.

Not saying he's completely wrong but its hard to see where the Merc (or any other car) is.

In any case, its the development of the car thats going to be more important I think. Look at the silver donkey that McLaren produced, worse than any car Merc have made (imho) but they ended up winning a race with it.
Lets hope the Merc is a reliable platform that responds well to further development through the year. It seems that both the team and drivers are really keen on keeping the development pace up.



#1158 akshay380

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 00:15

Does anyone have an idea how reliable AMuS is. I saw an article on there with regards to Mercedes confirming the expected predictions from their wind-tunnel.

AmuS Link

I used google translate so apologies if any got lost in translation


Jenson Button: "We have a good base on which we can build the new car is still slower than the old one, but the new approach gives us more room for development..."


I found above quote interesting. Assuming no sandbagging is done, I believe he implies they still dont have enough downforce compared to 2012 car. Hamilton said Mercedes W04 lacks downforce compared to Mclarens 2012 car. So now it all depends upon who develops the car better until Melbourne?

#1159 study

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 00:25

I didn't think there was that much of a rule change from 2012 to 2013, where are all the teams suddenly losing the downforce from?
Is it engine mapping changes?

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#1160 BernieEc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 00:33

Maybe new front wing flexi test has made some revise their design or maybe the AMuS article is just speculation

#1161 Masenco

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 00:36

I didn't think there was that much of a rule change from 2012 to 2013, where are all the teams suddenly losing the downforce from?
Is it engine mapping changes?


Martin whistmarsh said that for the mp4-28 they chose to change the front suspention from push rod to pull rod, although this would initially mean a slower car, it would give them more room to develop the car.
I'm not sure what you mean by all the teams, if there are other cars which have been said to be slower than last year's could you please post a link?

#1162 study

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 00:42

Not slower, just that they are making up on the downforce from last year.

#1163 BigCHrome

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 01:10

The more stringent FW tests definitely could've caused a decrease in downforce. Also, since the tires are softer, it's possible that teams won't be able to run as much wing since they might not be able to take advantage of the extra cornering speed.

#1164 NoDivergence

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:07

It's because of 1. The setups they have to use to maintain at least some life in the tires at Jerez
and
2. They are using 2012 parts on a 2013 chassis
The front wing is not optimized for the redesigned pullrod front suspension and so the flow redirection by the front wing won't be right. That and the wing won't be configured for the higher nose allowing more flow under the floor and around the sidepods, so plenty of room to get more downforce

#1165 teejay

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 05:11

Pirelli and all teams have said that Jerez is woeful on tyres.

I would not be making any gueses good or bad about tyre life under the next test.

#1166 BernieEc

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 09:08

Not sure where to post this as there is no hamilton/rosberg thread and personally I won't dream of opening one, still have memories of the gangland warfare of the button vs hamilton thread.

Hamilton says rosberg is underestimated

http://www.gptoday.c...underestimated/

This might put into perspective what sergio perez alleged to that rosberg is one of the fastest on the grid


#1167 Timstr11

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:46

I've missed this quote from Mr Lauda:

"Das Auto funktioniert gut, sieht zuverlässig aus. Er ist im Moment einen Tick schneller als der Rest. Meine Freude ist, dass der Mercedes schon jetzt mit den drei besten Teams mithalten kann", bilanzierte der Österreicher.



#1168 bauss

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:52

GA analysis while possessing many caveats and all is still light years better than the rubbish last year of AB where he just took the average lap times of the cars on test day n made his Aus. grid.

Well, the positive thing is Hulkenberg said the Merc. looked good when he observed....

Not surprised that NR is rated as very strong by LH....someone that beat (a 40 yr old) MS fairly damn convincingly cannot be a slouch at all. New best pairing on the grid...

If Merc can provide them with a top car, especially with teams like Sauber (apparently looked the best in high speed corners in Jerez), Williams n co showing decent form. The battle for Q3 will be pretty damn explosive, talkless of pole.

We say this every time, but this season truly does look like it might be the closest ever... only person that can spoil that is Newey :mad:

Edited by bauss, 12 February 2013 - 10:54.


#1169 bauss

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 10:56

I've missed this quote from Mr Lauda:



the one faster than the rest is the Red Bull, but he thinks we can compete with the top 3

#1170 apoka

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:36

I've missed this quote from Mr Lauda:

"Er" refers to Vettel in the article. He basically says that Vettel appears to be a bit faster, but Merc is on a similar level as the top 3 teams.


#1171 Timstr11

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:42

Ok. Thx both.

#1172 ivand911

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 13:35

Not surprised that NR is rated as very strong by LH....someone that beat (a 40 yr old) MS fairly damn convincingly cannot be a slouch at all.

And you say that by just looking the end WDC results? Did you watched race weekends live? Nico beat Michael convincingly only in 2010. And I mean the 2/3rd of the 2010. After that things were pretty equal. Michael was even stronger at the times. I guess 2013 will prove how strong Nico was(comparing to Lewis), and this will prove how strong was 43 year old Michael Schumacher. Guy who take pole at Monaco can't be bad.
About the steering wheel complexity, it is no strange why you can hit somebody from behind in Singapore. :drunk:


#1173 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 13:39

Topic is W04, please keep the thread on topic

#1174 Mick34

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Posted 12 February 2013 - 23:32

I am very curious about the real performance of this MGP-car. Would be really sad if they are going to deliver just when Michael has stepped out......

#1175 Harry

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 04:30

Taken from the opening paragraph of the AS article:

"Mika Hakkinen believes Mercedes' early form from last week's Jerez test makes it unlikely that Lewis Hamilton will be able to challenge his former team McLaren this year."

Ouch.

#1176 TF110

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:24

Key words are "early form".

#1177 teejay

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 05:41

I am very curious about the real performance of this MGP-car. Would be really sad if they are going to deliver just when Michael has stepped out......


I suspect Lewis wouldnt be sad at all :p

#1178 BernieEc

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 06:52

New Mercedes too early to assess
http://www.gptoday.c...arly_to_assess/

It is too early to say just how good the new Mercedes is, according to team boss Ross Brawn. After an up-and-down first test for the new silver W04, former double world champion Mika Hakkinen admitted he suspects the car is "not exactly up to the speed I expected them to be".
"I don't see them competing too much this year," the Finn is quoted by the Sun. When asked a similar question by Germany's Auto Motor und Sport, Mercedes team boss said his first impression of the performance of the W04 was "good". "We still have work to do on the degradation of the tyres. But the problem is that Jerez in the winter is not very representative, " added the Briton. "The numbers are promising. The downforce is as the wind tunnel predicted, as is the behaviour of the car." Asked if the team will have to wait until Barcelona to know exactly how the W04 is shaping up, Brawn answered: "Maybe later. "It can also be very cool in Barcelona. We will probably only be able to say in Australia and Malaysia." Brawn also confirmed that - with top technical minds including Aldo Costa, Bob Bell and Geoff Willis all now working for Mercedes - the team already has a design team working exclusively on the 2014 car. "Ferrari announced a while ago that they have two teams working on the 2013 and 2014 cars and that is what we have also done," he said. "We have even gone so far that we have selected the most promising of several concept proposals. "The transition (of development between the 2013 and 2014 projects) will be smooth, not from one day to the other." Meanwhile, with Niki Lauda and Toto Wolff shaking up Mercedes' management amid rumours McLaren's Paddy Lowe is being courted, Brawn insisted his top job is actually not in danger. "I am settled," he is quoted by the Mirror. "I have got no problems."
(GMM)


I am happy with the fact he says it correlates with the wind-tunnel numbers

Edited by BernieEc, 13 February 2013 - 06:53.


#1179 TF110

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 09:32

Basically. Keep it simple. Lets talk about the car and team. IMO it's looking decent for them. The drop off of tires can be attributed to the surface at Jerez. Barcelona may give us a better indication. They'll more than likely have some updates to the car. We can only assume and hope they do, and are visible.

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#1180 Reinmuster

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 10:19

Key words are "early form".


Let's see where Merc will be after first 4 races. Hope Mika's wrong.




#1181 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 12:12

Basically. Keep it simple. Lets talk about the car and team. IMO it's looking decent for them. The drop off of tires can be attributed to the surface at Jerez. Barcelona may give us a better indication. They'll more than likely have some updates to the car. We can only assume and hope they do, and are visible.

I've been thinking about this. Looking over the pics from Day 4, with new rear bodywork and fw, I think there's still the possibility they shrink the bodywork back there even more from this pic http://www.f1fanatic...ere-2013-22.jpg the bodywork from the exhaust leading to the coke bottle could be lessened a la Mclaren in this pic, http://images.thecar...100389472_l.jpg where it curves inwards as opposed to following the shape of the coke bottle. I also have a feeling they will update the nose/vanity panel somehow, as this currently looks like a temporary, dare I say it, not as well thought out idea, as some of the other teams. I also expect an updated rear wing, with possibly some strakes which other top teams seem to have, like RB in this pic http://www.f1fanatic...ere-2013-22.jpg

By the way I found the Merc/RB pics very good for comparisons as they are taken at such similar angles, similary from these two pics, Merc - http://www.f1fanatic...-jere-20136.jpg RB - http://www.f1fanatic...-jere-20131.jpg

#1182 femi

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 14:13

Let's see where Merc will be after first 4 races. Hope Mika's wrong.


He will be wrong, he has been wrong before. Let's not forget Mika is still a Mclaren man... He may be voicing what Mclaren are hoping for but I don't think it's going to happen.
I am hoping for a very pleasant surprise from Merc. What I feel coming out of Merc is controlled excitement. They seem genuinely pleased.

#1183 V3TT3L

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 14:26

Mika is right.

Australia has a low grip track. Lower downforce will make them slower.
Sephang has an abrasive track. Lower downforce will cause higher tire degradation.

So, early strugle is predicted.

Jerez is a low speed circuit, lets see Barcelona.
Mercedes might fall behind a bit.

#1184 slmk

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 14:40

Mika is right.

Australia has a low grip track. Lower downforce will make them slower.
Sephang has an abrasive track. Lower downforce will cause higher tire degradation.

So, early strugle is predicted.

Jerez is a low speed circuit, lets see Barcelona.
Mercedes might fall behind a bit.


They still have a month+ to find more downforce. As long as they have correlation to the wind tunnel/CFD models and a good base to work on, that's a positive. If they have fixed the suspensions re: tyre wear, that's even better.

Though I'd agree it's still a bit worrying that with all the brainiacs at Mercedes, they are still down on (rear?) downforce. Hopefully they are able to unlock this in the coming tests/early GPs.

Mercedes did very well in Australia last year (at least in qualifying), FYI.


#1185 inca_roads

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 15:01

They still have a month+ to find more downforce. As long as they have correlation to the wind tunnel/CFD models and a good base to work on, that's a positive. If they have fixed the suspensions re: tyre wear, that's even better.

Though I'd agree it's still a bit worrying that with all the brainiacs at Mercedes, they are still down on (rear?) downforce. Hopefully they are able to unlock this in the coming tests/early GPs.

Mercedes did very well in Australia last year (at least in qualifying), FYI.


Plus, it could very well rain at one of the first two races, and if it does, it'll be more about the driver than car, relatively, than it usually would be, and they're hardly lacking in that regard.

#1186 Masenco

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 15:02

They still have a month+ to find more downforce. As long as they have correlation to the wind tunnel/CFD models and a good base to work on, that's a positive. If they have fixed the suspensions re: tyre wear, that's even better.

Though I'd agree it's still a bit worrying that with all the brainiacs at Mercedes, they are still down on (rear?) downforce. Hopefully they are able to unlock this in the coming tests/early GPs.


Mercedes did very well in Australia last year (at least in qualifying), FYI.


They are probably abit down on it compared to the top 3 teams yes, but in a much better position compared to last year.
The most important thing is that they have made a big step in the right direction and that is exactly what they predicted- therefore showing that they have a good understanding now of the design concept they are following.
Now that they are sure that their concept works, I expect their rate of development to increase.


#1187 BernieEc

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 15:02

He will be wrong, he has been wrong before. Let's not forget Mika is still a Mclaren man... He may be voicing what Mclaren are hoping for but I don't think it's going to happen.
I am hoping for a very pleasant surprise from Merc. What I feel coming out of Merc is controlled excitement. They seem genuinely pleased.


Dare I say with your above post you are tampering with the mood-O-meter and gradually moving it to the positive side

#1188 Raziel

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 15:38

He will be wrong, he has been wrong before. Let's not forget Mika is still a Mclaren man... He may be voicing what Mclaren are hoping for but I don't think it's going to happen.
I am hoping for a very pleasant surprise from Merc. What I feel coming out of Merc is controlled excitement. They seem genuinely pleased.



Actually for the past 3 years (since Mercedes' takeover of Brawn) Mika was in much closer relationship with Mercedes then Mclaren. You could have seen him in Mercedes AMG T-shirt and Mercedes motor home much more often. Also in the past 3 years he much more mentioned and praised them then McLaren. I have to admit that I'm very surprised that Mika changed his tune and it seems that he is angry at this new Mercedes F1 team led by new people like Lauda, Wolff.. Don't forget that Mika was/is in great great relationship with Norbert Haug so probably he is frustrated that Norby was sacked. :/

#1189 Shiroo

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 15:42

He will be wrong, he has been wrong before. Let's not forget Mika is still a Mclaren man... He may be voicing what Mclaren are hoping for but I don't think it's going to happen.
I am hoping for a very pleasant surprise from Merc. What I feel coming out of Merc is controlled excitement. They seem genuinely pleased.

they are pleased every year. And Nico every year is saying "DAT CAR SO GUD". Wait till first race, I dare you. I double dare you, wait till first race

#1190 10e10

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 15:45

Actually for the past 3 years (since Mercedes' takeover of Brawn) Mika was in much closer relationship with Mercedes then Mclaren. You could have seen him in Mercedes AMG T-shirt and Mercedes motor home much more often. Also in the past 3 years he much more mentioned and praised them then McLaren. I have to admit that I'm very surprised that Mika changed his tune and it seems that he is angry at this new Mercedes F1 team led by new people like Lauda, Wolff.. Don't forget that Mika was/is in great great relationship with Norbert Haug so probably he is frustrated that Norby was sacked. :/


You are right, Mika even appeared in "Tooned" with a Mercedes' outfit instead of a McLaren's one.

#1191 AndriesvanOverbeeke

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:04

He guys, I have made this painting of our new Mercedes driver. I'm really looking forward to this new chapter for Lewis as well as for Mercedes!
I hope you like! It measures 100 x 70 cm.

Posted Image

#1192 dhill39

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:15

That's nice good job,you should sell that.

#1193 F1ultimate

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:17

That's an excellent split between his past and his awesome future at the Petronas team!

#1194 trueracing

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:19

^ Nice work!

#1195 MP422

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:43

Nice painting. Nice detail, I cannot draw or paint to save my life.

#1196 KiloWatt

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:46

Very nice! I like the way he seems to be looking towards the Mercedes side (turquise). Don't know if that was deliberate, but if it was, it sends a nice message.

Bloody hell, how does one spell turquise? Turqoise? I cannot think today...

Edited by KiloWatt, 13 February 2013 - 16:47.


#1197 femi

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:47

Dare I say with your above post you are tampering with the mood-O-meter and gradually moving it to the positive side


That may be so but not done to ineject a feel-good-factor. It seems to me that quite a number of folks want to ignore the fact that Merc had a good test and there is more to come. This is not the W03. Anyway, LH is not going to say anything that will flatter the car. Both LH and Rosberg made it clear that they were not at all worried by Ferrari fast time and that is saying something.

I can bet you Wolf is not going to come out that if Merc did not end the season at least 4th, he would have failed. He must have numbers to back that up... At his level business men don't bet with their privileged position lightly. There are other reasons to be less pessimistic and they are not hard to find...

#1198 femi

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:50

He guys, I have made this painting of our new Mercedes driver. I'm really looking forward to this new chapter for Lewis as well as for Mercedes!
I hope you like! It measures 100 x 70 cm.

Posted Image


Very nice...well done! Candidate for my wallpaper

#1199 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:52

That may be so but not done to ineject a feel-good-factor. It seems to me that quite a number of folks want to ignore the fact that Merc had a good test and there is more to come. This is not the W03. Anyway, LH is not going to say anything that will flatter the car. Both LH and Rosberg made it clear that they were not at all worried by Ferrari fast time and that is saying something.

I can bet you Wolf is not going to come out that if Merc did not end the season at least 4th, he would have failed. He must have numbers to back that up... At his level business men don't bet with their privileged position lightly. There are other reasons to be less pessimistic and they are not hard to find...


Agree with the LH and NR assessment, even if Nico's record of always talking the car up doesn't help, but am unsure about Toto. He's new to the 'big boys table' no disrespect to Williams meant, and may feel some sort of responsibility to promise these things.

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#1200 maverick69

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:53

That may be so but not done to ineject a feel-good-factor. It seems to me that quite a number of folks want to ignore the fact that Merc had a good test and there is more to come. This is not the W03. Anyway, LH is not going to say anything that will flatter the car. Both LH and Rosberg made it clear that they were not at all worried by Ferrari fast time and that is saying something.

I can bet you Wolf is not going to come out that if Merc did not end the season at least 4th, he would have failed. He must have numbers to back that up... At his level business men don't bet with their privileged position lightly. There are other reasons to be less pessimistic and they are not hard to find...


Well put Femi :up: