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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#1201 BernieEc

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:54

Agree with the LH and NR assessment, even if Nico's record of always talking the car up doesn't help, but am unsure about Toto. He's new to the 'big boys table' no disrespect to Williams meant, and may feel some sort of responsibility to promise these things.


What about Lauda. He recently alluded to the same thing saying Merc can fight with the top 3.

Edited by BernieEc, 13 February 2013 - 16:57.


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#1202 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:56

What about Lauda. He recently alluded to the same thing saying Merc can fight witht he top 3.

Good point, only hope Ross can provide some stability.

#1203 svalgis

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 16:59

Taken from the opening paragraph of the AS article:

"Mika Hakkinen believes Mercedes' early form from last week's Jerez test makes it unlikely that Lewis Hamilton will be able to challenge his former team McLaren this year."

Ouch.

http://www.autosport....php/id/104480/
http://www.autosport....php/id/105395/
http://www.autosport....php/id/105397/
http://www.autosport....php/id/105464/

how strange, it's almost as if no one except naive fanboys already knew this since before 2012 even ended. thanks for the info though, mika.

#1204 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:03

how strange, it's almost as if no one except naive fanboys already knew this since before 2012 even ended. thanks for the info though, mika.

Have you ever heard of managing expectations?

Lewis had an exceptionally fast car last year yet would do that all the time. To all intents and purposes it's his 'style' when it comes to discussing car performance in the media.

Edited by Markn93, 13 February 2013 - 17:05.


#1205 svalgis

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:04

so you mean there are people who seriously expected/expects merc to fight for the championship this year?

wow. have fun.

#1206 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:08

so you mean there are people who seriously expected/expects merc to fight for the championship this year?

wow. have fun.

I'm very impressed how you managed to see that, given I said nothing of the sort. Maybe there are though, I don't know. I expect most people hope at best to win a race or two with a handful of podiums, which as Alonso showed, can be enough to be in the title race.

#1207 Rinehart

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:20

so you mean there are people who seriously expected/expects merc to fight for the championship this year?

wow. have fun.


Everyone is guessing at the moment, no expectations are any more or less stupid at this stage.
Merc could have a stunning season, a disastrous one, or anything in between. They're a team in transition, where anything is possible.
Personally I feel TW's stated goal to finish in the top 4 and match the rate of development seems like a sensible target level... as he's the boss, I guess we should take his "success" statement as the official one...

...though it does seem less ambitions than they were a year ago and less ambitions than their intentions (LH, NL, TW, etc) would suggest. Privately they must surely be targeting significantly more ambitious goals even in 2013.


#1208 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:21

I'm very impressed how you managed to see that, given I said nothing of the sort. Maybe there are though, I don't know. I expect most people hope at best to win a race or two with a handful of podiums, which as Alonso showed, can be enough to be in the title race.


The Ferrari also showed improvement over the course of the season, whereas the W03 slid backwards into midfield mediocrity.

All of the customer cars by the end of the season were outperforming the factory team. McLaren was a given as they pretty much did so for the entire season, but Force India surpassed Merc as well. That doesn't take into account that Sauber had a better car and so did Williams. If I were anyone associated with this team, I'd be more focused on attempting to get ahead of the midfield teams before worrying about winning races or standing on podiums. This team has yet to prove they can field a competitive car for the bulk of the season.

Until they can get to a point where instead of watching the McLarens, the Red Bulls, the Ferraris, and the Lotus rain lights disappearing off into the distance at the start of every Grand Prix, no one should expect anything out of this team other than to be a midfield contender that will possibly break into the top here and there.

#1209 MP422

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:26

so you mean there are people who seriously expected/expects merc to fight for the championship this year?

wow. have fun.


Yes. They will fight for the title, if they don't they have no business being on the grid. They have all the ingredients to succeed.

#1210 svalgis

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:35

going from 5th in wcc and 9th/13th in wdc to 1st in either would be very impressive. personally i'll keep my expectations in check.

#1211 MP422

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 17:45

going from 5th in wcc and 9th/13th in wdc to 1st in either would be very impressive. personally i'll keep my expectations in check.


We gotta wait and see, the car doesn't look too great but it doesn't look too bad. I think it's gonna be RBR/Ferrari personally at the end.

#1212 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:00

We gotta wait and see, the car doesn't look too great but it doesn't look too bad. I think it's gonna be RBR/Ferrari personally at the end.

if you look at the beginning of 2012 that car also didn't look too bad....
then we all know how it ended

however, there is really no good indication of where the car will be this season and I think it's unfair to criticise them at the moment.

#1213 KiloWatt

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:01

The Ferrari also showed improvement over the course of the season, whereas the W03 slid backwards into midfield mediocrity.

All of the customer cars by the end of the season were outperforming the factory team. McLaren was a given as they pretty much did so for the entire season, but Force India surpassed Merc as well. That doesn't take into account that Sauber had a better car and so did Williams. If I were anyone associated with this team, I'd be more focused on attempting to get ahead of the midfield teams before worrying about winning races or standing on podiums. This team has yet to prove they can field a competitive car for the bulk of the season.

Until they can get to a point where instead of watching the McLarens, the Red Bulls, the Ferraris, and the Lotus rain lights disappearing off into the distance at the start of every Grand Prix, no one should expect anything out of this team other than to be a midfield contender that will possibly break into the top here and there.


Did I miss something? McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull sure. But lets not get ahead of ourselves here, last time I checked, mercedes beat Lotus 2 seasons out of 3.

#1214 BernieEc

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:10

Have you ever heard of managing expectations?

Lewis had an exceptionally fast car last year yet would do that all the time. To all intents and purposes it's his 'style' when it comes to discussing car performance in the media.


Okay I get it now. When lewis, rosberg, brawn, lauda and toto wolff give their opinions and outlook about the car, thats managing expectation and are thus not being truly realistic in their heart and mind, but if mika gives his then thats a realistic and damning outlook. Even though the former are more privy to what should and could be expected and have been harping on about the same since the end of last year.

All I can say is........wow!!

#1215 RealRacing

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:11

Mercedes never cease to amaze me with their lofty goals:

"Wolff said he would take time to understand Mercedes's current structure before implementing changes. He has set the team the target of a top-four finish in the 2013 constructors' championship.

If the team finishes in the top four and is a regular frontrunner [that would be a good year]," he explained.

That's nothing less than one place higher than 2012, which, by most standards, I'd say was pretty poor. And Nico's comments were not much more ambitious...

#1216 f1fastestlap

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:13

Hmmm, seems lots of people here want them to fail...

#1217 svalgis

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:21

Mercedes never cease to amaze me with their lofty goals:

"Wolff said he would take time to understand Mercedes's current structure before implementing changes. He has set the team the target of a top-four finish in the 2013 constructors' championship.

If the team finishes in the top four and is a regular frontrunner [that would be a good year]," he explained.

That's nothing less than one place higher than 2012, which, by most standards, I'd say was pretty poor. And Nico's comments were not much more ambitious...

this is in line with what has been said since 2012. stable regulations means big leaps in the leaderboard is unlikely. i've taken this for granted and don't really understand where all the unrealistic optimism is coming from, considering no one in mercedes has ever stated that they are counting on fighting for the championships this year.

Edited by svalgis, 13 February 2013 - 19:06.


#1218 BernieEc

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:22

Hmmm, seems lots of people here want them to fail...


I agree and I will raise u 1 on top of that

It seems most who want to see merc fail, actually do want to see lewis fail. They couldn't care less about mercedes. If he had left for ferrari or redbull a similar discussion would be taking place in those threads as opposed to this one with the same posters I would imagine :)

#1219 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:27

Mercedes never cease to amaze me with their lofty goals:

"Wolff said he would take time to understand Mercedes's current structure before implementing changes. He has set the team the target of a top-four finish in the 2013 constructors' championship.

If the team finishes in the top four and is a regular frontrunner [that would be a good year]," he explained.

That's nothing less than one place higher than 2012, which, by most standards, I'd say was pretty poor. And Nico's comments were not much more ambitious...


Not in the least. It is, by all means, the right thing to communicate. It is realistic too. If the grid is as close as is expected, it will be a close, a very close and hard fought season for every team. The quality and the value of that position may be altogether different than the past seasons. If they overachieve, good on them. I have to say, Wolff started off making the right noises. I am interested in how this progresses.




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#1220 Kyo

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 18:46

Mercedes never cease to amaze me with their lofty goals:

"Wolff said he would take time to understand Mercedes's current structure before implementing changes. He has set the team the target of a top-four finish in the 2013 constructors' championship.

If the team finishes in the top four and is a regular frontrunner [that would be a good year]," he explained.

That's nothing less than one place higher than 2012, which, by most standards, I'd say was pretty poor. And Nico's comments were not much more ambitious...

They had 142 points last season. The 4th place had 303 points. Unless one of the other 4 teams completely fail in delivering this season they need to do much better to achieve 4th this season.

#1221 RealRacing

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:04

I really want Mercedes to succeed but it seems to me they have been saying the same thing for years now. Maybe I'm being too impatient and, as someone said, the evolution when things are relatively stable is slow and difficult, but it's one of the big car manufacturers we are talking about. I guess I just don't want to see them go the way of Toyota and in the process waste names like Schumacher and Hamilton...

#1222 svalgis

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:25

Hmmm, seems lots of people here want them to fail...

do you mean that realistic expectations based on the teams own goals for the upcoming season is the same as wanting them to fail, or what posts were you referring to?

Edited by svalgis, 13 February 2013 - 19:28.


#1223 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:33

Hmmm, seems lots of people here want them to fail...


Actually many of us would want to see Mercedes brand doing great in F1, despite the comments. It would be a really nice thing to see Silver Arrows regularly competing with Ferrari and McLaren for example.

But you see, after you keep reading the same statements from that team which currently represents Mercedes in F1, year after year, without almost any significant results whatsoever (and when that particular significant result came after the most expensive F1 car development in the history) - you get pissed off.

It wasn't Mercedes back then in 2009 and earlier years, but it's a very similar team.

It's Mercedes FFS. We want them to be up there and this team is constantly failing at doing that and they are always hoping for something, going somewhere etc. without any real consistent results. That sucks.

#1224 Szoelloe

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:36

Actually many of us would want to see Mercedes brand doing great in F1, despite the comments. It would be a really nice thing to see Silver Arrows regularly competing with Ferrari and McLaren for example.

But you see, after you keep reading the same statements from that team which currently represents Mercedes in F1, year after year, without almost any significant results whatsoever (and when that particular significant result came after the most expensive F1 car development in the history) - you get pissed off.

It wasn't Mercedes back then in 2009 and earlier years, but it's a very similar team.

It's Mercedes FFS. We want them to be up there and this team is constantly failing at doing that and they are always hoping for something, going somewhere etc. without any real consistent results. That sucks.


what are you talking about?


#1225 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:37

Okay I get it now. When lewis, rosberg, brawn, lauda and toto wolff give their opinions and outlook about the car, thats managing expectation and are thus not being truly realistic in their heart and mind, but if mika gives his then thats a realistic and damning outlook. Even though the former are more privy to what should and could be expected and have been harping on about the same since the end of last year.

All I can say is........wow!!


I don't get what you're saying. I believe Lewis, Nico and Brawn's comments are all cautiously optimistic, to some degree Toto's are too (let's leave Lauda out of this for the time being), which could all be true but I happen to be pretty sure Lewis likes downplaying things in the media, like I said. This leaves a bigger scope for there to be a nice surprise come the first race if they are in fact more competitive than many, as you say, who want Mercedes to fail, think. I don't think its 'not being realistic' rather a sense of keeping everything in check and not letting things such as expectations get out of hand.

I don't recall giving my opinion on Mika's comments because as of yet I am unsure how to take them. Perhaps they are influenced by the Haug departure, as a poster pointed out they are good friends, or maybe he truly believes what he says, which is fine but he may still be wrong, again as you said the formerly mentioned are much more privy to what is actually expected on track, as they obviously are more in the know, (I think this is where you think I thought otherwise).

Edited by Markn93, 13 February 2013 - 19:39.


#1226 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:49

Did I miss something? McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull sure. But lets not get ahead of ourselves here, last time I checked, mercedes beat Lotus 2 seasons out of 3.


Lotus also scored more than double the points Merc did last year in spite of Gros-shunt wiping out of a number of races he should have scored points in.


#1227 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 19:58

I agree and I will raise u 1 on top of that

It seems most who want to see merc fail, actually do want to see lewis fail. They couldn't care less about mercedes. If he had left for ferrari or redbull a similar discussion would be taking place in those threads as opposed to this one with the same posters I would imagine :)

A lot of people here couldn't have cared less about Mercedes until Lewis joined, you're right. But that goes for people on both sides of the fence. Why do you think this thread is longer than any of the other car threads? Its certainly not because Mercedes has done anything super interesting with the W04. :wave:

#1228 Guizotia

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 20:11

so you mean there are people who seriously expected/expects merc to fight for the championship this year?


:wave:

wow. have fun.


I am. Thanks! :up:

#1229 D.M.N.

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 20:33

I'm not going to remove posts here, I'm simply going to say to stay on topic - that is the development of the W04 - and to treat other users' opinions with respect. Like yourself, they too are entitled to an opinion. This is, after all, a two way traffic forum.

Thanks

#1230 BernieEc

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 20:40

I don't get what you're saying. I believe Lewis, Nico and Brawn's comments are all cautiously optimistic, to some degree Toto's are too (let's leave Lauda out of this for the time being), which could all be true but I happen to be pretty sure Lewis likes downplaying things in the media, like I said. This leaves a bigger scope for there to be a nice surprise come the first race if they are in fact more competitive than many, as you say, who want Mercedes to fail, think. I don't think its 'not being realistic' rather a sense of keeping everything in check and not letting things such as expectations get out of hand.

I don't recall giving my opinion on Mika's comments because as of yet I am unsure how to take them. Perhaps they are influenced by the Haug departure, as a poster pointed out they are good friends, or maybe he truly believes what he says, which is fine but he may still be wrong, again as you said the formerly mentioned are much more privy to what is actually expected on track, as they obviously are more in the know, (I think this is where you think I thought otherwise).


Apologies if you have made no reference to Mika's statement. I guess it was the post you were referring/replying to that had me confused

They might well be cautiously optimistic and trying to temper expectations like you mentioned. The fans are also expecting to see some sort of improvement but I haven't heard anyone talking about a WDC/WCC in 2013 as they know the regulations are fairly stable and it will take a massive leap to achieve that (Not impossible, but considering all factors a tad unrealistic).

but it seems some are picking up titbits (e.g Mika's opinion) from the internet about mercedes not being able to compete this year and coming to dump that in the forum. Whilst they are entitled to do that I just find it strange that since the team themselves have tempered expectations and are being realistic about their goals why such taunts should hold sway. Hence why I made a comment in a later post that it might not really be mercedes these taunts are aimed at but more at LH.

although having said all that, a fairy tale story in which they claim the WDC/WCC with a gap of 150 points is secretly harboured, but I don't think this is different from what fans of other teams secretly dream of (minus Red bull) :)

Edited by BernieEc, 13 February 2013 - 20:41.


#1231 BernieEc

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 20:44

A lot of people here couldn't have cared less about Mercedes until Lewis joined, you're right. But that goes for people on both sides of the fence. Why do you think this thread is longer than any of the other car threads? Its certainly not because Mercedes has done anything super interesting with the W04. :wave:


They hired toto and Lauda.and threatened Ross :) thats enough for 40 pages on the thread

anyways back on topic. Anyone make sense of what Rosberg is saying ? google translate doesn't really do justice

AMuS

Edited by BernieEc, 13 February 2013 - 20:45.


#1232 TF110

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 21:10

They'll be using a 60% scale windtunnel this year, compared to 50% for a good portion of last year. That will definitely help. If what they're speaking right now is true, in that they're getting what they thought on track from the tunnel, then it should be a bit better with updates working.

#1233 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 21:32

Apologies if you have made no reference to Mika's statement. I guess it was the post you were referring/replying to that had me confused

They might well be cautiously optimistic and trying to temper expectations like you mentioned. The fans are also expecting to see some sort of improvement but I haven't heard anyone talking about a WDC/WCC in 2013 as they know the regulations are fairly stable and it will take a massive leap to achieve that (Not impossible, but considering all factors a tad unrealistic).

but it seems some are picking up titbits (e.g Mika's opinion) from the internet about mercedes not being able to compete this year and coming to dump that in the forum. Whilst they are entitled to do that I just find it strange that since the team themselves have tempered expectations and are being realistic about their goals why such taunts should hold sway. Hence why I made a comment in a later post that it might not really be mercedes these taunts are aimed at but more at LH.

although having said all that, a fairy tale story in which they claim the WDC/WCC with a gap of 150 points is secretly harboured, but I don't think this is different from what fans of other teams secretly dream of (minus Red bull) :)


According to the Mercedes schedule, what was to be the W03 was supposed to be challenging for the championship in 2012. Now that 2013 is here, those projections have since been revised to somewhere in the future (2014). I don't see the point of even putting a year next to the plan of when they expect to be successful as it does nothing good for them. You've got a large fanbase who thinks 2014 is going to be the year of the Silver Arrow. While it could very well be, unless they show they're capable of learning something, and then executing their knowledge, I have little belief in their ability to challenge for a title. They spent most of last year chasing down the tire wear issue, and still had no solution when the checkered flag waved in Brazil. It has me wondering what their next blind alley may be. There's too much talk about hopes and dreams with this team. They should all just shut up and focus on building a competitive car.

Personally I don't mind if Lewis drives for Mercedes, and I'd be critical of this team no matter who was sitting next to Nico.

#1234 ApexMouse

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 21:49

Indeed. They have moved the goalposts every year since '10.

#1235 Timstr11

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 21:55

Posted Image

Rake anyone?

These pictures taken at the same angle give a bit of a rake comparison between Merc and Mclaren

Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by Timstr11, 13 February 2013 - 21:55.


#1236 study

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:01

I'd say Merc has more rake?

#1237 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:03

I'd say Merc has more rake?


Looks that way.

#1238 F1hooked

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:10

These pictures taken at the same angle give a bit of a rake comparison between Merc and Mclaren

Posted Image
Posted Image

And yet that McLaren will smash the merc this year no matter how much rake you put on that merc. Anyways you all have to remember this team was Honda a few years ago, they never looked like doing much and the DNA from the Honda days are still showing in merc now,

#1239 Nigol

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:12

Could be fuel, could be a bump. Maybe Sergio is much heavier than Lewis. :rotfl:

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#1240 F1hooked

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:16

These pictures taken at the same angle give a bit of a rake comparison between Merc and Mclaren

Posted Image
Posted Image

Also looking at that picture look how much bigger the merc sidepod is in that image. The 28 is a lot more refined. What the hell as merc been doing I thought they started work on this car early??

#1241 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:19

Also looking at that picture look how much bigger the merc sidepod is in that image. The 28 is a lot more refined. What the hell as merc been doing I thought they started work on this car early??


I was actually thinking how similar they look.

#1242 study

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:21

Really? you just come here to BS and knock? If you want to go down that route with the sidepods, look how the macs extends into the rear tyre wereas the mercs ends way before, and shows air between the sidepods and tyre

Edited by study, 13 February 2013 - 22:21.


#1243 Markn93

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:29

Really? you just come here to BS and knock? If you want to go down that route with the sidepods, look how the macs extends into the rear tyre wereas the mercs ends way before, and shows air between the sidepods and tyre

Me?

#1244 Shiroo

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:31

I'd say Merc has more rake?

and what does more rake give? looking more badass?

#1245 F1hooked

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:32

Really? you just come here to BS and knock? If you want to go down that route with the sidepods, look how the macs extends into the rear tyre wereas the mercs ends way before, and shows air between the sidepods and tyre

That is the angle of the picture taken not what's really happening, Look how much downwards angle to McLaren has on the top of the side-pod compared Merc, it makes the Merc look like a box.
So to Answer you Derogative question, NO i am not BS or Knocking.

#1246 chumma

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:33

and what does more rake give? looking more badass?

Allows more air to the diffuser at the back, and produces more downforce. But you can't run high rake if you don't have enough downforce to allow it, which means, fundamentally, the W04 does produce good downforce, albeit not to the standard of the McLaren, don't know about the others.

#1247 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:35

Pretty sure he was talking to F1hooked in his 'analysis' of the sidepods and how Merc's are 'less refined'.

I'm sure each team's sidepod shaping has its reasons and pros/cons. With access to high-level CFD programs and advanced windtunnels, I'm sure they know what they're doing. Not to say the Merc will be great, but I dont think we're in any situation to second-guess this specific part of their design.

#1248 Lokt

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:36

That is the angle of the picture taken not what's really happening, Look how much downwards angle to McLaren has on the top of the side-pod compared Merc, it makes the Merc look like a box.
So to Answer you Derogative question, NO i am not BS or Knocking.


Well tbh you are just guessing as we all are. Who knows at this stage who has the most DF and who don´t.

#1249 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:41

and what does more rake give? looking more badass?

Running more rake basically enlarges the working size of the diffuser assuming you have 'sealed' it as well.

Something to remember, though - its just testing. Teams will be experimenting with different ride heights for data collecting purposes too, so dont go thinking that just because it looks like the Merc has more rake there that

a) Mercedes have more downforce

or

b) Mclaren are incapable of running that same level of rake

It can be a positive sign, but its not some guarantee of performance.

#1250 F1hooked

F1hooked
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Posted 13 February 2013 - 22:42

Well tbh you are just guessing as we all are. Who knows at this stage who has the most DF and who don´t.


Lewis Hamilton said that it has less DF, and i was stating the size and shape of the side pods.