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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#101 Timstr11

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:53

It's not only tyres. Below are 2 quotes from James Allison on Lotus's move from 50 to 60% models mid-2011:

The team made progress in other areas, switching from a 50% to 60% wind tunnel model capable of running ride heights, yaw values and steer values that the other model couldn't get to.

The 60% wind tunnel has allowed us to expand dramatically the realism of the tests that we perform in our wind tunnel, so we get the car to more realistic steer and yaw values. Those are pretty fundamental things. That hopefully means that the car will be more tolerant of a wider range of cornering conditions.



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#102 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:57

That's the theory according to the article. Pirelli have to make both sizes of tyres (50% and 60%) and ISTR reading something previously which said the 60% ones were much more accurate.


I'm sorry. My usual misplaced sarcasm. I thought it was a widely know information. posted again, but that was in the old car thread, and the Haug one. So yes, I am quite familiar with that. :) there was info about that before the article too. I thought he did not read back, but since it was not posted here, my bad.

#103 Buttoneer

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 13:38

The problem with the old car threads is they had too much in them to follow, and many people didn't bother to venture in, so it's never certain that the information got out and I wouldn't like to assume knowledge.

#104 SunnyENTP

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 14:03

Uhh.. did you actually watch Merc in 2012? :D



Yes I did. But that was 2012. But 2014 and beyond is a a completely different case. Firstly starting from this year, the car would be different, different personnel (they have 2 teams working on their cars one for 2013 and one for 2014. A different wind tunnel and of course in 2014 different regulations. So yes I reiterate that in 2 - 3 years they would be top contenders and there I say even win WDC/WCC

#105 Grundle

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 16:32

2013 will bring back cheese tyres, I hope they design Tyre friendly suspension and predictable aero.

#106 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 17:09

2013 will bring back cheese tyres, I hope they design Tyre friendly suspension and predictable aero.


They said they designed a lego-suspension, tunnel upgrades combined with a state of the art sim, and knowledge of the new tyre construction should have helped the design process, but you can hardly say their aero was not predictable so far.

Edited by Szoelloe, 10 January 2013 - 17:50.


#107 TF110

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 22:43

really?

Yes, really. We obviously know a 60% scale is a lot better than 50% scale. Whether that makes them a front runner I'm not speculating on.

Edited by TF110, 10 January 2013 - 22:44.


#108 Owen

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:17

The Merc 2014 engine power unit was shown (and revved) to journalists today.

Edited by Owen, 11 January 2013 - 13:28.


#109 BoschKurve

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:09

Well, not nothing. On that day their car used the tyres better than anyone else. I'm sure they learned something from it.


This is more of a general statement, but how does anyone really know the tire compounds were identical in makeup for all of the teams? I've had a lot of suspicions about the tire compounds early in the season.

#110 Clatter

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:17

The Merc 2014 engine power unit was shown (and revved) to journalists today.


Where was this reported?

#111 Rybo

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:37

Where was this reported?


James Allen

#112 jrg19

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:38

I think Will Buxton was there too.

#113 senna da silva

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:46

This is more of a general statement, but how does anyone really know the tire compounds were identical in makeup for all of the teams? I've had a lot of suspicions about the tire compounds early in the season.


Its a conspiracy. :p

#114 Timstr11

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:56

James Allen

Off-topic for this thread. I created a new thread for the 2014 power units as I couldn't find an existing appropriate thread:
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=179763

#115 BoschKurve

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:56

Its a conspiracy. :p


Well it's not really a conspiracy per se.

Tire compounds aren't even identical in the same batches due to a lot of variables.

#116 senna da silva

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:03

Well it's not really a conspiracy per se.

Tire compounds aren't even identical in the same batches due to a lot of variables.


I don't disagree. My point is they would have learned something about optimal working tyre temp. Regardless of whether they could repeat that or not.

#117 jav

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:40

Everything, except of course real facts and the last 3 years.


:lol: Accurate post!

I predict AMG will have their best season yet! They will finish 4th and be closer to 3rd than ever before! The move forward will be lauded as great progress and despite the mediocrity, hope will be rekindled in all those with short memories.

#118 DutchCruijff

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 17:09

I don't see how anyone can suggest anything other than 4th and below. They've not got the man-power, the funds and experience that McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari boast. And at the same time, they've done nothing to suggest that they'll be able to develop a car throughout the course of a season whilst keeping in touch with the leaders, something Lotus/Renault have done for many a year. If they produce a car without fundamental flaws (such as the wheelbase/tyres/exhaust system debacles) then holding on to 4th is probable and it will be interesting to see how they develop over the course of the season. If they do produce a car with fundamental flaws, as per, they'll spend half of the season correcting those flaws whilst being left in the dust.

The next 2 years are make and break for Merc. If they don't progress beyond 4th before '15 then the plug may well and truly be pulled.

#119 boldhakka

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:30

I don't see how anyone can suggest anything other than 4th and below. They've not got the man-power, the funds and experience that McLaren, Red Bull and Ferrari boast. And at the same time, they've done nothing to suggest that they'll be able to develop a car throughout the course of a season whilst keeping in touch with the leaders, something Lotus/Renault have done for many a year. If they produce a car without fundamental flaws (such as the wheelbase/tyres/exhaust system debacles) then holding on to 4th is probable and it will be interesting to see how they develop over the course of the season. If they do produce a car with fundamental flaws, as per, they'll spend half of the season correcting those flaws whilst being left in the dust.

The next 2 years are make and break for Merc. If they don't progress beyond 4th before '15 then the plug may well and truly be pulled.


They don't have the same funds as the top 3. They'll be closer in 2013 in terms of spending as much as the top 3, but they're still significantly lower in terms of budget. They even spent less than Lotus in 2011.

Edited by boldhakka, 12 January 2013 - 02:30.


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#120 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 12:49

They don't have the same funds as the top 3. They'll be closer in 2013 in terms of spending as much as the top 3, but they're still significantly lower in terms of budget. They even spent less than Lotus in 2011.


What do the words 'fund(s??)', and 'budget' mean to you? What are they used for, and how does that relate to the "top 3"?


#121 boldhakka

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 14:54

What do the words 'fund(s??)', and 'budget' mean to you? What are they used for, and how does that relate to the "top 3"?


Sorry, I was very unclear there. I just mean that even though Merc will be spending more in 2013 compared to 2012, they still won't be spending as much as RBR, Ferrari, and McLaren in 2013.

#122 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 15:07

Sorry, I was very unclear there. I just mean that even though Merc will be spending more in 2013 compared to 2012, they still won't be spending as much as RBR, Ferrari, and McLaren in 2013.


Well, no, you weren't unclear at all. How do you know how much they will spend, and how that relates to those three? You simply don't. What is a budget for you, and what should they be spending on? For instance, if they have a budget of 100 units, and it is increase to 120 units, what are the extra 20 units for?


#123 pinkypants

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:53

Well, no, you weren't unclear at all. How do you know how much they will spend, and how that relates to those three? You simply don't. What is a budget for you, and what should they be spending on? For instance, if they have a budget of 100 units, and it is increase to 120 units, what are the extra 20 units for?



Hmm... do we know what much Red Bull/Ferrari/Mclaren are really spending? I just hope they start matching the big 3 in terms of spending, staff retention and development during the season.

We are getting lots of mixed signals about the potential of this years car - some positive - i.e. Brundle suggesting race wins, Schumi saying there is a good foundation... then bad things i.e. Lauda's involvement, Braun managing expectations. Haug's departure. Bring on testing so at least we will know where Mercedes are compared to everyone else. Of course, without the right infrastructure in place we could be competitive in testing but find ourselves lagging behind at the first race - such is the development race!!

#124 Sakae

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 22:14

I am hoping that everybody knows that budget is not set by Stuttgart in some arbitrary manner, but they are merely approving funds for what is in essence a financial assessment of requirements as set forth by management at Brackley operational facility in conjunction with people like Haug. It is a summary sheet only, whereas detailed list is with every item explained and rationalized during budget review at Brackley.
It is actually largely irrelevant what anyone else is spending, since (it is a subject of speculations anyway), thus a goal is not to spend the same or more, but to reach certain targets. They know how fast front team is running, they have fair idea what it will be in 2013, and budget should reflect cost of resources to reach the front line. If I am not mistaken, the advertising division pays bills, and not too much argument is over necessities, but a few peripheral items.


#125 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 22:17

Hmm... do we know what much Red Bull/Ferrari/Mclaren are really spending? I just hope they start matching the big 3 in terms of spending, staff retention and development during the season.

We are getting lots of mixed signals about the potential of this years car - some positive - i.e. Brundle suggesting race wins, Schumi saying there is a good foundation... then bad things i.e. Lauda's involvement, Braun managing expectations. Haug's departure. Bring on testing so at least we will know where Mercedes are compared to everyone else. Of course, without the right infrastructure in place we could be competitive in testing but find ourselves lagging behind at the first race - such is the development race!!


No we don't, which is exactly my point. We do know that RB has spent around 630 mill in 2012. No one has come close to that. We take that figure out of the equation, because its unreal. Ferrari may spend more this year, because of their windtunnel, and building a new factory, but basically, them, Mc(building a new windtunnel too) and Merc should be on par budget-wise. They have everything that is needed to run the team without any fiscal restraints, they have the staff, they have the best infrastructure, and they have in-house powertrain production, in-house KERS/ERS production. What should they spend on more? The success of Mercedes is not a question of money, or budget size anymore. In-season development is only a question of money if you don't have any, because the team is in debt, or does not have the necessary resources, for instance. So no, I really don't think budget is a problem.


#126 stanga

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 22:45

No we don't, which is exactly my point. We do know that RB has spent around 630 mill in 2012. No one has come close to that. We take that figure out of the equation, because its unreal. Ferrari may spend more this year, because of their windtunnel, and building a new factory, but basically, them, Mc(building a new windtunnel too) and Merc should be on par budget-wise. They have everything that is needed to run the team without any fiscal restraints, they have the staff, they have the best infrastructure, and they have in-house powertrain production, in-house KERS/ERS production. What should they spend on more? The success of Mercedes is not a question of money, or budget size anymore. In-season development is only a question of money if you don't have any, because the team is in debt, or does not have the necessary resources, for instance. So no, I really don't think budget is a problem.


They didn't spend 630 million in 2012. I dug out Red Bull's accounts and proved that rumour to be a case of accounting illiteracy. Someone had added the subsidiary accounts to that of the parent holding company, effectively doubling the expenditure.

#127 Szoelloe

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 22:53

They didn't spend 630 million in 2012. I dug out Red Bull's accounts and proved that rumour to be a case of accounting illiteracy. Someone had added the subsidiary accounts to that of the parent holding company, effectively doubling the expenditure.


I really would not like to dig through articles, but Horner said the figure was correct. But if what you say is a fact, I really do believe you, as I wrote, I find that figure quite unreal. It is irrelevant though.


#128 SunnyENTP

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:28

http://www1.skysport...z-on-February-4



Merc unveils its car on the 4th.

#129 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:47

It is actually largely irrelevant what anyone else is spending, since (it is a subject of speculations anyway), thus a goal is not to spend the same or more, but to reach certain targets. They know how fast front team is running, they have fair idea what it will be in 2013, and budget should reflect cost of resources to reach the front line. If I am not mistaken, the advertising division pays bills, and not too much argument is over necessities, but a few peripheral items.

It all sounds well and good, but that sounds like a road car approach. Sure the E63AMG only needs to be 5% better than the M5 to therefore hopefully convert a lot of buyers.

I would have thought that in racing it's best to try to crush the opposition to start with, because advantages are hard to keep. Look at how poor Red Bull were at the start of the season when their aero wasn't sorted, or how Williams plumeted down the pack from WCC dominance when they lost the vastly superior Honda engines, replaced with 200 hp (?) down Judd units. Best to build the biggest advantage you can, as you are bound to lose it IMO.

#130 Timstr11

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:51

AMuS:
-Rosberg to drive first right after presentation at 13:30.
-100 KM distance allowed on 'filming day'.
-Running will be done on demo tyres.
-Rosberg gets nr 9, Hamilton nr. 10

Edited by Timstr11, 17 January 2013 - 12:51.


#131 aray

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 16:32

Hmm... do we know what much Red Bull/Ferrari/Mclaren are really spending? I just hope they start matching the big 3 in terms of spending, staff retention and development during the season.

We are getting lots of mixed signals about the potential of this years car - some positive - i.e. Brundle suggesting race wins, Schumi saying there is a good foundation... then bad things i.e. Lauda's involvement, Braun managing expectations. Haug's departure. Bring on testing so at least we will know where Mercedes are compared to everyone else. Of course, without the right infrastructure in place we could be competitive in testing but find ourselves lagging behind at the first race - such is the development race!!

both Honda and Toyota were top spenders in their time along with Macca and Ferrari....they produced dud after dud...

before money they need right base and i expect Brawn has been doing that....

#132 Sakae

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 17:55

It all sounds well and good, but that sounds like a road car approach. Sure the E63AMG only needs to be 5% better than the M5 to therefore hopefully convert a lot of buyers.

I would have thought that in racing it's best to try to crush the opposition to start with, because advantages are hard to keep. Look at how poor Red Bull were at the start of the season when their aero wasn't sorted, or how Williams plumeted down the pack from WCC dominance when they lost the vastly superior Honda engines, replaced with 200 hp (?) down Judd units. Best to build the biggest advantage you can, as you are bound to lose it IMO.

Not too much of "crushing" happened in 2012. If I play a hypothetical chief at Brackley, than internal development specs for 2013 will have set of parameters of W03 car sided with the best of them in 2012. Next column will deal with predictive performance for 2013 with adding the margin of error for best of the group, which equals P1. Then add realistic performance margin for the lead, and you have performance targets for W04. Lastly, I will have my engineering staff identify elements which ought to bridge that gap between W03 and W04 with cost of resources in support.

One cannot of course omit in season comparative development rate, which probably McLaren is the best at the moment. Sum it up, add 20% as a contingency fund, and you have your budget that can be explained without pulling numbers out of your body parts. To dream that you do all that, and add extra 200 Mill € just for good measure (just in case) will be probably rejected, and your job might be in jeopardy, me thinks.

Edited by Sakae, 17 January 2013 - 17:56.


#133 SR388

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 18:52

I have a feeling that this car is going to be a real winner.

#134 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 18:55

It all sounds well and good, but that sounds like a road car approach. Sure the E63AMG only needs to be 5% better than the M5 to therefore hopefully convert a lot of buyers.

I would have thought that in racing it's best to try to crush the opposition to start with, because advantages are hard to keep. Look at how poor Red Bull were at the start of the season when their aero wasn't sorted, or how Williams plumeted down the pack from WCC dominance when they lost the vastly superior Honda engines, replaced with 200 hp (?) down Judd units. Best to build the biggest advantage you can, as you are bound to lose it IMO.


No it doesn't in the least. They can spend anything and everything on development or design. What would you like them to spend on exactly? The infrastructure they work with is their own. They pay their staff well, in fact at least as well as anybody on the grid, if not better. In terms of a head count, now they are on a similar level to any of the top teams. In termy of technology, they are at least on par with any of the top teams. They have nothing to spend on anymore only on the everyday running of the team. They have the money to enter the development war at the sharp end of the grid. They also have the technology to do it. If you are implying that last years development meltdown was down to being short of dough, you are wrong. So I ask again, since throwing around words like 'budget', 'spending', and'money' without any knowledge or the slightest idea as to what those exactly mean and how they are used, what exactly would you like them to spend on? How does money exactly affect development, when everything is in-house? Apart from raw materials bought for scale-models, and testing parts to be built, what do you guys exactly think about when speaking about a 'budget'? Taking into account that they do not have to expand anymore, just run the team as effectively as they possibly can?




#135 leojagpreet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 19:01

I hope mercedes will be a good car this year after all the investment from previous years - but I have a feeling they will be fighting with Lotus & Mclaren for 3rd spot.

#136 Owen

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:28

Aye carumba! They got lots of jobs here; :eek:
https://twitter.com/...6755840/photo/1

#137 Szoelloe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:29

Aye carumba! They got lots of jobs here; :eek:
https://twitter.com/...6755840/photo/1


Nice

#138 f1fastestlap

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:45

Aye carumba! They got lots of jobs here; :eek:
https://twitter.com/...6755840/photo/1


Better check here: http://www.mercedes-...ry/recruitment/

#139 jav

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:47

Better check here: http://www.mercedes-...ry/recruitment/


looks like they know AERO is STILL weak. Doesn't bode well for W04.

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#140 Brandz07

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 13:51

looks like they know AERO is STILL weak. Doesn't bode well for W04.


I don't think we can really judge the performance of the new car on the jobs they have on their website.

Edited by Brandz07, 18 January 2013 - 13:51.


#141 KiloWatt

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 14:42

I don't think we can really judge the performance of the new car on the jobs they have on their website.


How dare you be reasonable? Get out! You don't belong here! :lol:

#142 MaxisOne

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 15:18

I gotta say that having so many aero postings open does not inspire confidence.

We will see.

#143 jav

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 15:29

I don't think we can really judge the performance of the new car on the jobs they have on their website.


perhaps not, and I suppose some talented aero staff may have left under the radar. BUT- I certainly think it's reasonable to infer that:

1) The team appears to be looking to strengthen their aero department with a few seemingly key positions (per the job postings).
2) If no one has left, it could be construed that the department has been working at some level that management feels is insufficient... especially given that some of those position postings existed prior to this preseason.
3) Zetsche and Lewis have publically stated that 2014 is when championship fighting form is expected.

Given these inferences, I think it's fair to be concerned about any significant step forward for W04. But you're right- I'll reserve final judgement til about midseason when all hope is lost.

#144 Sakae

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 15:46

I gotta say that having so many aero postings open does not inspire confidence.

We will see.

I concur, it is late.

#145 maxx7

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 16:15

If the team is still looking these workers .. Probably 2013 season will fail

Edited by maxx7, 18 January 2013 - 16:16.


#146 Szoelloe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 16:19

If the team is still looking these workers .. Probably 2013 season will fail


Please do elaborate?


#147 femi

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:09

looks like they know AERO is STILL weak. Doesn't bode well for W04.



This to me looks like an attack on 2014 car not 2013. Mercedes to my mind are not looking to sacrifice W04 in favour of W05. They are obviously not looking for new staff to design and build W04...

Edited by femi, 19 January 2013 - 10:04.


#148 SunnyENTP

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:27

I gotta say that having so many aero postings open does not inspire confidence.

We will see.



Hiring more staff does not inspire confidence? What a strange thing to say.

#149 moorsey

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:35

Sorry if I've missed this somewhere but do we know who is going to be Lewis' engineer?

#150 Szoelloe

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 17:36

Sorry if I've missed this somewhere but do we know who is going to be Lewis' engineer?


no