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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#1851 Kvothe

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 19:28

What does a 60% wind tunnel have to do with anything? Lewis has already made comments about the downforce and what he perceives to be lack of.

What were the technical dead ends that the W01 and W02 chased after?

Also what about the dead end such as tire wear? They never got ahold of the tire wear issue for the entire season last year. I'd wager the W04 has the same problems.

Didn't you notice how they started trying to put focus on the 2014 car?


You asked why the WO4 won't go the same way as the WO3 which was one of the fastest cars at the beginning of last season, and to the relatively informed the 60% tunnel is one of the biggest reasons. Not only because the WO3's in season development was severely hampered by the upgrade of the windtunnel during the middle of the season which took a few months and would have slowed any aerodynamic development to a crawl, but also because the 60% model a much more accurate model and they are now on par with teams such as McLaren and Red Bull in terms of developmental equipment which should help with in-season development.

Of course the W04 still lacks downforce compared to the overall fastest car of last season ( according to Button so does the MP4-28) the 60% wind tunnel isn't a magical fix or bullet to suddenly allow them to catch up straightaway with the already refined cars of the bigger teams, but as shown by Rosberg's comments the car is a massive improvement on last year, and even Lewis with his cautious comments has alluded to them being just behind the bigger teams, the fact that unlike most other teams they set a faster time in Barcelona; testing with a car on hard tyres, not yet at Melbourne spec, than they did during Q3 last year, and with at least 7 laps of fuel in is reason to be positive, even with the general chatter about cold weather, also a 60% scale model it is part of a longer term solution accompanied by many organisational changes and its in the long term that it should really bear fruit.

The dead end was partly related to the interlinked suspension which without knowing the real specifics offhand made it very hard to change the car settings to deal with the narrow operating Pirellis, and partly related to the lack of downforce a cause of which was DDRS (which the car was built around), which didn't allow them to pursue philosophies such as flexible front wings, severely compromised set-up ect and the lack of a workable Coanda exhaust system (delayed by the wind tunnel revamp). Button mentioned last year sometime around Silverstone when the MP4-27 had been struggling with the tyres that the car needed more downforce, because downforce can help mask other problems, and the WO3 just didn't have enough of it, and for a significant amount of time didn't have the available capacity to deal with it..

Of course they are placing some focus on 2014 when the new engine regs will come in, of which Mercedes will be one of the biggest beneficiaries; the rules offer the chance to shakeup the field massively, and if Mercedes want to win anything they would be foolish not to pour resources into a year which offers their best chance of winning anything in the short term. especially when the pecking order looks unlikely to change for 2013, however there has been nothing, and I repeat nothing to suggest they have put the focus on the 2014 car. They have two designs teams something which Ferrari another engine manufacturer also now have, and they have Bob Bell currently evaluating design concepts, but I've seen or read nothing that the focus has already shifted onto 2014, especially when considering the pressure on key figures within the team (including Brawn), and on Mercedes to do well in 2013 it wouldn't make any sense to do so.

As for tyre wear we'll have to wait and see, Rosberg seems convinced that the problems with the tyres is gone, and it seems looking at the laptimes that none of the teams really have a hold on them and that Mercedes isn't destroying them faster than the rest, however for now we'll have to wait and see.

Edit: Atrocious grammar, but whatever

Edited by Kvothe, 24 February 2013 - 19:38.


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#1852 BoschKurve

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 19:37

Of course the W04 still lacks downforce compared to the overall fastest car of last season ( according to Button so does the MP4-28) the 60% wind tunnel isn't a magical fix or bullet to suddenly allow them to catch up straightaway with the already refined cars of the bigger teams, but as shown by Rosberg's comments the car is a massive improvement on last year, and even Lewis with his cautious comments has alluded to them being just behind the bigger teams, the fact that unlike most other teams they set a faster time in Barcelona; testing with a car on hard tyres, not yet at Melbourne spec, than they did during Q3 last year, and with at least 7 laps of fuel in is reason to be positive, even with the general chatter about cold weather, also a 60% scale model it is part of a longer term solution accompanied by many organisational changes and its in the long term that it should really bear fruit.


Here's the thing about testing whether it be Barcelona or Jerez. Until anyone knows what the specifics are of every stint a team (including Mercedes did) times should be given little credence. There's no way of knowing what the ballast loads were being run on any of the cars. We have no idea who was sandbagging.

The real thing that MGP needs to address with the W04 is how to generate efficient drag over the car. They spend a lot of time studying Red Bull without any real understanding that the efficiency greatly varies from car to car; what makes one car efficient is not necessarily going to work for another. If the car has less downforce than everyone else, they should be good at Monza and Spa along with Monaco.

#1853 dans79

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 19:54

The real thing that MGP needs to address with the W04 is how to generate efficient drag over the car.


Drag? Really......................

#1854 BernieEc

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 19:56

Drag? Really......................


it must have been a typo. later on in his sentence he does make a reference to downforce. Must have been an error

#1855 Juggles

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:15

it must have been a typo. later on in his sentence he does make a reference to downforce. Must have been an error


I think he just means making the drag that must necessarily exist as efficient as possible. So emphasis on "efficient" rather than "drag."

#1856 BigCHrome

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:33

I think he just has no idea what he's talking about. They spend a lot of time studying Red Bull without any understanding any basic engineering concepts? :rolleyes:

Edited by BigCHrome, 25 February 2013 - 01:33.


#1857 BernieEc

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:20

Anyone make snse of what Lauda is saying here in this interview

http://www.gptoday.c...rari_and_Lotus/



#1858 Markn93

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:46

To be fair to him I can see how you would think that after the last test, long runs and quickest times set on hard/medium tyres with fuel to spare, but I don't think any fans are that confident just yet, this is the first year I've wanted Merc to be quick and Im not. Do hope he's correct though. What a season we'd be in for.

#1859 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:12

Anyone make snse of what Lauda is saying here in this interview

http://www.gptoday.c...rari_and_Lotus/


He says Merc is in the mix with the group directly behing RB, whom he thinks is clearly ahead anybody else, with little to separate the teams in this group. Also he thinks the named group(Mc,Lotus,Ferrari,Merc) is not far from RB either. He seems to imply Merc has more room for developing the W04 than most of the front runners. He also thinks LH has been positively surprised by the potential in the team for this season as opposed to what he originally expected. I'd say he is being quite rational, I think he himself has been positively surprised by what he came to find this season.

Also, I think there is nothing new anymore in what he is saying, it seems to be the momentary situation, as we ourselves see it. No outright wins but we could be in the mix.


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#1860 femi

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:25

Anyone make snse of what Lauda is saying here in this interview

http://www.gptoday.c...rari_and_Lotus/


The W04 hit the ground running as a good car with great development potential. He is more optimistic than LH. I personally think LH choice of words were a bit harsh, he could have made the same point less demoralizingly. Niki sounds a bit confused, merc is there and then this

“I believe Lewis saw the challenge to win with Mercedes as great, but probably less now than what he (first) imagined”.

. I think the crux of his message is Merc is closer than LH thinks. Whether this is true or not, one thing is clear; Merc are far happy with this car than the W03. One can pick up their sense of relief that W04 is not a bad car at all. Now let's see how fast they can catch up.

I think they will be there or thereabout towards the middle of the season if they really commit to it

#1861 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:32

The W04 hit the ground running as a good car with great development potential. He is more optimistic than LH. I personally think LH choice of words were a bit harsh, he could have made the same point less demoralizingly. Niki sounds a bit confused, merc is there and then this . I think the crux of his message is Merc is closer than LH thinks. Whether this is true or not, one thing is clear; Merc are far happy with this car than the W03. One can pick up their sense of relief that W04 is not a bad car at all. Now let's see how fast they can catch up.

I think they will be there or thereabout towards the middle of the season if they really commit to it

It's kind of what we know, margins will be small. Hamiltons clearly been trying to dampen expectations, should be remembered that the car could still be fifth fastest so finishing 9 or 10.

#1862 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:39

It's kind of what we know, margins will be small. Hamiltons clearly been trying to dampen expectations, should be remembered that the car could still be fifth fastest so finishing 9 or 10.


+1


#1863 Shiroo

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:54

according to Gutierez Mercedes is 5th behind RBR, Lotus, McLaren and Ferrari
http://www.yallaf1.c...icts-gutierrez/

#1864 BigCHrome

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:56

Yes, I don't what Hamilton is thinking, slagging off the car. I don't think all the people back at the factory, who've worked so hard all winter, would've loved to hear him say that the car is nowhere in comparison to his old car and all their rivals this year.

#1865 Clatter

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:59

Yes, I don't what Hamilton is thinking, slagging off the car. I don't think all the people back at the factory, who've worked so hard all winter, would've loved to hear him say that the car is nowhere in comparison to his old car and all their rivals this year.


If they guys back at the factory are too sensitive to hear a reality check then they are in the wrong job.

#1866 Timstr11

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:02

according to Gutierez Mercedes is 5th behind RBR, Lotus, McLaren and Ferrari
http://www.yallaf1.c...icts-gutierrez/

Guitierez only commented on RBR and Lotus.

#1867 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:13

Yes, I don't what Hamilton is thinking, slagging off the car. I don't think all the people back at the factory, who've worked so hard all winter, would've loved to hear him say that the car is nowhere in comparison to his old car and all their rivals this year.


He has not slagged the car, and he has not really made any comparisons.


#1868 superdelphinus

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:14

Because it's got low downforce it will be good at monaco??

wow

#1869 CHIUNDA

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:30

Dr Z in Hamilton's corner cautioning Mercedes not to get ahead of themselves

http://www.motorspor...rcedes-in-2013/


#1870 karlth

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:33

according to Gutierez Mercedes is 5th behind RBR, Lotus, McLaren and Ferrari
http://www.yallaf1.c...icts-gutierrez/


Reality check. :well:

#1871 jstrains

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:45

Sorry but Mr. Lauda is saying things like he wants them to be and changes it x times a day...

#1872 Timstr11

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:10

According to Motorsport-Magazin, Lauda told Brazilian media that Mercedes is on a similar level with Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus.
Redbull is ahead of all but not far away.
(Original Brazilian news item)

Edited by Timstr11, 25 February 2013 - 10:17.


#1873 femi

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:39

Dr Z in Hamilton's corner cautioning Mercedes not to get ahead of themselves

http://www.motorspor...rcedes-in-2013/


LH wasn't slagging the car in those quotes but that is not how his statements were always presented. As far as I am concerned, I will trust LH judgement over anyone else's. If he says the car is not there yet, then so it is. LH does not mess about when giving opinion about his car. He always called a spade a spade. That doesn't mean he will not do his best to drive round the issues where possible.

#1874 BernieEc

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:47

if the reports suggests Merc is there or thereabouts, then thats good enough for me. it means 2013 might not be so terrible after all. I really do trust and believe in the driver pairing of Nico and Lewis. I believe Nico hasn't really gotten the credit he really deserves.

Anyway after the 2nd barcelona test when all teams have strapped on their turbo boosters, maybe a clearer pic will emerge

#1875 keiichi

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:12

I think Lewis might just be managing the expectations around him. Besides, with the top 5 teams appearing to be so close none is really saying they have a great car.

Everybody is being so cautious in what they say, that it would be very stupid of Lewis to come and say they have a brilliant car, even if it would feel that way.

Besides, as it was already said here, his term of comparison is the MP4-27, generally regarded as the fastest car of 2012.

Edited by keiichi, 25 February 2013 - 11:12.


#1876 V3TT3L

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 13:57

http://www.guardian....edes-f1-mclaren

#1877 Szoelloe

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 14:07

http://www.guardian....edes-f1-mclaren



do read back, and there is a thread for it

#1878 MercPower

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 14:15

Because it's got low downforce it will be good at monaco??

wow


Think you have to look at the traction the Merc has or had last year. Michael put it on pole and Nico was third.

#1879 swiniodzik

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 16:07

What were the technical dead ends that the W01 and W02 chased after?


It's rather well documented that with the W01 they miscalculated the weight distribution and had to deal with incorrectly loaded tyres at both ends. Medicaments like moving the front suspension forward and lengthening the wheelbase minimized the defect but didn't eliminate it. With the W02, they went for a short wheelbase trying to minimize the airflow detaching effect under the floor which a non-double, less powerful diffuser made stronger, only to see the blowing exhaust solving that problem which left them with no aero advantages under the floor and with compromises over it.

The DDRS on the W03 didn't only have them running sub-optimal from the downforce point of view front wing profiles, there were also reports about airflow re-attaching problems causing excessive under-steer on corner entry so it was apparently one big mess. What Mercedes needs is getting the basics right as it's always been the same story of something that they thought would be their performance trump card only turning out to be a poison pill.

I agree it's embarrassing to have such an error rate but also think that having so many senior technicians who are former technical directors is an advantage that could work in their favour, i.a. when it comes to starting the year with a healthy base.

Edited by swiniodzik, 25 February 2013 - 16:10.


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#1880 Owen

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 16:31

Downplaying expectations going on here. Oldest trick in the book.
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/101587.html

#1881 toxicfusion

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 16:34

Downplaying expectations going on here. Oldest trick in the book.
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/101587.html



Or being realistic? :lol:


There is no way to know for sure until the first race.

#1882 Owen

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 16:42

Or being realistic? :lol:


There is no way to know for sure until the first race.

Agreed. At least this way you don't look a complete c0ck!

#1883 Tauhid

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 16:45

Downplaying expectations going on here. Oldest trick in the book.
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/101587.html


always works best at least in the media world to be the surprise of the year. However, I am pretty sure the W04 is not as good as the top 4 constructors' cars. You have to think about the Saubers and Force Indias too. I sense a great battle in the middle pack of the championship with Mercedes fighting Ferrari and Renault for 3rd, 4th and 5th place. McLaren and the Red Bull have the upper hand though.

#1884 windtravels

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 18:31

We? This is the Mercedes thread.

Newey left Mclaren as he wasn't given the amount of freedom he wanted; it was nothing to do with the egos about. It's also one of the reasons he's thriving at Red Bull.

I can only imagine the information Lowe will bring with him, regarding Mclarens cars, and operations.


I think that is key.

#1885 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 18:39

I think some people assume to know far too much about the merits of these guys. Without being behind the scenes, its really hard to say how important or great each person's input is. We can associate people with good cars designed during their time there, but there's a whole army of people that pull together in the design and manufacturing of a car. Its very hard to pinpoint one person and say, "Yea, him, he's the guy who did it!"

#1886 Hairy

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 18:41

I think some people assume to know far too much about the merits of these guys. Without being behind the scenes, its really hard to say how important or great each person's input is. We can associate people with good cars designed during their time there, but there's a whole army of people that pull together in the design and manufacturing of a car. Its very hard to pinpoint one person and say, "Yea, him, he's the guy who did it!"


Well, being flippant, I think if you look at RBR, you'd find i very hard to pinpoint anyone else and say they helped ;)

#1887 Mc_Silver

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 20:29

I think some people assume to know far too much about the merits of these guys. Without being behind the scenes, its really hard to say how important or great each person's input is. We can associate people with good cars designed during their time there, but there's a whole army of people that pull together in the design and manufacturing of a car. Its very hard to pinpoint one person and say, "Yea, him, he's the guy who did it!"


This.

#1888 MightyMoose

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 20:41

Please remain on-topic, discussion about how McLaren may shape up in 2014, or how Adrian Newey designs cars is most definitely not part of this topic.

Thanks

#1889 Treads

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 20:49

I think some people assume to know far too much about the merits of these guys. Without being behind the scenes, its really hard to say how important or great each person's input is. We can associate people with good cars designed during their time there, but there's a whole army of people that pull together in the design and manufacturing of a car. Its very hard to pinpoint one person and say, "Yea, him, he's the guy who did it!"

+1

#1890 Markn93

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:13

Lewis talking about expectations from 3:50 - I'm no expert but his body language is rather odd, as is the short sharp nature of his answers when responding to Ted's questions.

Wouldn't it be nice if he were lying? :p

#1891 ViMaMo

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:01

Experience counts. Lowe may not be generating ideas but he will know what idea would work and what would fail, that's why he is the Director isn't he?

#1892 William Hunt

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:18

On Wikipedia Brendon Hartley and Anthony Davidson are confirmed as official test drivers? Is this correct, especially concerning Davidson? The last thing I heard Daniel Juncadella was being considered as 3rd driver for Mercedes F1 and then there still is Sam Bird.

#1893 chumma

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:42

I think that is key.

...James Key?

#1894 SR388

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:45

On Wikipedia Brendon Hartley and Anthony Davidson are confirmed as official test drivers? Is this correct, especially concerning Davidson? The last thing I heard Daniel Juncadella was being considered as 3rd driver for Mercedes F1 and then there still is Sam Bird.


I hope Davidson isn't a test driver. Davidson is the worst.

http://www.corvetteb...as-their-fault/

Edited by SR388, 26 February 2013 - 03:46.


#1895 chumma

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:56

I hope Davidson isn't a test driver. Davidson is the worst.

http://www.corvetteb...as-their-fault/

Not sure is srs? What did he do wrong? He went up the inside, made no contact, was in an LMP1 and the goose in the Corvette was trying to defend and fell off the track? Sounds to me like the yanks are a bit upset about their car being driven by a half whit and wanted to take the heat off their own drivers silly manoeuvre.

Edited by chumma, 26 February 2013 - 03:57.


#1896 SR388

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:07

Not sure is srs? What did he do wrong? He went up the inside, made no contact, was in an LMP1 and the goose in the Corvette was trying to defend and fell off the track? Sounds to me like the yanks are a bit upset about their car being driven by a half whit and wanted to take the heat off their own drivers silly manoeuvre.



This isn't the place to discuss this.

I am looking forward to this week's test. I saw where Pirelli was covering their butts saying the conditions in Barca were unusual.


Nicky says our rear tire issues are solved!! :clap:

#1897 CHIUNDA

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:24

This isn't the place to discuss this.

I am looking forward to this week's test. I saw where Pirelli was covering their butts saying the conditions in Barca were unusual.


Nicky says our rear tire issues are solved!!
:clap:


Cannot be so definitive on the rear tire issues having been solved with CdC being so cold during the tests

Edited by CHIUNDA, 26 February 2013 - 04:26.


#1898 vlado

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 04:35

I think Hamilton will get a win this year for sure.. Can't wait for the season to start! He is very entertaining to watch... Good thing him and Kimi are around otherwise I feel like it would be kind of boring on the race track.

Its nice to hear that Lowe is joining the team.. Challenging for the championship next year for sho :)

#1899 BigCHrome

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:04

Considering that race pace is completely predicated around tire wear right now, we will only know how it is when the grid settles down after a few races.

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#1900 jjcale

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:11

I hope Davidson isn't a test driver. Davidson is the worst.

http://www.corvetteb...as-their-fault/


I see Ant as part of the failure from the past 3 years ... and I also would not mind seeing him replaced