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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#2151 BigCHrome

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 18:18

Davidson (the Merc development driver) has been saying on the F1 Show, that although everyone is positive and working very hard back at HQ in Brackley, he mentioned that the consensus at Merc is that they won't be starting as competitively as they did in 2012.


Seems like everyone who is "in the know" is saying that the car is pretty bad. I guess we shouldn't get our hopes up. Getting to Q3 is probably the limit of what they can do.

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#2152 SR388

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 18:20

Seems like everyone who is "in the know" is saying that the car is pretty bad. I guess we shouldn't get our hopes up. Getting to Q3 is probably the limit of what they can do.



Sarcasm? I can see the truth in what you are saying. But Hamilton was pretty positive.

#2153 skid solo

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 18:20

100mph airflow in a straight line will have a different pressure level than 100mph round a corner on whatever they're using to activate the 'switch'. The pressure effect of placing the 'pitot-tube' in-line with the air flow compared to even a small angle is pretty significant, so I suspect they will tune the device to activate at different air-flows for each track and have some mechanism to switch off when the pressure drops when going around a corner. I'll be fascinated to find out how they're going to do it though, especially how they switch it off at the end of a straight so the air can reattach to get the downforce back for the corner.


I also wonder what effect track undulation will have, for example the bottom of Eau rouge as opposed to the top crest?

#2154 BigCHrome

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 18:22

Sarcasm? I can see the truth in what you are saying. But Hamilton was pretty positive.


Hamilton and Davidson have both confirmed that they won't be anywhere near the top already. Rosberg is the only one who seems to not know whats going on.

#2155 Alx09

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 18:35

And another interview - http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p015rg3p


Thanks for sharing :up:


#2156 BillBald

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 18:40

100mph airflow in a straight line will have a different pressure level than 100mph round a corner on whatever they're using to activate the 'switch'. The pressure effect of placing the 'pitot-tube' in-line with the air flow compared to even a small angle is pretty significant, so I suspect they will tune the device to activate at different air-flows for each track and have some mechanism to switch off when the pressure drops when going around a corner. I'll be fascinated to find out how they're going to do it though, especially how they switch it off at the end of a straight so the air can reattach to get the downforce back for the corner.


Well of course you need the downforce back before you get to the corner, you need it for braking.

I really can't see how this device is going to work, for any of the teams which are trying it.

If level of downforce changes, and it's out of the driver's control, I think lots of changes of underwear will be needed.



#2157 Owen

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 18:59

This ought to please the Lewis fans:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21637548


#2158 Timstr11

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 19:24

This ought to please the Lewis fans:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21637548

Jenson bigging up Mercedes (while playing down Mclaren).
Not a genuine observation in my opinion.

#2159 jrg19

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:00

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

•Rosberg running with helmet spoiler
•New sticker position on side-pod
•Lower exhaust exit perhaps?

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#2160 Timstr11

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:37

Nice to do these comparisons.
Photo taken at the same location with the same magnitude.

Look at the differnce between the loaded Mercedes and loaded RedBull front wing.
Redbull is still considerably ahead in technology on how to make the front wing run lower under load.
These things give them a nice chunk of performance.

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#2161 rhukkas

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:43

Nice to do these comparisons.
Photo taken at the same location with the same magnitude.

Look at the differnce between the loaded Mercedes and loaded RedBull front wing.
Redbull is still considerably ahead in technology on how to make the front wing run lower under load.
These things give them a nice chunk of performance.

http://www.motorspor...ton/0475192.jpg
http://www.motorspor...ton/0475195.jpg


1. The RedBull is running more rake
2. The RedBull has its DRS wide open so potentially is running at a higher speed meaning more downforce load (could be sketchy science there though)
3. And yes, RedBull may have a performance and design advantage in this area.

Edited by rhukkas, 01 March 2013 - 20:44.


#2162 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:43

^^Does the DRS flap being open make any difference?

edit: pipped

Edited by Szoelloe, 01 March 2013 - 20:44.


#2163 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:46

Rake could be different with the DRS in use too. Actually, the W04 seemed to run similar rake to the RB8.

#2164 bonjon1979a

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 20:55

Jenson bigging up Mercedes (while playing down Mclaren).
Not a genuine observation in my opinion.

Yeah, Mclaren pr machine in full spin, big merc up as much as possible so people don't buy in to lh's lowering of expectations. They want him to look like he's failed by leaving them, it's no surprise that since paddy lowe leaving has been announced jenson has said twice that merc are right at the front. No one else is, only Mclaren, who couldn't possibly have an agenda, could they?

#2165 Mc_Silver

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:15

Yeah, Mclaren pr machine in full spin, big merc up as much as possible so people don't buy in to lh's lowering of expectations. They want him to look like he's failed by leaving them, it's no surprise that since paddy lowe leaving has been announced jenson has said twice that merc are right at the front. No one else is, only Mclaren, who couldn't possibly have an agenda, could they?


Hamilton just insisted he is deliberately lowering the expectations, you cannot blame Jenson here honestly. They have also looked pretty strong throughout the testing and Lewis said he is very happy and they are moving forwards. Remind you that Mercedes already started last season with a pretty strong car so if we assume they have much better car compared to last year it is safe to say Mercedes will be competitive at the start of the season.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 01 March 2013 - 21:15.


#2166 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:16

Yeah, Mclaren pr machine in full spin, big merc up as much as possible so people don't buy in to lh's lowering of expectations. They want him to look like he's failed by leaving them, it's no surprise that since paddy lowe leaving has been announced jenson has said twice that merc are right at the front. No one else is, only Mclaren, who couldn't possibly have an agenda, could they?


Grosjean:

"In the wet, Mercedes is impressive; it was going very, very quick. Then in the dry, McLaren is quick, Ferrari we don't know today, but Red Bull will be quick, Mercedes should be alright - it's going to be tight. "

http://en.espnf1.com...h.YdrWoSt5.dpuf

Nobody knows the actual pecking order, obviously. ATM though, or so far - if you wish - it really seems that the W04 is at the least not a dog. Considering that, if they are not far off the fastest car - whichever that may be -, it will come down to the rate of development they can maintain. Much depends on tomorrow and Sunday. I am really curious.


#2167 BigCHrome

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:22

Open DRS -> less load at the rear, front moves closer to the ground.

About the soft tires, I guess they believe in just raking up mileage rather than working on a specific setup. They are obviously not shredding them any more than the other teams.

#2168 bonjon1979a

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:30

Hamilton just insisted he is deliberately lowering the expectations, you cannot blame Jenson here honestly. They have also looked pretty strong throughout the testing and Lewis said he is very happy and they are moving forwards. Remind you that Mercedes already started last season with a pretty strong car so if we assume they have much better car compared to last year it is safe to say Mercedes will be competitive at the start of the season.


I don't blame jenson at all, just part of the game but I think it's telling that it's coming out of mac now. Lh has definitely beng doing the opposite, playing down expectations but mclarwn are definitely trying to counter that. Red bull are at the front, lotus and mac are in the mix, Ferrari and merc will be somewhere just behind

#2169 femi

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:57

Grosjean:

"In the wet, Mercedes is impressive; it was going very, very quick. Then in the dry, McLaren is quick, Ferrari we don't know today, but Red Bull will be quick, Mercedes should be alright - it's going to be tight. "

http://en.espnf1.com...h.YdrWoSt5.dpuf

Nobody knows the actual pecking order, obviously. ATM though, or so far - if you wish - it really seems that the W04 is at the least not a dog. Considering that, if they are not far off the fastest car - whichever that may be -, it will come down to the rate of development they can maintain. Much depends on tomorrow and Sunday. I am really curious.

What could make a f1 car quick when wet and less quick on a dry track ?

#2170 Obi Offiah

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:58

What could make a f1 car quick when wet and less quick on a dry track ?

Tyre temp management?

#2171 femi

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:02

Tyre temp management?

thx, what about DF?

#2172 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:03

What could make a f1 car quick when wet and less quick on a dry track ?


I do think that a car being stable and fast in wet conditions is a good indication of overall performance. As to being slower in the dry, NR has all but said they were running 'filled to the brim' and then quickly added "or nearly". Lap times have strongly indicated that too.


#2173 Brandz07

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:05

Seems like the car has very good mechanical grip. :up:

#2174 Obi Offiah

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:08

thx, what about DF?

More downforce definitely helps, but I believe in the case of Mercedes it may be strength from the mechanical side of the package. Lewis when interviewed has mentioned that while the McLaren MP4-27 had more downforce than his W04, there are area in which the Mercedes is better. I personally believe he was referring to the mechanical dynamics of the car.

#2175 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:10

Seems like the car has very good mechanical grip. :up:


I think the W03 had very good mech grip, but it lacked in the DF department. It was not too stellar in the rain. Basically, as I know, nowadays, if you lack DF you are shot in the wet.


edit:Giving it some thought, there is a difference, I think, between running extreme wets in heavy rain, extreme wets on a wet track, and intermediates in wet/damp conditions. Extremes in rain, yes, I would say mech grip rules.

Edited by Szoelloe, 01 March 2013 - 22:18.


#2176 BigCHrome

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:14

Red Bull haven't really been good in the rain the past couple of seasons. I think the most important thing is keeping the tires in the working range i.e. being hard on them.

#2177 inca_roads

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:20

Jenson bigging up Mercedes (while playing down Mclaren).
Not a genuine observation in my opinion.


The fact that he's quoted saying he doesn't know who's quick and then in the same paragraph says Mercedes have been, erm, quick, is a bit odd.

#2178 Mc_Silver

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:22

Seems like the car has very good mechanical grip. :up:


I believe that's the area Lewis insisted where Mercedes is better than McLaren. Schumi's pole in Monaco was the evidence of Mercedes's good mechanical grip and traction.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 01 March 2013 - 22:25.


#2179 BernieEc

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:23

What could make a f1 car quick when wet and less quick on a dry track ?

mechanical grip and switching on the inters and wets quick

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#2180 femi

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:26

Red Bull haven't really been good in the rain the past couple of seasons. I think the most important thing is keeping the tires in the working range i.e. being hard on them.


Thanks to everyone that indulged the question by answering. @BigCHrome, I was afraid somebody will make that point which brings back my concern that they have not worked on running tests on the softer compounds. I know there has been some reasonable reasons put forward by posters in this forum to justify Merc not doing these, including NR assertion that this is no longer an issue. The fact remains Merc seems isolated in holding this stance.

I am just wondering if they are able to get the tyres up to good working temp when wet at a rate that seems above "everyone" else, wouldn't that result in the car overheating the tyres when dry and no rain water to provide cooling?

Edited by femi, 01 March 2013 - 22:30.


#2181 Timstr11

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:37

Hembrey himself said the soft is not suitable for Barcelona. Why are people expecting Mercedes to run the soft there? It will serve no purpose.

#2182 Szoelloe

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:39

Thanks to everyone that indulged the question by answering. @BigCHrome, I was afraid somebody will make that point which brings back my concern that they have not worked on running tests on the softer compounds. I know there has been some reasonable reasons put forward by posters in this forum to justify Merc not doing these, including NR assertion that this is no longer an issue. The fact remains Merc seems isolated in holding this stance.

I am just wondering if they are able to get the tyres up to good working temp when wet at a rate that seems above "everyone" else, wouldn't that result in the car overheating the tyres when dry and no rain water to provide cooling?


Maybe, if the car has a relatively small set-up window. They have said that is not the case. Costa has worked on that suspension for a year, allegedly, exactly to make it highly adaptable. So actually, no, I don't think so.

#2183 BernieEc

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:39

http://i.imgur.com/G6t9yhw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EL7pXZt.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...r-bonus/041.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MH78IO6.jpg
http://motorsport.ne...r-bonus/095.jpg

courtesy of f1 technical

Edited by BernieEc, 01 March 2013 - 22:39.


#2184 femi

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:49

Hembrey himself said the soft is not suitable for Barcelona. Why are people expecting Mercedes to run the soft there? It will serve no purpose.



Actually, I really hoping you guys are right...

#2185 dans79

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:56

Actually, I really hoping you guys are right...



The only reason to run it, it to try and put in the fastest time possible. And whith it being so cold, I bet they would get 4 laps out of a set before they where useless.

#2186 BigCHrome

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 22:59

Can you show on a pic what you mean? Can't see a difference myself.


New: http://img4.auto-mot...39a1-664743.jpg

Old: http://www.motorspor...ton/0473444.jpg

#2187 BernieEc

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:01

The only reason to run it, it to try and put in the fastest time possible. And whith it being so cold, I bet they would get 4 laps out of a set before they where useless.


They could simulate long runs on it. Can they not?

#2188 BernieEc

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:03

New: http://img4.auto-mot...39a1-664743.jpg

Old: http://www.motorspor...ton/0473444.jpg


Only difference I can see is the "Petronas logo" I think they've put new stickers on or resized it somewhat

#2189 jrg19

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 23:13

Possible change in the afternoons side pod/exhaust when the Petronas has been enlarged and moved down.

http://i.imgur.com/EL7pXZt.jpg
http://www.motorspor...ton/0475202.jpg

#2190 Juan Kerr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:06

Seems like the car has very good mechanical grip. :up:

And traction probably hence why I think both Rosberg and Hamilton will be near or possibly on the front row in Oz, the other tracks following I'm not so sure.

#2191 syolase

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:14

Good mechanical grip is a blessing, lot of Lewis' best tracks require good mech. grip, such as monaco, montreal, singapore, abu dhabi, etc... Hopefully we can get good results at these tracks!

#2192 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 00:45

Good mechanical grip is a blessing, lot of Lewis' best tracks require good mech. grip, such as monaco, montreal, singapore, abu dhabi, etc... Hopefully we can get good results at these tracks!

McLaren cars always let him down in Monaco bar 07 and 08 (he let himself down in 09). Crazy to think he's only won Monaco once.

Edited by TomNokoe, 02 March 2013 - 00:46.


#2193 Juan Kerr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:52

McLaren cars always let him down in Monaco bar 07 and 08 (he let himself down in 09). Crazy to think he's only won Monaco once.

Hamilton can win anywhere like all the great drivers, Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher etc. etc.

#2194 bauss

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:04

I do think that a car being stable and fast in wet conditions is a good indication of overall performance. As to being slower in the dry, NR has all but said they were running 'filled to the brim' and then quickly added "or nearly". Lap times have strongly indicated that too.

Link pls to where he said this

#2195 femi

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:55

LH actually tested the slicks on Thursday

#2196 Szoelloe

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:21

Link pls to where he said this


Unfortunately I can't, it was the live interview on Sky yesterday after the test. But it happened. :)

#2197 windtravels

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:48

Advisable to stay calm despite that impressive time.

#2198 F1ultimate

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:53

Advisable to stay calm despite that impressive time.


Nonetheless great to see that the car can go fast. I would love to see the times of the laps after that lightning one.

#2199 molpid

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:54

17 1:27.921 [outlap]
18 1:21.534 -6.387
19 1:30.848 +9.314
20 1:24.301 -6.547
21 1:26.650 +2.349
22 1:27.482 +0.832

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#2200 BernieEc

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:58

I think it was on softs