Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 24 votes

Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
3997 replies to this topic

#2501 Xeriks

Xeriks
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: February 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:10

1:20.130, I am dizzy.

Looking good!

Advertisement

#2502 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:11

i just farted when I saw that 1.20.1....I couldn't help it. Just popped out...sorry guys

#2503 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,993 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:16

i just farted when I saw that 1.20.1....I couldn't help it. Just popped out...sorry guys


smells like roses


:lol:


#2504 george1981

george1981
  • Member

  • 902 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:27

That's where I got it from. I'm not talking about Wolff or Lauda, I'm talking about the investors from Stuttgart that are maybe starting to lose patience after 3 years of little success.

Steffen Vogels ‏@MercedesAMGSpy
No news about new updates, but a Mercedes employee told that there is a lot going on ''under the skin'' #F1 #F1W04


This is interesting.


Any idea what is going on under the skin? New/changed suspension maybe, even though that would probably be spotted by track observers.

#2505 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,768 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:28

Check your logic...


I assume that is your polite way of asking for explanation.

He needed to have 7 lap worth of fuel to do those times. It is logical to assume - I reckon - that Merc won't leave it that tight so the car would actually have more that 7 lap of fuel in it. I just rounded it up to 10.

#2506 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,768 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:31

i just farted when I saw that 1.20.1....I couldn't help it. Just popped out...sorry guys


It will be interesting knowing the number of laps in the stint.

#2507 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:31

If you include the out and in laps, he had at least 7 laps of fuel. I reckon he had at least 10 laps of fuel on board which is roughly 25Kg fuel



I assume that is your polite way of asking for explanation.

He needed to have 7 lap worth of fuel to do those times. It is logical to assume - I reckon - that Merc won't leave it that tight so the car would actually have more that 7 lap of fuel in it. I just rounded it up to 10.


Nope, your logic is wrong. You cannot use the out lap as that fuel is burnt off before the fast lap... :rolleyes:

#2508 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:34

pls lets not fight over crumbs and just be happy Merc is there or thereabouts

Edited by BernieEc, 03 March 2013 - 11:34.


#2509 molpid

molpid
  • Member

  • 317 posts
  • Joined: February 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:39

back

#2510 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 20,294 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:39

Nope, your logic is wrong. You cannot use the out lap as that fuel is burnt off before the fast lap... :rolleyes:


Oh ffs, this is all guesswork and it doesn't matter one iota if it was really nine or ten laps worth of fuel.
But, when talking about fuel loads, you always talk about the total load when the car leaves the pits, no-one deducts the fuel used to get round the out-lap.

#2511 paipa

paipa
  • Member

  • 401 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:56

Oh ffs, this is all guesswork and it doesn't matter one iota if it was really nine or ten laps worth of fuel.
But, when talking about fuel loads, you always talk about the total load when the car leaves the pits, no-one deducts the fuel used to get round the out-lap.

Of course everyone deducts the in- and out-lap fuel. Do you mentally correct actual Q3 laptimes for the in- and out-lap fuel? Do you go like "HOLY SHIT he even had in- and out-lap fuel on board when he left the pits"? They are needed to do a timed lap and they are the same for everyone in any timed session on a circuit. What's next, will you deduct sweat evaporating from the driver over a longer stint? :)

#2512 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 20,294 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:57

Yes.

#2513 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:59

Of course everyone deducts the in- and out-lap fuel. Do you mentally correct actual Q3 laptimes for the in- and out-lap fuel? Do you go like "HOLY SHIT he even had in- and out-lap fuel on board when he left the pits"? They are needed to do a timed lap and they are the same for everyone in any timed session on a circuit. What's next, will you deduct sweat evaporating from the driver over a longer stint? :)


I think he was agreeing with you...

And I stand corrected! This is the problem with Physicists :(

Edited by amppatel, 03 March 2013 - 11:59.


#2514 micktosin

micktosin
  • Member

  • 824 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:06

Posted Image

Posted Image

Quite a lot of Rake on that car :eek:

#2515 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 9,118 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:31

Merc do more tests with aero rigs these days. You can notice there is a different wind blowing through the aero department.

Posted Image

#2516 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,768 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:41

Merc do more tests with aero rigs these days. You can notice there is a different wind blowing through the aero department.

Posted Image



Could it be that is because they are able to make proper use of the data collected since they for the first season do have an adequate simulator? One thing for sure, they have thrown down their gauntlet into the development race.

#2517 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,993 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:48

Could it be that is because they are able to make proper use of the data collected since they for the first season do have an adequate simulator? One thing for sure, they have thrown down their gauntlet into the development race.


The sim was up and running last winter. It has more to do with the upgraded wind tunnel, and as Timstr said, Mike Elliot & Co seem to work on a different level. If they are seriously committed to a high development rate, they need precise data, correlation, and the high tech measurement methods to ensure that.


#2518 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 9,118 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:48

Could it be that is because they are able to make proper use of the data collected since they for the first season do have an adequate simulator? One thing for sure, they have thrown down their gauntlet into the development race.

I think this is just current thinking in what you need to do to have windtunnel-track correlation. Obviously things were done differently there in the past (maybe only when they were doing full size testing in the tunnel), but clearly their methods have started changing since they fired Loic Bigois and hired Geoff Willis who's now responsible for simulation (windtunnel/cfd/sim).

#2519 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:49

Quite a lot of Rake on that car :eek:

What is the hole for below the airbox? (Just above nico's helmet) Is this for the fluid switch? Maybe explains how it won't be active in high speed corners as the drivers head will be pushed to either side by the g-force, And maybe in a straight line the helmet acts as some sort of coanda effect to feed the switch.
I'm no way clever enough to understand the technical side of the fluid switch, just throwing it out there for discussion - Sorry if it has been discussed i haven't had time to go through all the pages and just noticed it.

Advertisement

#2520 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:52

What is the hole for below the airbox? (Just above nico's helmet) Is this for the fluid switch? Maybe explains how it won't be active in high speed corners as the drivers head will be pushed to either side by the g-force, And maybe in a straight line the helmet acts as some sort of coanda effect to feed the switch.
I'm no way clever enough to understand the technical side of the fluid switch, just throwing it out there for discussion - Sorry if it has been discussed i haven't had time to go through all the pages and just noticed it.


Interesting, Would most likely be deemed illegal.

I also remember them adding something to NR's helmet:

http://img2.auto-mot...20e2-665387.jpg

Edited by amppatel, 03 March 2013 - 12:55.


#2521 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:55

Interesting, Would most likely be deemed illegal.

Maybe, But i would say its "passive" However i think your correct in that teams will want it to be looked at for validation / clarification of the regs.

#2522 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,768 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:56

The sim was up and running last winter. It has more to do with the upgraded wind tunnel, and as Timstr said, Mike Elliot & Co seem to work on a different level. If they are seriously committed to a high development rate, they need precise data, correlation, and the high tech measurement methods to ensure that.



Thx man, I meant wind tunnel as well.

#2523 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:58

Maybe i am right, in which case its very good idea. Although its not activated by head movement rather de activated by head movement hmmm, very clever view of the rules (like RBR seem to see them)

#2524 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,768 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:59

I think this is just current thinking in what you need to do to have windtunnel-track correlation. Obviously things were done differently there in the past (maybe only when they were doing full size testing in the tunnel), but clearly their methods have started changing since they fired Loic Bigois and hired Geoff Willis who's now responsible for simulation (windtunnel/cfd/sim).



Indeed, I remember we gifted Loic Bigois to Ferrari :)

#2525 BernieEc

BernieEc
  • Member

  • 2,131 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:02

From Sky Sports News' Rachel Brookes:

'Nico Rosberg says " pleased" is the best word to describe the Mercedes' performance'



#2526 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:02

Maybe i am right, in which case its very good idea. Although its not activated by head movement rather de activated by head movement hmmm, very clever view of the rules (like RBR seem to see them)


Yep that's what I thought you meant!

But it could be just another cooling vent. Has anyone seen another team with something like that?

Also if it is the DRD then the smaller hole (than the two larger ones before) would be explained because all the air going into that hole goes to stall the wing whereas before most of the air went out the back...

But at least their pace is nothing to do with DRD as they are not running it atm.


#2527 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 5,702 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:04

Maybe i am right, in which case its very good idea. Although its not activated by head movement rather de activated by head movement hmmm, very clever view of the rules (like RBR seem to see them)

that hole has been there on the cars for ages, for example check out this 'beauty' from 2009:
Posted Image
no F-duct, DRS, DDRS, DRD back then.

#2528 femi

femi
  • Member

  • 6,768 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:04

Interesting, Would most likely be deemed illegal.

I also remember them adding something to NR's helmet:

http://img2.auto-mot...20e2-665387.jpg


I doubt that. Unless the placement is illegal or the movement of the drivers head is unnatural. I submit both are not.
But then, what do I know...

#2529 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:08

Yep that's what I thought you meant!

But it could be just another cooling vent. Has anyone seen another team with something like that?

Also if it is the DRD then the smaller hole (than the two larger ones before) would be explained because all the air going into that hole goes to stall the wing whereas before most of the air went out the back...

But at least their pace is nothing to do with DRD as they are not running it atm.

I haven't seen anything alike on any other car yet, in this season or the last ten years. Its a strange place for cooling and very small for any gain for cooling i would expect, in wet weather the water contact with the helmet would surely enter the cooling system (unsure if that would be help or hinder) I think its the most likely candidate for the DRD inlet so far.
Or i may be completely wrong.

#2530 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:09

that hole has been there on the cars for ages, for example check out this 'beauty' from 2009:
Posted Image
no F-duct, DRS, DDRS, DRD back then.

Yes your correct i had never noticed the holes before, Back to the drawing board. Good idea if anything else i suppose.


#2531 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:11

I haven't seen anything alike on any other car yet, in this season or the last ten years. Its a strange place for cooling and very small for any gain for cooling i would expect, in wet weather the water contact with the helmet would surely enter the cooling system (unsure if that would be help or hinder) I think its the most likely candidate for the DRD inlet so far.
Or i may be completely wrong.


There you go...

#2532 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:12

that hole has been there on the cars for ages, for example check out this 'beauty' from 2009:
Posted Image
no F-duct, DRS, DDRS, DRD back then.


Yep also after thinking about the suggestion is flawed. The amount of air going in the hole is quite a lot at all speeds - in that position it wouldn't change much.

The fundamental idea on the other hand is actually quite a good one! If they could position 2 holes much further down just either side of the helmet so that the slightest movement of the helmet either side would result in one the holes being covered. The driver could even move his head without a corner do deactivate it earlier.

I think it is most likely already illegal or would be banned right away otherwise there would be solutions like this and mp even better ones...

Edited by amppatel, 03 March 2013 - 13:15.


#2533 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:14

There you go...


His suggestion that Merc are doing it is completely wrong - but the idea is actually a very good one...

#2534 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:14

There you go...

Well it was just speculation after all, I'd rather debate it than keep it to myself, Could be still the ticket as i think it might work.


#2535 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,931 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:19

What is the "Treble Traction"?? .... I've seen someone in the comments on James Allen's site mention this as Merc's trick for this season

Edit: Could this be the "lots going on under the skin" that was mentioned yesterday ... and could this be the reason why folks working for Merc were confident even before the start of testing that they would be competitive this season??

Edited by jjcale, 03 March 2013 - 13:22.


#2536 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:19

His suggestion that Merc are doing it is completely wrong - but the idea is actually a very good one...

Thanks :up:

#2537 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:27

His suggestion that Merc are doing it is completely wrong - but the idea is actually a very good one...


I know nothing (to quote Manuel), about aerodynamics etc but if teams were struggling to make a completely passive DRD system work then logic suggests the inconsistencies involved in using the drivers head to control it would be an awful lot harder, not to mention a lot of the teams use a hole in that position for cooling already. Oh, and its breaches this -

With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.18, any car system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.




#2538 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:31

I know nothing (to quote Manuel), about aerodynamics etc but if teams were struggling to make a completely passive DRD system work then logic suggests the inconsistencies involved in using the drivers head to control it would be an awful lot harder, not to mention a lot of the teams use a hole in that position for cooling already. Oh, and its breaches this -


Exactly, we did say that it would be illegal but your point about there being inconsistencies is completely wrong. It would essentially be an F-duct but instead of a leg/hand controlling the hole their head would be - there were no inconsistencies with the F-duct compared to the passive F-duct.

#2539 amppatel

amppatel
  • Member

  • 524 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:34

What is the "Treble Traction"?? .... I've seen someone in the comments on James Allen's site mention this as Merc's trick for this season

Edit: Could this be the "lots going on under the skin" that was mentioned yesterday ... and could this be the reason why folks working for Merc were confident even before the start of testing that they would be competitive this season??


It was a joke... but they mp have something to do with the suspension that is making it fast...


Advertisement

#2540 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:40

Exactly, we did say that it would be illegal but your point about there being inconsistencies is completely wrong. It would essentially be an F-duct but instead of a leg/hand controlling the hole their head would be - there were no inconsistencies with the F-duct compared to the passive F-duct.


Again, i refer to my lack of knowledge but with the original F-Duct the hole in the cockpit was completely covered with the drivers hand/leg physically against it, in this case the drivers head wouldn't physically be against the hole so its not actually covered, its going to be seriously hard to know for sure you are actually blocking the air from flowing through the hole in all different permutations (yaw angles/crossed winds/unpredictable head movement).

The fact the teams are using a hole in that position already for cooling that suggests that the drivers helmet has little effect for blocking the air flow as well.

#2541 Juan Kerr

Juan Kerr
  • Member

  • 2,948 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:42

some have said you can't improve that much in an evolutionary year, but we'll see when we get to Q3 AUS and everyone drops their pants

Honda>>Brawn?

#2542 Brandz07

Brandz07
  • Member

  • 3,310 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:46

Honda>>Brawn?


Not an evolutionary year.

#2543 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:48

Exactly, we did say that it would be illegal but your point about there being inconsistencies is completely wrong. It would essentially be an F-duct but instead of a leg/hand controlling the hole their head would be - there were no inconsistencies with the F-duct compared to the passive F-duct.

F-duct was basically as you say placing leg /hand/elbow over a tube to activate the duct, It was a deliberate action of the body, I wonder if the rules would allow a loop hole as its a non deliberate action due to the body having no option to move with the G -force

#2544 ApexMouse

ApexMouse
  • Member

  • 909 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:49

Williams 11-12?

Bottom line, the car is good. I think we can talk about a podium challenge in oz.

#2545 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:53

Again, i refer to my lack of knowledge but with the original F-Duct the hole in the cockpit was completely covered with the drivers hand/leg physically against it, in this case the drivers head wouldn't physically be against the hole so its not actually covered, its going to be seriously hard to know for sure you are actually blocking the air from flowing through the hole in all different permutations (yaw angles/crossed winds/unpredictable head movement).

The fact the teams are using a hole in that position already for cooling that suggests that the drivers helmet has little effect for blocking the air flow as well.

I think, may not be right but the effect they desire is air pressure change at a certain speed (i suppose track dependent)
For example - @ the switch may operate between 60-69 psi once the helmet moves the pressure may be well above this range closing the switch. I don't know for sure at all, if i did i'd be very wealthy. Come melbourne i may be right or completely off the mark.

#2546 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:56

Not being funny or anything but its the latter, i'll staple myself to a horse if its the former. :)

#2547 jjcale

jjcale
  • Member

  • 7,931 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 03 March 2013 - 14:00

It was a joke...

Oh :blush:

but they mp have something to do with the suspension that is making it fast...

Hmmm

#2548 0113Greenall

0113Greenall
  • Member

  • 55 posts
  • Joined: January 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 14:05

Not being funny or anything but its the latter, i'll staple myself to a horse if its the former. :)

Cant argue with that, But i said something similiar when i heard about the f-duct been operated by knee.

#2549 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 9,118 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 03 March 2013 - 14:21

View of new diffuser: https://pbs.twimg.co...ADnf8.jpg:large

Large gap between tyres and floor.

#2550 Xeriks

Xeriks
  • Member

  • 1,007 posts
  • Joined: February 13

Posted 03 March 2013 - 14:23

Rosberg's last stint on the stopwatch:

1:27.630 / 1:27.138 / 1:27.060 / 1:27.602 / 1:40.369 / 1:28.313 / 1:28.732 / 1:30.664 / 1:29.930 / 1:34.409 / 1:29.130 / 1:29.304 / 1:29.349 / 1:29. 455 / 1:39.710 / 1:29.442.

Sky F1 feed.