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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#2501 BigCHrome

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:07

why would they do that? Some of those are virtually sitting on the pit wall anyway. It makes no difference if they suck in the tests or not. It's merely two weeks to Melbourne. Some dumbass at F1 Technical was trying to stir the sxxt with similar thoughts.


That's where I got it from. I'm not talking about Wolff or Lauda, I'm talking about the investors from Stuttgart that are maybe starting to lose patience after 3 years of little success.

Steffen Vogels ‏@MercedesAMGSpy
No news about new updates, but a Mercedes employee told that there is a lot going on ''under the skin'' #F1 #F1W04


This is interesting.

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#2502 TomNokoe

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:07

1:20.130, I am dizzy.

#2503 boldhakka

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:08

Unless they are running extremely light to please the Merc board of directors.


I imagine at least one of the board of directors is a PITA and goes around saying "It's just testing". They won't be easy to fool, oh no.

#2504 Xeriks

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:10

1:20.130, I am dizzy.

Looking good!

#2505 BernieEc

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:11

i just farted when I saw that 1.20.1....I couldn't help it. Just popped out...sorry guys

#2506 Szoelloe

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:16

i just farted when I saw that 1.20.1....I couldn't help it. Just popped out...sorry guys


smells like roses


:lol:


#2507 george1981

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:27

That's where I got it from. I'm not talking about Wolff or Lauda, I'm talking about the investors from Stuttgart that are maybe starting to lose patience after 3 years of little success.

Steffen Vogels ‏@MercedesAMGSpy
No news about new updates, but a Mercedes employee told that there is a lot going on ''under the skin'' #F1 #F1W04


This is interesting.


Any idea what is going on under the skin? New/changed suspension maybe, even though that would probably be spotted by track observers.

#2508 femi

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:28

Check your logic...


I assume that is your polite way of asking for explanation.

He needed to have 7 lap worth of fuel to do those times. It is logical to assume - I reckon - that Merc won't leave it that tight so the car would actually have more that 7 lap of fuel in it. I just rounded it up to 10.

#2509 femi

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:31

i just farted when I saw that 1.20.1....I couldn't help it. Just popped out...sorry guys


It will be interesting knowing the number of laps in the stint.

#2510 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:31

If you include the out and in laps, he had at least 7 laps of fuel. I reckon he had at least 10 laps of fuel on board which is roughly 25Kg fuel



I assume that is your polite way of asking for explanation.

He needed to have 7 lap worth of fuel to do those times. It is logical to assume - I reckon - that Merc won't leave it that tight so the car would actually have more that 7 lap of fuel in it. I just rounded it up to 10.


Nope, your logic is wrong. You cannot use the out lap as that fuel is burnt off before the fast lap... :rolleyes:

#2511 BernieEc

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:34

pls lets not fight over crumbs and just be happy Merc is there or thereabouts

Edited by BernieEc, 03 March 2013 - 11:34.


#2512 molpid

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:39

back

#2513 race addicted

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:39

Nope, your logic is wrong. You cannot use the out lap as that fuel is burnt off before the fast lap... :rolleyes:


Oh ffs, this is all guesswork and it doesn't matter one iota if it was really nine or ten laps worth of fuel.
But, when talking about fuel loads, you always talk about the total load when the car leaves the pits, no-one deducts the fuel used to get round the out-lap.

#2514 paipa

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:56

Oh ffs, this is all guesswork and it doesn't matter one iota if it was really nine or ten laps worth of fuel.
But, when talking about fuel loads, you always talk about the total load when the car leaves the pits, no-one deducts the fuel used to get round the out-lap.

Of course everyone deducts the in- and out-lap fuel. Do you mentally correct actual Q3 laptimes for the in- and out-lap fuel? Do you go like "HOLY SHIT he even had in- and out-lap fuel on board when he left the pits"? They are needed to do a timed lap and they are the same for everyone in any timed session on a circuit. What's next, will you deduct sweat evaporating from the driver over a longer stint? :)

#2515 race addicted

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:57

Yes.

#2516 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:59

Of course everyone deducts the in- and out-lap fuel. Do you mentally correct actual Q3 laptimes for the in- and out-lap fuel? Do you go like "HOLY SHIT he even had in- and out-lap fuel on board when he left the pits"? They are needed to do a timed lap and they are the same for everyone in any timed session on a circuit. What's next, will you deduct sweat evaporating from the driver over a longer stint? :)


I think he was agreeing with you...

And I stand corrected! This is the problem with Physicists :(

Edited by amppatel, 03 March 2013 - 11:59.


#2517 micktosin

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:06

Posted Image

Posted Image

Quite a lot of Rake on that car :eek:

#2518 Timstr11

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:31

Merc do more tests with aero rigs these days. You can notice there is a different wind blowing through the aero department.

Posted Image

#2519 femi

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:41

Merc do more tests with aero rigs these days. You can notice there is a different wind blowing through the aero department.

Posted Image



Could it be that is because they are able to make proper use of the data collected since they for the first season do have an adequate simulator? One thing for sure, they have thrown down their gauntlet into the development race.

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#2520 Szoelloe

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:48

Could it be that is because they are able to make proper use of the data collected since they for the first season do have an adequate simulator? One thing for sure, they have thrown down their gauntlet into the development race.


The sim was up and running last winter. It has more to do with the upgraded wind tunnel, and as Timstr said, Mike Elliot & Co seem to work on a different level. If they are seriously committed to a high development rate, they need precise data, correlation, and the high tech measurement methods to ensure that.


#2521 Timstr11

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:48

Could it be that is because they are able to make proper use of the data collected since they for the first season do have an adequate simulator? One thing for sure, they have thrown down their gauntlet into the development race.

I think this is just current thinking in what you need to do to have windtunnel-track correlation. Obviously things were done differently there in the past (maybe only when they were doing full size testing in the tunnel), but clearly their methods have started changing since they fired Loic Bigois and hired Geoff Willis who's now responsible for simulation (windtunnel/cfd/sim).

#2522 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:49

Quite a lot of Rake on that car :eek:

What is the hole for below the airbox? (Just above nico's helmet) Is this for the fluid switch? Maybe explains how it won't be active in high speed corners as the drivers head will be pushed to either side by the g-force, And maybe in a straight line the helmet acts as some sort of coanda effect to feed the switch.
I'm no way clever enough to understand the technical side of the fluid switch, just throwing it out there for discussion - Sorry if it has been discussed i haven't had time to go through all the pages and just noticed it.

#2523 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:52

What is the hole for below the airbox? (Just above nico's helmet) Is this for the fluid switch? Maybe explains how it won't be active in high speed corners as the drivers head will be pushed to either side by the g-force, And maybe in a straight line the helmet acts as some sort of coanda effect to feed the switch.
I'm no way clever enough to understand the technical side of the fluid switch, just throwing it out there for discussion - Sorry if it has been discussed i haven't had time to go through all the pages and just noticed it.


Interesting, Would most likely be deemed illegal.

I also remember them adding something to NR's helmet:

http://img2.auto-mot...20e2-665387.jpg

Edited by amppatel, 03 March 2013 - 12:55.


#2524 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:55

Interesting, Would most likely be deemed illegal.

Maybe, But i would say its "passive" However i think your correct in that teams will want it to be looked at for validation / clarification of the regs.

#2525 femi

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:56

The sim was up and running last winter. It has more to do with the upgraded wind tunnel, and as Timstr said, Mike Elliot & Co seem to work on a different level. If they are seriously committed to a high development rate, they need precise data, correlation, and the high tech measurement methods to ensure that.



Thx man, I meant wind tunnel as well.

#2526 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:58

Maybe i am right, in which case its very good idea. Although its not activated by head movement rather de activated by head movement hmmm, very clever view of the rules (like RBR seem to see them)

#2527 femi

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:59

I think this is just current thinking in what you need to do to have windtunnel-track correlation. Obviously things were done differently there in the past (maybe only when they were doing full size testing in the tunnel), but clearly their methods have started changing since they fired Loic Bigois and hired Geoff Willis who's now responsible for simulation (windtunnel/cfd/sim).



Indeed, I remember we gifted Loic Bigois to Ferrari :)

#2528 BernieEc

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:02

From Sky Sports News' Rachel Brookes:

'Nico Rosberg says " pleased" is the best word to describe the Mercedes' performance'



#2529 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:02

Maybe i am right, in which case its very good idea. Although its not activated by head movement rather de activated by head movement hmmm, very clever view of the rules (like RBR seem to see them)


Yep that's what I thought you meant!

But it could be just another cooling vent. Has anyone seen another team with something like that?

Also if it is the DRD then the smaller hole (than the two larger ones before) would be explained because all the air going into that hole goes to stall the wing whereas before most of the air went out the back...

But at least their pace is nothing to do with DRD as they are not running it atm.


#2530 Zava

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:04

Maybe i am right, in which case its very good idea. Although its not activated by head movement rather de activated by head movement hmmm, very clever view of the rules (like RBR seem to see them)

that hole has been there on the cars for ages, for example check out this 'beauty' from 2009:
Posted Image
no F-duct, DRS, DDRS, DRD back then.

#2531 femi

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:04

Interesting, Would most likely be deemed illegal.

I also remember them adding something to NR's helmet:

http://img2.auto-mot...20e2-665387.jpg


I doubt that. Unless the placement is illegal or the movement of the drivers head is unnatural. I submit both are not.
But then, what do I know...

#2532 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:08

Yep that's what I thought you meant!

But it could be just another cooling vent. Has anyone seen another team with something like that?

Also if it is the DRD then the smaller hole (than the two larger ones before) would be explained because all the air going into that hole goes to stall the wing whereas before most of the air went out the back...

But at least their pace is nothing to do with DRD as they are not running it atm.

I haven't seen anything alike on any other car yet, in this season or the last ten years. Its a strange place for cooling and very small for any gain for cooling i would expect, in wet weather the water contact with the helmet would surely enter the cooling system (unsure if that would be help or hinder) I think its the most likely candidate for the DRD inlet so far.
Or i may be completely wrong.

#2533 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:09

that hole has been there on the cars for ages, for example check out this 'beauty' from 2009:
Posted Image
no F-duct, DRS, DDRS, DRD back then.

Yes your correct i had never noticed the holes before, Back to the drawing board. Good idea if anything else i suppose.


#2534 olliek88

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:11

I haven't seen anything alike on any other car yet, in this season or the last ten years. Its a strange place for cooling and very small for any gain for cooling i would expect, in wet weather the water contact with the helmet would surely enter the cooling system (unsure if that would be help or hinder) I think its the most likely candidate for the DRD inlet so far.
Or i may be completely wrong.


There you go...

#2535 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:12

that hole has been there on the cars for ages, for example check out this 'beauty' from 2009:
Posted Image
no F-duct, DRS, DDRS, DRD back then.


Yep also after thinking about the suggestion is flawed. The amount of air going in the hole is quite a lot at all speeds - in that position it wouldn't change much.

The fundamental idea on the other hand is actually quite a good one! If they could position 2 holes much further down just either side of the helmet so that the slightest movement of the helmet either side would result in one the holes being covered. The driver could even move his head without a corner do deactivate it earlier.

I think it is most likely already illegal or would be banned right away otherwise there would be solutions like this and mp even better ones...

Edited by amppatel, 03 March 2013 - 13:15.


#2536 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:14

There you go...


His suggestion that Merc are doing it is completely wrong - but the idea is actually a very good one...

#2537 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:14

There you go...

Well it was just speculation after all, I'd rather debate it than keep it to myself, Could be still the ticket as i think it might work.


#2538 jjcale

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:19

What is the "Treble Traction"?? .... I've seen someone in the comments on James Allen's site mention this as Merc's trick for this season

Edit: Could this be the "lots going on under the skin" that was mentioned yesterday ... and could this be the reason why folks working for Merc were confident even before the start of testing that they would be competitive this season??

Edited by jjcale, 03 March 2013 - 13:22.


#2539 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:19

His suggestion that Merc are doing it is completely wrong - but the idea is actually a very good one...

Thanks :up:

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#2540 olliek88

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:27

His suggestion that Merc are doing it is completely wrong - but the idea is actually a very good one...


I know nothing (to quote Manuel), about aerodynamics etc but if teams were struggling to make a completely passive DRD system work then logic suggests the inconsistencies involved in using the drivers head to control it would be an awful lot harder, not to mention a lot of the teams use a hole in that position for cooling already. Oh, and its breaches this -

With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.18, any car system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.




#2541 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:31

I know nothing (to quote Manuel), about aerodynamics etc but if teams were struggling to make a completely passive DRD system work then logic suggests the inconsistencies involved in using the drivers head to control it would be an awful lot harder, not to mention a lot of the teams use a hole in that position for cooling already. Oh, and its breaches this -


Exactly, we did say that it would be illegal but your point about there being inconsistencies is completely wrong. It would essentially be an F-duct but instead of a leg/hand controlling the hole their head would be - there were no inconsistencies with the F-duct compared to the passive F-duct.

#2542 amppatel

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:34

What is the "Treble Traction"?? .... I've seen someone in the comments on James Allen's site mention this as Merc's trick for this season

Edit: Could this be the "lots going on under the skin" that was mentioned yesterday ... and could this be the reason why folks working for Merc were confident even before the start of testing that they would be competitive this season??


It was a joke... but they mp have something to do with the suspension that is making it fast...


#2543 olliek88

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:40

Exactly, we did say that it would be illegal but your point about there being inconsistencies is completely wrong. It would essentially be an F-duct but instead of a leg/hand controlling the hole their head would be - there were no inconsistencies with the F-duct compared to the passive F-duct.


Again, i refer to my lack of knowledge but with the original F-Duct the hole in the cockpit was completely covered with the drivers hand/leg physically against it, in this case the drivers head wouldn't physically be against the hole so its not actually covered, its going to be seriously hard to know for sure you are actually blocking the air from flowing through the hole in all different permutations (yaw angles/crossed winds/unpredictable head movement).

The fact the teams are using a hole in that position already for cooling that suggests that the drivers helmet has little effect for blocking the air flow as well.

#2544 Juan Kerr

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:42

some have said you can't improve that much in an evolutionary year, but we'll see when we get to Q3 AUS and everyone drops their pants

Honda>>Brawn?

#2545 Brandz07

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:46

Honda>>Brawn?


Not an evolutionary year.

#2546 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:48

Exactly, we did say that it would be illegal but your point about there being inconsistencies is completely wrong. It would essentially be an F-duct but instead of a leg/hand controlling the hole their head would be - there were no inconsistencies with the F-duct compared to the passive F-duct.

F-duct was basically as you say placing leg /hand/elbow over a tube to activate the duct, It was a deliberate action of the body, I wonder if the rules would allow a loop hole as its a non deliberate action due to the body having no option to move with the G -force

#2547 ApexMouse

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:49

Williams 11-12?

Bottom line, the car is good. I think we can talk about a podium challenge in oz.

#2548 0113Greenall

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:53

Again, i refer to my lack of knowledge but with the original F-Duct the hole in the cockpit was completely covered with the drivers hand/leg physically against it, in this case the drivers head wouldn't physically be against the hole so its not actually covered, its going to be seriously hard to know for sure you are actually blocking the air from flowing through the hole in all different permutations (yaw angles/crossed winds/unpredictable head movement).

The fact the teams are using a hole in that position already for cooling that suggests that the drivers helmet has little effect for blocking the air flow as well.

I think, may not be right but the effect they desire is air pressure change at a certain speed (i suppose track dependent)
For example - @ the switch may operate between 60-69 psi once the helmet moves the pressure may be well above this range closing the switch. I don't know for sure at all, if i did i'd be very wealthy. Come melbourne i may be right or completely off the mark.

#2549 olliek88

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 13:56

Not being funny or anything but its the latter, i'll staple myself to a horse if its the former. :)

#2550 jjcale

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 14:00

It was a joke...

Oh :blush:

but they mp have something to do with the suspension that is making it fast...

Hmmm