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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#2851 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 08:45

Guys, I have been following W04 thread on F1technical. There are comments about sealing the exhaust gases flow to the diffuser. It seems there is an interchange between the use of these terms; exhaust gases and plume. I know what "plume" is in English. I am just wondering if they are actually the same in F1 terminology. It seems the better the sealing the better the DF and if so, why is it so damn difficult to achieve? seeing that the exhaust gases are escaping at high velocity...

Edited by femi, 08 March 2013 - 08:46.


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#2852 malibu

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:15

One of the good indicators of the W04 speed may be its pace on wet. On those track conditions, fuel loads have less impact, tires are the same. Times set at the same moment comparing to other cars, the W04 was immediatly very quick, if not the quickest. This shows at least the car is well balanced and have a good mechanical grip.

Edited by malibu, 08 March 2013 - 09:17.


#2853 maverick69

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 09:51

Guys, I have been following W04 thread on F1technical. There are comments about sealing the exhaust gases flow to the diffuser. It seems there is an interchange between the use of these terms; exhaust gases and plume. I know what "plume" is in English. I am just wondering if they are actually the same in F1 terminology. It seems the better the sealing the better the DF and if so, why is it so damn difficult to achieve? seeing that the exhaust gases are escaping at high velocity...


I was gonna write something - but Scrabs probably says it better...... and he's got schematics:

http://scarbsf1.com/...oanda-exhausts/

#2854 slmk

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:24

One of the good indicators of the W04 speed may be its pace on wet. On those track conditions, fuel loads have less impact, tires are the same. Times set at the same moment comparing to other cars, the W04 was immediatly very quick, if not the quickest. This shows at least the car is well balanced and have a good mechanical grip.


Or that it works its tyres the hardest, which would be a sign of the W03 woes surfacing.

Edited by slmk, 08 March 2013 - 11:56.


#2855 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:33

Or that it works its tyres the hardest, which would be a sign of the W03 foes surfacing.


that so totally does not make any sense


#2856 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:41

I was gonna write something - but Scrabs probably says it better...... and he's got schematics:

http://scarbsf1.com/...oanda-exhausts/


Thanks Maverick69, Scarbs post explained a lot! He makes it look easy to implement though :) and if I understood it correctly, the shape, the placement and the internal structure is the Key here. The way I see it, it shouldn't be too long before the all the teams reaches a rather similar DF levels which may mean that mechanical grip may become the differential determining factor between teams. Am I correct?

#2857 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 10:46

Thanks Maverick69, Scarbs post explained a lot! He makes it look easy to implement though :) and if I understood it correctly, the shape, the placement and the internal structure is the Key here. The way I see it, it shouldn't be too long before the all the teams reaches a rather similar DF levels which may mean that mechanical grip may become the differential determining factor between teams. Am I correct?


No


#2858 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:03

No

Thanks for the expansive response ;)
Anyone else that can provide a little more detailed response?

Edited by femi, 08 March 2013 - 11:05.


#2859 Masenco

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:18

Thanks for the expansive response ;)
Anyone else that can provide a little more detailed response?


I believe there is much scope to develop the aero than there is for the mechanical grip.
Mclaren did find the need to change their front suspension as they felt finding larger gains with their already developed setup was going to be increasingly difficult- so you do have a point; but i cant see the teams reaching an aero performance wall anytime soon

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#2860 undersquare

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:29

Thanks for the expansive response ;)
Anyone else that can provide a little more detailed response?


I'd observe that the Caterham has a lot less downforce than the top teams, so it is still variable I reckon. Last year the Merc reportedly was frying its own rear tyres with the exhaust and nobody knew! I suppose it's very difficult to model the exhaust in a windtunnel, but anyway I suspect Bigois' leaving might have been for that kind of cockup.

I'm wondering if in the pursuit of downforce the Merc might start to look more stiffly sprung as time goes on, like the Mac. I have the idea that absolute maximum d/f is a compromise with its consistency, and that a stiff chassis helps to reduce that tradeoff. Also Lewis likes a really, really reactive front end.

#2861 jjcale

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:48

I'd observe that the Caterham has a lot less downforce than the top teams, so it is still variable I reckon. Last year the Merc reportedly was frying its own rear tyres with the exhaust and nobody knew! I suppose it's very difficult to model the exhaust in a windtunnel, but anyway I suspect Bigois' leaving might have been for that kind of cockup.

I'm wondering if in the pursuit of downforce the Merc might start to look more stiffly sprung as time goes on, like the Mac. I have the idea that absolute maximum d/f is a compromise with its consistency, and that a stiff chassis helps to reduce that tradeoff. Also Lewis likes a really, really reactive front end.


I am expecting this also ... the compliant chasis does not impress me as much as more downforce would at this stage ... hopefully it is not a tradeoff that will have to be made.

#2862 Masenco

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:54

I'd observe that the Caterham has a lot less downforce than the top teams, so it is still variable I reckon. Last year the Merc reportedly was frying its own rear tyres with the exhaust and nobody knew! I suppose it's very difficult to model the exhaust in a windtunnel, but anyway I suspect Bigois' leaving might have been for that kind of cockup.

I'm wondering if in the pursuit of downforce the Merc might start to look more stiffly sprung as time goes on, like the Mac. I have the idea that absolute maximum d/f is a compromise with its consistency, and that a stiff chassis helps to reduce that tradeoff. Also Lewis likes a really, really reactive front end.


My understanding is that McLaren had to have a stiffly sprung car inorder to make the aero work due to their aero philosophy- I don't believe it's something that will work or is required on all cars.
The rbr wasn't very stiffly sprung so I don't see any reason why merc would choose to go down that road- it's a real positive that their car seems so fast and has such a soft suspension.

#2863 moorsey

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 11:57

I am expecting this also ... the compliant chasis does not impress me as much as more downforce would at this stage ... hopefully it is not a tradeoff that will have to be made.


On the other hand, the fully "down-force-loaded" compliant chassis would be closer to the ground and this, in turn, could result in a greater "ground effect"?



#2864 okochajj

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:02

No


Thanks Smarta**

#2865 slmk

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:19

http://www.auto-moto...rk-6742689.html

Best Sector Times @ Barcelona.

Mercedes quickest in Sector 2 and 3 (Alonso slightly quicker than both ROS and HAM, but overall Mercedes is the quickest team). Surprisingly slow in Sector 1, but that might be due to gearing or that they weren't pushing through T3.

Edited by slmk, 08 March 2013 - 12:19.


#2866 muramasa

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:19

My understanding is that McLaren had to have a stiffly sprung car inorder to make the aero work due to their aero philosophy- I don't believe it's something that will work or is required on all cars.
The rbr wasn't very stiffly sprung so I don't see any reason why merc would choose to go down that road- it's a real positive that their car seems so fast and has such a soft suspension.

yea cars like mclaren and sauber had v stiff suspension and that had been considered as their major weakness over the past few years esp 10 and 11. When the car has to be set up stiff it's because the aero has smaller window of operation. Mechanically the softer the better (in general. F1 car is extremely stiff anyway so realistically cannot be made too soft, i believe).


#2867 maverick69

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:20

The main reason why the Mac has been recently so stiffly sprung is because of the premium they seem to place on generating downforce from the underfloor. Theoretically this is the most efficient and powerful way to create downforce. This also means that the car is naturally very sensitive to ride height changes and the phenomenon of porpoising.

Edited by maverick69, 08 March 2013 - 12:21.


#2868 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:22

I am expecting this also ... the compliant chasis does not impress me as much as more downforce would at this stage ... hopefully it is not a tradeoff that will have to be made.



@Undersquare and JJcale, thx for the responses... :up:

#2869 Masenco

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:28

The main reason why the Mac has been recently so stiffly sprung is because of the premium they seem to place on generating downforce from the underfloor. Theoretically this is the most efficient and powerful way to create downforce. This also means that the car is naturally very sensitive to ride height changes and the phenomenon of porpoising.


You seem to make sense, but one would then assume that last year Mclaren would be the first team to have a high nose so as to get as much air underneath the car as possible; but they started the season with a pretty lose nose and were adamant that they were right.

Also, I'm not sure about this, but isn't the point of generating downforce from the underfloor that you get as little air under the car as possible inorder to create low pressure underneath the car and suck the car to the track? Or is this something else?

#2870 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:37

My understanding is that McLaren had to have a stiffly sprung car inorder to make the aero work due to their aero philosophy- I don't believe it's something that will work or is required on all cars.
The rbr wasn't very stiffly sprung so I don't see any reason why merc would choose to go down that road- it's a real positive that their car seems so fast and has such a soft suspension.



With regards to RBR, they way the exhaust gases are used to feed the diffuser and hence generate DF is a bit different from Mclaren. Please the link to Scarbs article posted by Maverick69 a few posts back. From a layman's perspective, being stiff will lose the car time over Kerbs and uneven track surfaces and there are quite a number of them in F1. Personally, I do not see any advantage of having a stiff car if it can be avoided.

But then like I said, I am a layman in these matters.

#2871 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:45

Thanks Maverick69, Scarbs post explained a lot! He makes it look easy to implement though :) and if I understood it correctly, the shape, the placement and the internal structure is the Key here. The way I see it, it shouldn't be too long before the all the teams reaches a rather similar DF levels which may mean that mechanical grip may become the differential determining factor between teams. Am I correct?


Ok. Your post is not unlike Snooty's, though for all the different reasons. What do you mean by 'shape, 'internal structure' and 'placement'? If it would be easy, as undersquare has kindly pointed out, Caterham would be up there. The exhaust solution is responsible for a smaller part of overall DF, though obviously important, but it cannot be spoken of individually. It is definitely not a 'bolt-on' solution to increase DF(see the W03 last season). It is integrated into a design, carefully considering, designing and fine-tuning every area of the car, from the tip of the nose to the rear wheels, all working towards a well-balanced overall DF level (Since it is the last season for the current regs, "too long" has no meaning anymore in the context you mentioned it). Even that though, is not all that makes a car function at a given level. You imply that mech traction could make the difference between two cars with a similar DF level. Again, superb mechanical traction is not a silver bullet in itself, I do believe it could be counteractive, if not in harmony with any given car's aero, but yes, it could add a lot. 'Traction' and 'mech traction' are not the same things either. While 'mech traction' I think is related mostly to the suspension itself, 'traction' of a car is the overall effect of all the above spoken factors, plus some. The majority of the teams have decent mech traction too, the differences are not that big, IMHO. Saying all that, this year's pirellis are so far a mystery for every team, it seems. On the long run, it will all come down to who could exploit them more on a given stint in race trim, which, as usual gives a special importance to one-lap speed too. Being efficient with the tyres, considering the above, is not going to be down to a great suspension only. Anyone with engineering knowledge, do feel free to correct me if I am wrong though. Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Szoelloe, 08 March 2013 - 12:48.


#2872 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:45

http://www.auto-moto...rk-6742689.html

Best Sector Times @ Barcelona.

Mercedes quickest in Sector 2 and 3 (Alonso slightly quicker than both ROS and HAM, but overall Mercedes is the quickest team). Surprisingly slow in Sector 1, but that might be due to gearing or that they weren't pushing through T3.

If Alonso went quicker than both Rosberg and Hamilton in Sector 3, I'm not sure you can say Mercedes is quicker there, can you? How does that work? :well:

#2873 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:47

You seem to make sense, but one would then assume that last year Mclaren would be the first team to have a high nose so as to get as much air underneath the car as possible; but they started the season with a pretty lose nose and were adamant that they were right.

Also, I'm not sure about this, but isn't the point of generating downforce from the underfloor that you get as little air under the car as possible inorder to create low pressure underneath the car and suck the car to the track? Or is this something else?


I think this is correct if the diffuser is capable of "sucking" good proportion of the air from underfloor. no?

#2874 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:50

http://www.auto-moto...rk-6742689.html

Best Sector Times @ Barcelona.

Mercedes quickest in Sector 2 and 3 (Alonso slightly quicker than both ROS and HAM, but overall Mercedes is the quickest team). Surprisingly slow in Sector 1, but that might be due to gearing or that they weren't pushing through T3.


I read somewhere that Alonso was faster than the Merc in Sectors 1 & 3 but the Merc was about 0.4sec faster in the 2nd sector. In that same article, it is expected that Ferrari upgrades (which were not brought on the car during the last test) would aim to tackle this. But I expect Merc to attack their own deficiencies as well.

Melbourne will reveal all :)

#2875 jrg19

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:54

In a weeks time we will be slightly wiser to this cars chances.

#2876 windtravels

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 12:58

I read somewhere that Alonso was faster than the Merc in Sectors 1 & 3 but the Merc was about 0.4sec faster in the 2nd sector. In that same article, it is expected that Ferrari upgrades (which were not brought on the car during the last test) would aim to tackle this. But I expect Merc to attack their own deficiencies as well.

Melbourne will reveal all :)


What can we deduce about the cars relative strengths and weaknesses?

Seems we are either lacking or not pushing in T3 - could indicate a lack of df. although other medium/fast corners the car must be performing pretty well. clearly very good in the slower twisty stuff - good mech grip & traction...

agree/disagree?



#2877 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:06

What can we deduce about the cars relative strengths and weaknesses?

Seems we are either lacking or not pushing in T3 - could indicate a lack of df. although other medium/fast corners the car must be performing pretty well. clearly very good in the slower twisty stuff - good mech grip & traction...

agree/disagree?

There's more to S1 than Turn 3. Speed down the front straight can gain you time in S1, too. Mercedes might have been just as or nearly as quick through T3 but dont carry as much speed from the start/finish line to the braking zone.

This is of course all assuming equal fuel loads. If the Ferrari was running heavier, it would explain the deficiency in S2, for instance.

Its hard to say much without a bit more data to confirm patterns.

Edited by Seanspeed, 08 March 2013 - 13:07.


#2878 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:11

What can we deduce about the cars relative strengths and weaknesses?

Seems we are either lacking or not pushing in T3 - could indicate a lack of df. although other medium/fast corners the car must be performing pretty well. clearly very good in the slower twisty stuff - good mech grip & traction...

agree/disagree?


Barcelona is still considered to be a track where performance is indicative. I think even LH has said something along those lines. That is the only thing I can lean on, really. Comparing sector times - comparing times at all - could be pretty misleading. The more I look at them, and the more I think about it, the more confused I get. The W04 performed well, IMHO. I tend to agree.


#2879 Kaosoner

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:30

According To Bob Bell, this year should be a real step forward for Mercedes since they are pretty confident the W04 got strong baseline. Car is behaving as expected which makes them more confident for upgrades to come nexgen-auto bob bell interview sorry but can't find it in English

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#2880 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:32

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105894

I was hoping to start hearing form the likes of Bell, and Costa. I think it is important for them to personally start to live up to roles they have taken, and give statements that they can be held up to. So there you are. Drivers opinions are important. But the tech heads have to speak too.

Edited by Szoelloe, 08 March 2013 - 13:33.


#2881 slmk

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:41

If Alonso went quicker than both Rosberg and Hamilton in Sector 3, I'm not sure you can say Mercedes is quicker there, can you? How does that work? :well:


I meant Alonso went quicker in S3.

Edited by slmk, 08 March 2013 - 13:42.


#2882 Kaosoner

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 13:55

here are some pics from the last testing session

http://www.formule1....62311777.14.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320823.28.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320823.69.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320825.32.jpg
http://www.formule1....62330861.39.jpg
http://www.formule1....362330863.1.jpg
http://www.formule1....62330863.73.jpg
http://www.formule1....62387087.62.jpg
http://www.formule1....62387092.31.jpg
http://www.formule1....62387092.57.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320822.84.jpg
http://www.formule1....62312406.21.jpg

#2883 Neomaster121

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 15:31

According To Bob Bell, this year should be a real step forward for Mercedes since they are pretty confident the W04 got strong baseline. Car is behaving as expected which makes them more confident for upgrades to come nexgen-auto bob bell interview sorry but can't find it in English


Sounds like good news

Just hope there are close enough at the start of the season, it be a shame if they spent most of the first half of the season just developing to equal others (if they have to manage a massive deficit).

#2884 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:10

I thought the Bob Bell interview was very interesting.

"We aren't taking anything for granted".....
Could he possibly mean the insane performance advantage that Merc has over the field :stoned: :stoned:

#2885 okochajj

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:15

here are some pics from the last testing session

http://www.formule1....62311777.14.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320823.28.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320823.69.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320825.32.jpg
http://www.formule1....62330861.39.jpg
http://www.formule1....362330863.1.jpg
http://www.formule1....62330863.73.jpg
http://www.formule1....62387087.62.jpg
http://www.formule1....62387092.31.jpg
http://www.formule1....62387092.57.jpg
http://www.formule1....62320822.84.jpg
http://www.formule1....62312406.21.jpg


how do u get to browse all this pictures with high res , all i get when i go to formule1.nl is a a few pics without high res

#2886 jrg19

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:22

how do u get to browse all this pictures with high res , all i get when i go to formule1.nl is a a few pics without high res


Right click and "open in new tab" usually works for me.

#2887 NoDivergence

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:29

I thought the Bob Bell interview was very interesting.

"We aren't taking anything for granted".....
Could he possibly mean the insane performance advantage that Merc has over the field :stoned: :stoned:


I agree that the Mercedes has a very good start, and I'm rooting for them because I'm a huge fan, but it's a HUGE stretch to say they have a performance advantage over a team like Redbull, not to mention Ferrari and possibly Lotus or McLaren (if they sort out the setup by Melbourne).

Let's be a bit cautious here, because there still is a lot of smoke and mirrors and mind games that the other teams are fooling around with

#2888 TomNokoe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:32

I agree that the Mercedes has a very good start, and I'm rooting for them because I'm a huge fan, but it's a HUGE stretch to say they have a performance advantage over a team like Redbull, not to mention Ferrari and possibly Lotus or McLaren (if they sort out the setup by Melbourne).

Let's be a bit cautious here, because there still is a lot of smoke and mirrors and mind games that the other teams are fooling around with

There was a slight hint of hyperbole and sarcasm, my friend! :) I find it interesting that Mac and Ferrari are being very cautious about their chances in Oz but Mercedes seem quietly confident... Someone will fall flat on their face in Oz and I'm sure it won't be Mercedes

#2889 okochajj

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:36

Right click and "open in new tab" usually works for me.


but for example some of the pictures that he posted dont appear in photos-->3 march barcelona test

#2890 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:37

There was a slight hint of hyperbole and sarcasm, my friend! :) I find it interesting that Mac and Ferrari are being very cautious about their chances in Oz but Mercedes seem quietly confident... Someone will fall flat on their face in Oz and I'm sure it won't be Mercedes


Have we read the same article?


#2891 Timstr11

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 16:38

There was a slight hint of hyperbole and sarcasm, my friend! :) I find it interesting that Mac and Ferrari are being very cautious about their chances in Oz but Mercedes seem quietly confident... Someone will fall flat on their face in Oz and I'm sure it won't be Mercedes

So far all Mercedes have been saying is that they have improved. Remember they were quite some way back. They have not said anything about being one of the fastest. It's journalists and fans who've made that conclusion. Ferrari actually do sound quite optimistic. Domenicalli is speaking of a podium finish in Melbourne.

Edited by Timstr11, 08 March 2013 - 16:39.


#2892 BigCHrome

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 17:04

There was a slight hint of hyperbole and sarcasm, my friend! :) I find it interesting that Mac and Ferrari are being very cautious about their chances in Oz but Mercedes seem quietly confident... Someone will fall flat on their face in Oz and I'm sure it won't be Mercedes


Is this the same Mac that employs Sergio Perez? He's been proudly stating that he'll win the WDC to anyone that will listen.

#2893 trogggy

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 17:10

Is this the same Mac that employs Sergio Perez? He's been proudly stating that he'll win the WDC to anyone that will listen.

Bollocks.
Link please.
Edit: The Mac thread might be a better place for it. Not that there is one.

Edited by trogggy, 08 March 2013 - 17:11.


#2894 slmk

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 17:13

Bollocks.
Link please.


www.google.com

#2895 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 17:44

www.google.com

All I got was a white page with a search box and some small little graphics.

#2896 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:00

oh, come on, let's skip the google sxxt, its an age-old Perez comment, from December. Nothing to do with testing, and certainly nothing new.



‘My target is to win the championship already next year,’ Perez said. ‘That takes a lot of work during the season, so it's very important to start my preparation really well with them and try to reach their targets.’

http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz2MyKSS100

It may have been an article on the Autosport site too, but I couldn't care less, really, and is seriously OT here?



#2897 trogggy

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:11

‘My target is to win the championship already next year,’ Perez said.

You'd* have to be fairly hard of understanding to equate that quote with what BigChrome claimed.

*You ≠ Szoelloe.


#2898 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:17

You'd* have to be fairly hard of understanding to equate that quote with what BigChrome claimed.

*You ≠ Szoelloe.



yeah, I sure stepped in that big time haven't I?


#2899 bauss

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:49

You'd* have to be fairly hard of understanding to equate that quote with what BigChrome claimed.

*You ≠ Szoelloe.


meanwhile no Merc driver not even the past WDC has talked about his target being the championship this year...

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#2900 trogggy

trogggy
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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:53

meanwhile no Merc driver not even the past WDC has talked about his target being the championship this year...

What's your point?