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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#2901 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:17

You'd* have to be fairly hard of understanding to equate that quote with what BigChrome claimed.

*You ≠ Szoelloe.



yeah, I sure stepped in that big time haven't I?


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#2902 bauss

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:49

You'd* have to be fairly hard of understanding to equate that quote with what BigChrome claimed.

*You ≠ Szoelloe.


meanwhile no Merc driver not even the past WDC has talked about his target being the championship this year...

#2903 trogggy

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 18:53

meanwhile no Merc driver not even the past WDC has talked about his target being the championship this year...

What's your point?

#2904 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 19:04

The main reason why the Mac has been recently so stiffly sprung is because of the premium they seem to place on generating downforce from the underfloor.

I remember how stiffly sprung the MP4-25 was at Turkey (extremely noticeable in the braking zone after the long back straight, T12). With the layout of the lap belt, a female driver in that car would find braking into T12, a very intimate experience to say the least.

#2905 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 19:21

I remember how stiffly sprung the MP4-25 was at Turkey (extremely noticeable in the braking zone after the long back straight, T12). With the layout of the lap belt, a female driver in that car would find braking into T12, a very intimate experience to say the least.


Do Mclaren have plugs in their seats?

#2906 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 19:43

http://www.formule1....62320825.32.jpg
Judging by the image linked above, it seems to me (armchair aero engineer) that Mercedes isn't entirely happy with the exhaust flow/plume from the W04. The strake ahead of the rear wheels designed to isolate the exhaust gas from the tyres, is very long in comparison to other teams. My amateur guess is that while this will have the advantage of directing and positioning the exhaust gases more accurately, it will also stifle the migration of air towards the coke bottle and central diffuser. I believe the strake was designed with an inward curve as it rises to alleviate some of this deficiency. It will be interesting to see how Mercedes develop this area in the future.

#2907 femi

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 20:03

http://www.formule1....62320825.32.jpg
Judging by the image linked above, it seems to me (armchair aero engineer) that Mercedes isn't entirely happy with the exhaust flow/plume from the W04. The strake ahead of the rear wheels designed to isolate the exhaust gas from the tyres, is very long in comparison to other teams. My amateur guess is that while this will have the advantage of directing and positioning the exhaust gases more accurately, it will also stifle the migration of air towards the coke bottle and central diffuser. I believe the strake was designed with an inward curve as it rises to alleviate some of this deficiency. It will be interesting to see how Mercedes develop this area in the future.



What do you mean, I thought air was supposed to flow away from the coke bottle and not into it. Basically, I do not understand what you mean. Is more explanation possible. I confess I know very little about these things...

#2908 Szoelloe

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 20:07

http://www.formule1....62320825.32.jpg
Judging by the image linked above, it seems to me (armchair aero engineer) that Mercedes isn't entirely happy with the exhaust flow/plume from the W04. The strake ahead of the rear wheels designed to isolate the exhaust gas from the tyres, is very long in comparison to other teams. My amateur guess is that while this will have the advantage of directing and positioning the exhaust gases more accurately, it will also stifle the migration of air towards the coke bottle and central diffuser. I believe the strake was designed with an inward curve as it rises to alleviate some of this deficiency. It will be interesting to see how Mercedes develop this area in the future.


well, that's VERY armchair.


#2909 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 20:24

What do you mean, I thought air was supposed to flow away from the coke bottle and not into it. Basically, I do not understand what you mean. Is more explanation possible. I confess I know very little about these things...

Ahead of the exhaust plume the air should follow the undercut contours of the side pod and head towards the coke bottle. Behind the exhaust plume a proportion of the air will ideally flow over the exhaust plume (the plume is very low to/in contact with the floor surface here) and in towards the coke bottle. As I mentioned previously I'm no authority on this, just wanting to promote some discussion. :)

#2910 undersquare

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 20:29

What do you mean, I thought air was supposed to flow away from the coke bottle and not into it. Basically, I do not understand what you mean. Is more explanation possible. I confess I know very little about these things...


Correct me Obi if I am wrong, I had noticed this too - there is a flow that comes round the sidepod, in the undercut, then goes inwards across the top of the floor. On the face of it this flow will be tripped up by the longitudinal curved strake that guides the exhaust plume.

Well, it's too obvious for F1 aero engineers not to have noticed lol so either the flows are alright - maybe it's turbulent there from the font wheels?? - or it's a temporary/test solution that will be updated for Melbourne. Be interesting to see if it changes.

#2911 Timstr11

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 20:51

Correct me Obi if I am wrong, I had noticed this too - there is a flow that comes round the sidepod, in the undercut, then goes inwards across the top of the floor. On the face of it this flow will be tripped up by the longitudinal curved strake that guides the exhaust plume.

Well, it's too obvious for F1 aero engineers not to have noticed lol so either the flows are alright - maybe it's turbulent there from the font wheels?? - or it's a temporary/test solution that will be updated for Melbourne. Be interesting to see if it changes.

The flow-viz gives a bit of an insight into the flow over that part of the floor, showing the flow coming around the sidepod towards the coke-bottle. You can see the flow starts to diverge, which is in line with the strakes under the floor/diffuser.
Posted Image

#2912 Coops3

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 21:13

Horrible graining on those tyres... I'm assuming that was the same for everyone?

#2913 Timstr11

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 21:29

Lewis about Merc:
http://www1.skysport.../johnny-herbert

Edited by Timstr11, 08 March 2013 - 21:41.


#2914 Guizotia

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 21:31

What do you mean, I thought air was supposed to flow away from the coke bottle and not into it. Basically, I do not understand what you mean. Is more explanation possible. I confess I know very little about these things...


My understanding of a diffuser s that you need to pack in as much air as possible on the way in, and then stretch it horizontally and vertically on the way out. This creates a low pressure zone that sucks the car down.

Posted Image

I don't know if the coke bottle allows more air and therefore increases pressure on top of the diffuser, which increases the pressure differential, or the fast air is at low pressure creating a further low pressure zone.

Either way I think it is all about making the diffuser work better.

This quote suggests the latter:

Ensuring that this airflow is funneled to the coke-bottle zone is a critical element of ensuring the diffuser works efficiently. This is because fast airflow over the rear of the car creates a low pressure zone above the diffuser exit and reduces the risk of airflow separation in the diffuser.


http://www.f1fanatic...epods-exhausts/

Edited by Guizotia, 08 March 2013 - 21:33.


#2915 Coops3

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 21:39

Lewis about Merc:
http://www.motorspor...ton/0473434.jpg


Not sure you've posted the right link there dude...

#2916 Timstr11

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 21:42

Not sure you've posted the right link there dude...

http://www1.skysport.../johnny-herbert

Corrected. thx.

#2917 Neomaster121

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 21:59

http://www1.skysport.../johnny-herbert

Corrected. thx.


wow maybe slip of the tongue

but he was talking about wins with rosberg taking some him taking some

sounds more than just the chance of mercedes winning 1 race

#2918 BigCHrome

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:05

Coke bottle shape increases the amount of air above the floor, has nothing to do with the air that's been channeled underneath the car and expanded through the diffuser.

You'd* have to be fairly hard of understanding to equate that quote with what BigChrome claimed.

*You ≠ Szoelloe.


Do you even go to autosport.com? Just yesterday they ran a story about him saying that he believes winning the championship is a very realistic goal.

Edited by BigCHrome, 08 March 2013 - 22:10.


#2919 bauss

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:18

What's your point?


if u cant figure it out, sorry

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#2920 Coops3

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:22

http://www1.skysport.../johnny-herbert

Corrected. thx.


Ah nice one, cheers. Was just about an hour ago cursing that I'd have to wait until tomorrow to see the full thing.

#2921 Coops3

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:24

wow maybe slip of the tongue

but he was talking about wins with rosberg taking some him taking some

sounds more than just the chance of mercedes winning 1 race


I think he was just talking about who would finish ahead of who.

#2922 trogggy

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:34

Do you even go to autosport.com? Just yesterday they ran a story about him saying that he believes winning the championship is a very realistic goal.

"He's been proudly stating that he'll win the WDC to anyone that will listen."

If you can't see the difference discussion won't help.

#2923 bauss

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:35

wow maybe slip of the tongue

but he was talking about wins with rosberg taking some him taking some

sounds more than just the chance of mercedes winning 1 race


there was also the part where he says he would happily take 3rd so I think he's keeping the cars close to his chest....

can't wait for FP1 in less than a week.

#2924 trogggy

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 22:35

if u cant figure it out, sorry

No worries, I accept the apology.
Now can you explain what your point is?

#2925 Masenco

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 00:11

there was also the part where he says he would happily take 3rd so I think he's keeping the cars close to his chest....

can't wait for FP1 in less than a week.


I also expect mercedes to win multiple gps this year, and would be very happy with a 3rd place in the first race

#2926 BernieEc

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 00:19

I also expect mercedes to win multiple gps this year, and would be very happy with a 3rd place in the first race


I would just be happy them making Q3. If they qualify top 5, I will lose the plot and do a back flip and come race day if they finish on the podium, am ready to give the Mrs my debit card and she can spend as she likes. Obviously she's not on this forum so my card is safe :)

#2927 Juggles

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:47

wow maybe slip of the tongue

but he was talking about wins with rosberg taking some him taking some

sounds more than just the chance of mercedes winning 1 race


I think he just meant sometimes he will beat Rosberg and sometimes Rosberg will beat him, as he clarified after making that statement.

#2928 femi

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 07:27

My understanding of a diffuser s that you need to pack in as much air as possible on the way in, and then stretch it horizontally and vertically on the way out. This creates a low pressure zone that sucks the car down.

Posted Image

I don't know if the coke bottle allows more air and therefore increases pressure on top of the diffuser, which increases the pressure differential, or the fast air is at low pressure creating a further low pressure zone.

Either way I think it is all about making the diffuser work better.

This quote suggests the latter:

http://www.f1fanatic...epods-exhausts/


Thanks to everyone that has chipped in helping my understanding of F1 car aerodynamics :up:

I see that everyone is chasing air flow from the FW, floor, around the sidepod and undercut till it finally exits the diffuser which is fair as it addresses my question. I am an electronic engineer myself but had migrated to IT a long time ago.

I was just wondering if the car designers, aerodynamics in particular actually try to design the car from the back to the front by determining the shape, direction and volume of air as it exits the diffuser and work their way forward step-by-step till they reach the FW, something like reverse engineering? or is this how it is already done? I hope I am making sense. I think there are quite a bit of fans like me looking to deepen knowledge and hence better appreciate F1 beyond fast drivers and cars. I hope I am making sense.

#2929 mattferg

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 08:54

You guys need to stop hyping up Lewis/Merc's chances. We can't be sure where anyone is come Oz and someone'll only end up disappointed. Such ridiculous things have been said the last few weeks.

Edited by MightyMoose, 09 March 2013 - 18:37.
If you want to use the term "fanboys" you're in the wrong forum, please stop it


#2930 TF110

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:12

No one knows, either way. So don't pretend you do. Hype or expecting failure is futile. Patience is all that's needed. Were only a week away from it!

#2931 mattferg

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:13

No one knows, either way. So don't pretend you do. Hype or expecting failure is futile. Patience is all that's needed. Were only a week away from it!


I completely agree :-)

#2932 Kaosoner

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:21

No one knows, either way. So don't pretend you do. Hype or expecting failure is futile. Patience is all that's needed. Were only a week away from it!

just a week from the start of the season, even tho' last year championship was decided at the very last race. I don't expect the 4 first races would give us a clear picture of the pecking order. 7 different winners in 2012...

Edited by Kaosoner, 09 March 2013 - 11:24.


#2933 BernieEc

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:22

I don't think anyone is hyping up Mercedes or Lewis's chances. Most in the forum have been realistic about their expectations from the team. The testing lap times they posted did a bit to wet up the appetite in the forum but I don't think anyone is going overboard. As with all things with LH it is more the media where the building up is coming from and even they are not that convinced about the merc based on testing alone as they would have had to close up a huge gap.

There is a bit of enthusiasm but I think it has more to do with the fact that there's a possibility they won't have as horrible a season as they had last year. The team has always said it is a transitional year and most fans expect that, anything else is a bonus. I don't think the forumers and merc supporters are any less enthusiastic than fans in other car threads.







#2934 Spoch

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 11:51

I don't think anyone is hyping up Mercedes or Lewis's chances. Most in the forum have been realistic about their expectations from the team. The testing lap times they posted did a bit to wet up the appetite in the forum but I don't think anyone is going overboard. As with all things with LH it is more the media where the building up is coming from and even they are not that convinced about the merc based on testing alone as they would have had to close up a huge gap.

There is a bit of enthusiasm but I think it has more to do with the fact that there's a possibility they won't have as horrible a season as they had last year. The team has always said it is a transitional year and most fans expect that, anything else is a bonus. I don't think the forumers and merc supporters are any less enthusiastic than fans in other car threads.

Well i had the same feeling as well but at the start of testing, LH was 20/1 behind perez, massa webber, kimi, button, alonso, vettel then it dropped to 16/1 and now 8/1. Now i know it is easy to discount but these betting houses have a way of getting behind the scene info. Again with all the praise from horner button etc, i expect him to be up there more like his 2010 season in terms of results. Simply put i dont expect merc to just make up the numbers on the grid this season. I eagerly await the start of the season:-)


#2935 BernieEc

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:05

Well i had the same feeling as well but at the start of testing, LH was 20/1 behind perez, massa webber, kimi, button, alonso, vettel then it dropped to 16/1 and now 8/1. Now i know it is easy to discount but these betting houses have a way of getting behind the scene info. Again with all the praise from horner button etc, i expect him to be up there more like his 2010 season in terms of results. Simply put i dont expect merc to just make up the numbers on the grid this season. I eagerly await the start of the season:-)


Its not that betting houses have any more inside information than anyone else (They could well do but who's to say) a lot of these odds has more to do with the bets placed by the general public. say for instance the odds on a Bothas to win the WDC in the williams is 60/1 and betting houses start receiving bets to the tune of million pounds on him everyday, am pretty sure those odds will be significantly lowered, not that the betting house has any inside info, they will just be extremely exposed in the event there is a Bothas win and in order to avoid huge payouts will reduce the odds.

I think odds has a lot to do with the amounts punters are placing on the driver rather than any inside information (that's my opinion of course)

Edited by BernieEc, 09 March 2013 - 12:05.


#2936 slmk

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:06

Lewis targets a podium in AUS...

http://www1.skysport...act-at-Mercedes

Lewis Hamilton has told Sky Sports F1 he is ready to take his new life at Mercedes "one step at a time" - and that he would settle for any place on the podium at next week's season-opening Australian GP

#2937 Szoelloe

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:13

Lewis targets a podium in AUS...

http://www1.skysport...act-at-Mercedes

Lewis Hamilton has told Sky Sports F1 he is ready to take his new life at Mercedes "one step at a time" - and that he would settle for any place on the podium at next week's season-opening Australian GP


He never said he targets podium in Melbourne. BS.


#2938 race addicted

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:32

I'm surprised people are taking what Hamilton says (in the Herbert-interview) so literally! When he says "there will be some races he will win, there will be some races I will win" - he's not talking about the top step of the podium, but of the intra team battle between him and Rosberg.

Edited by race addicted, 09 March 2013 - 12:36.


#2939 OoxLox

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:38

A couple of interesting comments from Ted and Jon Noble in the F1 show. Ted has spoken to one TP who said they couldn't have done a 20.1 no matter how light they ran, and Noble had spoken to a TP from a team that had "won races" (plural) last year who said they could do it but they'd be pushing it. Basically, if we see some good long runs on Friday I'm going to struggle to contain my optimism. Only a week until we find start finding out :clap:

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#2940 BernieEc

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:41

A couple of interesting comments from Ted and Jon Noble in the F1 show. Ted has spoken to one TP who said they couldn't have done a 20.1 no matter how light they ran, and Noble had spoken to a TP from a team that had "won races" (plural) last year who said they could do it but they'd be pushing it. Basically, if we see some good long runs on Friday I'm going to struggle to contain my optimism. Only a week until we find start finding out :clap:


Only RB, Ferrari and McLaren won "Races" last year

Williams and Lotus won one each. Although he could be referring to Lotus or Williams and mistakenly used "races" in that context. All will be revealed next weekend

Edited by BernieEc, 09 March 2013 - 12:43.


#2941 femi

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 12:55

A couple of interesting comments from Ted and Jon Noble in the F1 show. Ted has spoken to one TP who said they couldn't have done a 20.1 no matter how light they ran, and Noble had spoken to a TP from a team that had "won races" (plural) last year who said they could do it but they'd be pushing it. Basically, if we see some good long runs on Friday I'm going to struggle to contain my optimism. Only a week until we find start finding out :clap:



Can this show be watched on the net? If yes, link please

#2942 Masenco

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 13:00

A couple of interesting comments from Ted and Jon Noble in the F1 show. Ted has spoken to one TP who said they couldn't have done a 20.1 no matter how light they ran, and Noble had spoken to a TP from a team that had "won races" (plural) last year who said they could do it but they'd be pushing it. Basically, if we see some good long runs on Friday I'm going to struggle to contain my optimism. Only a week until we find start finding out :clap:


I recall lotus and ferrari already saying that they could achieve a 20.1 if they tried; though your quote does confirm that it is a really competitive time.



#2943 undersquare

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 13:05

I see no reason not to be optimistic. I'm approaching next weekend expecting anything between 1st and 5th, but if it's only 6th my world won't end. I'm thinking it's NOT last year's car and it's Melb and it's going to have LH driving it. Nico too I just feel will be more on it alongside Lewis than alongside Schumi. Bring it on :smoking:.

#2944 SR388

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 13:10

I see no reason not to be optimistic. I'm approaching next weekend expecting anything between 1st and 5th, but if it's only 6th my world won't end. I'm thinking it's NOT last year's car and it's Melb and it's going to have LH driving it. Nico too I just feel will be more on it alongside Lewis than alongside Schumi. Bring it on :smoking:.



You are a wise man!

#2945 femi

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 14:33

I am personally quite satisfied to see LH looking so happy and that the car looks good. It was a bit disturbing and sometimes painful to witness what was happening to him @ Mclaren, but marvelled at how he responded to it all with friendliness and integrity. I am looking forward to see the car confirm what a lot of people, myself included stongly suspects and hopes; to see a fast car with good tyre management capability even if it does not win but display good development potential and to see Merc track side operation bang on song.

Having said all that, I will be over the moon and will invite my friends to drinks over barbeque (even though it is not summer yet) if he takes pole and finishes on the podium. Probably shed a tear or two. Of course I will be rooting for NR as well.

Edited by femi, 09 March 2013 - 14:35.


#2946 superdelphinus

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 15:09

I wonder if Lewis is a little worried about how fast nico seems to have become?

#2947 Masenco

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 15:11

I am personally quite satisfied to see LH looking so happy and that the car looks good. It was a bit disturbing and sometimes painful to witness what was happening to him @ Mclaren, but marvelled at how he responded to it all with friendliness and integrity. I am looking forward to see the car confirm what a lot of people, myself included stongly suspects and hopes; to see a fast car with good tyre management capability even if it does not win but display good development potential and to see Merc track side operation bang on song.

Having said all that, I will be over the moon and will invite my friends to drinks over barbeque (even though it is not summer yet) if he takes pole and finishes on the podium. Probably shed a tear or two. Of course I will be rooting for NR as well.


+1 :up:


#2948 Masenco

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 15:12

I wonder if Lewis is a little worried about how fast nico seems to have become?


He'll be relishing the challenge :up:

#2949 jjcale

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 15:24

JENSON BUTTON EN MÉXICO !

1:05
JB in Mexico (promo stop on the way to Australia):
- Quite competitive
- Not the quickest at the moment, or at least around Barcelona
- Mercedes appears to be one step in front of everyone else in terms of pace.
- but Melbourne may be different.


I agree with JB but normalcy bias stops me from truly believing what a good deal of evidence says is a very real possibility ....

#2950 jrg19

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 15:26

No way this car is a step ahead of everyone, although I'm happy to be proven wrong.