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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#2951 svalgis

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 16:15

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105923
anyone sitting on a hires version of the top picture by any chance?

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#2952 SchumiBoy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 16:30

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105923
anyone sitting on a hires version of the top picture by any chance?


You can find it larger here
http://www.f1-fansit...st-1-barcelona/

Edited by SchumiBoy, 09 March 2013 - 16:30.


#2953 GAZF1nut

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:10

I recall lotus and ferrari already saying that they could achieve a 20.1 if they tried; though your quote does confirm that it is a really competitive time.

That was the 20.5, not the 20.1

#2954 MrPodium

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:16

I watched a few highlights of last season yesterday evening. For the first seven races, Mercedes seemed to have reasonably good pace. Soon after that it turned to shite.

The W04 looks very promising, but I'm not going to even attempt to pass judgement until at least a third of the season has passed and the development battle is well and truly underway.

#2955 Szoelloe

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:24

^^Yes. The first real indication of how the season can pan out will be in Barcelona. Whatever the top teams are mumbling about upgrades during the flyaways, nothing major is going to happen until Friday morning in Barcelona. Apart from Melbourne Friday morning of course. Those(possible upgrades) can be shipped with the team cargo to Melbourne.

#2956 FSLIV

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:30

^^Yes. The first real indication of how the season can pan out will be in Barcelona. Whatever the top teams are mumbling about upgrades during the flyaways, nothing major is going to happen until Friday morning in Barcelona. Apart from Melbourne Friday morning of course. Those(possible upgrades) can be shipped with the team cargo to Melbourne.


I will say that the true test of Merc will be their developement pace. Though one could argue the cars are maxed out (Red Bull) this is why Macca switched to new front end for additional development. Nico will be a bigger chanllenge for Lewis.

#2957 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:44

We've had a lot of silly smug quotes flying around this forum n beyond, seems there might be an opportunity to ridicule them much quicker than expected.

That quite a smug statement in and of itself.

#2958 Szoelloe

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:44

*I will say that the true test of Merc will be their developement pace. ** Though one could argue the cars are maxed out (Red Bull) this is why ***Macca switched to new front end for additional development. Nico will be a bigger chanllenge for Lewis.


*quite obviously. The biggest question mark over the team. Whatever the signs so far, facts are the only answers to that.
** Personally, I think that to be true, but I am really curious if I'm right on that one.
***that is a fact

Edited by Szoelloe, 09 March 2013 - 17:45.


#2959 skyform

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 18:04

I wonder if Lewis is a little worried about how fast nico seems to have become?


I think he is and should be, I expect Nico to be as fast if not faster than Lewis. Lewis is all happy now but if it happends that Nico will constantly beat Lewis or at least more times than Lewis will beat Nico, then you can expect to see similar faces from Lewis like in Melbourne 2012 at the podium ceremony.

Edited by skyform, 09 March 2013 - 18:09.


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#2960 Kvothe

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 18:09

http://www1.skysport.../johnny-herbert

Corrected. thx.


Confirms what I said, which is that it's Peter Bonnington who's his race engineer and not Jock Clear.

:smoking:

#2961 Timstr11

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 18:23

Confirms what I said, which is that it's Peter Bonnington who's his race engineer and not Jock Clear.

:smoking:

Jock Clear is his performance engineer. Same pairing as with Schumacher.
Don't underestimate the role of the performance engineer.

#2962 Kvothe

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 18:27

Jock Clear is his performance engineer. Same pairing as with Schumacher.
Don't underestimate the role of the performance engineer.


Yeah I know :smoking::

http://forums.autosp...p;#entry6141626

Edit: Thanks for the link :up:

Edited by Kvothe, 09 March 2013 - 18:29.


#2963 mlsnoopy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 19:46

I think that 5th place is a realistic expectation for Australia. Anything more will be a bonus.

#2964 svalgis

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 19:47

You can find it larger here
http://www.f1-fansit...st-1-barcelona/

thank you kindly!

#2965 kedia990

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 20:08

I think he is and should be, I expect Nico to be as fast if not faster than Lewis. Lewis is all happy now but if it happends that Nico will constantly beat Lewis or at least more times than Lewis will beat Nico, then you can expect to see similar faces from Lewis like in Melbourne 2012 at the podium ceremony.


Hamilton was more than a match for Alonso, a rookie vs. the reigning 2-time world champion, in 2007. I wouldn't be too worried. The occasional hiccup obviously can't be ruled out.

#2966 superdelphinus

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 20:44

I think that 5th place is a realistic expectation for Australia. Anything more will be a bonus.


Why is that more realistic than 9th or 1st?

#2967 superdelphinus

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 20:45

Become? Nico has always been quick in F1, always. Personally I don't think this battle is done and dusted, I do expect Lewis to come out on top when all is said and done but Nico will be more than a handful. I also think Nico is going to step up to the challenge this year, Lewis coming to the team will just invigorate him. I can't wait for it all to start, it is going to be one heck of a season!


Yeah just basing that on what Lewis said in that interview, about nico coming along a long way since he beat him in junior series

#2968 BigCHrome

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 22:15

I recall lotus and ferrari already saying that they could achieve a 20.1 if they tried; though your quote does confirm that it is a really competitive time.


If Ferrari could do a 20.1 then why didn't they? Alonso had like 5-6 cracks at it and could barely beat Hamilton's time which was on a less rubbered in track and > 5 laps of fuel onboard.

#2969 Boxerevo

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 22:29

Test is testing...

A team can run illegaly on test,right or not ?

Nobody can be 100% sure about something.

#2970 mlsnoopy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 22:30

Why is that more realistic than 9th or 1st?


Maybe because Mercedes showed strong testing form and it looks like they made a solid car, but we know how much performance they need to find, it would be idiotic to assume that they closed the whole gap.

#2971 OO7

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 22:30

Correct me Obi if I am wrong, I had noticed this too - there is a flow that comes round the sidepod, in the undercut, then goes inwards across the top of the floor. On the face of it this flow will be tripped up by the longitudinal curved strake that guides the exhaust plume.

Well, it's too obvious for F1 aero engineers not to have noticed lol so either the flows are alright - maybe it's turbulent there from the font wheels?? - or it's a temporary/test solution that will be updated for Melbourne. Be interesting to see if it changes.

Here is a poor MS Paint illustration of what I mean, I think go it however:
Posted Image
The forward part of the strake is curved inwards, allowing the light blue airflow to curl over the top of it and over the exhaust flow, into the coke bottle region and over the diffuser. It could be that the Mercedes fence provides better isolation of the different flows (especially the exhaust plume), but its length prevents the optimum influx of air over the diffuser.

BTW, previously when I stated 'it seems to me (armchair aero engineer) that Mercedes isn't entirely happy with the exhaust flow/plume from the W04.', I didn't mean this area of the car was poorly conceived, on the contrary it may work very well, however I was wondering if it was an area Mercedes believe could be improved.

#2972 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 22:48

That quite a smug statement in and of itself.


Also smug, but unless you feel sure that you will be ridiculing it soon, its smugness is irrelevant

#2973 BigCHrome

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 23:06

Maybe because Mercedes showed strong testing form and it looks like they made a solid car, but we know how much performance they need to find, it would be idiotic to assume that they closed the whole gap.


We do not.

One thing that everyone seems to disregard about this car is that they started working on it quite early, especially compared to the contenders of 2012. What they had in Brazil last year hadn't gotten any upgrades in a while, except the exhaust, where the W03 was a test bed of sorts for the W04. All of their focus was already shifted on the new car.



#2974 jjcale

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 23:13

Maybe because Mercedes showed strong testing form and it looks like they made a solid car, but we know how much performance they need to find, it would be idiotic to assume that they closed the whole gap.


... that's a pretty strong word.

#2975 klyster

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 23:21

Here is a poor MS Paint illustration of what I mean, I think go it however:


That's actually pretty good ;)

#2976 undersquare

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 23:47

Here is a poor MS Paint illustration of what I mean, I think go it however:
The forward part of the strake is curved inwards, allowing the light blue airflow to curl over the top of it and over the exhaust flow, into the coke bottle region and over the diffuser. It could be that the Mercedes fence provides better isolation of the different flows (especially the exhaust plume), but its length prevents the optimum influx of air over the diffuser.

BTW, previously when I stated 'it seems to me (armchair aero engineer) that Mercedes isn't entirely happy with the exhaust flow/plume from the W04.', I didn't mean this area of the car was poorly conceived, on the contrary it may work very well, however I was wondering if it was an area Mercedes believe could be improved.


Ah yes I see what you mean. Well they did say something about working on the exhaust istr.

I'll have to go back and look at Timstr's flovis pic again.

#2977 AMG FAN

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:14

call me delusional but i have a feeling when the Oz dust is settled,Hamilton would have 25 points in the bag :)

#2978 Neomaster121

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:15

call me delusional but i have a feeling when the Oz dust is settled,Hamilton would have 25 points in the bag :)


Maybe seems like mercedes mech grip will do them well in street circuits

#2979 AMG FAN

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 01:17

I think he is and should be, I expect Nico to be as fast if not faster than Lewis. Lewis is all happy now but if it happends that Nico will constantly beat Lewis or at least more times than Lewis will beat Nico, then you can expect to see similar faces from Lewis like in Melbourne 2012 at the podium ceremony.

i think you underestimate the speed and consistency of Lewis,there are not that many drivers that can beat him consistently....imo Nico should be more worried than Lewis should be.

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#2980 teejay

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 03:28

1 week to go - the hopes, dreams, paranoia, angst, anticipation swings into full go mode.

#2981 kedia990

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:09

call me delusional but i have a feeling when the Oz dust is settled,Hamilton would have 25 points in the bag :)


You're delusional :lol:

Kidding man, I'm hoping for the same. But thing is that Oz has such a weird track layout, can't really predict who'll do well by car characteristics alone. A lot of it comes down to the driver too (and Button seems to have driving around this track down to a science). I'd be happy with P5 in qualifying and the same or better in race. And I'd be looking out for tyre wear, hopefully they've sorted the problems.

#2982 senna da silva

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:15

Not since first when Senna signed for Lotus and then when Jacques signed for Williams have I been this excied about a driver signing for a team!
C'mon Merc!

#2983 mattferg

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:40

Not since first when Senna signed for Lotus and then when Jacques signed for Williams have I been this excied about a driver signing for a team!
C'mon Merc!


Not even Schumacher-Ferrari? :o

#2984 moorsey

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:54

Not since first when Senna signed for Lotus and then when Jacques signed for Williams have I been this excied about a driver signing for a team!
C'mon Merc!


I second that emotion :up:

#2985 femi

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 06:56

To our forum aero guys, what do you guys make of the discussion going on in W04 thread@ F1technical, it took off with this comment from FerrariPilot:

Front wings, rear wings etc don't so much concern me as much as the RB9 brake ducts do. The upper element to the RB9 brake duct just over the upper control arm pickup point MUST be copied by other teams, until then no one will touch RB9. That element is about half or more the surface area of a beam wing and no one else is running anything like it. Season is over until that is copied.
W04 may have a wild card with its mechanical grip advantage, but otherwise we and everyone else are whistling in the wind while RB9 has those mesmerizing brake ducts.


If true, it might be AN has come up with a "magic bullet". The thing is W03 spotted something like that last year, so Merc aero guys must know something about it. Maybe as some guys are arguing the W04 does not need it. I will be looking at the Merc @Aussie closely to see if the rear break ducts are spotting these "flow conditioners"

The actual quote is at about the middle of the page below and has been dominating that thread discussion hence:

http://www.f1technic...c...&start=1320

Edited by femi, 10 March 2013 - 07:05.


#2986 BigCHrome

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 07:09

It's just typical armchair expert panic. The amount of turbulence that comes from the wheel severely limits the effect of any wings in the surrounding area. I'm sure it's a nice piece that works for Red Bull, but he's making it sound like it's the next big thing like an EBD.

#2987 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 07:21

To our forum aero guys, what do you guys make of the discussion going on in W04 thread@ F1technical, it took off with this comment from FerrariPilot:



If true, it might be AN has come up with a "magic bullet". The thing is W03 spotted something like that last year, so Merc aero guys must know something about it. Maybe as some guys are arguing the W04 does not need it. I will be looking at the Merc @Aussie closely to see if the rear break ducts are spotting these "flow conditioners"

The actual quote is at about the middle of the page below and has been dominating that thread discussion hence:

http://www.f1technic...c...&start=1320


Well, as in that very discussion is said, Renault powered cars have a different rear concept. Basically the idea of the guy who found something on an RB9 after a few months that has not been copied by any of the non.renault teams, but HE thinks it should, has been shot down.


#2988 femi

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 07:24

Well, as in that very discussion is said, Renault powered cars have a different rear concept. Basically the idea of the guy who found something on an RB9 after a few months that has not been copied by any of the non.renault teams, but HE thinks it should, has been shot down.


not necessarily, you are referring to a counter argument which was in turn shot down as you put it

#2989 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 07:26

not necessarily, you are referring to a counter argument which was in turn shot down as you put it


you really shoudn't be arguing about this.


#2990 Timstr11

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:03

It's just typical armchair expert panic. The amount of turbulence that comes from the wheel severely limits the effect of any wings in the surrounding area. I'm sure it's a nice piece that works for Red Bull, but he's making it sound like it's the next big thing like an EBD.

Exactly. The spinning wheel is hugely detrimental for these small devices to produce meaningful downforce directly I think.
That's not to say all these devices around the rear wheel are not important. I think they are hugely important in conditioning the flow in that area to get the diffusor to work well.

#2991 femi

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:08

you really shoudn't be arguing about this.


If you really read what I wrote as I introduced that discussion here, you would find that I did not present my own view so there is no arguemnt on my part so do not direct such words at me. I did not even detect such arrogant response between those holding opposing views @F1technical. So pipe down a little...

#2992 femi

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:09

Exactly. The spinning wheel is hugely detrimental for these small devices to produce meaningful downforce directly I think.
That's not to say all these devices around the rear wheel are not important. I think they are hugely important in conditioning the flow in that area to get the diffusor to work well.


Now you guys are talking... :up:

#2993 femi

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 08:27

There was a post somewhere in this thread I beleve, where the poster listed the cars speeds at a certain speed trap during the last test. Apparently, RB had the lowest speed. Using that date, a poster allluded that as an indication of relative DFs of the cars. I am just wondering if there is a point when drag induced by DF is too much. Basically, my question is sin't there a point when rear DF is too much? or is it the case that the more the DF the better infinitely with regards to F1 of course?



#2994 BigCHrome

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:01

There was a post somewhere in this thread I beleve, where the poster listed the cars speeds at a certain speed trap during the last test. Apparently, RB had the lowest speed. Using that date, a poster allluded that as an indication of relative DFs of the cars. I am just wondering if there is a point when drag induced by DF is too much. Basically, my question is sin't there a point when rear DF is too much? or is it the case that the more the DF the better infinitely with regards to F1 of course?


Yes, with the Pirelli tires, there is a point where they would start loosing lap time because they can't take advantage of the extra cornering speed. The tires could not handle it.

For example in Spa, where Hamilton got the high downforce rear wing.

#2995 kedia990

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:19

Yes, with the Pirelli tires, there is a point where they would start loosing lap time because they can't take advantage of the extra cornering speed. The tires could not handle it.

For example in Spa, where Hamilton got the high downforce rear wing.


Seconded. The limit is imposed by the cornering forces the tyres can sustain. Moreover, a lot of rear DF relative to front DF would trigger understeer too. That can't be good, eh?

#2996 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:24

Yes, with the Pirelli tires, there is a point where they would start loosing lap time because they can't take advantage of the extra cornering speed. The tires could not handle it.

For example in Spa, where Hamilton got the high downforce rear wing.


Yes, but I think that is not what she was asking about. Increasing DF always increases drag. The bigger the drag, the less the straightline speed. What she is asking is, is there a point when you have increased the DF so much, that the increased drag that comes with it compromises your straightline speed to the extent that it is counteractive in terms of laptime? I think there is. On low Df circuits especially, but in theory anywhere.


#2997 superdelphinus

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:43

i think you underestimate the speed and consistency of Lewis,there are not that many drivers that can beat him consistently....imo Nico should be more worried than Lewis should be.


Nico doesn't really have anything to lose

#2998 D.M.N.

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:58

Same applies here as it does in the McLaren thread.

- Car thread -> here
- Driver vs Driver thread -> http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178838

Nico vs Lewis talk does not belong here.

#2999 femi

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:13

Yes, but I think that is not what she was asking about. Increasing DF always increases drag. The bigger the drag, the less the straightline speed. What she is asking is, is there a point when you have increased the DF so much, that the increased drag that comes with it compromises your straightline speed to the extent that it is counteractive in terms of laptime? I think there is. On low Df circuits especially, but in theory anywhere.


Thanks guys for indulging me with your responses. I suspect there are more of us that are benefitting for them.

What I have deduced is that the W04 does not necessarily have to be at RB df levels to compete with them, she just needs to be at optimum level, assuming RB is at excessive levels and I am not suggesting that as I do not know.

Is this what you guys mean by "aero effiiciency"? I have watched video clips of both cars and to me, they both looked to be equally on "rails" as you guys put it even when the W04 is pushing (judginging by laptime) and RB not as much (also looking at laptime).

I have also read everywhere that W04 has superior "mechanical grip" which to my understanding (please feel free to correct me) is a function of front car suspension / FW. If this is correct, is front DF a function of front suspension and rear DF a function of car aero?

NR has consistently said that the W04 is well balanced, to me it sounds like breaking stability, corner entry and exit afterall these are the zones where times are gained and lost in F1. The question is how can a F1 car be well balanced and not so hot in DF?

I am relying on you guys to make sense of my questions and provide easy to understand answers :)

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#3000 itsademo

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 11:41

To our forum aero guys, what do you guys make of the discussion going on in W04 thread@ F1technical, it took off with this comment from FerrariPilot:



If true, it might be AN has come up with a "magic bullet". The thing is W03 spotted something like that last year, so Merc aero guys must know something about it. Maybe as some guys are arguing the W04 does not need it. I will be looking at the Merc @Aussie closely to see if the rear break ducts are spotting these "flow conditioners"

The actual quote is at about the middle of the page below and has been dominating that thread discussion hence:

http://www.f1technic...c...&start=1320

One thing we can be certain of is if an armchair expert has seen them then i am certain all the teams will have and propably simulated them in their CFD systems (just like they do with many other parts the other teams try out during testing).
It may well be something that adds if you design your whole backend round it or it may be something their backend NEEDS, or as its testing just something that was tried out to see if it did what they hoped and may never be seen again, or indeed it could be "A Newey Special"
Australia will answer some of those questions till then its all speculation.