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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#3151 Pingu Pi

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 23:33

There is obviously something I am still not getting with all the tyre deg argument. So let me get this, last season, Merc were notorious for high tyre wear in hot races and the reason they won in China was cos of the cool weather right? Ok so fast forward to the test this year in Barcelona and according to JA on F1 (http://www.jamesalle...celona-f1-test/) the tyre deg on the merc is similar to that of the ferrari. So if merc wasn't worse off from other teams in cold barcelona, then why would it be in hotter weather? Logically if Merc was tyre deg was worse than other teams in Barcelona then it gives room for fear of a higher deg rate in hotter races but this wasn't the case? I know my argument might be bollocks but apart from last season's stats, I'd like to know what else is informing the suspicion of high tyre deg. If we are going by the logic of last season then why even bother watching Oz this weekend



Because it's a different car....?


And Tyres...

Nobody knows anything until the season kicks off, and if it's anything like last year even more unlikely team's will know how these tyres work in different conditions until Europe.

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#3152 maverick69

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 23:38

Bloody hell this is all getting a bit annoying..... and thank God the first race is upon us.

So what if people get excited and dare to make bold predictions of success..... and so what if people want to remain down in the dumps...... But please quit all the "we don't know" stuff etc - then berate someone for having an opinion..... on a forum..... whilst one conveniently sits on the fence.

Lead..... Follow..... or get the feck out of the way.

Edited by maverick69, 12 March 2013 - 23:39.


#3153 Pingu Pi

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:14

The sensible and reasonable decision is to sit on the fence, I have hopes for the season, but they're just that, i have no prediction in regards to the Mercedes, because that's absolutely impossible right now. Nobody knows!

And those saying I think this, and that, either side of the fence, aren't making predictions, they're making wild guesses, so later in the year, their 'flip the three way coin' attitude can get them an 'I told you so' post.

#3154 maverick69

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:20

The sensible and reasonable decision is to sit on the fence, I have hopes for the season, but they're just that, i have no prediction in regards to the Mercedes, because that's absolutely impossible right now. Nobody knows!

And those saying I think this, and that, either side of the fence, aren't making predictions, they're making wild guesses, so later in the year, their 'flip the three way coin' attitude can get them an 'I told you so' post.


So what's the point of posting?

"We don't know" is completely one-dimensional - and ultimately snuffing out any debate.

And are they making wild guesses?

#3155 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:35

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet... it seems the Merc will be a very good overtaking and defending car, which will be good for us Hamilton fans. How did I come to this conclusion?
1. Just generally faster than last year so they'll be no repeats of Spa 2011 (I know that was *two* years ago) where the leaders will just fly past us one by one
2. Great traction out of the slow corners allowing us to get a good slingshot for overtaking but also meaning the chasing car will have to make up a large deficit when in DRS zone or any potential passing area
3. Great engine and therefore top speed.

Is this too simplistic? Everyone is slightly worried about race pace it seems but is it possible that we may be able to defend quite well if we come under pressure in the races from faster cars?

#3156 Pingu Pi

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:37

So what's the point of posting?

"We don't know" is completely one-dimensional - and ultimately snuffing out any debate.

And are they making wild guesses?


Yes of course they are making guesses, the teams have already said it will be a lottery to start with like last year, we don't know how the tires will react to certain temperatures and track types and that the big teams will likely get a grip on this first as they did last year and begin to pull away in Europe.

The reasonable thought is, hope for a good start, Australia is no barometer for a season, then we see how the team has really come along when we start reacting to the data from the likes of Malaysia and begin really developing the car. If after the European upgrades Mercedes haven't dropped off the pack, or have at least maintained the same gap to the front runner, assuming they start there. Then that's much better for them in comparison to previous seasons, it means they can develop at the same pace.

#3157 kodandaram

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:39

Melbourne is hardly an indicator of real performance. Didn't the BAR-Honda's show up at the sharp end of the grid in 2003 ?

I reckon Melbourne and the early races are just the kind of opportunity teams like Mercedes, Williams, Lotus and Sauber would be looking at to sneak in a win(Merc) or at least a few podiums.

There will be a stage till mid-season or so, where the driver (Lewis) might be able to pull the car around beyond its limits - when the freshness and enthusiasm is still there. Or if there is something to fight for in the points table (like Alonso and Ferrari did in the last 3 years). But if they don't pickup pace by mid season, Lewis will definitely lose motivation.

Driving a bad car for a long enough time can have an effect on everybody. See Rubens,Villeneuve, Schumacher etc.

#3158 maverick69

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:23

Bob Bell on the tyres:

"Although it didn't show it on track last year - and you could spend a day debating why that was - we did get a lot of understanding during the course of last year with the tyres and what was needed to do to manage them," said Bell.

"It didn't reflect on the performance but that may be for different reasons. But it did mean that we entered this season with a pretty firm understanding of what we needed to do to address the issues and hopefully we now proved that we got that right over the winter.

"So we go to this season in a much better shape, our eyes much more open to what we need to do with these tyres."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105985

#3159 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:04

You know what they say, you learn more from your failures, 3 years should suffice, than you do from your successes.

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#3160 Zoetrope

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:45

As a former worker in the industry, I can confirm this to be true.


They win in the long run, this should be obvious even for a kid. But you are not doomed to lose either. Of course there is no algorithm to beat the bet-house, even if are betting wise and careful, but that doesn't mean you can't come on top over a whole season.

It's always fun to bet some cash on your favorite driver, makes the race more exciting :)

#3161 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:47

Posts deleted.

This thread is about the W04. It is not about betting, or even about the odds of Lewis or Rosberg winning. There are other threads for that, so please use them. It is also not about fans 'crying'. That post was deleted, no thanks to the many who chose to reply instead of reporting.

#3162 ZooL

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 13:12

The sensible and reasonable decision is to sit on the fence, I have hopes for the season, but they're just that, i have no prediction in regards to the Mercedes, because that's absolutely impossible right now. Nobody knows!

And those saying I think this, and that, either side of the fence, aren't making predictions, they're making wild guesses, so later in the year, their 'flip the three way coin' attitude can get them an 'I told you so' post.

You should probably stick to the news channels with the cold hard facts...

Like Hamilton said in winter testing, I'm too ready for the W04 not to be a genuine WDC challenging car, and ready for P15.
Hamilton too said this year he's ready for it to be a right off. 2014 is when it really starts expectations wise.
Race wins in the W04 are just an added bonus, he never signed up last summer expecting to win multiple races this year.

#3163 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 16:22

You should probably stick to the news channels with the cold hard facts...

Like Hamilton said in winter testing, I'm too ready for the W04 not to be a genuine WDC challenging car, and ready for P15.
Hamilton too said this year he's ready for it to be a right off. 2014 is when it really starts expectations wise.

Race wins in the W04 are just an added bonus, he never signed up last summer expecting to win multiple races this year.


Didn't he say those things before the car had hit the track?

#3164 CHIUNDA

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 16:44

Didn't he say those things before the car had hit the track?


Has he said any different since? Wasn't he accused of managing expectations soon after he set that fast lap a week or so back?

#3165 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:29

Has he said any different since? Wasn't he accused of managing expectations soon after he set that fast lap a week or so back?


Not sure what he has said, but I wouldn't expect him to make any wild predictions.

#3166 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:56

Has he said any different since? Wasn't he accused of managing expectations soon after he set that fast lap a week or so back?

In the BBC F1 preview article by A.Benson, he said "Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"

#3167 study

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 18:01

In the BBC F1 preview article by A.Benson, he said "Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"


erm, I'd feel more comfortable if I was certain those were exact words and not a Benson made line about how he thinks lewis is thinking.

#3168 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 18:20

erm, I'd feel more comfortable if I was certain those were exact words and not a Benson made line about how he thinks lewis is thinking.

"He said at the conclusion of testing?"

#3169 ZooL

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 21:24

Didn't he say those things before the car had hit the track?

They haven't hit the track yet (its only testing and others haven't shown hteir hands)

In the BBC F1 preview article by A.Benson, he said "Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"

Don't trust Benson at all, the guy gets castrated in the comments section of his own articles because they are so 1 sided. Benson is the worst F1 journo I've ever come across.

#3170 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:06

They haven't hit the track yet (its only testing and others haven't shown hteir hands)


Don't trust Benson at all, the guy gets castrated in the comments section of his own articles because they are so 1 sided. Benson is the worst F1 journo I've ever come across.


They have hit the track in testing, and just because we don't know how good the cars are you can be damn sure the drivers know whether they have a dud or not. It may not be a championship winning car, but could well exceed the expectations he had before driving it.


#3171 Markn93

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:15

Been looking over some pics from last couple of days of testing and something that has stood out is how shrink-wrapped the engine cover is, most teams have a little bulge but the Merc's has almost nothing to it, http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_1720.jpg. Not sure what the benefits necessarily are, less drag I assume?

Other cars from similar angle for comparison:
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2221.jpg - FI
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2196.jpg - Sauber
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2059.jpg - RB
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2012.jpg - Macca

#3172 robefc

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:17

erm, I'd feel more comfortable if I was certain those were exact words and not a Benson made line about how he thinks lewis is thinking.


They are the words he used

#3173 robefc

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:19

Bob Bell on the tyres:

"Although it didn't show it on track last year - and you could spend a day debating why that was - we did get a lot of understanding during the course of last year with the tyres and what was needed to do to manage them," said Bell.

"It didn't reflect on the performance but that may be for different reasons. But it did mean that we entered this season with a pretty firm understanding of what we needed to do to address the issues and hopefully we now proved that we got that right over the winter.

"So we go to this season in a much better shape, our eyes much more open to what we need to do with these tyres."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105985


Lets just hope it does show on track this year :D



#3174 teejay

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:44

Sms from my mate.

"woke up to the sound of F1 cars revving this morning"

Its so close I can taste it!

Excited

#3175 pit5bul

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:33

yeah ill be there on Saturday... cant wait... unfortunately the sound doesn't travel all the way to Cheltenham where i live , BTW my wife reckons Alonso was in TGI friday on Chapel street this morning !!

#3176 Maustinsj

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:33

yeah ill be there on Saturday... cant wait... unfortunately the sound doesn't travel all the way to Cheltenham where i live , BTW my wife reckons Alonso was in TGI friday on Chapel street this morning !!


I take it you don't mean Cheltenham in Gloucestershire then. I guess you would be waking up to the sound of drunken Irish punters if you did!

Edited by Maustinsj, 14 March 2013 - 07:38.


#3177 amppatel

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:05

I haven't seen any pics of the Merc yet :mad:
All other cars (even the red bull) have been spotted...

Edited by amppatel, 14 March 2013 - 08:06.


#3178 Markn93

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:13

"First people were talking us down and saying we were going to do terrible and now all of a sudden they've changed their opinions," an amused Hamilton retorted to Sky Sports News. "People are all over the place!"

http://www1.skysport...ove-to-Mercedes

Clearly Lewis has been following this thread :p

#3179 BernieEc

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:19

"First people were talking us down and saying we were going to do terrible and now all of a sudden they've changed their opinions," an amused Hamilton retorted to Sky Sports News. "People are all over the place!"

http://www1.skysport...ove-to-Mercedes

Clearly Lewis has been following this thread :p

Or just following the indecisive and emotional roller coaster known as Gary Anderson :)

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#3180 SmokeScreen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:34

They are the words he used

They are not the COMPLETE exact words he used because context has been reworked into a different meaning and we are have gone into the realms of 2+2 = 22 ½

"Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"



what Lewis said begins & ends ...

'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will'

-Lewis was referring to race wins not championship when he responded to the question posed to him ..

he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing" - this last part being the only fact Benson has added in that particular piece

Benson then rebranded it to the following ..

"Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship

. possibly cobbled together from GA’s change of opinion and basted with the unique “special needs” slant he stamps on any&all information that comes through him.

#3181 TF110

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:47

Doesn't winning races gives you a chance at winning the championship? :wave:

#3182 Kvothe

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:53

Doesn't winning races gives you a chance at winning the championship? :wave:


You're going to write that, after last year?


#3183 Markn93

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:53

http://www.auto-moto...rk-6784330.html

#3184 Markn93

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:04

Under the skin pic - http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.co...AiV9J.jpg:large - Looks like they're going with the monkey seat this weekend, gills by the drivers head too by the looks of it.

Edited by Markn93, 14 March 2013 - 09:27.


#3185 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:32

Did they run gills in that place here last year?

#3186 mlsnoopy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:33

http://www.auto-moto...rk-6784330.html


Interesting, hope it works on every track.

#3187 SmokeScreen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:45

Doesn't winning races gives you a chance at winning the championship? :wave:

for sure but consider Vettel 2012= 281 points (correct me if wrong)
2nd place in all 20 races last season would have net -360?

:)
.......
Actually my point was about Benson and the need to handle ALL his articles with care ALL regardless of pro or anti.

#3188 Timstr11

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:06

http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg
Helmholz resonator for the first time.

Edited by Timstr11, 14 March 2013 - 10:07.


#3189 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:09

http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg
Helmholz resonator for the first time.


What? And what is "Fric", and what trick might that/it perform?

#3190 mgs315

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:14

What? And what is "Fric", and what trick might that/it perform?


That perpendicular tube on the exhaust. Helps with power delivery?

My German is non existent, anyone fancy condensing that report down into a few English sentences? Pleease?

#3191 Timstr11

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:17

What? And what is "Fric", and what trick might that/it perform?

You can read more about the Helmholtz resonator (chamber extending from the exhaust collector) at F1Technical.

The so called fric suspension is a passive form of active suspension by hydraulically cross-linking all four wheels.
Difficult to get right because it's passive.

Edited by Timstr11, 14 March 2013 - 10:18.


#3192 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:18

I thought it was something to do with the exhaust ("resonator" gave that away). A rough translation would be nice, yes :)

edit - thanks, Timstr. Sounds very complex, but great if it pays off. As ever the question about weight-penalty comes up, even if a couple(eight?) of hydraulic tubes and cylinders (four?) isn't too much.

Edited by race addicted, 14 March 2013 - 10:21.


#3193 Wingnut

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:57

The so called fric suspension is a passive form of active suspension by hydraulically cross-linking all four wheels.
Difficult to get right because it's passive.


I wonder if that's why the suspension looks so soft in some of the photos?


#3194 ZooL

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:03

They have hit the track in testing, and just because we don't know how good the cars are you can be damn sure the drivers know whether they have a dud or not. It may not be a championship winning car, but could well exceed the expectations he had before driving it.

It wasn't going to be that hard to exceed his P15 expectation...

#3195 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:04

I would think they would want to use hydraulic pressure to stiffen the car, prevent roll in the fast, sweeping corners? That's asking a lot of the tires though, so I'm not sure.

#3196 JensonWDC

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:05

like Matt Morris explains, with days and hundreds of laps of testing it´s possible to get the setup right with that kind of suspension.
It´s a different thing to be spot on at the race weekend. This is the story of the last 2,5 years.

#3197 undersquare

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:13

I would think they would want to use hydraulic pressure to stiffen the car, prevent roll in the fast, sweeping corners? That's asking a lot of the tires though, so I'm not sure.


It might help the tyres, perhaps. I remember the BMW touring cars having something a bit trick on the rear suspension to take out the camber at the start, for traction. The more control they can exert over weight transfer, dive and squat, roll, the better, in principle. I would love to know what they've done. And how is 'passive' defined???

#3198 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:19

Yeah, how can this be a passive system? Is it activated by the natural weight transfer then?

A dead-stiff car would be very hard on it's tires in high speed turns btw, as it would be less predictable when you pass the point where the tires can't take it.

Edited by race addicted, 14 March 2013 - 11:20.


#3199 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:33

Yeah, how can this be a passive system? Is it activated by the natural weight transfer then?

A dead-stiff car would be very hard on it's tires in high speed turns btw, as it would be less predictable when you pass the point where the tires can't take it.


That's exactly how it works. Not sure what you mean though with the stiffness.

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#3200 jrg19

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:34

http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg
Helmholz resonator for the first time.


Glad to see that finally, something RedBull and Ferrari had for most of last season.