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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#3151 maverick69

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:20

The sensible and reasonable decision is to sit on the fence, I have hopes for the season, but they're just that, i have no prediction in regards to the Mercedes, because that's absolutely impossible right now. Nobody knows!

And those saying I think this, and that, either side of the fence, aren't making predictions, they're making wild guesses, so later in the year, their 'flip the three way coin' attitude can get them an 'I told you so' post.


So what's the point of posting?

"We don't know" is completely one-dimensional - and ultimately snuffing out any debate.

And are they making wild guesses?

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#3152 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:35

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet... it seems the Merc will be a very good overtaking and defending car, which will be good for us Hamilton fans. How did I come to this conclusion?
1. Just generally faster than last year so they'll be no repeats of Spa 2011 (I know that was *two* years ago) where the leaders will just fly past us one by one
2. Great traction out of the slow corners allowing us to get a good slingshot for overtaking but also meaning the chasing car will have to make up a large deficit when in DRS zone or any potential passing area
3. Great engine and therefore top speed.

Is this too simplistic? Everyone is slightly worried about race pace it seems but is it possible that we may be able to defend quite well if we come under pressure in the races from faster cars?

#3153 Pingu Pi

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 00:37

So what's the point of posting?

"We don't know" is completely one-dimensional - and ultimately snuffing out any debate.

And are they making wild guesses?


Yes of course they are making guesses, the teams have already said it will be a lottery to start with like last year, we don't know how the tires will react to certain temperatures and track types and that the big teams will likely get a grip on this first as they did last year and begin to pull away in Europe.

The reasonable thought is, hope for a good start, Australia is no barometer for a season, then we see how the team has really come along when we start reacting to the data from the likes of Malaysia and begin really developing the car. If after the European upgrades Mercedes haven't dropped off the pack, or have at least maintained the same gap to the front runner, assuming they start there. Then that's much better for them in comparison to previous seasons, it means they can develop at the same pace.

#3154 kodandaram

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 03:39

Melbourne is hardly an indicator of real performance. Didn't the BAR-Honda's show up at the sharp end of the grid in 2003 ?

I reckon Melbourne and the early races are just the kind of opportunity teams like Mercedes, Williams, Lotus and Sauber would be looking at to sneak in a win(Merc) or at least a few podiums.

There will be a stage till mid-season or so, where the driver (Lewis) might be able to pull the car around beyond its limits - when the freshness and enthusiasm is still there. Or if there is something to fight for in the points table (like Alonso and Ferrari did in the last 3 years). But if they don't pickup pace by mid season, Lewis will definitely lose motivation.

Driving a bad car for a long enough time can have an effect on everybody. See Rubens,Villeneuve, Schumacher etc.

#3155 maverick69

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:23

Bob Bell on the tyres:

"Although it didn't show it on track last year - and you could spend a day debating why that was - we did get a lot of understanding during the course of last year with the tyres and what was needed to do to manage them," said Bell.

"It didn't reflect on the performance but that may be for different reasons. But it did mean that we entered this season with a pretty firm understanding of what we needed to do to address the issues and hopefully we now proved that we got that right over the winter.

"So we go to this season in a much better shape, our eyes much more open to what we need to do with these tyres."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105985

#3156 DutchCruijff

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:04

You know what they say, you learn more from your failures, 3 years should suffice, than you do from your successes.

#3157 Zoetrope

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:45

As a former worker in the industry, I can confirm this to be true.


They win in the long run, this should be obvious even for a kid. But you are not doomed to lose either. Of course there is no algorithm to beat the bet-house, even if are betting wise and careful, but that doesn't mean you can't come on top over a whole season.

It's always fun to bet some cash on your favorite driver, makes the race more exciting :)

#3158 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 12:47

Posts deleted.

This thread is about the W04. It is not about betting, or even about the odds of Lewis or Rosberg winning. There are other threads for that, so please use them. It is also not about fans 'crying'. That post was deleted, no thanks to the many who chose to reply instead of reporting.

#3159 ZooL

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 13:12

The sensible and reasonable decision is to sit on the fence, I have hopes for the season, but they're just that, i have no prediction in regards to the Mercedes, because that's absolutely impossible right now. Nobody knows!

And those saying I think this, and that, either side of the fence, aren't making predictions, they're making wild guesses, so later in the year, their 'flip the three way coin' attitude can get them an 'I told you so' post.

You should probably stick to the news channels with the cold hard facts...

Like Hamilton said in winter testing, I'm too ready for the W04 not to be a genuine WDC challenging car, and ready for P15.
Hamilton too said this year he's ready for it to be a right off. 2014 is when it really starts expectations wise.
Race wins in the W04 are just an added bonus, he never signed up last summer expecting to win multiple races this year.

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#3160 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 16:22

You should probably stick to the news channels with the cold hard facts...

Like Hamilton said in winter testing, I'm too ready for the W04 not to be a genuine WDC challenging car, and ready for P15.
Hamilton too said this year he's ready for it to be a right off. 2014 is when it really starts expectations wise.

Race wins in the W04 are just an added bonus, he never signed up last summer expecting to win multiple races this year.


Didn't he say those things before the car had hit the track?

#3161 CHIUNDA

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 16:44

Didn't he say those things before the car had hit the track?


Has he said any different since? Wasn't he accused of managing expectations soon after he set that fast lap a week or so back?

#3162 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:29

Has he said any different since? Wasn't he accused of managing expectations soon after he set that fast lap a week or so back?


Not sure what he has said, but I wouldn't expect him to make any wild predictions.

#3163 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 17:56

Has he said any different since? Wasn't he accused of managing expectations soon after he set that fast lap a week or so back?

In the BBC F1 preview article by A.Benson, he said "Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"

#3164 study

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 18:01

In the BBC F1 preview article by A.Benson, he said "Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"


erm, I'd feel more comfortable if I was certain those were exact words and not a Benson made line about how he thinks lewis is thinking.

#3165 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 18:20

erm, I'd feel more comfortable if I was certain those were exact words and not a Benson made line about how he thinks lewis is thinking.

"He said at the conclusion of testing?"

#3166 ZooL

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 21:24

Didn't he say those things before the car had hit the track?

They haven't hit the track yet (its only testing and others haven't shown hteir hands)

In the BBC F1 preview article by A.Benson, he said "Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"

Don't trust Benson at all, the guy gets castrated in the comments section of his own articles because they are so 1 sided. Benson is the worst F1 journo I've ever come across.

#3167 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:06

They haven't hit the track yet (its only testing and others haven't shown hteir hands)


Don't trust Benson at all, the guy gets castrated in the comments section of his own articles because they are so 1 sided. Benson is the worst F1 journo I've ever come across.


They have hit the track in testing, and just because we don't know how good the cars are you can be damn sure the drivers know whether they have a dud or not. It may not be a championship winning car, but could well exceed the expectations he had before driving it.


#3168 Markn93

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:15

Been looking over some pics from last couple of days of testing and something that has stood out is how shrink-wrapped the engine cover is, most teams have a little bulge but the Merc's has almost nothing to it, http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_1720.jpg. Not sure what the benefits necessarily are, less drag I assume?

Other cars from similar angle for comparison:
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2221.jpg - FI
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2196.jpg - Sauber
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2059.jpg - RB
http://www.f1fanatic...03/IMG_2012.jpg - Macca

#3169 robefc

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:17

erm, I'd feel more comfortable if I was certain those were exact words and not a Benson made line about how he thinks lewis is thinking.


They are the words he used

#3170 robefc

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 23:19

Bob Bell on the tyres:

"Although it didn't show it on track last year - and you could spend a day debating why that was - we did get a lot of understanding during the course of last year with the tyres and what was needed to do to manage them," said Bell.

"It didn't reflect on the performance but that may be for different reasons. But it did mean that we entered this season with a pretty firm understanding of what we needed to do to address the issues and hopefully we now proved that we got that right over the winter.

"So we go to this season in a much better shape, our eyes much more open to what we need to do with these tyres."


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105985


Lets just hope it does show on track this year :D



#3171 teejay

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:44

Sms from my mate.

"woke up to the sound of F1 cars revving this morning"

Its so close I can taste it!

Excited

#3172 pit5bul

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 04:33

yeah ill be there on Saturday... cant wait... unfortunately the sound doesn't travel all the way to Cheltenham where i live , BTW my wife reckons Alonso was in TGI friday on Chapel street this morning !!

#3173 Maustinsj

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:33

yeah ill be there on Saturday... cant wait... unfortunately the sound doesn't travel all the way to Cheltenham where i live , BTW my wife reckons Alonso was in TGI friday on Chapel street this morning !!


I take it you don't mean Cheltenham in Gloucestershire then. I guess you would be waking up to the sound of drunken Irish punters if you did!

Edited by Maustinsj, 14 March 2013 - 07:38.


#3174 amppatel

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:05

I haven't seen any pics of the Merc yet :mad:
All other cars (even the red bull) have been spotted...

Edited by amppatel, 14 March 2013 - 08:06.


#3175 Markn93

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:13

"First people were talking us down and saying we were going to do terrible and now all of a sudden they've changed their opinions," an amused Hamilton retorted to Sky Sports News. "People are all over the place!"

http://www1.skysport...ove-to-Mercedes

Clearly Lewis has been following this thread :p

#3176 BernieEc

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:19

"First people were talking us down and saying we were going to do terrible and now all of a sudden they've changed their opinions," an amused Hamilton retorted to Sky Sports News. "People are all over the place!"

http://www1.skysport...ove-to-Mercedes

Clearly Lewis has been following this thread :p

Or just following the indecisive and emotional roller coaster known as Gary Anderson :)

#3177 SmokeScreen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:34

They are the words he used

They are not the COMPLETE exact words he used because context has been reworked into a different meaning and we are have gone into the realms of 2+2 = 22 ½

"Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship 'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will' he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing"



what Lewis said begins & ends ...

'It's not no chance' but its not 'definitely we will'

-Lewis was referring to race wins not championship when he responded to the question posed to him ..

he said at the conclusion of Winter Testing" - this last part being the only fact Benson has added in that particular piece

Benson then rebranded it to the following ..

"Hamilton is now daring to entertain the prospect of winning a championship

. possibly cobbled together from GA’s change of opinion and basted with the unique “special needs” slant he stamps on any&all information that comes through him.

#3178 TF110

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:47

Doesn't winning races gives you a chance at winning the championship? :wave:

#3179 Kvothe

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:53

Doesn't winning races gives you a chance at winning the championship? :wave:


You're going to write that, after last year?


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#3180 Markn93

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 08:53

http://www.auto-moto...rk-6784330.html

#3181 Markn93

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:04

Under the skin pic - http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.co...AiV9J.jpg:large - Looks like they're going with the monkey seat this weekend, gills by the drivers head too by the looks of it.

Edited by Markn93, 14 March 2013 - 09:27.


#3182 MortenF1

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:32

Did they run gills in that place here last year?

#3183 mlsnoopy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:33

http://www.auto-moto...rk-6784330.html


Interesting, hope it works on every track.

#3184 SmokeScreen

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 09:45

Doesn't winning races gives you a chance at winning the championship? :wave:

for sure but consider Vettel 2012= 281 points (correct me if wrong)
2nd place in all 20 races last season would have net -360?

:)
.......
Actually my point was about Benson and the need to handle ALL his articles with care ALL regardless of pro or anti.

#3185 Timstr11

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:06

http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg
Helmholz resonator for the first time.

Edited by Timstr11, 14 March 2013 - 10:07.


#3186 MortenF1

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:09

http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg
Helmholz resonator for the first time.


What? And what is "Fric", and what trick might that/it perform?

#3187 mgs315

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:14

What? And what is "Fric", and what trick might that/it perform?


That perpendicular tube on the exhaust. Helps with power delivery?

My German is non existent, anyone fancy condensing that report down into a few English sentences? Pleease?

#3188 Timstr11

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:17

What? And what is "Fric", and what trick might that/it perform?

You can read more about the Helmholtz resonator (chamber extending from the exhaust collector) at F1Technical.

The so called fric suspension is a passive form of active suspension by hydraulically cross-linking all four wheels.
Difficult to get right because it's passive.

Edited by Timstr11, 14 March 2013 - 10:18.


#3189 MortenF1

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:18

I thought it was something to do with the exhaust ("resonator" gave that away). A rough translation would be nice, yes :)

edit - thanks, Timstr. Sounds very complex, but great if it pays off. As ever the question about weight-penalty comes up, even if a couple(eight?) of hydraulic tubes and cylinders (four?) isn't too much.

Edited by race addicted, 14 March 2013 - 10:21.


#3190 Wingnut

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 10:57

The so called fric suspension is a passive form of active suspension by hydraulically cross-linking all four wheels.
Difficult to get right because it's passive.


I wonder if that's why the suspension looks so soft in some of the photos?


#3191 ZooL

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:03

They have hit the track in testing, and just because we don't know how good the cars are you can be damn sure the drivers know whether they have a dud or not. It may not be a championship winning car, but could well exceed the expectations he had before driving it.

It wasn't going to be that hard to exceed his P15 expectation...

#3192 MortenF1

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:04

I would think they would want to use hydraulic pressure to stiffen the car, prevent roll in the fast, sweeping corners? That's asking a lot of the tires though, so I'm not sure.

#3193 JensonWDC

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:05

like Matt Morris explains, with days and hundreds of laps of testing it´s possible to get the setup right with that kind of suspension.
It´s a different thing to be spot on at the race weekend. This is the story of the last 2,5 years.

#3194 undersquare

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:13

I would think they would want to use hydraulic pressure to stiffen the car, prevent roll in the fast, sweeping corners? That's asking a lot of the tires though, so I'm not sure.


It might help the tyres, perhaps. I remember the BMW touring cars having something a bit trick on the rear suspension to take out the camber at the start, for traction. The more control they can exert over weight transfer, dive and squat, roll, the better, in principle. I would love to know what they've done. And how is 'passive' defined???

#3195 MortenF1

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:19

Yeah, how can this be a passive system? Is it activated by the natural weight transfer then?

A dead-stiff car would be very hard on it's tires in high speed turns btw, as it would be less predictable when you pass the point where the tires can't take it.

Edited by race addicted, 14 March 2013 - 11:20.


#3196 Szoelloe

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:33

Yeah, how can this be a passive system? Is it activated by the natural weight transfer then?

A dead-stiff car would be very hard on it's tires in high speed turns btw, as it would be less predictable when you pass the point where the tires can't take it.


That's exactly how it works. Not sure what you mean though with the stiffness.

#3197 jrg19

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:34

http://img4.auto-mot...3617-669240.jpg
Helmholz resonator for the first time.


Glad to see that finally, something RedBull and Ferrari had for most of last season.

#3198 MortenF1

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:37

That's exactly how it works. Not sure what you mean though with the stiffness.


A rigidly stiff car forces the tyre to absorb all the energy, and if there is no "suspension roll" the sideways energy put through the tyre will be massive.

#3199 mlsnoopy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:47

So according to AMUS mercedes could be 1s faster than the McLaren

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#3200 surbjits

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:48

So according to AMUS mercedes could be 1s faster than the McLaren


I will throw my Omega out the window if that happens to be true.