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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#3751 DutchCruijff

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:45

Such optimism. A few more retirements, a few more crappy strategy calls and dire development over the course of the season will see that wane.

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#3752 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:46

Things we should learn from today:

-Race pace is far more important than qualy pace
-Mirror other teams strategies/don't try and be too clever
-The car is good and doesn't eat it's tyres (it's just no Lotus)


Rosberg wasn't too happy with the car; slidding, graining etc.
There are lessons which I am sure Merc would take away from this race. They were so slow on the straights. Wet setup?

#3753 surbjits

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:46

Welcome to reality, chaps.

Retirement? Check. Falling back after Quali? Check. Tyres out of sorts? Check. Dodgy strategy? Check.


Very good :kiss:

#3754 slmk

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:48

Rosberg wasn't too happy with the car; slidding, graining etc.
There are lessons which I am sure Merc would take away from this race. They were so slow on the straights. Wet setup?


Don't know but HAM didn't show up on the top 5 speed trap. Did they give him a too long 7th gear?

Also, it just seems overall they don't get enough grip from the tyres, which might suggest a lack of downforce.

#3755 JensonWDC

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:49

Malaysia will be the real test. hot temperature and fast corners. Can´t see them touching Ferrari, Lotus and RBR there tbh

#3756 rileyl

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:50

Very good result, was always going to go backwards.

Shame nico couldn't finish the race too for some good points.


I hope for a podium, however, just no chance! I think the team try to do a 2 stop race but the car fail. However, I have a feeling that the car's been set-up more towards to wet by the thick rear wing.

#3757 CHIUNDA

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:50

Just wondering whether Mercedes would have raced Massa if they would have gone for a three stopper right from the off. It looked racey against Webber's Red Bull so at least the car is not too far away from the Ferrari and Energy Drink maker. But Lotus ... wow! Class of one.

#3758 MaxisOne

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:51

I kept warning people about the hype ... been closely watching this team far too long to hype the team based on testing and quali pace.. They have always been decent when the tanks are empty.. They always get murdered in the race. However i think they have massively improved in tyre management since last season... they just need pace and better starts.

They are on the right path. That's all i can ask from the team at this point.

#3759 Markn93

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:52

Don't know but HAM didn't show up on the top 5 speed trap. Did they give him a too long 7th gear?

Also, it just seems overall they don't get enough grip from the tyres, which might suggest a lack of downforce.

No one thought that after quali. Let's wait to see the status quo in 'normal' conditions. Malaysia might be the first indication of it.

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#3760 baddog

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:53

Same as last year then. Oh well.

#3761 race addicted

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:53

Feels amazing that fifth is slightly dissapointing, so overall, positive signs from all at AMG Mercedes! Would they have been closer had they gone for three stops from the off? 45.5 seconds down at the flag.

Edited by race addicted, 17 March 2013 - 07:54.


#3762 choyothe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:54

Exactly. This has to be a cause for worry. Did the tyres take longer to warm up?

They said they were going to bring parts to Malaysia, I think they are indeed lacking downforce to Ferrari/Lotus/RBR.


I thought they just took it much easier than the others in the opening laps, as shown by both being able to stretch out the first stint so long.

#3763 molpid

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:54

-very good tyre management on heavy fuel load but shity later on
- race pace seemed to be kinda equal [perhaps hamilton a tad quicker, but most of the time they had a ~5 sec difference]

#3764 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:59

Don't know but HAM didn't show up on the top 5 speed trap. Did they give him a too long 7th gear?

Also, it just seems overall they don't get enough grip from the tyres, which might suggest a lack of downforce.


Grip was an issue, NR confirmed that. He described the experience as "strange".
I am taking a lot of postitives away though. I think the team tried to play it safe, whatever that means.

LH was able to display good pace towards the end, he very easily kept Webber behind in a straight fight and was catching Massa fast but on heavy fuel, it was a different story which might be due to setup - trying to preserve tyres. They were able to go long on the SS than most.

#3765 Coral

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:59

Oh, so much doom and gloom! It's really unwarranted. Mercedes look as if they have a good base to work with. Remember before the start of the winter testing? Most people were predicting that Mercedes would be stuck in the midfield...or even as low as 15th. But one of them finished in front of a Red Bull! I reckon expectations have been built up a little too high since testing. And remember that this is not one of Lewis's best tracks...wait until Nurburgring, Montreal, etc. Yes Mercedes have a way to go but I think that there is much cause for optimism. :)

#3766 pinkypants

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:59

Agreed with the previous poster that look where McLaren are - they had an amazing end to 2012 but this year they are back to 2009 levels.

I'm very happy with 5th, if Mercedes can sort their reliability issues out. Remember Lewis out scored the 2nd RBR!

I think pace wise at the moment, we'd have to say Lotus > Ferrari/RBR > Mercedes > McLaren. We're a lot further up the order than I expected going into this season.

Real question is now if Mercedes have the depth and resources to drive development throughout the season and not get leap frogged by McLaren.

Edited by pinkypants, 17 March 2013 - 08:00.


#3767 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 07:59

It was an OK start, Q pace is good, race pace was also pretty good but the strategy didn't go like they hoped, seemed to me that they couldn't get the tyres working properly in the 2nd stint which then compromised them into a 3 stop when they were out of sequence with the leaders.
However, IMHO they could've got FM if everything went perfectly, P4 was max.

#3768 ivand911

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:01

Nico has alternator problem?, battery got empty. Lauda says.

#3769 BernieEc

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:05

I think P4/P5 was the best result. I don't think race pace is that bad. its a bit better than the red bulls IMHO

#3770 slmk

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:07

Agreed with the previous poster that look where McLaren are - they had an amazing end to 2012 but this year they are back to 2009 levels.

I'm very happy with 5th, if Mercedes can sort their reliability issues out. Remember Lewis out scored the 2nd RBR!

I think pace wise at the moment, we'd have to say Lotus > Ferrari/RBR > Mercedes > McLaren. We're a lot further up the order than I expected going into this season.

Real question is now if Mercedes have the depth and resources to drive development throughout the season and not get leap frogged by McLaren.


If anything, Force India is faster than McLaren.

Mercedes has got an increased budget this year so that might help. I'm curious as to how the car was so slow on the straights...

#3771 baddog

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:11

Mac history would lead one to expect a resurgence there. Ferrari and Redbull are clearly faster than Merc. Lotus look like being as good and have the tyre advantage. I cant see where merc are well off.. is being clearly better than the midfielders such a great achievement for a team with this backing and such great drivers?

#3772 slmk

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:15

Mac history would lead one to expect a resurgence there. Ferrari and Redbull are clearly faster than Merc. Lotus look like being as good and have the tyre advantage. I cant see where merc are well off.. is being clearly better than the midfielders such a great achievement for a team with this backing and such great drivers?


Compared to where they were last year in Brazil, yes.

Also, their qualifying pace/mechanical grip means great starting positions in tracks like Singapore/Monaco/Hungary where it is very hard to overtake.

#3773 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:16

Race pace: Too early to tell one way or the other .... this race was all about looking after tyres - in unusual conditions.

On quali pace they are very decent. With a better strategy and a better start they might have been on the podium today.

Reliability is still a big worry.

Edited by jjcale, 17 March 2013 - 08:17.


#3774 Hanzo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:16

I really don´t know what to think of this result...
The image was quite good. But I think the general positivism is in great part due to the "Lewis factor"
If people had to analyse this same race result but with Schumacher retiring and Nico fifth, the opinions would be slightly different... or maybe not :well:

#3775 aray

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:18

though result may not be as good as you expected from quali result,it is still solid...moreover Oz is hardly a yardstick for pace....so you guys have very stable base to work with...:up:

#3776 slmk

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:18

Race pace: Too early to tell one way or the other .... this race was all about looking after tyres - in unusal conditions.

On quali pace they are very decent. With a better strategy and a better start they might have been on the podium today.

Reliability is still a big worry.


Top speed and grip levels as well. Encouraging that they got 5 more laps out of the SS tyres but still, they were too slow at the start and their top speed in straights is just poor, they were sitting ducks out there.

#3777 1Devil1

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:20

Mac history would lead one to expect a resurgence there. Ferrari and Redbull are clearly faster than Merc. Lotus look like being as good and have the tyre advantage. I cant see where merc are well off.. is being clearly better than the midfielders such a great achievement for a team with this backing and such great drivers?

:up:

They are at the same level as last year at this point. Good raw speed but tire management seems to be a problem. I am happy the hype is gone - don't look back some pages here, Lewis the winner or podium would be a realistic aim some users really believed. It's a good result for Mercedes after the last races in 2012 however not for dreamers who thought this car is a beast. Lewis seems to be okay with it, looking forward to the next race, I like his new approach, he definitely know his chances will raise in 2014

#3778 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:20

Top speed and grip levels as well. Encouraging that they got 5 more laps out of the SS tyres but still, they were too slow at the start and their top speed in straights is just poor, they were sitting ducks out there.

What's wrong with the top speed? Seem you're confusing things a bit.

#3779 jrg19

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:20

Finished ahead of a car that won the race and a car that is the fastest qualifier.

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#3780 kedia990

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:23

Agreed with the previous poster that look where McLaren are - they had an amazing end to 2012 but this year they are back to 2009 levels.

I'm very happy with 5th, if Mercedes can sort their reliability issues out. Remember Lewis out scored the 2nd RBR!

I think pace wise at the moment, we'd have to say Lotus > Ferrari/RBR > Mercedes > McLaren. We're a lot further up the order than I expected going into this season.

Real question is now if Mercedes have the depth and resources to drive development throughout the season and not get leap frogged by McLaren.


Lotus > Ferrari > RBR > Mercedes > Force India > McLaren :blush:
I think Ferrari is definitely ahead on race pace compared to RBR, and that's what matters.
Force India is decidedly better than McLaren on race pace. In fact I think FI cocked up Sutil's strategy, costing him a top 5 finish.

What I'm keen to know is the effect of temperatures on car performance. For some reason I think Ferrari would stay consistent, with FI being the most fickle.

#3781 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:25

:up:

They are at the same level as last year at this point. Good raw speed but tire management seems to be a problem. I am happy the hype is gone - don't look back some pages here, Lewis the winner or podium would be a realistic aim some users really believed. It's a good result for Mercedes after the last races in 2012 however not for dreamers who thought this car is a beast. Lewis seems to be okay with it, looking forward to the next race, I like his new approach, he definitely know his chances will raise in 2014

I think in terms of degradation things looked OK, seems to me that they didn't get the balance right between the SS and medium usage. They were treating the SSofts perfectly with this setup but then it wasn't optimal for the mediums, at least not in the second stint.

You can compare it to Sutil, he had a perfect setup for the mediums but just burned through the SS in a couple of laps without showing great pace on them.

Edited by peroa, 17 March 2013 - 08:26.


#3782 Alx09

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:29

race pace was also pretty good


Are you sure about that?

#3783 mlsnoopy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:29

What's wrong with the top speed? Seem you're confusing things a bit.


Top speed without the DRS.

#3784 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:30

Overall I'm very pleased with this start to the season, loads of positives! Tyres didn't fall away at any point, race pace looked good in places and look strong in both wet and dry qualy. Much better than I had anticipated pre season, many did say that a lot in here were setting themselves up for only disappointment with all the hype. Only worry really is reliability I guess...

#3785 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:31

Top speed without the DRS.

What was wrong with it?


#3786 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:32

Are you sure about that?

I don't know what you expected, but so far so good.

Edited by peroa, 17 March 2013 - 08:32.


#3787 Dalin80

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:34

What's wrong with the top speed? Seem you're confusing things a bit.


I don't have any figures to hand and maybe there were other factors like fuel / engine saving on the go but the mercs did appear slow(er) on the straights, the red bull hardly famous for its top speed walked past with a DRS boost.

My live timing kept dying so we will have to wait until the FIA release various bits of data to know for sure.

#3788 thomin

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:34

Keep in mind that everybody is still learning about the tires. Melbourne is an unusual circuit and the temperatures were unexpected. Coupled with little experience with the tires, it was always going to be somewhat of a lottery.

I'm not saying that Mercedes is a top 3 team (yet  ;) ), they're probably not, but I don't think they're as far back as it might look like after today's race.

If Mercedes is still that much slower come Barcelona, then I'm ready to acknowledge that this season won't be much better than the last three, but not before then.

#3789 SunnyENTP

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:34

I wont be surprised if Mercedes stop speed was the one of the worst.

#3790 Mauseri

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:36

I'm sure Mercedes will be much stronger in the next round. This week they were quick alrteady, but didn't get it together.

#3791 Coral

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:37

Finished ahead of a car that won the race and a car that is the fastest qualifier.

:up:

This! I don't really get the miserable atmosphere on this thread. Lewis seemed pretty happy after the race, and it could be worse...he could have been driving a McLaren. It's always assumed that McLaren will be resurgent but that's not much good if they have two very poor qualifiers. Once Mercedes get their race pace sorted, Lewis's excellent qualifying skills should put Mercedes right up there. There is much to be positive about IMO. :)



#3792 Shiroo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:37

I don't know what you expected, but so far so good.

starting 3rd, while winner 7th and finishing 45sec behind him is good race pace?

#3793 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:38

I don't have any figures to hand and maybe there were other factors like fuel / engine saving on the go but the mercs did appear slow(er) on the straights, the red bull hardly famous for its top speed walked past with a DRS boost.

My live timing kept dying so we will have to wait until the FIA release various bits of data to know for sure.

... and fresher tyres.


#3794 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:49

I think the biggest issue today was Lewis trying to go for a two stopper which masked his pace for a lot of the race, anyway Lewis seems happy and Nico seemed upbeat despite his issue so so far so good imo.

#3795 undersquare

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:57

I am a bit disappointed that it looked the 4th fastest car. Although a lot of the race its laptimes looked competitive, at some stages it was hopelessly slower and easy meat for the other cars.

I have a question mark about its fuel consumption/exhaust/mapping and hence start weight, I don't know if we'll hear anything about that.

But it looks like it won't take much to move up. I could see the balance of power changing race by race among the top 5 teams.

#3796 race addicted

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 08:58

Feels amazing that fifth is slightly dissapointing, so overall, positive signs from all at AMG Mercedes! Would they have been closer had they gone for three stops from the off? 45.5 seconds down at the flag.


..the question is, how much did it compromise them, not going for three stops from the off, but changing from a two-stopper? Ten seconds?

I feel a positive vibe, and I'm a bit surprised about the wet towels in this thread, 'cause the base on which to work from this year, is better. This car is for real, and the one that struggled in the midfield last year, was not.

#3797 jrg19

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:00

This car has more development potential, from a visual armchair point of view. There are a lot of bits and bobs some other teams seem to be exploiting.

#3798 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:03

..the question is, how much did it compromise them, not going for three stops from the off, but changing from a two-stopper? Ten seconds?

I feel a positive vibe, and I'm a bit surprised about the wet towels in this thread, 'cause the base on which to work from this year, is better. This car is for real, and the one that struggled in the midfield last year, was not.

I reckon Massa was up for grabs.

#3799 slmk

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:03

What's wrong with the top speed? Seem you're confusing things a bit.


Poor speed all over. Look here..

http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7191&p=5

Either they were geared too long (improbable) or their DRS is one of the very best, as they were topping speed trap in qualifying and FPs.

Edited by slmk, 17 March 2013 - 09:05.


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#3800 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:05

I think the biggest issue today was Lewis trying to go for a two stopper which masked his pace for a lot of the race, anyway Lewis seems happy and Nico seemed upbeat despite his issue so so far so good imo.



Initially going for a 2 stopper was not LH but team strategy. I am not suggesting LH disagreed with it but he indirectly made the call for the switch to 3 stops. He told the team a couple of laps after the first stop that he would not be able to get to the end of the race on those tyres.

One thing for sure, that car tyre management can't be bad for going that long on the SS. Even the Lotus didn't do it. They just have to find more speed. The car's straight line speed was relatively poor. We know the engine is probably the most powerful out there so I think either they were managing fuel, gearing, or drag or any combination of these.

What do you guys think?

Edited by femi, 17 March 2013 - 09:10.