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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#3801 Dalin80

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:05

According to mclarens data for top speeds, using hamiltons data.

Sector 1

269.7 kmh

best was 274.2 (vergne), average around 270


sector 2

283.8 kmh

best was 291.9 (massa), average around 287


sector 3

294.7 kmh

best was 306.1 (webber), average around 299


Lewis's fastest lap was 05s short of the best but only 0.25 off the rest of the podium places.


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#3802 race addicted

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:06

Poor speed all over. Look here..

http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7191&p=5


Strange I think. Tempting to say their 7th was geared for Q, but you know, the engineers take into account the car will be full of fuel and 150kgs heavier at race-start. :stoned:

#3803 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:07

Initially going for a 2 stopper was not LH but team strategy. I am not suggesting LH disagreed with it but he indirectly made the call for the switch to 3 stops. He told the team a couple of laps after the first stop that he would not be able to get to the end of the race on those tyres.

One thing for sure, that car tyre management can't be bad for going that long on the SS. Even the Lotus didn't do it. They just have to find more speed. The car's straight line speed was relatively poor.

When I said Lewis I didn't mean it was his decision, I was just speaking in general terms about the team :p I agree about the tyre management point though, looked rather good imo.

#3804 meddo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:15

Race pace wasn't that bad. Just chech Vettel vs. Hamilton on that mclaren page. It was just one of them strange calls from the pitwall. Pound for pound, race pace was equal with RB. Lotus is just in another universe.

#3805 MeatPopsicle

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:16

Good first race for Hamilton, beat a red bull and both mclarens, shame about Rosberg.

I cant help thinking we weren't in the temperature window for the tyres this weekend, i dont see how there can be such a big difference in race pace to qualy pace this year given the DRS usage is much more limited.

#3806 superdelphinus

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:16

Yeah pretty good race for Mercedes really. Just got setup and strategy a little bit wrong

#3807 slmk

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:18

It seems to me that their car was better set for the supersoft than the mediums. They were flying on the supersoft, sustained a low 1:33 pace for more laps than everyone else.

They did well on the first set of medium, but the second set wasn't too good (pitted after 10 odd laps).

Seems like Mercedes genuinely believed they could go for 2 stops... [armchair] did they put more wing to get more downforce to help the tyres? If so, they will probably be disappointed. [/armchair]

#3808 MeatPopsicle

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:20

Oh and Im not blaming the strategy at all, they were losing out a LOT on raw pace to the leaders at the beginning when everything was equal, it made sense to attempt a 2 stopper to try and get back in the fight and it even looked like it was going to work at one point.. overall they didnt really lose any places with that gamble i dont think

#3809 Kingshark

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:23

Without Nico's DNF Merc would've been 5th and 6th today, and came home with 18 points. Well, while it might not be the best car; it's certainly better than what that McLaren currently is.

#3810 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:29

The apparent lack of pace looks deliberate. I jsut wonder how they did that, turn down the engine?
I guess the guys that suggested they would have finished higher if they had identical strategies as the guys around them were right.

Now on to Sepang and hoping for a finish for both cars and a more successful race weekend strategy.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106115

Edited by femi, 17 March 2013 - 09:35.


#3811 race addicted

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:31

Oh and Im not blaming the strategy at all, they were losing out a LOT on raw pace to the leaders at the beginning when everything was equal, it made sense to attempt a 2 stopper to try and get back in the fight and it even looked like it was going to work at one point.. overall they didnt really lose any places with that gamble i dont think


I'm sure that was a lot to do with running to a delta, to make the options last long enough for that planned two-stopper to work.

#3812 superdelphinus

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:33

Oh and Im not blaming the strategy at all, they were losing out a LOT on raw pace to the leaders at the beginning when everything was equal, it made sense to attempt a 2 stopper to try and get back in the fight and it even looked like it was going to work at one point.. overall they didnt really lose any places with that gamble i dont think


Yeah but I think they had planned 2 stops all along, and so were running to a slower delta than the others at the start

#3813 Dalin80

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:37

Without Nico's DNF Merc would've been 5th and 6th today, and came home with 18 points. Well, while it might not be the best car; it's certainly better than what that McLaren currently is.


5th and 7th would be more likely to be honest, I think webber would have ended up in front of nic by the end.

Neither merc got near the top half of any top speed table and that combined with a compromised strategy probably made things looks a bit worse then they are, in today's conditions the merc should have been a considerably closer to the back of massa / vettel.

But it looks like a stable consistent platform and the team seems fairly positive, recent investments and hirings should also help development as well.

#3814 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:38

I'm sure that was a lot to do with running to a delta, to make the options last long enough for that planned two-stopper to work.


Absolutely, judging by Ross statement and that also explain why the gap between LH and NR were rather constant. It is now making sense why LH was asking if his pace was OK.

#3815 Shiroo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:39

Oh and Im not blaming the strategy at all, they were losing out a LOT on raw pace to the leaders at the beginning when everything was equal, it made sense to attempt a 2 stopper to try and get back in the fight and it even looked like it was going to work at one point.. overall they didnt really lose any places with that gamble i dont think

Kimi was at Hamilton back right from the bat. So need to agree with this one. Even with different tactic they couldn't be any higher than 5th.

#3816 Timstr11

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:42

Decent performance, although I expected a little bit more. I guess more downforce will help them work the tyres better at initial laps. It seems to take a while for them to get into the window.
A 3-stop race from the beginning may have been slightly better as that would have allowed them to drive less conservatively. I still have a problem with engineers having to tell drivers to ease pace to save tyres. Counter intuitive to a race driver.

Edited by Timstr11, 17 March 2013 - 09:48.


#3817 MeatPopsicle

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:45

Yeah but I think they had planned 2 stops all along, and so were running to a slower delta than the others at the start


hmm i dont think so, lewis was trying desperately to keep people behind, if he had more pace in the car he would have used it

#3818 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:47

Kimi was at Hamilton back right from the bat. So need to agree with this one. Even with different tactic they couldn't be any higher than 5th.


They lost a lot of time by not changing tyres at the right time .... its arguable both ways

#3819 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:51

hmm i dont think so, lewis was trying desperately to keep people behind, if he had more pace in the car he would have used it



How should one explain this?

"We had a very good opening stint of the race, making the super-soft tyre last until lap 13 for Lewis and lap 14 for Nico. That convinced us that a two-stop strategy was feasible this afternoon. However, the balance on the medium tyre was not what we needed. Having committed to two stops, and adjusted our pace accordingly to preserve the tyres, the decision to convert to a three-stop strategy compromised Lewis relative to those cars who had gone for three from the start. The behaviour of the tyres is something we will have to think about and understand over the next days. Nico was running strongly when he was forced to retire. We saw a drop in voltage from the battery and that stopped the car. Overall, we have made a good step with the car and learned a lot this afternoon. If we can put the pieces of the puzzle together, we have the ingredients to race well."

- Ross Brawn

Edited by femi, 17 March 2013 - 09:51.


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#3820 jrg19

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:51

Lewis tweeting next week will be better, hopefully some upgrades and he can finish top 4.

#3821 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:55

How should one explain this?

- Ross Brawn

It's the first race, they will get their heads together now and adjust things for next week.

:up:
The opening SS stints were impressive.

Edited by peroa, 17 March 2013 - 09:55.


#3822 OoxLox

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:00

They lost a lot of time by not changing tyres at the right time .... its arguable both ways


Yep, if you compare LH and SV at en.mclarenf-1.com you can see LH lost a lot of time to the leaders on the supersofts and a further big chunk by staying out a few laps longer. Looks like the Mercs were running to a slower delta on the first stint so they could try for a 2-stop and give themselves more leeway in case rain threatened so their slow pace isn't as worrying as it looked at first. After the first stop LH matched SV on the mediums. If the Merc can go faster on the option in the hotter temps in Malaysia and is as good on the primes as in Melbourne then a podium could be doable.

Damn fine job by the team basically. Keep it up! :smoking:

#3823 F1ultimate

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:25

If the car felt good it means that downforce and stability was excellent, perhaps at the disadvantage of top speed. So we probably ran a bit too much downforce. This is what Lewis said:

“The car was feeling really good so I don’t know how the other guys were pulling away so quickly. But we’ll keep pushing and hopefully we’ll get there.”


http://www.f1fanatic...debut-expected/

#3824 Guizotia

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:28

This is beginning as a fairly good "write-off" of a year.

Lets hope it turns into the best write-off ever!

#3825 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:33

Lol for what it's worth BBC 6 Music have described it as 'A poor start for Hamilton at Mercedes'

#3826 race addicted

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:35

Lol for what it's worth BBC 6 Music have described it as 'A poor start for Hamilton at Mercedes'


They don't know any better.

#3827 F1ultimate

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:37

Lol for what it's worth BBC 6 Music have described it as 'A poor start for Hamilton at Mercedes'


How is it a poor start? He qualified third, finished 5th and bagged more points than the Mclaren drivers combined.

I'd say that's a decent start.

#3828 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:39

How is it a poor start? He qualified third, finished 5th and bagged more points than the Mclaren drivers combined.

I'd say that's a decent start.

I'd say it is more than a decent start to his Merc career all things considered, I'd describe it as 'good'. It seems people really did believe the hype which is a shame, they are now disappointed with what is a marvelous turn around on the teams behalf.

#3829 Dalin80

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:41

They are the same people who described the first test as-


'first day of testing and lewis hamilton has already spun and crashed his new shiny mercedes into a wall'.


I wouldnt worry about it too much they are not exactly overburdened with listeners.

#3830 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:46

6Music is now nudging 2 million listeners, and is by far the country's best music station. (oddest thread derail?)

#3831 Wingnut

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:54

Lol for what it's worth BBC 6 Music have described it as 'A poor start for Hamilton at Mercedes'


Wow, what did they say about Jenson then?


#3832 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:58

Wow, what did they say about Jenson then?

Oddly enough there was no mention of Jenson, McLaren or any other British interest.

#3833 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:59

6Music is now nudging 2 million listeners, and is by far the country's best music station. (oddest thread derail?)

Slightly off topic but I do agree :)

#3834 jerriy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:00

I'd say it is more than a decent start to his Merc career all things considered, I'd describe it as 'good'. It seems people really did believe the hype which is a shame, they are now disappointed with what is a marvelous turn around on the teams behalf.


It's not so much disappointment as begrudging. They are bitter. It hurts them that he keeps succeeding.

#3835 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:07

It's not so much disappointment as begrudging. They are bitter. It hurts them that he keeps succeeding.


I think any bbc station is only relevant to the people of england...

#3836 teejay

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:54

Sad - we went from 3rd to 5th and Nico out.

Happy - the car was pretty damn good on the SS. Its also in the ballpark pace wise.

Bring on Malaysia - I ensured my seats were across from the Mercedes pits :)

#3837 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:59

I think the biggest issue today was Lewis trying to go for a two stopper which masked his pace for a lot of the race, anyway Lewis seems happy and Nico seemed upbeat despite his issue so so far so good imo.


This. It is very obvious if you check the lapcharts.


Poor speed all over. Look here..

http://en.mclarenf-1...e...;s=7191&p=5

Either they were geared too long (improbable) or their DRS is one of the very best, as they were topping speed trap in qualifying and FPs.



The sped trap obsession is a dead-end. I am a little dissatisfied though. Merc should finish races with two cars. NOT one, or none. That leaves a sour taste really. Pit stops are still 0,5s more than Ferrari,Red Bull, but 0,5s better than Lotus and Mc. Otherwise, the first race weekend has proved that the W04 is a fast car, if not reliable yet.

13 laps on the SS? please check:

Raikkonen:
2 1:34.567
3 1:33.365
4 1:33.488
5 1:33.684
6 1:34.365
7 1:33.910
8 1:33.881

Hamilton:
2 1:35.414
3 1:34.030
4 1:34.047
5 1:34.607
6 1:35.715
7 1:35.068
8 1:34.453
9 1:33.935
10 1:33.746
11 1:33.197
12 1:33.208


There is no tire eating problem, and it is very obvious that the race pace is very good. You may check the Ferrari and Red Bull times too. What seems obvious that it was colder than expected, and car took 3 -4 laps to heat the tires, and even then it wasn't 100%. Other teams only took one lap to get up to consistent times. The same problem with the Mediums. So, the car is pretty good with tires, and has a pretty solid race pace too. Sepang will be better.

edit:http://www.fia.com/championship/fia-formula-1-world-championship/2013/2013-australian-grand-prix-event-information

Edited by Szoelloe, 17 March 2013 - 13:00.


#3838 stanga

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:17

I think very little can be taken from that race. Hamilton's position was compromised by the strategy switch, a strategy that they were going with because of the superb SS tyre deg they were seeing in the first stint.

#3839 bonjon1979a

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:23

I think very little can be taken from that race. Hamilton's position was compromised by the strategy switch, a strategy that they were going with because of the superb SS tyre deg they were seeing in the first stint.

They fell between the two strategies. It was neither here nor there. Looking at those times, Hamilton should have either carried on for longer on the ss and pitted when raikonnan did, or they should've commuted to the three stop earlier. I expect that the lack of running in practice and lack of time between qualy and race meant strategy wasn't optimised.

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#3840 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:24

I think very little can be taken from that race. Hamilton's position was compromised by the strategy switch, a strategy that they were going with because of the superb SS tyre deg they were seeing in the first stint.


No. The 2 stop was the original strategy. They knew they could last the tires more than anyone. What became obvious though that it was slow. The mediums did not work, IMHO. Check the stints. Also, they told LH they will switch to plan 'B' when they aborted the two-stopper.


#3841 senna da silva

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:24

Personally, as Merc supporters, I think we have to temper our expectations for the beginning of the season. Points in Melbourne will be a good result as far as I'm concerned, a fifth place finish would be as good as it gets. What I hope we see is incremental improvements throughout the season because the team has stated that all of the pieces to make that happen are now in place where they weren't in the past. Podiums by seasons end should be regular. These are my expectations for 2013 and the W04. All I'd like to see in preseason testing is consistency on the tyres, anything above that should be considered gravy at this point.


I'm happy.

#3842 Msaman

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:28

This. It is very obvious if you check the lapcharts.





The sped trap obsession is a dead-end. I am a little dissatisfied though. Merc should finish races with two cars. NOT one, or none. That leaves a sour taste really. Pit stops are still 0,5s more than Ferrari,Red Bull, but 0,5s better than Lotus and Mc. Otherwise, the first race weekend has proved that the W04 is a fast car, if not reliable yet.

13 laps on the SS? please check:

Raikkonen:
2 1:34.567
3 1:33.365
4 1:33.488
5 1:33.684
6 1:34.365
7 1:33.910
8 1:33.881

Hamilton:
2 1:35.414
3 1:34.030
4 1:34.047
5 1:34.607
6 1:35.715
7 1:35.068
8 1:34.453
9 1:33.935
10 1:33.746
11 1:33.197
12 1:33.208


There is no tire eating problem, and it is very obvious that the race pace is very good. You may check the Ferrari and Red Bull times too. What seems obvious that it was colder than expected, and car took 3 -4 laps to heat the tires, and even then it wasn't 100%. Other teams only took one lap to get up to consistent times. The same problem with the Mediums. So, the car is pretty good with tires, and has a pretty solid race pace too. Sepang will be better.

edit:http://www.fia.com/championship/fia-formula-1-world-championship/2013/2013-australian-grand-prix-event-information

Even if they were on 2 stopper why he reported on the pit radio that he can not do it when he was on the medium compound tire.
What happened when Hamilton put his prime tires on?Why he could not do 20 + laps on them if he did not have problem with SS ?
Or it was just too cold and while the tires reach their optimal T they were already gone or at least got some graining .


#3843 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:32

Even if they were on 2 stopper why he reported on the pit radio that he can not do it when he was on the medium compound tire.
What happened when Hamilton put his prime tires on?Why he could not do 20 + laps on them if he did not have problem with SS ?
Or it was just too cold and while the tires reach their optimal T they were already gone or at least got some graining .


As I said, the mediums did not work, imho. Yes, it was too cold.


#3844 Timstr11

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:34

Rosberg said the tyres were graining, hence the slower times.
Track temps too low >> not into the optimum window >> graining.
Malaysia there will be no graining for sure. Hope it stays dry though.

#3845 Pingu Pi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:36

Raikkonen:
2 1:34.567
3 1:33.365
4 1:33.488
5 1:33.684
6 1:34.365
7 1:33.910
8 1:33.881

Hamilton:
2 1:35.414
3 1:34.030
4 1:34.047
5 1:34.607
6 1:35.715
7 1:35.068
8 1:34.453
9 1:33.935
10 1:33.746
11 1:33.197
12 1:33.208


Just seems to evidence that they got the strategy wrong, lost a lot of time managing the tires in the first stint rather than getting pure performance from them as others did.

Wrong strategy, too cautious on the cheese wheels. Hopefully learn from this, we'll see in Malaysia.

#3846 Markn93

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 13:54

I was initially screaming for them to come in when Vettel and Alonso did, (in my head obviously due to the early hour), but was amazed when lap after lap they were setting green sectors, had their tyres gone off they probably would have brought them in. So it probably made the pitwall consider a 2 stopper a real possibility and clearly their pre race calculations told them it was faster, just look at Kimi. I think this is what the race engineer was saying to Lewis after the race, trying to justify their race strategy, if you like. Shame that good/better tyre deg in the first stint meant falling back in the long run.

#3847 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:02

Well a lot of teams though were pitting drivers when their times were showing green.

#3848 Seano

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:15

Seems a strange call going for a two stop strategy when you think about their recent testing. At Barcelona both LH & NR were doing the 7 plus laps at a fair old lick when compared to the Lotus and accepting the degradation. It was too cold for this unknown tack to really work today - although with a different set-up to work the tyre harder, later on in the season, it might be a viable alternative.

Reliability does remain a serious concern and the debacle of LH being sent out with the floor hanging down shows that there needs to be some fine tuning of the pit crew discipline.

But overall its good solid start to the year to build upon.

Seano

Edited by Seano, 17 March 2013 - 14:16.


#3849 SunnyENTP

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:21

Maybe we are all seeing things differently but what are posters positive and negatives about the cars/teams performance?


Positives

The car has single lap speed in cool weather
Good with tyres
It might be better on a hotter track

Negatives

Car does not have race pace in cool weather
Mechanical failures


I cant make further judgement until we get to a different track that's warmer and see how the car performs

#3850 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:24

Well a lot of teams though were pitting drivers when their times were showing green.


Which teams? If you check the lap charts, that's hardly true for the frontrunners.