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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#3851 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:25

In the Ferrari days, Brawn was a master tactitian, but he doesn't seem to have that anymore. This seemed a guess that could have gone either way, hero or zero.

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#3852 superdelphinus

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:27

To be fair, the rewards of trying that are greater in the very early parts if the season

#3853 Fonzey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:35

I don't think the strategy was THAT bad.

I think Lewis could have done a 2stopper and still finished ahead of Webber, but rather than controlling Webber he would need to be defending aggressively with a chance of losing the position.

From the pitwall's point of view, Hamilton didn't do enough in the first two stints to make the two stopper work (unlike Kimi who showed much better pace early in the Grand Prix) so when Hamilton got a window whereby he could pit and still be ahead of the Torro Rosso(?) which was following him - it made sense to play it safe, bring in the guaranteed position rather than push it and risk slipping off the cliff.

Had Hamilton have kept in front of Massa/Vettel when they were on their second sting - keeping out for a two stopper may have been called upon, as the gamble suddenly becomes more worthwhile.

I think things are looking rather good for Mercedes and the W04. Their only apparent failings this weekend were failing to switch the tyres on in a very cold race, all other things being equal in Malaysia I think Mercedes will show much better race pace, and if Hamilton keeps sticking it on the second row we should have some good results to look forward to.

#3854 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:36

I wonder if they took it too easy worried about tyres and they could have actually pushed more in the end.

#3855 Fonzey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:42

I wonder if they took it too easy worried about tyres and they could have actually pushed more in the end.


Yeah I was wondering this, i'm assuming it was a "not up to temp" issue but it could simply have been a conservative delta. The nature in which Lewis lost places at the start does suggest a "hard" limitation though rather than a delta issue.

#3856 teejay

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:50

Given what this team has been through, it is fair to say that they were always going to trend conservative on tyre decisions...

#3857 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 14:51

They fell between the two strategies. It was neither here nor there. Looking at those times, Hamilton should have either carried on for longer on the ss and pitted when raikonnan did, or they should've commuted to the three stop earlier. I expect that the lack of running in practice and lack of time between qualy and race meant strategy wasn't optimised.


This .... and, as its LH, they should have opted to use his natural pace rather than ask him to be a tyre whisperer

#3858 Lamag

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:04

Does anyone has the lap by lap chart?

#3859 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:09

Does anyone has the lap by lap chart?


http://www.fia.com/c...ent-information

few posts above yours too:)


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#3860 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:10

This .... and, as its LH, they should have opted to use his natural pace rather than ask him to be a tyre whisperer


Which they did not.


#3861 JaredS

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:11

They possibly could have done a two stopper today. What killed the strategy was Lewis's fighting spirit. He's learnt to drive to a delta, but in the heat of battle and his hatred of being overtaken, he fights too hard against cars that are much faster than his at that particular point in time. He defended very strongly against a much faster Kimi, losing precious lap time, when it was already written by the Gods that Kimi was going to win today and by a significant margin.

He then defended strongly against a much faster Alonso and in the process locked up and severely flat spotted his tyres necessitating another pit stop after only a few laps. With the Pirellis, and especially this year more than ever before, it's important to think of the bigger picture and keep up overall average lap time and not waste time fighting with much quicker cars. There may always been an opportunity to come back at them later on in the race.

Not to mention the high risk of DNF. Today he was fine because his opponents were Kimi and Alonso who are all clean at wheel to wheel. But try the same thing with Massa or Webber and it is likely to end in tears.

Sutil made the same mistake today, killing his SS tyres fighting with Lewis and Webber, which almost resulted in him losing a place to team mate Di Resta and that would have been a shame after having driven a fantastic race.

#3862 windtravels

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:12

This .... and, as its LH, they should have opted to use his natural pace rather than ask him to be a tyre whisperer


agreed.

but overall happy with 5th for lewis. disappointed for nico, reliability issues are worrying.

#3863 Hayden1

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:12

Very good times in Barca testing. How it was today? We are the fastest? :rotfl: Lap 56 with 1:29,274 from Raikkonen on 2 stoper shoul give You something to think about.......

Edited by Hayden1, 17 March 2013 - 15:15.


#3864 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:15

They possibly could have done a two stopper today. What killed the strategy was Lewis's fighting spirit. He's learnt to drive to a delta, but in the heat of battle and his hatred of being overtaken, he fights too hard against cars that are much faster than his at that particular point in time. He defended very strongly against a much faster Kimi, losing precious lap time, when it was already written by the Gods that Kimi was going to win today and by a significant margin.

He then defended strongly against a much faster Alonso and in the process locked up and severely flat spotted his tyres necessitating another pit stop after only a few laps. With the Pirellis, and especially this year more than ever before, it's important to think of the bigger picture and keep up overall average lap time and not waste time fighting with much quicker cars. There may always been an opportunity to come back at them later on in the race.

Not to mention the high risk of DNF. Today he was fine because his opponents were Kimi and Alonso who are all clean at wheel to wheel. But try the same thing with Massa or Webber and it is likely to end in tears.

Sutil made the same mistake today, killing his SS tyres fighting with Lewis and Webber, which almost resulted in him losing a place to team mate Di Resta and that would have been a shame after having driven a fantastic race.



Don't understand this, what other pitstop after a few laps?

Well he never put up a fight against Massa

#3865 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:31

They possibly could have done a two stopper today. What killed the strategy was Lewis's fighting spirit. He's learnt to drive to a delta, but in the heat of battle and his hatred of being overtaken, he fights too hard against cars that are much faster than his at that particular point in time. He defended very strongly against a much faster Kimi, losing precious lap time, when it was already written by the Gods that Kimi was going to win today and by a significant margin.

He then defended strongly against a much faster Alonso and in the process locked up and severely flat spotted his tyres necessitating another pit stop after only a few laps. With the Pirellis, and especially this year more than ever before, it's important to think of the bigger picture and keep up overall average lap time and not waste time fighting with much quicker cars. There may always been an opportunity to come back at them later on in the race.

Not to mention the high risk of DNF. Today he was fine because his opponents were Kimi and Alonso who are all clean at wheel to wheel. But try the same thing with Massa or Webber and it is likely to end in tears.

Sutil made the same mistake today, killing his SS tyres fighting with Lewis and Webber, which almost resulted in him losing a place to team mate Di Resta and that would have been a shame after having driven a fantastic race.


That's a pretty theory, but it's not true.He asked his race engineer if he should let him go or not, and he was specifically told not to. Again, if you check the chart, he was definitely slower on the mediums than what they expected. He said after the race that he does not know where he lost the time, because the car felt good. I do think that with the stint he has done with the SS at the start, put him in a position to be successful with the 2 stopper, but the race was held basically at the end of the day, and temps were dropping constantly. I am not sure his tires were shot, he was not significantly slower than before, but certainly slow enough to abort the two-stopper even w/o the fight with FA. He was nowhere neer the pace of KR's Lotus, and he should have been.


#3866 rileyl

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:36

agreed.

but overall happy with 5th for lewis. disappointed for nico, reliability issues are worrying.


Yeah, I agree. I think the team should split the strategy with Lewis driving as fast as he can with 1 more stop, Nico pacing the delta with 1 less stop.

#3867 JaredS

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:37

http://www.fia.com/c...ent-information

few posts above yours too:)


Lewis's pace on the SS option tyres was fantastic. Look at his times just before he pitted on lap 13. He was doing low 1:33s. In comparison, whilst Seb pitted on lap 7 and gained about 5 seconds by going onto the primes, by the time Seb got to lap 14 he was doing mid 1:33s on his primes. Lewis's laps were also very consistent. It would have been very interesting to see how far he could have got on the options before it started to drop off.

I think the team was fooled by the 1:32s being done by those who pitted onto the primes. So they thought they were losing a second a lap, but from the lap time trend, Lewis's times on the options were coming down lap by lap up to his pit stop on lap 13. So who knows when the drop off would come, maybe next lap, or maybe 4 or 5 laps from then.

The main weakness I see with the W04 in the last race was the opening few laps on the options when the car was heavy. Lewis and Nico were much slower than Kimi in the opening laps (almost 2 sec/lap), but also 1 to 1.5 sec slower than Vettel/Alonso/Massa. It almost seems like the car doesn't work the tyres very hard and the tyres were a bit too cold in those first few laps.

Using Whitmarsh's favourite term, "in hindsight" I would have run Lewis a little longer on the options until the first sign of drop off and then run two stints on the primes i.e a two stopper, and told Lewis not to fight with any faster cars. Had he done this, I think he may have been able to average low 1:33s in the second stint and low 1:30s in the third stint and challenge for 3rd place or at least 4th. Kimi and Alonso's pace was too strong for him today no matter what the strategy.

#3868 BigCHrome

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:41

I think it was a disappointing race, however there wasnt much Merc could do given that were back to the lottery races. Hopefully they fluke into the perfect conditions at some point soon. Obviously the strategy didn't work out, but it didn't make a difference in the results.

Maybe Merc need to consider a RW with less drag when it's closed.

Well a lot of teams though were pitting drivers when their times were showing green.


That is because they are told to push right before the pits as they dont have to worry about tire wear.

This .... and, as its LH, they should have opted to use his natural pace rather than ask him to be a tyre whisperer


If he drove to his limits, the tires would be done in 3-4 laps.

#3869 Guizotia

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:48

Very good times in Barca testing. How it was today? We are the fastest? :rotfl: Lap 56 with 1:29,274 from Raikkonen on 2 stoper shoul give You something to think about.......


Are you sure you're in the right thread?

#3870 JaredS

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:48

Don't understand this, what other pitstop after a few laps?

Well he never put up a fight against Massa


Pitted on lap 31 and then only 9 laps later on the primes he pitted again on lap 42.

#3871 peroa

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:55

It's pretty simple, they couldn't get the medium tyre working well, they got graining and could never extract the necessary pace from them to make the 2 stopper work.
The setup was however perfect for the Ssofts.
http://www.auto-moto...el-6791123.html



#3872 JaredS

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:55

That's a pretty theory, but it's not true.He asked his race engineer if he should let him go or not, and he was specifically told not to. Again, if you check the chart, he was definitely slower on the mediums than what they expected. He said after the race that he does not know where he lost the time, because the car felt good. I do think that with the stint he has done with the SS at the start, put him in a position to be successful with the 2 stopper, but the race was held basically at the end of the day, and temps were dropping constantly. I am not sure his tires were shot, he was not significantly slower than before, but certainly slow enough to abort the two-stopper even w/o the fight with FA. He was nowhere neer the pace of KR's Lotus, and he should have been.


Ok thanks, I wasn't aware that his asked his race engineer about defending the position. I'm surprised his RE told him to defend. Makes for good watching and advertising of the brand, but not good for overall lap time. Especially since defending against the much faster Kimi and Alonso was an effort in futility as they were always going to get past with two DRS zones.

Having to do 27 laps on a set of primes was a stretch. To do a two-stopper he would have had to do a combination of longer first stint on the options and slightly longer second stint on the first set of primes and not waste lap time and tyre life fighting with Kimi and Alonso.

#3873 JaredS

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:58

It's pretty simple, they couldn't get the medium tyre working well, they got graining and could never extract the necessary pace from them to make the 2 stopper work.
The setup was however perfect for the Ssofts.
http://www.auto-moto...el-6791123.html


Thanks and this is really interesting. Hard to believe after last season, but almost seems like the car or at least today's setup, doesn't work the tyres too hard. So they didn't burn out the options and got excellent life out of it but didn't get the primes up to temp sufficiently and hence the graining.

#3874 braderzf50

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:13

Rosberg Twitter:

Watch Nico´s video message to you after a mixed first GP: "We will gonna have a good season." (by webteam)


Edited by braderzf50, 17 March 2013 - 16:23.


#3875 BigCHrome

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:21

Since the SS worked decently on the car I wonder if it could've been beneficial for them to do two stints on it.

#3876 PARAZAR

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:22

This .... and, as its LH, they should have opted to use his natural pace rather than ask him to be a tyre whisperer


When did this happen? I must have missed the radio message. The bit I heard was him being told to push and him saying that it was as fast as he could go.

Edited by PARAZAR, 17 March 2013 - 16:24.


#3877 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:23

Rosberg Twitter:

Watch Nico´s video message to you after a mixed first GP: "We will gonna have a good season." (by webteam)

I think the most telling quote was "We didn't show our potential in the race today"

#3878 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:23

I think it was a disappointing race, however there wasnt much Merc could do given that were back to the lottery races. Hopefully they fluke into the perfect conditions at some point soon. Obviously the strategy didn't work out, but it didn't make a difference in the results.

Maybe Merc need to consider a RW with less drag when it's closed.



That is because they are told to push right before the pits as they dont have to worry about tire wear.



If he drove to his limits, the tires would be done in 3-4 laps.



I just watched a post race interveiw of LH on BBC. He said the reason why he switched to a 3 stopper was because he had a huge lockup defending against Alonso. He said he came in immediately afterwards, suggesting he would have gone longer on the SS. He admitted he didn't think he would have been in the mix up front regardless.

btw, he also said he is very optimistic about some coming upgrades in the next weeks...

Edited by femi, 17 March 2013 - 16:25.


#3879 F1Champion

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:59

An impressive start but tempered by the fact that they went for a 2 stopper rather than 3. I think on a 3 stopper they would have been up there with Red Bull at least. Hamilton must be happy as I don't think he thought that he would be finishing higher than a McLaren already!

The car is quick in wet conditions and isn't a tyre eater. Just very surprised that they went for a 2 stopper on a green track.

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#3880 TomNokoe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:05

Strange sense of optimism. Feels like at every race we have nothing to lose, which is probably why they tried the 2 stop today.

#3881 Masenco

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:22

We have good pace and tear deg, as shown by the runs on the ss, just need to figure out how to do it on the mediums aswell!
Also the temp in malaysia may make our car the fastest- we just dont know!
Looks good so far though

#3882 pingu666

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:29

judging by all the cars, looks like you could be very good on one type of tyre, and bad on the other, or average on both. sutil had his super softs die in a couple of laps...

#3883 MercPower

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:38

Car looks very quick in single lap pace, we don't know about race pace yet because of the strange conditions and low temps.

One thing i noticed was how much lower the Lotus was to the Merc and other cars, the Lotus of Kimi was sparking so much but Grosjeans wasn't?

Could this explain Quali/Race pace difference? because Lotus were over second off and then because the fastest race car

#3884 meddo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:40

Not directly related to the car, but...
That black guy, who was constantly besides Lewis when he was at the garage, wasn¨t he a part of his old McLaren team? Also, there were couple of other guys from his old team (mechanics), if I saw correctly.

#3885 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:41

Not directly related to the car, but...
That black guy, who was constantly besides Lewis when he was at the garage, wasn¨t he a part of his old McLaren team? Also, there were couple of other guys from his old team (mechanics), if I saw correctly.


I thought I recognised him ... he's LH's trainer - isnt he?

#3886 1Devil1

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:42

We have good pace and tear deg, as shown by the runs on the ss, just need to figure out how to do it on the mediums aswell!
Also the temp in malaysia may make our car the fastest- we just dont know!
Looks good so far though


I didn't see the good pace. Mercedes tires lasted longer on the first stint, that was good, but the gain of it was zero to nothing because they lost so much time either because they couldn't go faster or they tried to be smart and go for one stop less. If the last point is true, all fuss about their better tire wear is nonsense, if RedBull or Lotus reduce their speed I guess they also would have been able to go more laps on the SuperSoft. Mercedes is in the same position as last year good raw pace, but race pace is mediocre, and no way the will pop out to be the fastest in Malaysia unless it rains, I will eat my hat in this case

#3887 amppatel

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:45

Not directly related to the car, but...
That black guy, who was constantly besides Lewis when he was at the garage, wasn¨t he a part of his old McLaren team? Also, there were couple of other guys from his old team (mechanics), if I saw correctly.


LOL

Also what mechanics? I hope he hasn't as last year his car always had problems!

Edited by amppatel, 17 March 2013 - 17:45.


#3888 Markn93

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:45

If the team can put a 'perfect' weekend together I see no reason why they can't win races/be on the podium this year. Raikonnen may come out and be as fast as Grosjean next week for all we know, so consistency and adapting to the various challenges (usually weather/tyre related) each weekend throws at you will be the challenge. Driver-wise these guys will get the maximum from the car, let's just hope the team are able to hold up their part of the bargain.

#3889 meddo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:49

LOL

Also what mechanics? I hope he hasn't as last year his car always had problems!

I am sorry, I hope that this is not politically incorrect term.
Some of the faces working around his car were too familiar, from hopelessly observing McLaren garage for the last couple of seasons.

#3890 meddo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:50

I thought I recognised him ... he's LH's trainer - isnt he?

No, trainer is Finnish. I can't recall his name.
EDIT:
Aki Hiintsa

Edited by meddo, 17 March 2013 - 17:50.


#3891 amppatel

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:53

No, trainer is Finnish. I can't recall his name.
EDIT:
Aki Hiintsa


No - it was Antti Vierula

#3892 Moore

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:57

No, trainer is Finnish. I can't recall his name.
EDIT:
Aki Hiintsa

Not sure who his new trainer is, but it was Antti Vierula and he is now Sergio Perez's trainer.

#3893 MercPower

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:01

I am sorry, I hope that this is not politically incorrect term.
Some of the faces working around his car were too familiar, from hopelessly observing McLaren garage for the last couple of seasons.


Lewis has taken some members with him to Mercedes yes

#3894 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:13

Lewis has taken some members with him to Mercedes yes


I wonder how that works exactly

Do they have reduced garden leave?

Do they request to follow or does Lewis ask?

Does Merc match their wages or increase it or say, erm, don't we already have engineers?

What about the merc engineers that want to become race day engineers and have just being gazumped

#3895 Guizotia

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:42

Lewis has taken some members with him to Mercedes yes


Source? Or just your opinion?

#3896 Tauhid

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:42

the key word both Mercedes and Red Bull are looking for is "temperature". The tyres on warmer temperatures on both the Merc and the Red Bull will truly show their potential. Having said that, I actually think the Ferrari is the fastest car on the race this year and given how much improvement Ferrari can make in a short time, I have them as favorites for the WDC, to be WCC contenders they must stop treating Massa like just another POS. Red Bull will come out strong in the next few races, their tyres were fading too early even in these cold temperatures and they lacked the genuine pace which was a shocker. Mercedes trails the top 3 teams but I can see them progressing if they continue further developments. Podium finishes will come sooner than later but I don't see them winning a race unless they have a inch perfect weekend and have hopes of the other teams screwing something up. Though Lewis lost 2 places, I actually enjoyed his race. I wish he could do the 2 stops like Kimi, then a podium finish could have been achieved, but I think he ruined the tyres on a lockup against Fernando thus having to pit early for his 2nd stop.

Mercedes didn't screw up the plans, they just underestimated Lewis. They thought he wouldn't go racing and would have rather coasted away, I was impressed with the pace at the last few laps, to hold off a Red Bull and beat Sutil in great fashion was brilliant. Also loved the tussle between him and Alonso and Raikonnen. Clean, professional and brilliant driving by all.

#3897 2ms

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:47

I wonder why so many trainers in F1 are Finnish.

#3898 MercPower

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:48

Source? Or just your opinion?



Just a fact that i know :)

#3899 Guizotia

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:50

Just a fact that i know :)


How do you know it without a source outside of your head? Something light, sound, etc must have reached your head from an external source, otherwise you mean that you are psychic.

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#3900 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:04

How do you know it without a source outside of your head? Something light, sound, etc must have reached your head from an external source, otherwise you mean that you are psychic.


All these just because he didn't want to share his source or reveal who he is?

Edited by femi, 17 March 2013 - 19:05.