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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#3901 BernieEc

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:10

Guys, I actually think it was a good race and a decent performance from LH. Felt sorry for Nico Rosberg. The pace on the SS was extremely good. Although having said that I think they miscalculated the pace on the mediums. It was also a good call to change from 2 stop strategy to a 3 stop as that is what really guaranteed the 5th place. Although if planned from the start with a 3 stop strategy, then I think a 3rd position was possible especially when you take into account the pace on the supersofts.

The ferrari race pace is quite good and the Lotus is a tyre whisperer once again. Although I think in warmer conditions the Mercedes will be shining through as I think the cooler conditions had something to do with pace on the mediums. having said that, I also think it will reveal the true pace of the red bull.

if the weather is good throughout next weekend, I think Malaysia will provide a decent assessment of where the Merc is (qualy and race pace wise)

I am quite happy with the result after reflecting on it and I would have wanted a podium but I can't help but thinking back to september when LH signed and what some of the doom mongers were prophesying.e.g, Jenson will lap Lewis, they will be scrapping witht he toro rosso, etc....well the Merc today finished ahead of a redbull, both Mclarens which is more than what some said in september.

The season is young and we have 18 races to go. LH is only 15 points from the lead :) it might be a stretch for WDC or WCC but stranf=ger things have happened. the bottomline is I think the merc is in the mix and the next race will be crucial.

Edited by BernieEc, 17 March 2013 - 19:12.


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#3902 Grundle

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:10

I hope we see Ferrari rear wing slats on the car for Malaysia. They have such good top speed, we don't have. Forget passive drs, and develop something that actually works please.

#3903 Kaosoner

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:11

Fortunately this 5 Th place finish should give us some relief performance wise. the goal fixed by Toto Wolff can be well reach for WCC, the first arrow shot by Lewis confirm that it's not at bad car at all, but there is a long way to go to consistently deliver podium, rosberg DNF is not what we want to see, they have to fix the reliability of the car very quickly. The stint on SS was pretty impressive from lewis . Hope they'll bring updates in Sepang, and sort the relative lack of pace on Medium tyres.

#3904 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:18

I hope we see Ferrari rear wing slats on the car for Malaysia. They have such good top speed, we don't have. Forget passive drs, and develop something that actually works please.


and you are certain the RW slots increase the top speed, yes? I wonder how that top speed helped them to qualify behind Mercedes?

Edited by Szoelloe, 17 March 2013 - 19:24.


#3905 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:22

Can't they replace Rosbergs gear box for free now?

I think everythings okay, Lewis seemed pretty contented and if it was bad he'd be in a gloom.

#3906 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:25

Can't they replace Rosbergs gear box for free now?

I think everythings okay, Lewis seemed pretty contented and if it was bad he'd be in a gloom.


they said it was an electrical problem. I don't think it has to be replaced.


#3907 alframsey

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:32

they said it was an electrical problem. I don't think it has to be replaced.

Yeah on the BBC highlights they mentioned something about it being a suppliers error in a battery?

#3908 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:33

Guys, I actually think it was a good race and a decent performance from LH. Felt sorry for Nico Rosberg. The pace on the SS was extremely good. Although having said that I think they miscalculated the pace on the mediums. It was also a good call to change from 2 stop strategy to a 3 stop as that is what really guaranteed the 5th place. Although if planned from the start with a 3 stop strategy, then I think a 3rd position was possible especially when you take into account the pace on the supersofts.

The ferrari race pace is quite good and the Lotus is a tyre whisperer once again. Although I think in warmer conditions the Mercedes will be shining through as I think the cooler conditions had something to do with pace on the mediums. having said that, I also think it will reveal the true pace of the red bull.

if the weather is good throughout next weekend, I think Malaysia will provide a decent assessment of where the Merc is (qualy and race pace wise)

I am quite happy with the result after reflecting on it and I would have wanted a podium but I can't help but thinking back to september when LH signed and what some of the doom mongers were prophesying.e.g, Jenson will lap Lewis, they will be scrapping witht he toro rosso, etc....well the Merc today finished ahead of a redbull, both Mclarens which is more than what some said in september.

The season is young and we have 18 races to go. LH is only 15 points from the lead :) it might be a stretch for WDC or WCC but stranf=ger things have happened. the bottomline is I think the merc is in the mix and the next race will be crucial.


Last stint: If Ferrari's race pace is superior, Merc is certainly promising on mediums that are not fully up to temperature, no?

39 P 1:49.336
40 1:36.435
41 1:29.725
42 1:49.705 42 1:31.184
43 1:36.985 43 1:29.649
44 1:30.019 44 1:30.118
45 1:29.759 45 1:31.494
46 1:29.925 46 1:31.544
47 1:29.938 47 1:31.671
48 1:29.931 48 1:30.839
49 1:30.374 49 1:30.577
50 1:31.049 50 1:30.333
51 1:32.255 51 1:30.410
52 1:30.477 52 1:29.582
53 1:30.408 53 1:29.560
54 1:30.646 54 1:29.876
55 1:30.761 55 1:31.858
56 1:30.688 56 1:31.176
57 1:31.626 57 1:31.205
58 1:32.054 58 1:32.636
Hamilton Alonso

Edited by Szoelloe, 17 March 2013 - 19:40.


#3909 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:36

I don't think we were on the pace of the Ferrari, Redbull or Lotus today but I think the chosen strategy made it seem worse then it was. They could have being more aggressive but its the 1st race.

#3910 Masenco

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:36

I would have loved to have seen what the merc could have done if they went on a 3 stop from the start, maybe 4th or a 3rd would have been possible.

Its a bit of a mistery to me as to why they pitted Lewis when the ss was still going faster, when youve got the tyre working really well, surely you should use it be on it for as long as possible? Having said that im sure they werent aware that the meds wouldnt work so well for them.

Bodes well for the future though, theres clearly front running pace in the car, as can seen by the ss, just got to make it work on all the tyres like that.

#3911 Guizotia

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:38

All these just because he didn't want to share his source or reveal who he is?


So now it's a secret which staff have apparently moved with Lewis, and sources need to be protected?

This isn't Watergate.

Is that another one of your accounts?

Edited by Guizotia, 17 March 2013 - 19:39.


#3912 OoxLox

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:41

Yeah on the BBC highlights they mentioned something about it being a suppliers error in a battery?


As far as I know they can still replace it without penalty for the next race as the car didn't finish. If they have plenty of spares and no money worries, I expect they'd fit a brand new one for the next race as a matter of course if they're allowed to whether there's a problem or not, as the current box has a few hundred km on it now.

#3913 chrcol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:47

I didn't see the good pace. Mercedes tires lasted longer on the first stint, that was good, but the gain of it was zero to nothing because they lost so much time either because they couldn't go faster or they tried to be smart and go for one stop less. If the last point is true, all fuss about their better tire wear is nonsense, if RedBull or Lotus reduce their speed I guess they also would have been able to go more laps on the SuperSoft. Mercedes is in the same position as last year good raw pace, but race pace is mediocre, and no way the will pop out to be the fastest in Malaysia unless it rains, I will eat my hat in this case


sadly I am inclinded to agree.

The question is what makes a fast qualifier a slow racer?

I dont get that at all.

I mean slow from the off, on the 1st laps lewis couldnt handle cars he qualified ahead off, ferraris and raikkonen.

#3914 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:51

sadly I am inclinded to agree.

The question is what makes a fast qualifier a slow racer?

I dont get that at all.

I mean slow from the off, on the 1st laps lewis couldnt handle cars he qualified ahead off, ferraris and raikkonen.


It has been debated for several pages now , has been written about, and you say you do not get it at all.

Edited by Szoelloe, 17 March 2013 - 19:53.


#3915 Masenco

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:53

sadly I am inclinded to agree.

The question is what makes a fast qualifier a slow racer?

I dont get that at all.

I mean slow from the off, on the 1st laps lewis couldnt handle cars he qualified ahead off, ferraris and raikkonen.


Slow at tyre warmup, it seems it takes them a few laps to get upto speed, hence why the ferraris and lotus looked so fast at the beginning of the race.

Also, they werent so good on the mediums today, but you can see the pace is there from the ss runs.

#3916 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:53

Its a bit of a mistery to me as to why they pitted Lewis when the ss was still going faster, when youve got the tyre working really well, surely you should use it be on it for as long as possible? Having said that im sure they werent aware that the meds wouldnt work so well for them.


I think that was due to the big lockup when defending against Alonso

#3917 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:55

Slow at tyre warmup, it seems it takes them a few laps to get upto speed, hence why the ferraris and lotus looked so fast at the beginning of the race.

Also, they werent so good on the mediums today, but you can see the pace is there from the ss runs.


If I recall, Costa's Ferraris had the slow tyre warmup.

But in warmer tracks it might be of benefit.

#3918 Masenco

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:59

I think that was due to the big lockup when defending against Alonso


That was on the mediums, i was referring to the first stint in the supersofts when lewis was going faster and faster every lap.

If I recall, Costa's Ferraris had the slow tyre warmup.

But in warmer tracks it might be of benefit.


Hopefully brother!

#3919 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:06

I am sorry, I hope that this is not politically incorrect term.
Some of the faces working around his car were too familiar, from hopelessly observing McLaren garage for the last couple of seasons.


No ... its fine.

How do you know it without a source outside of your head? Something light, sound, etc must have reached your head from an external source, otherwise you mean that you are psychic.


MercPower said, some time ago, that he/she works in a dept of Macca which is not the race team .... and has said a few things here and there that make me tend to believe that.

Dont know why he/she is being so coy today.

[OT]

Edited by jjcale, 17 March 2013 - 20:09.


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#3920 MercPower

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:13

Couple of issues today

Lewis was driving to a certain lap time and trying for 2 stops which didn't work.

He was actually really fast on the option tyre but he didn't use his pace until lap 7 or 8 losing alot of time,

Same thing on the second set of tyres, he was driving to a certain lap time and looking after the tyres.

The conditions were tough and the tyres grained.

In my opinion they should of gone 3 stop aggressive straight from the off

#3921 femi

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:20

That was on the mediums, i was referring to the first stint in the supersofts when lewis was going faster and faster every lap.



Hopefully brother!



He was losing more than 1sec/lap to Alonso and co

#3922 rhukkas

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:21

In my opinion they should of gone 3 stop aggressive straight from the off


Wait a second there! Mercedes tried to do what turned out to be THE racing winning strategy. They had the right idea, but not quite the tyre deg on the mediums. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but 10 laps into the stint on the soft Hamilton was looking very good indeed. Just didn't quite turn out good for them.

#3923 Grundle

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:22

If I recall, Costa's Ferraris had the slow tyre warmup.

But in warmer tracks it might be of benefit.

This post massively reminded me of the Ferrari f150 tyre characteristics. Fast on softs, slower on hards.

#3924 Coops3

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:22

Couple of issues today

Lewis was driving to a certain lap time and trying for 2 stops which didn't work.

He was actually really fast on the option tyre but he didn't use his pace until lap 7 or 8 losing alot of time,

Same thing on the second set of tyres, he was driving to a certain lap time and looking after the tyres.

The conditions were tough and the tyres grained.

In my opinion they should of gone 3 stop aggressive straight from the off


I agree, but I think it's easy to say that with hindsight. The tyres were always going to be an unknown today.

#3925 rhukkas

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:23

He was losing more than 1sec/lap to Alonso and co


We are assuming that is because they were trying to go long into the stint UNLIKE Alonso and co. His times later in the stint proved their was inherent performance on that tyre

#3926 pinkypants

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:24

I'm happy with a strategy that didn't quite work out but would have led to fairly similar outcomes to a better 'alternative' strategy. Compared to McLaren's tactical blunders, I'll take this!!

#3927 Darth Sidious

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:25

No ... its fine.



MercPower said, some time ago, that he/she works in a dept of Macca which is not the race team .... and has said a few things here and there that make me tend to believe that.

Dont know why he/she is being so coy today.



You did watch the race right?
I'd imagine most of McLaren either hit the bottle to drown their sorrows or are contemplating chasing express trains head on......

(j/k)

#3928 Darth Sidious

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:28

This post massively reminded me of the Ferrari f150 tyre characteristics. Fast on softs, slower on hards.


Fixable much?
Or are we talking a season long trait here?

Am I correct in thinking that the Merc engines are thirstier than Renault and Ferrari so the Mercs and Macs are slower at the start of the race by virtue of having to run more fuel in order to get to the end?

#3929 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:32

This post massively reminded me of the Ferrari f150 tyre characteristics. Fast on softs, slower on hards.


That means a proper 3 stop strategy might have worked out worse?

Surprisingly Merc might need warmer temperatures.

#3930 surbjits

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:34

Am I correct in thinking that the Merc engines are thirstier than Renault and Ferrari so the Mercs and Macs are slower at the start of the race by virtue of having to run more fuel in order to get to the end?


The Merc engines definitely provide more power, so I'd assume so.

#3931 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:35

I'm surprised no-ones developed a variable geometry exhaust system.

That they can adjust with a screw or something the direction of the exhaust plume, colder temperatures direct a small amount and warm up the tyres better.

#3932 MercPower

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:42

No ... its fine.



MercPower said, some time ago, that he/she works in a dept of Macca which is not the race team .... and has said a few things here and there that make me tend to believe that.

Dont know why he/she is being so coy today.

[OT]


I do work at MTC but have nothing to do with the race team, my job is not that great but it's a fun environment and we hear things all the time.

#3933 sblinx

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:44

considering how well the supersofts were working in these coldish temperatures, do you think another set should have been used for the last stint??
was it worth a try??

Edited by sblinx, 17 March 2013 - 20:45.


#3934 V3TT3L

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:52

I'm surprised no-ones developed a variable geometry exhaust system.

That they can adjust with a screw or something the direction of the exhaust plume, colder temperatures direct a small amount and warm up the tyres better.

Surprise no-ones developed something illegal :confused:

#3935 study

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:53

It wouldn't be active, but could alter on setup time.

#3936 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 21:08

You did watch the race right?
I'd imagine most of McLaren either hit the bottle to drown their sorrows or are contemplating chasing express trains head on......

(j/k)


No ... they are probably applying for jobs at Merc!

Am slightly disappointed in the result for LH .... and am expecting better in Mal if it stays dry.


#3937 robefc

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 21:59

considering how well the supersofts were working in these coldish temperatures, do you think another set should have been used for the last stint??
was it worth a try??


I hadn't even thought of that!

I guess they thought too much of a risk and there was a big gap to massa.

I was very excted seeing how far Lewis went on SSs and how far Sutil took the mediums on full tanks, sadly didn't work but but definitely right to try it imo.

Edited by robefc, 17 March 2013 - 22:01.


#3938 JonathanProc

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 22:14

The car looks like a good solid base that the team can build from. It's suggested (in this AMUS article) that the interlinked suspension system works better through corners with elevation changes (T9 in Sepang springs to mind). So maybe the systems potential hasn't fully been shown on the flat streets of Melbourne. This is all just speculation however.

Also, the reliability concerns me slightly. All I'm hoping for this year is for the Merc to perform consistently so they have a good change of scoring points in most races.

If Lewis was so consistent that he finished every race in the position he did this race then he'd score exactly the same amount of points he did last year at McLaren! :p

#3939 Markn93

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 22:19

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#3940 g1n

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:04

The car looks like a good solid base that the team can build from. It's suggested (in this AMUS article) that the interlinked suspension system works better through corners with elevation changes (T9 in Sepang springs to mind). So maybe the systems potential hasn't fully been shown on the flat streets of Melbourne. This is all just speculation however.

Also, the reliability concerns me slightly. All I'm hoping for this year is for the Merc to perform consistently so they have a good change of scoring points in most races.

If Lewis was so consistent that he finished every race in the position he did this race then he'd score exactly the same amount of points he did last year at McLaren! :p


After 3 years they need to threaten for podiums and wins not pootle around 5th-7th place like they have done in the last 3 years....

#3941 JonathanProc

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:16

After 3 years they need to threaten for podiums and wins not pootle around 5th-7th place like they have done in the last 3 years....


At no point in my post do I say that they can't threaten for podiums and wins. Scoring points = Anywhere from 10th to 1st!

#3942 PretentiousBread

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:54

From what I've read the consensus seems to be that the Merc was very good on the super softs given their amount of laps completed on them and their end of stint lap times, but what about the first laps? Hamilton was 1s+ slower than Raikkonen or Alonso at the beginning and clearly didn't have the pace, and Nico was no better. It reminded me of Hamilton's performance at Melbourne last year, his early stint pace was poor but overall his full stint was all right. So is Hamilton's early lack of pace being put down to him deliberately driving to a delta or is it to do with his/Merc's tyre management?

#3943 Masenco

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 00:10

From what I've read the consensus seems to be that the Merc was very good on the super softs given their amount of laps completed on them and their end of stint lap times, but what about the first laps? Hamilton was 1s+ slower than Raikkonen or Alonso at the beginning and clearly didn't have the pace, and Nico was no better. It reminded me of Hamilton's performance at Melbourne last year, his early stint pace was poor but overall his full stint was all right. So is Hamilton's early lack of pace being put down to him deliberately driving to a delta or is it to do with his/Merc's tyre management?


The general consensus is that the merc was not able to warm the tyres up as quickly as the other cars, hence the initial lack of pace- though I dont think the team has confirmed this or explained the reason why.



#3944 SCEPurple

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 00:44

The general consensus is that the merc was not able to warm the tyres up as quickly as the other cars, hence the initial lack of pace- though I dont think the team has confirmed this or explained the reason why.


It strikes me as being confusing that if driving to a delta is not warming the tyres enough... Why not just drive faster and brake later to generate more heat?

Also confusing: So the car is comfortable on the softs and manages to make them last, struggles on a medium tyre but seems to also excel, particularly in Rosberg's hands, in the wet..

The Pirelli rubber is a cruel mistress

#3945 akshay380

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:59

I feel Costa and Elliot can do wonders here, Costa's tire management skills coupled with Elliots Aero. Also some more work towards reliability by Geoff. Lewis and Nico will will take care of pushing the car to the limits #BelieveInMercedes :up:

Edited by Buttoneer, 18 March 2013 - 20:58.


#3946 Boxerevo

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:29

The car looks like a good solid base that the team can build from. It's suggested (in this AMUS article) that the interlinked suspension system works better through corners with elevation changes (T9 in Sepang springs to mind). So maybe the systems potential hasn't fully been shown on the flat streets of Melbourne. This is all just speculation however.

Also, the reliability concerns me slightly. All I'm hoping for this year is for the Merc to perform consistently so they have a good change of scoring points in most races.

If Lewis was so consistent that he finished every race in the position he did this race then he'd score exactly the same amount of points he did last year at McLaren! :p

200 points,not bad.

#3947 bauss

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:20

I sense the car was simply not optimized for race pace on the tires given...

how much will it mean, if the cars were optimized?

we will see in coming races, I expect them to be better, LH's tweet also confirms that... still overall, not a bad debut.



#3948 kedia990

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:47

I really don't think that Merc has any problems getting heat into the tyres, otherwise I really doubt Rosberg would be thrashing the living hell out of everyone in wet & damp conditions. In dry, I couldn't see any twitchiness in the car atleast. The most plausible explanation is that Merc asked its drivers to drive to a delta, one that turned out to be very conservative. Raikkonen was on the same two stop strategy from the beginning, but drove a second a lap faster. His tyres held up fine, and Merc could have done the same (or somewhere close, assuming Merc's race pace wasn't as good as Lotus'). Also, to those who say that the 2nd set of mediums weren't good and went off quickly (after 10 laps), I really don't think they did, its just that Ham had a really good gap to the car behind and wouldn't lose track position by switching to a newer set, lest the current set fall off the cliff towards the end of the race.
Overall, I think good tyre management, pace, temperature sensitivity, everything - apart from slightly conservative strategic calls, which I assure you won't happen in Malaysia. I hate using this phrase, coz I believe in results and not "potential", but here it is anyway - Keep the faith!

#3949 BigCHrome

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:00

I really don't think that Merc has any problems getting heat into the tyres, otherwise I really doubt Rosberg would be thrashing the living hell out of everyone in wet & damp conditions. In dry, I couldn't see any twitchiness in the car atleast. The most plausible explanation is that Merc asked its drivers to drive to a delta, one that turned out to be very conservative. Raikkonen was on the same two stop strategy from the beginning, but drove a second a lap faster. His tyres held up fine, and Merc could have done the same (or somewhere close, assuming Merc's race pace wasn't as good as Lotus'). Also, to those who say that the 2nd set of mediums weren't good and went off quickly (after 10 laps), I really don't think they did, its just that Ham had a really good gap to the car behind and wouldn't lose track position by switching to a newer set, lest the current set fall off the cliff towards the end of the race.
Overall, I think good tyre management, pace, temperature sensitivity, everything - apart from slightly conservative strategic calls, which I assure you won't happen in Malaysia. I hate using this phrase, coz I believe in results and not "potential", but here it is anyway - Keep the faith!


It's Brawn who said they couldn't get the tires into the window.

#3950 kedia990

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 05:28

It's Brawn who said they couldn't get the tires into the window.


K 2 viewpoints:
1. They couldn't get the tyres into the window, hence drove slowly.
2. They drove to such a slow delta that they couldn't get the tyres into the window.

Either statement would concur with what Brawn said (to which I request a link, please). Because they tested in Jerez & Barcelona in much colder conditions and didn't encounter any such problems, my feeling is that it's probably the latter.