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Mercedes-AMG 2013 W04


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#3951 peroa

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:15

From what I've read the consensus seems to be that the Merc was very good on the super softs given their amount of laps completed on them and their end of stint lap times, but what about the first laps? Hamilton was 1s+ slower than Raikkonen or Alonso at the beginning and clearly didn't have the pace, and Nico was no better. It reminded me of Hamilton's performance at Melbourne last year, his early stint pace was poor but overall his full stint was all right. So is Hamilton's early lack of pace being put down to him deliberately driving to a delta or is it to do with his/Merc's tyre management?

Well, it was the same at mac, first few laps were always pretty slow, probably a combination of taking care of tyres and more fuel.

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#3952 Guizotia

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:07

I do work at MTC but have nothing to do with the race team, my job is not that great but it's a fun environment and we hear things all the time.


Cleaner?

#3953 chrcol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:07

Wait a second there! Mercedes tried to do what turned out to be THE racing winning strategy. They had the right idea, but not quite the tyre deg on the mediums. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but 10 laps into the stint on the soft Hamilton was looking very good indeed. Just didn't quite turn out good for them.


Yeah this si why I am not quite buying this explanation.

raikonnen was on 2 stops.

The possible theories I have are.

Lewis trashed his soft tryes more than the other teams hence struggling at the start BUT if that was the case then how did he manage so many laps on them?
Merc have warming up issues with tryes so struggled at start of race, this is possible given what we seen.
Lewis/team was very paranoid and conservative at the start worrying about tyre deg so drove slower, then later he realised everyone else was pitting and decided to up his pace.

Later in race he did seem to match alonso and vettel a lot on live timing but occasionally they would pull faster laps out of the bag and raikonnen was in a league of his own on a 2 stop.

The critical mistake for me was abandoning the 2 stop and wrecking his first set of hards defending against alonso. He only had to do another 5-6 laps after that point to make the 2 stop work. I think he thought his tryes were going off the way alonso caught up when simply was alonso was just faster.

#3954 superdelphinus

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:09

I don't think he wrecked them because of defending alonso

#3955 chrcol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:11

It strikes me as being confusing that if driving to a delta is not warming the tyres enough... Why not just drive faster and brake later to generate more heat?

Also confusing: So the car is comfortable on the softs and manages to make them last, struggles on a medium tyre but seems to also excel, particularly in Rosberg's hands, in the wet..

The Pirelli rubber is a cruel mistress


I suspect a possibility is lewis drives to a delta from start to finish.

Other teams start agressive, do true racing at the start and only when an order is established they switch to delta, that can explain eg. vettel starting strong in races but then dropping off.

#3956 chrcol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:12

I don't think he wrecked them because of defending alonso


he did a big lock and drove agressively for a few corners, that certianly took life out of the tryes.

There is a reason alonso in similiar situations doesnt fight, and later lewis and the team learned when they let massa by.

#3957 SunnyENTP

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:14

considering how well the supersofts were working in these coldish temperatures, do you think another set should have been used for the last stint??
was it worth a try??



Pretty pointless considering 4th place was over 20seconds ahead with so few laps left. and dont forget he had to fight hard to overtake Sutil who was ahead on softs. Look how Sutil damaged his tyres defending against lewis.

#3958 BernieEc

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:27

I hope lewis is right and they can bridge the gap

http://www.gptoday.c...bridge_the_gap/

#3959 Mauseri

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:32

I'm sure Mercedes have a nice fast car, but the team will be much ups and downs during the year. Next race already could be very different result. It just seems that qualifying is still their speciality over the race. No doubt that they will take sevelar poles, and also fight for some wins when they can start from the front.

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#3960 CarbonF

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:36

Although i'm happy with the way W04 has turned out, i'm still disappointed given the fact that they started working on this car long ago yet are still lagging behind. I do understand that they were long way off...2 sec/1 sec claw back etc etc, but still it doesnt give an excuse given the range of people that were working on this car.
Especially the reliability, gutted for Nico.


#3961 teejay

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:50

Although i'm happy with the way W04 has turned out, i'm still disappointed given the fact that they started working on this car long ago yet are still lagging behind. I do understand that they were long way off...2 sec/1 sec claw back etc etc, but still it doesnt give an excuse given the range of people that were working on this car.
Especially the reliability, gutted for Nico.


2 seconds.

Count it.

It isnt much is is?

In F1 it is a LIFETIME.

The lack of pace was more a strategy issue than pace one.

#3962 CarbonF

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:01

2 seconds.

Count it.

It isnt much is is?

In F1 it is a LIFETIME.

The lack of pace was more a strategy issue than pace one.

I did not say it was "exactly two seconds". Chill dude i do know that even half a second is a lot of time, just because i joined new doesn't mean that i don't know the intricacies of F1. So i suggest you save your condescending tone.


#3963 SunnyENTP

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:08

Although i'm happy with the way W04 has turned out, i'm still disappointed given the fact that they started working on this car long ago yet are still lagging behind. I do understand that they were long way off...2 sec/1 sec claw back etc etc, but still it doesnt give an excuse given the range of people that were working on this car.
Especially the reliability, gutted for Nico.



Do you know how long Newey was working on the RB before it became a proven winner?

#3964 Speedoholic

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:16

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a "delta"?

#3965 CarbonF

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:28

Do you know how long Newey was working on the RB before it became a proven winner?

Very true, i do see your point, but it was just Newey, whereas here we had a lot of top guys.(now i don't want to start measuring Newey against heads) I'm sorry,...but i was expecting a little bit more, may be i would have been satisfied if both cars finished in points. Can you all say that you were happy with the result? satisfied...may be but not happy.

#3966 Masenco

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:30

Yeah this si why I am not quite buying this explanation.

raikonnen was on 2 stops.

The possible theories I have are.

Lewis trashed his soft tryes more than the other teams hence struggling at the start BUT if that was the case then how did he manage so many laps on them?
Merc have warming up issues with tryes so struggled at start of race, this is possible given what we seen.
Lewis/team was very paranoid and conservative at the start worrying about tyre deg so drove slower, then later he realised everyone else was pitting and decided to up his pace.

Later in race he did seem to match alonso and vettel a lot on live timing but occasionally they would pull faster laps out of the bag and raikonnen was in a league of his own on a 2 stop.

The critical mistake for me was abandoning the 2 stop and wrecking his first set of hards defending against alonso. He only had to do another 5-6 laps after that point to make the 2 stop work. I think he thought his tryes were going off the way alonso caught up when simply was alonso was just faster.


At that point there would have been no benefit in keeping to a 2 stop, unless the thought they could keep vettel and massa behind for the rest of the race.
The problem was that they lost so much time on the mediums

Edited by Masenco, 18 March 2013 - 09:31.


#3967 karlth

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:39

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a "delta"?


"Difference"

In racing it the difference between your current laptime and a target laptime. The target laptime can be for example your fastest lap, or your previous lap or a certain benchmark that you must try to match, etc.

Then there is the delta wing which is so called because of its shape.

#3968 amppatel

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:13

Why was Hamilton's start so bad? Was it due to the ECU?

#3969 Markn93

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:19

Why was Hamilton's start so bad? Was it due to the ECU?

It was actually ok, just the Ferraris were so quick it made it look slow. His was infinitely better than Webber's.

#3970 Timstr11

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:36

I hope lewis is right and they can bridge the gap

http://www.gptoday.c...bridge_the_gap/

Upcoming changes are significant enough for Hamilton to mention these so should be good.

#3971 mlsnoopy

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:24

5th was what I was expecting before the race. But it's hard not to be disappointed. I just think that the team should have done something better, don't know what, but the gap just looks bigger than it was.

#3972 race addicted

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:37

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a "delta"?


When talking about "driving to a delta" it means the laptime they have decided is the best for tyre life, for instance a second off your ultimate pace in the circumstances.

It was actually ok, just the Ferraris were so quick it made it look slow. His was infinitely better than Webber's.


No-one is comparing their start to Webber's, as that was a complete mess-up. Compared with the others, Ferrari and Vettel, it still wasn't very good.

#3973 MP422

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:44

It was actually ok, just the Ferraris were so quick it made it look slow. His was infinitely better than Webber's.


Yea, Those Ferrari's hooked up nicely. Ham and Ros need whatever they got.

#3974 Neomaster121

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:05

I don't get some of the pessimism i'm seeing on this forum 5th place isn't that bad a result and think it should have been 4th if they had planned to 3 stop from the start

I find it more encouraging that they thought they had the ability to 2 stop that shows they believe that there is a serious marked improvement in tire usage



#3975 David1976

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:11

I don't get some of the pessimism i'm seeing on this forum 5th place isn't that bad a result and think it should have been 4th if they had planned to 3 stop from the start

I find it more encouraging that they thought they had the ability to 2 stop that shows they believe that there is a serious marked improvement in tire usage


Ditto that. :up:

#3976 Nahnever

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:25

Two things:

1. Why are our pit stops so slow compared to the other top teams? They weren't bad, bt they were at least a second slower.

2. How the hell are those Ferraris so quick of the line, lol?

#3977 Markn93

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:30

No-one is comparing their start to Webber's, as that was a complete mess-up. Compared with the others, Ferrari and Vettel, it still wasn't very good.

He kept Fred behind through the start. That's not bad.The start, whilst unspectacular, was fine.

#3978 Markn93

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:32

Two things:

1. Why are our pit stops so slow compared to the other top teams? They weren't bad, bt they were at least a second slower.

2. How the hell are those Ferraris so quick of the line, lol?

Do you have the times because Merc's looked pretty good to the eye?

#3979 Nahnever

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:37

Do you have the times because Merc's looked pretty good to the eye?


Just what I saw for all three of Lewis' stops. They didn't break into the 3's once.

Edited by Nahnever, 18 March 2013 - 13:37.


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#3980 SCEPurple

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:39

Do you have the times because Merc's looked pretty good to the eye?


They were ~4.0-4.2 type times in yesterday's race.

#3981 Wingnut

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:40

He kept Fred behind through the start. That's not bad.The start, whilst unspectacular, was fine.


He kept him behind due to the gap between Lewis and Webber disappearing so Alonso had to back off. I've no doubt that ordinarily he would have taken him. What was a bigger concern for me is that the Merc was so slow in a straight line even with DRS open, he couldn't even get past Sutil with shot tyres in the DRS zones.

#3982 matzy

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:43

I was pleased by the performance, but concerned by the fact only one car finished.

I would have loved to see how Lewis may have performed if he didn't get mugged by the Ferraris at the start, and if the team decided on a three-stop from the beginning.

All being told, I see a marked improvement - I would love to see both cars finish next race, and preferably each being in the top 6 :)

#3983 jrg19

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:44

A double top 6 finish in Malaysia would be pretty sweet.

#3984 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:45

I don't get some of the pessimism i'm seeing on this forum 5th place isn't that bad a result and think it should have been 4th if they had planned to 3 stop from the start

I think P5 would definitely have been maximum on a 3-stop. There's nothing to suggest he would have been faster than either Ferrari or Vettel and he would have to have dealt with all the traffic issues those 3 faced, too.

#3985 Grigor

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:54

From http://184.106.145.7.....p Summary.pdf

HAM average time in pits 21.983
VET average time in pits 22.036
ALO average time in pits 21.701
RAI average time in pits 22.445

Looks pretty fine to me.

#3986 race addicted

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:08

He kept him behind due to the gap between Lewis and Webber disappearing so Alonso had to back off. I've no doubt that ordinarily he would have taken him.


Precisely. Talking about the get-away from the grid-slot, Hamilton's wasn't very good compared with those around him.

#3987 CarbonF

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:21

Two things:

1. Why are our pit stops so slow compared to the other top teams? They weren't bad, bt they were at least a second slower.

2. How the hell are those Ferraris so quick of the line, lol?

Exactly the same question on my mind! It was like the lights were directly connected to the ferraris!

#3988 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:22

For total pit times, Mercedes were 2nd fastest of all teams on average.

#3989 bonjon1979a

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:41

From the look of this, Hamilton should've been kept out on the super softs so he could make the two stops on the Medium.

http://intelligentf1...rix-race-notes/

He was getting quicker and quicker on them after the graining phase was over and the other teams weren't going that much quicker on the mediums. If he could've done four or five more laps they would've pulled off the two stop and I think a podium would've been on the cards for sure. I'll be really interested this weekend to see what happens because if there's no graining, the car looks good on race pace.

#3990 OoxLox

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:57

Precisely. Talking about the get-away from the grid-slot, Hamilton's wasn't very good compared with those around him.


The Merc got away pretty well I thought, and was made to look slow by the Ferraris, but they made everyone look bad and have been doing that for a while now. Remember Massa creaming everyone at Monza and almost getting past Lewis at the first corner? It's something all the teams are going to have to improve if they don't want to go on losing out to the Fezzas on the first lap.

#3991 Xeriks

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:58

From the look of this, Hamilton should've been kept out on the super softs so he could make the two stops on the Medium.

http://intelligentf1...rix-race-notes/

He was getting quicker and quicker on them after the graining phase was over and the other teams weren't going that much quicker on the mediums. If he could've done four or five more laps they would've pulled off the two stop and I think a podium would've been on the cards for sure. I'll be really interested this weekend to see what happens because if there's no graining, the car looks good on race pace.

Did you not see his stint on the medium tyre? it wasn't very impressive, sure the SS stint was pretty good, but they lost too much time at the start, the car looked terrible with heavy fuel onboard, seemed like they run more fuel than everyone else.

#3992 SR388

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:58

So what we walk away thinking is that the low temps didn't allow the Merc to really use the Mediums well?

I just want to make sure I am understanding.



What a change from last year, Merc was putting way too much heat into the rear tires.

#3993 bonjon1979a

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:05

Did you not see his stint on the medium tyre? it wasn't very impressive, sure the SS stint was pretty good, but they lost too much time at the start, the car looked terrible with heavy fuel onboard, seemed like they run more fuel than everyone else.


Yes, I saw that but it looked to me like that was because the tyres weren't at operating temperature rather than poor deg. Reminded me of Mclaren last year in china I think it was when on one tyre there was just no pace in the car because of the low temps. I think we'll see a completely different picture on lots of fronts in Malaysia and don't expect the same easy ride for Lotus who seemed to be the only team who didn't have problems with graining.

#3994 Seanspeed

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:05

From the look of this, Hamilton should've been kept out on the super softs so he could make the two stops on the Medium.

http://intelligentf1...rix-race-notes/

He was getting quicker and quicker on them after the graining phase was over and the other teams weren't going that much quicker on the mediums. If he could've done four or five more laps they would've pulled off the two stop and I think a podium would've been on the cards for sure. I'll be really interested this weekend to see what happens because if there's no graining, the car looks good on race pace.

Drivers tend to push at the end of the stints before they come in, so thats why you tend to see some quicker times there. It may look like the tires weren't falling off, but I'm sure they were. The supersofts are NOT a good race tire. I think its unlikely they could have gone much more than a couple laps more on them, much less 4 or 5. They probably would have started losing a ton more time to the people who pitted for fresh tires.

Mercedes went longer on the supersofts than anybody else, so they did what they needed to there for the possibility of 2-stopping. What hurt them was a lack of pace. No point in trying to do a stop less when you're losing half a second a lap.

I'm 90% sure Lewis finished as high as he could with that car. 2-stop or 3-stop, wouldn't have made a difference. They needed more speed to finish higher.

#3995 robefc

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:05

The general consensus is that the merc was not able to warm the tyres up as quickly as the other cars, hence the initial lack of pace- though I dont think the team has confirmed this or explained the reason why.


If that is true then reason to be optimistic for the rest of the season in warmer temperatures?

#3996 dans79

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:12

So what we walk away thinking is that the low temps didn't allow the Merc to really use the Mediums well?

I just want to make sure I am understanding.



What a change from last year, Merc was putting way too much heat into the rear tires.


I think it was a combination of the following.
1. compromised set up, as in they set the car up for the potential of wet running
2. tried to 2 stop so they where conservative with delta's
3. Conservative, because they had a lot of unknowns going into the race


#3997 Fonzey

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:15

As an ex-McLaren fan (Hamilton fan!) I would much prefer 3.5 second pitstops all season to 2.4second pitstops for 15 races and 9 second pitstops for the other 4...

#3998 bonjon1979a

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:16

Drivers tend to push at the end of the stints before they come in, so thats why you tend to see some quicker times there. It may look like the tires weren't falling off, but I'm sure they were. The supersofts are NOT a good race tire. I think its unlikely they could have gone much more than a couple laps more on them, much less 4 or 5. They probably would have started losing a ton more time to the people who pitted for fresh tires.

Mercedes went longer on the supersofts than anybody else, so they did what they needed to there for the possibility of 2-stopping. What hurt them was a lack of pace. No point in trying to do a stop less when you're losing half a second a lap.

I'm 90% sure Lewis finished as high as he could with that car. 2-stop or 3-stop, wouldn't have made a difference. They needed more speed to finish higher.


I agree he wouldn't've finished higher. Just think that the race could've been run better - the times were getting quicker on the super softs and they should've waited until they were losing pace, not gaining it, especially as they would've seen that the others were about to get stuck behind sutil.

#3999 jrg19

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:26

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=182879

Part 2 of the W04

(sorry if this isn't allowed)

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#4000 SR388

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:30

I think it was a combination of the following.
1. compromised set up, as in they set the car up for the potential of wet running
2. tried to 2 stop so they where conservative with delta's
3. Conservative, because they had a lot of unknowns going into the race



Cool. Thanks. I think it really showed some balls for them to try a two stop strategy. After being one of the worst on tires last year, to come out and try a two stopper is really putting a lot of confidence in the new car.