31 replies to this topic

[Spa65]

I have seen several quotes by Gurney as well as an interview where he says the same on camera. Namely that the best compliment he was ever paid was when Clark's father said that he was the only driver his son ever feared.

I have always wondered:

1. Was Clark referring to the forthcoming 1968 season when Gurney's V12 Weslake might be coming into its own. It was clearly the engine/chassis that looked best after the Ford DFV and perhaps might have been more powerful and more reliable giving Gurney a possible advantage? The rest of the new Ford DFV brigade would not be expected to be on a par with Chapman's second season 49, so only Gurney came into the equation (and possibly Amon at Ferrari, but not a real threat).

or

2. Did Clark think that, as a driver, Gurney was the most talented of his peers?

Dan was pretty emotional when talking about his friend. When watching Grand Prix's in the 60's I always thought; if Jim doesn't win, I hope it's Dan. I guess only Dan could judge Clark senior's comment accurately.

[Nick Planas]

I have seen several quotes by Gurney as well as an interview where he says the same on camera. Namely that the best compliment he was ever paid was when Clark's father said that he was the only driver his son ever feared.

I have always wondered:

1. Was Clark referring to the forthcoming 1968 season when Gurney's V12 Weslake might be coming into its own. It was clearly the engine/chassis that looked best after the Ford DFV and perhaps might have been more powerful and more reliable giving Gurney a possible advantage? The rest of the new Ford DFV brigade would not be expected to be on a par with Chapman's second season 49, so only Gurney came into the equation (and possibly Amon at Ferrari, but not a real threat).

or

2. Did Clark think that, as a driver, Gurney was the most talented of his peers?

Dan was pretty emotional when talking about his friend. When watching Grand Prix's in the 60's I always thought; if Jim doesn't win, I hope it's Dan. I guess only Dan could judge Clark senior's comment accurately.

I'm pretty sure he meant 2.

I've always thought that coming from anyone else it would sound like an arrogant statement; a man trying to make himself out to be a better racing driver than he is, but as I've never met, or been close to meeting, Dan Gurney, I have to judge it by the reaction of those who did / do know him. My impression as an outside observer is it is the statement of a man who was absolutely gobsmacked / flabberghasted /wiped out (use whichever expression suits your generation!) on hearing that remark from Clark Snr, and probably couldn't really understand why JC would have thought that.

I have always been a fan of Gurney's since I can remember, and I've posted before about seeing him avoid disaster at the 1970 British GP when we were absolutely convinced he was going to wipe out his car, Pesca's beached wreck of a Matra and several marshals at Clearways, yet he somehow managed to avoid everyone and resume the race despite having spun onto the wet and sloping grass - my father just looked on and said "THAT is real car control" and told us he couldn't think of anyone else who would have got out of that scrape.

I have always admired the way he continued in motor racing as a constructor; he has contributed so much to the sport on both sides of the atlantic.

I managed to watch the Clark documentary when it first came out without too much reaction, until Gurney broke down talking about Jimmy - that did it for me and I was unashamedly sniffling through the rest of it.

[David M. Kane]

I'm pretty sure he meant 2.

I've always thought that coming from anyone else it would sound like an arrogant statement; a man trying to make himself out to be a better racing driver than he is, but as I've never met, or been close to meeting, Dan Gurney, I have to judge it by the reaction of those who did / do know him. My impression as an outside observer is it is the statement of a man who was absolutely gobsmacked / flabberghasted /wiped out (use whichever expression suits your generation!) on hearing that remark from Clark Snr, and probably couldn't really understand why JC would have thought that.

I have always been a fan of Gurney's since I can remember, and I've posted before about seeing him avoid disaster at the 1970 British GP when we were absolutely convinced he was going to wipe out his car, Pesca's beached wreck of a Matra and several marshals at Clearways, yet he somehow managed to avoid everyone and resume the race despite having spun onto the wet and sloping grass - my father just looked on and said "THAT is real car control" and told us he couldn't think of anyone else who would have got out of that scrape.

I have always admired the way he continued in motor racing as a constructor; he has contributed so much to the sport on both sides of the atlantic.

I managed to watch the Clark documentary when it first came out without too much reaction, until Gurney broke down talking about Jimmy - that did it for me and I was unashamedly sniffling through the rest of it.

Nick I have been lucky enough meet Dan Gurney 3 times. IMO your assessment is spot on.

[Emery0323]

2. Did Clark think that, as a driver, Gurney was the most talented of his peers?

Dan was pretty emotional when talking about his friend. When watching Grand Prix's in the 60's I always thought; if Jim doesn't win, I hope it's Dan. I guess only Dan could judge Clark senior's comment accurately.

I would agree with the other posters that Clark's intended meaning was #2 - He thought Dan was a formidable driving talent.

Keep in mind that Dan Gurney's most successful years in F1 really weren't with his own Eagle team, they came during earlier, during 1961 - 1965 when he drove for Porsche and then Brabham. Clark had a lot of experience battling against Dan during that time, and that's where his impressions of Dan's driving talent were formed.

With Brabham, in particular, during 1963-65 he had good reliability, regular podium finishes, and two wins during the 1964 season. He was much more of a serious title contender with that team then he was with the Eagle, which was fast but never really sorted out its reliability problems.

[Graham Gauld]

I can confirm that Mr Clark's reaction was correct for not only was I present in the house when he said that but after the church service finished Jims mother had seen Dan at the funeral and asked me to invite Dan to the house where close family friends were going to meet. I did ask him but he was reluctant to go because he had rushed over from the States for the funeral and was fairly casually dressed. He said he felt he was not properly dressed but I assured him not to worry about that. Both Jim's father and mother were very straigfhtforward and honest and said what they meant. Previously Jim had also told me in conversations that Dan Gurney ws the driver he truly respected. He admitted that in the off road incident at Brands Hatch, when Clark flew on to the grass and out of the race trying to catch Dan, was simply because he was trying too hard. So, yes,Jim Clark had great respect for Dan.

[Peter Darley]

I can confirm that Mr Clark's reaction was correct for not only was I present in the house when he said that but after the church service finished Jims mother had seen Dan at the funeral and asked me to invite Dan to the house where close family friends were going to meet. I did ask him but he was reluctant to go because he had rushed over from the States for the funeral and was fairly casually dressed. He said he felt he was not properly dressed but I assured him not to worry about that. Both Jim's father and mother were very straigfhtforward and honest and said what they meant. Previously Jim had also told me in conversations that Dan Gurney ws the driver he truly respected. He admitted that in the off road incident at Brands Hatch, when Clark flew on to the grass and out of the race trying to catch Dan, was simply because he was trying too hard. So, yes,Jim Clark had great respect for Dan.

I would suggest reading the foreword by Dan Gurney in my book "Jim Clark - Life at Team Lotus".

[Doug Nye]

All of the above, I am absolutely certain. Jimmy's comment about Dan would have had absolutely nothing to do with any Weslake V12 development, nor any other mechanical contrivance. It would all have been about pound for pound talent, competitiveness, skill, artistry. Don't forget that JC and DSG had been team-mates as well as rivals. Jimmy's comment would have been much like Moss's in South Africa 1960/61 was it (?) when Stirl said much the same about Clark..."...the only man I fear". Just before Christmas a huge cardboard envelope was delivered here, about five foot square. To my astonishment, inside it we found a big photographic print, mounted on styrofoam board. It was from Dan and the photo shows a band from a party at Carel Godin de Beaufort's Maarsbergen Castle - I assume during the 1962 Dutch GP weekend. It shows Jimmy on drums, Bruce McLaren on keyboard, Graham Hill on piano accordion (!), Trev Taylor with maracas, De Beaufort on beautifully figured grand piano, and Dan on guitar. He has signed it "From the last of the mohicans"...

Long may he remain so.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 30 December 2012 - 10:19.

[Ray Bell]

And they didn't fold it for ease of delivery?

Doug, would it be possible that you might photograph and post such a wonderful relic of a time when the world was such a better place?

[roger.daltrey]

Doug - thats a great story - looking at my crushed xmas cards the postal service has changed somewhat

All of the above, I am absolutely certain. Jimmy's comment about Dan would have had absolutely nothing to do with any Weslake V12 development, nor any other mechanical contrivance. It would all have been about pound for pound talent, competitiveness, skill, artistry. Don't forget that JC and DSG had been team-mates as well as rivals. Jimmy's comment would have been much like Moss's in South Africa 1960/61 was it (?) when Stirl said much the same about Clark..."...the only man I fear". Just before Christmas a huge cardboard envelope was delivered here, about five foot square. To my astonishment, inside it we found a big photographic print, mounted on styrofoam board. It was from Dan and the photo shows a band from a party at Carel Godin de Beaufort's Maarsbergen Castle - I assume during the 1962 Dutch GP weekend. It shows Jimmy on drums, Bruce McLaren on keyboard, Graham Hill on piano accordion (!), Trev Taylor with maracas, De Beaufort on beautifully figured grand piano, and Dan on guitar. He has signed it "From the last of the mohicans"...

Long may he remain so.

DCN

[Spa65]

Many thanks for all the replies. I didn't expect such knowledgable insights from those who were actually there and there would appear to be no doubt that JC considered Dan the man to beat, and not because of the potential of the Eagle.

I think I've read most of the books on Clark, but haven't come across the one by Peter Darley. Peter, would it be possible to scan Gurney's foreword and post it to the forum?

Incidentally I can almost see JC's birthplace from my house - just a little hill between me and Kilmany.

Regards,

S.

[bradbury west]

I think I've read most of the books on Clark, but haven't come across the one by Peter Darley. Peter, would it be possible to scan Gurney's foreword and post it to the forum? Incidentally I can almost see JC's birthplace from my house - just a little hill between me and Kilmany. Regards, S.

The rest of the book is pretty good, too. As a Clark afficionado you will find it would sit very well on your shelves
http://www.coteriepr...forumtopicid=48
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 30 December 2012 - 13:45.

[Nick Planas]

All of the above, I am absolutely certain. Jimmy's comment about Dan would have had absolutely nothing to do with any Weslake V12 development, nor any other mechanical contrivance. It would all have been about pound for pound talent, competitiveness, skill, artistry. Don't forget that JC and DSG had been team-mates as well as rivals. Jimmy's comment would have been much like Moss's in South Africa 1960/61 was it (?) when Stirl said much the same about Clark..."...the only man I fear". Just before Christmas a huge cardboard envelope was delivered here, about five foot square. To my astonishment, inside it we found a big photographic print, mounted on styrofoam board. It was from Dan and the photo shows a band from a party at Carel Godin de Beaufort's Maarsbergen Castle - I assume during the 1962 Dutch GP weekend. It shows Jimmy on drums, Bruce McLaren on keyboard, Graham Hill on piano accordion (!), Trev Taylor with maracas, De Beaufort on beautifully figured grand piano, and Dan on guitar. He has signed it "From the last of the mohicans"...

Long may he remain so.

DCN

What a wonderful gesture, and a wonderful gift! I'm not envious or anything...

[Peter Darley]

The rest of the book is pretty good, too. As a Clark afficionado you will find it would sit very well on your shelves
http://www.coteriepr...forumtopicid=48
Roger Lund

Sold out in UK and Europe, although Hortons have a mint copy at £325.

[D-Type]

Sold out in UK and Europe, although Hortons have a mint copy at £325.

One would think that the publishers on seeing the demand would sense a profit in a second edition and ...

[Peter Darley]

One would think that the publishers on seeing the demand would sense a profit in a second edition and ...

It is not all about profit.

There is another book in the pipeline covering the same period, but not specifically Lotus.

[Mistron]

O/T. Here is a weird co-incidence. Having just moved to Fife, I googled to see where Kilmany is in relation to our new house. Google maps show one of the nearest villages to it to be called 'Clayton' - the name given to each of JYS homes over the years, a combination of his loves of Clay Pidgeon shooting and racing, I believe. Just a curious co-incidence.

[Michael Ferner]

One of the reasons I never liked Dan Gurney was and is his constant repetition of that compliment. Boy, am I tired of hearing that! Yes, Danny, that's really great, good for you, thanks for letting me know...

[PCC]

One of the reasons I never liked Dan Gurney was and is his constant repetition of that compliment. Boy, am I tired of hearing that! Yes, Danny, that's really great, good for you, thanks for letting me know...

"Constant" repetition? The story gets repeated again and again, but how many specific instances of his telling the story can you cite? Those who know him and post here seem to indicate that he is anything but a braggart. Might you be letting your obvious love of playing the contrarian get a bit silly?

[Michael Ferner]

Well, it's only my personal opinion, so I don't see why you should use the word "silly" in this context! Yes, I'm being contrary here, namely because I'm interested to see if I'm the only one thinking that way - these sort of threads have a habit to develop into, for want of a better word, "worshipping sessions" (which I personally find rather boring), and I want to encourage posts that may show some divers opinions. If they don't come, then fine, I will have learned something - I don't have no axe to grind.

As for the use of the word "constant", I cannot give evidence for that, of course, but the opening post seems to suggest the same:

I have seen several quotes by Gurney as well as an interview where he says the same on camera.

[jj2728]

Yes, I'm being contrary here, namely because I'm interested to see if I'm the only one thinking that way - these sort of threads have a habit to develop into, for want of a better word, "worshipping sessions" (which I personally find rather boring), and I want to encourage posts that may show some divers opinions. If they don't come, then fine, I will have learned something - I don't have no axe to grind.

I think you may be the only one here who thinks that way. My theory is that the 'worshipping sessions' are reserved for the RC section and that the majority of us who frequent TNF are of a certain age and dare I say maturity to look at things in their realistic context. Dan Gurney is and always has been as pleasant a person to meet and chat with as he was a tough competitior on the track. I don't know that you'll get nigh on anyone having a bad thing to say about the man.

[Nick Planas]

I think you may be the only one here who thinks that way. My theory is that the 'worshipping sessions' are reserved for the RC section and that the majority of us who frequent TNF are of a certain age and dare I say maturity to look at things in their realistic context. Dan Gurney is and always has been as pleasant a person to meet and chat with as he was a tough competitior on the track. I don't know that you'll get nigh on anyone having a bad thing to say about the man.

Well I expressed my sort of doubts further back in this thread, but am happy with people who know DG confirming my impressions, which is that he was surprised, etc to be given the compliment. Surely, if you see him interviewed, if people keep asking him "is it true that Jim Clark's father said...?" he's not going to lie, because he comes across as being an honest man. That's different from him going round bragging about it, in the style of, say, Mohammed Ali. Many people have mentioned the story; I've only once heard the direct source being Gurney himself, and if Graham Gauld was there and heard it too that's good enough for me.

It's not worship - just admiration

Edited by Nick Planas, 16 December 2022 - 11:52.

[Spa65]

Well, it's only my personal opinion, so I don't see why you should use the word "silly" in this context! Yes, I'm being contrary here, namely because I'm interested to see if I'm the only one thinking that way - these sort of threads have a habit to develop into, for want of a better word, "worshipping sessions" (which I personally find rather boring), and I want to encourage posts that may show some divers opinions. If they don't come, then fine, I will have learned something - I don't have no axe to grind.

As for the use of the word "constant", I cannot give evidence for that, of course, but the opening post seems to suggest the same:

QUOTE (Spa65 @ Dec 30 2012, 02:03)
I have seen several quotes by Gurney as well as an interview where he says the same on camera.


As the author of the original post I would like to make it clear that I in no way intended to suggest that Gurney ever sought to enhance his image by that conversation with Clark senior, or that he ever made repeated use of his conversation to a wider field, as has been insinuated by Michael Ferner. I believe that Gurney's widely quoted comments (or so it would appear, I only came across these comments twice) were delivered in good faith and that the wider display of these comments had nothing to do with Dan himself. I think the honesty of the sentiments were obvious and ensured that they would be displayed to a wider audience - but not by Dan.

Frankly, I find it a bit offensive that such an insinuation should be made.

[Simon Arron]

If I might add my tuppence...

Unlike Graham Gauld, whom I know well, I am much too young to have rubbed shoulders with the likes of Gurney or Clark in period. I have, though, had the privilege of interviewing Dan in more recent times.

On the first occasion, circa the late 1990s, Autosport asked me to write a piece about Gurney's champagne-spraying exploits at Le Mans in 1967. I emailed Dan's PA to request an interview and received a prompt reply proposing a suitable time and date. At the appointed hour, I was put straight through to Dan and received with great courtesy and good humour. It was like phoning an old mate, rather than somebody I'd never previously met. A couple of weeks after the feature appeared, Autosport called to alert me to the arrival in the office of a package. When I picked it up, it was a 1967 Le Mans poster, signed by Dan and with a personalised message thanking me for taking the trouble to write the story.

In the second instance, I was writing a piece for Motorsport News on America's long-term failure to cultivate an F1 driver (this would have been late 2003, at which point 10 years had passed since Michael Andretti's departure from McLaren). Needing a few thoughts from an eminent American. I emailed Dan's PA once more. She replied that he was away on a skiing trip in Colorado, but that she'd see what could be done: five minutes later I received another message, informing me that Dan was at a skiing chalet, awaiting my call, and here was the number. Once again, I was greeted like an old friend.

My experience reflects those of many colleagues who have dealt with Dan Gurney. He is a gracious, humble and engaging interviewee. That is not hero worship, but a simple reflection of the facts.

[Ralliart]

The photo of Jim Clark (on drums), Bruce McLaren (sitting behind an unidentifiable instrument), Graham Hill (on accordion), Trevor Taylor (on maracas), Dan Gurney (on acoustic bass) and Carel de Beaufort (on microphone, singing, it appears) appeared in a two-page spread several years ago in F1 Racing. According to the accompanying article, the photo was "supplied exclusively to F1 Racing by Dan Gurney" and "was taken on the eve of the 1961 Dutch Grand Prix." It appears that it was taken at a hotel (where the drivers stayed?), the instruments left onstage.
As regards Dan Gurney repeating the (Clark) tale, I've seen him in more than one interview mention it. It'd be interesting to know when Clark made that comment to his father. Then there'd be a better context, seems to me.

[Doug Nye]

Exactly as Simon says. During his frontline career Dan was always as friendly, but never really as obligingly chatty. In fact when he, Jack Brabham and Chief Mechanic Tim Wall were in the same team with Ron Tauranac their outfit was notoriously tight-lipped, almost Trappist Racing - seemingly run in total silence. Part of this was natural mind-set - more of it was the fiercely competitive determination not to give anything away, from which rivals might profit.

DCN

[Cargo]

Doug, would it be possible that you might photograph and post such a wonderful relic of a time when the world was such a better place?

seconded!!

[Nick Planas]

Exactly as Simon says. During his frontline career Dan was always as friendly, but never really as obligingly chatty. In fact when he, Jack Brabham and Chief Mechanic Tim Wall were in the same team with Ron Tauranac their outfit was notoriously tight-lipped, almost Trappist Racing - seemingly run in total silence. Part of this was natural mind-set - more of it was the fiercely competitive determination not to give anything away, from which rivals might profit.

DCN

Trappist Racing: Now there's a suggestion for a Formula E team...

[rl1856]

DSG For President !!! Seriously though, he came awfully close to the WDC in 1964. For want of better reliability he would have won 3 more races and most likely the championship. Retired while leading at Monaco. Spa..... Retired while leading Austria. Retired from 3rd place at Watkins Glen.

The Brabham team faded somewhat in 65 and Gurney went his own way in 66-67. But when the car was willing he was up front.

Best,

Ross

[Ray Bell]

And surely it's an indication of Jack Brabham's respect for Dan that he always gave the best equipment to his American driver?

And I think he even once stood down from driving to favour Dan...

[Emery0323]

DSG For President !!! Seriously though, he came awfully close to the WDC in 1964. For want of better reliability he would have won 3 more races and most likely the championship. Retired while leading at Monaco. Spa..... Retired while leading Austria. Retired from 3rd place at Watkins Glen.

The Brabham team faded somewhat in 65 and Gurney went his own way in 66-67. But when the car was willing he was up front.

It might be considered sacrilegous to some Gurney fans, but when you consider that the Brabham team won the WDC in '66 and '67 with the new 3-liter formula, maybe it would have been better off for Dan if he could have stayed with Jack's team for those years?

The Eagle F1 cars might never have been built, but Dan would have been a more likely contender for the WDC with the Brabham-Repco than he was with his own Eagle team.
It's another one of those counter-factual "what-ifs".

[Doug Nye]

Yeah but...

 

Dan had an itch he just had to scratch.  As had both Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren. Nothing 'counter-factual' about that.

 

DCN

[E1pix]

If I might add my tuppence...

Unlike Graham Gauld, whom I know well, I am much too young to have rubbed shoulders with the likes of Gurney or Clark in period. I have, though, had the privilege of interviewing Dan in more recent times.

On the first occasion, circa the late 1990s, Autosport asked me to write a piece about Gurney's champagne-spraying exploits at Le Mans in 1967. I emailed Dan's PA to request an interview and received a prompt reply proposing a suitable time and date. At the appointed hour, I was put straight through to Dan and received with great courtesy and good humour. It was like phoning an old mate, rather than somebody I'd never previously met. A couple of weeks after the feature appeared, Autosport called to alert me to the arrival in the office of a package. When I picked it up, it was a 1967 Le Mans poster, signed by Dan and with a personalised message thanking me for taking the trouble to write the story.

In the second instance, I was writing a piece for Motorsport News on America's long-term failure to cultivate an F1 driver (this would have been late 2003, at which point 10 years had passed since Michael Andretti's departure from McLaren). Needing a few thoughts from an eminent American. I emailed Dan's PA once more. She replied that he was away on a skiing trip in Colorado, but that she'd see what could be done: five minutes later I received another message, informing me that Dan was at a skiing chalet, awaiting my call, and here was the number. Once again, I was greeted like an old friend.

My experience reflects those of many colleagues who have dealt with Dan Gurney. He is a gracious, humble and engaging interviewee. That is not hero worship, but a simple reflection of the facts.

This doesn't surprise me at all, Simon.

There were two F5000 races at Road America in 1976. I photographed them both when turning from 15 to 16, and showed Kodachrome slides around at the second. When I showed them to Vern Schuppan, he grabbed Dan and a PR guy (Don Markland?) to take a look. I was nervous as hell and muttered something about the work being "okay for a kid, I guess," but Dan looked at me and said "Hey, these are GREAT!" AAR was my biggest print order of the eight or more teams that bought that day.

I don't recall my reply, but my response was to eventually make a career out of it. People like Dan are ever-rarer, and can affect thousands and thousands of lives. I've loved the man ever since.

Edited by E1pix, 09 February 2017 - 17:40.