19 replies to this topic

[ryan86]

A topic that was touched on in the Salt Walther thread and I thought it was maybe best served here so that those who wished could share they're memories of Salt in that particular thread, whilst those of wishing to look into where the entire grid still survives could so.

I noticed in reading the results of both the Silverstone 10/1/1978 and Brands Hatch 10/7/1978 that of all the starters Salt Walther was the 1st to pass away.

Is that some kind of a record for a starting line up (15 drivers in this case ) to all survive for 34 years after the racers were held?
I also realize the smaller sized field played a part too but still 34 years does show a remarkable amount of safety the sport has achieved

Also is there anyway to learn what race now is the oldest with an intact living starting lineup off all it's drivers

I think I'm right in thinking that Michele Alboreto is the driver with the most recent F1 start who has passed away. So we would have all survivors from the 1995 Brazilian GP (Senna started all races Alboreto missed during the the late 80's and early 90's)

And for NASCAR Dale Earnhardt Sr death removeds anything from 1979 to Daytona 2001 on the sprint cup circuit ( Bobby Hamilton sr) also removes a few later races.

[Richard Jenkins]

Yes, that's right, the Australian Grand Prix 1994 is the last Grand Prix where at least one driver is no longer with us, the first race of 1995 (Argentina? - sorry, my memory is hazy) is the longest time ago all the drivers are living. Hopefully it'll be a while yet before that changes....

When you consider other sports have lost people tragically young, or even the Indy 500 grids of the same era, it's a happy statistic. It's a shame it doesn't go back further.

[Michael Ferner]

We all know dirt track racing is deadly, right? Especially pre-WW2 dirt track racing. How about Williams Grove, July 13 in 1941 - 12 starters only, admittedly, but:

Bill Holland (died May 1984)
Joie Chitwood (Jan 1988)
Duke Nalon (Feb 2001)
Frank McGurk (Feb 1982)
Tommy Hinnershitz (Aug 1999)
Walt Ader (Nov 1982)
Hank Rogers (1989)
Johnny Ulesky (Sep 2002)
Vic Nauman (Aug 1963)
Joe Verebly (Sep 1996)
Harry Robtoy (Apr 1983)
Buddie Rusch (July 1983)

That's forty years plus for eleven out of twelve, and more than twenty-two years for the whole field, despite WW2 being just "around the corner"! Add to that the two most prominent non-qualifiers, Spider Webb and Ottis Stine, who both outlived two thirds of the starting field.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 02 January 2013 - 16:38.

[Lemnpiper]

We all know dirt track racing is deadly, right? Especially pre-WW2 dirt track racing. How about Williams Grove, July 13 in 1941 - 12 starters only, admittedly, but:

Bill Holland (died May 1984)
Joie Chitwood (Jan 1988)
Duke Nalon (Feb 2001)
Frank McGurk (Feb 1982)
Tommy Hinnershitz (Aug 1999)
Walt Ader (Nov 1982)
Hank Rogers (1989)
Johnny Ulesky
Vic Nauman
Joe Verebly (Sep 1996)
Harry Robtoy (Apr 1983)
Buddie Rusch (July 1983)

That's forty years plus for ten out of twelve, and though I can't find death dates for Nauman or Ulesky, I'm pretty sure they both lived well into the sixties, if not longer.

Thank you Michael,

With names like Ulesky and Nauman finding death dates for them shouldnt be that tuff. and it would top the 34 years the englisj races did.


Any quick guess on earliest intact Indycar. Usac Cart Irl field now BTW? I used the 1998 Indy 500 example since i had that race's info near at hand but there could be an earlier race that year that qualifies as well or even 1997.

the key drivers to be alert for should be Scott Brayton & Tony Betternhausen Jr and to a degree Roger McClusky Mike Mosley and Jim Crawford since they had a ton of starts post 1978 that their passings would eliminate a large number of the races. plus a driver like Fermin Valez or Billy Vukovich III could be a factor as well in select races.


Paul

Edited by Lemnpiper, 01 January 2013 - 03:38.

[Michael Ferner]

I only did a quick browse of my data, so I wouldn't be surprised to find other examples. Same with the death dates - yes, Ulesky and Nauman are not common names, but I couldn't find anything on the quick on the net. Maybe our genealogy experts can help?

As an aside, it's perhaps even more remarkable that all of the drivers survived the big war. And two of the non-qualifiers that day, Ottis Stine and Spider Webb, outlived most of the starters in the main event...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 01 January 2013 - 09:14.

[ReWind]

Do you mean John A. Ulesky (1910-2002) from Newark, New Jersey?

And could Vic Nauman be Victor G. Nauman, Sr. (1907-1963) from Lebanon, Pennsylvania?
ChampCarStats has Palmyra, New York, as his hometown but it should be the same person. Apparently Vic Nauman had at least two bad crashes in 1932 resp. 1941.

[Michael Ferner]

Yes, great! Thank you, Reinhard!

Wow - so Ulesky lived the longest of them all! And it's Vic Nauman from Pennsylvania, yes - Palmyra is a small community near Lebanon, so he may actually have lived there, but he was almost always listed as from Lebanon. And he crashed very badly in 1941, ending his frontline career (though he did race on after the war).

[Michael Ferner]

Do you mean John A. Ulesky (1910-2002) from Newark, New Jersey?;)

Following that link, I see he had a brother named Paul, which reminds me of a little conundrum: Ulesky frequently drove for car owner (and sometime driver) Paul "Chick" Lysek from Carteret (NJ), and there's some confusion about a car which was built by either Ulesky or Lysek, maybe both. I always wondered about the coincidence (?) of their respective family names, composed of basically the same letters, save for the first one in Ulesky. Maybe you can find out something about Paul Lysek, Reinhard?

[ReWind]

Well, Michael, FindAGrave at least has a certain Paul Lysek (to the day born 127 years ago ) from New Jersey with relation to Carteret who was an engineer. Maybe that's your man (although there is no mention that he built cars.)

[Michael Ferner]

Would appear to be him, although it makes him a little old for a racing driver (1936 - '39 in my records). Then again, he typically finished anywhere from 2nd to 9th in the consies (if he qualified at all), which could be considered par for a quinquagenarian, except for one race where he made the main event, subbing for Honey Purick in the Brayden/Dreyer, quite a potent car at the time, and one which was apparently purchased by Ulesky in 1940 (to close the circle!).

So, FindAGrave is becoming a useful source? I recall trying that route several years ago, and giving up in frustration!

[Jim Thurman]

Michael, I absolutely love it

For all the seeming morbidity, and overemphasis on racing fatalities during earlier eras, I always enjoy skewering it by pointing out the opposite.

For example, some seem to obsess over the number of "fatalities" in the 1955 Indianapolis 500 starting field, even going so far as to count Cal Niday to give a higher total. Yet, as I've noted, the drivers that didn't die racing all lived several years beyond average life span. Life average among those who didn't die racing was several years higher than the average male, and that was even taking into account premature heart attack and cancer deaths.

That really spoils it for the blood n' guts crowd

And, yes, Findagrave has added many drivers. Apparently a lot of folks have been canvassing and adding a tremendous amount of information.

[Collombin]

Yet, as I've noted, the drivers that didn't die racing all lived several years beyond average life span.

But that can probably be said of most professions, as by definition the average life span is going to be lowered by those who died at birth or as children, so the mere fact of having lived long enough to have a career is going to increase the overall life expectancy.

Regarding Cal Niday, I think one of the reasons he tends to get included is that he becomes the 17th death - the significance of which is that 17/33 is over 50%.

[ryan86]

Ah, takes me back to those wonderful days of studying actuarial tables.

I believe that the 1985 Thruxton F3000 round may still have a full cast.

[Jim Thurman]

When you consider other sports have lost people tragically young, or even the Indy 500 grids of the same era, it's a happy statistic. It's a shame it doesn't go back further.

Exactly, except Indy 500 grids of the same era generally only had one driver who died racing, with the peak being 3 in '89 & '90. In all, only 4 drivers that made starts in the Indy 500 from 1980-1995 died in racing accidents. That truly speaks to improved safety.

[Jim Thurman]

But that can probably be said of most professions, as by definition the average life span is going to be lowered by those who died at birth or as children, so the mere fact of having lived long enough to have a career is going to increase the overall life expectancy.

Regarding Cal Niday, I think one of the reasons he tends to get included is that he becomes the 17th death - the significance of which is that 17/33 is over 50%.

True, but even leaving that part out, the survivors generally lived well past quoted average for males. As I've pointed out, race drivers sure as hell live a lot longer than say the average NFL player.

Yes, that's exactly why Niday gets included...that plus those who have used inaccurate sources as to his cause of death. Again, Niday's inclusion begs the eternal question of why some feel the need to pad the stats? 16 isn't good enough? I expect that sort of thing from general media on anti-racing screeds (who've been known to include those who died away from the track in their ramblings), but when it comes from folks claiming to be racing fans, I find it unfathomable.

[Collombin]

I expect that sort of thing from general media on anti-racing screeds (who've been known to include those who died away from the track in their ramblings), but when it comes from folks claiming to be racing fans, I find it unfathomable.

I guess it is just done to emphasise how far we have come - after all, it's a bit late in the day to get all Hearsterical about how many drivers died 50 to 60 years ago.

Ironically, one of the worst offenders for overstating the past dangers of racing is a man who has perhaps done more than any other to make it safer - Jackie Stewart, with his oft repeated (but no less inaccurate for that) remark that drivers in the '60s had a 2/3 chance of being killed in a 5 year career.

Edited by E.B., 02 January 2013 - 08:04.

[Michael Ferner]

Michael, I absolutely love it

Somehow, I expected that!

It looked like an interesting concept to me, too, so I browsed my data base, looking for suitable races. I actually found many where only one or two drivers spoiled the picture, so to speak. I don't keep death dates in my data base (other than racing deaths), so it was a bit difficult to try and recall the life span of individual drivers, and then quite time consuming to find the actual dates once I discovered the WG race. With a bit of time, and a good source for civilian deaths I imagine you could come up with some surprising stats!

[Jim Thurman]

I guess it is just done to emphasise how far we have come - after all, it's a bit late in the day to get all Hearsterical about how many drivers died 50 to 60 years ago.

Ironically, one of the worst offenders for overstating the past dangers of racing is a man who has perhaps done more than any other to make it safer - Jackie Stewart, with his oft repeated (but no less inaccurate for that) remark that drivers in the '60s had a 2/3 chance of being killed in a 5 year career.

Unfortunately, it seems it's being done more in the name of glorification and glamorization, and for some, mythmaking. That's why I find it unfathomable. A serious discussion, on the level of the one here, is one thing. Some of the discussions (I use that term loosely) on other forums - and even here at times - seem fully inspired by morbid curiousity.

Hearsterical. Great term What's odd is, despite seeing obvious evidence from other newspapers (i.e. the gory editorial cartoon from the New York World), the Hearst papers in Los Angeles weren't that bad in their coverage of the fatalities at (Legion) Ascot. I've yet to find any anti-auto racing editorials in what I've checked. This contradicts the long held belief that a Hearst newspaper led anti-racing crusade led to Ascot's closure. The facts point to money and expense being the true reason for closure.

[Lemnpiper]

Just a Quick update


The non championship Marlboro Cup Challenge at Laguna Seca on Oct 14th 1989 with 10 starters still has a complete living grid.


Paul

[Lemnpiper]

It appears the Dana Rax Mays Classic held June 2, 1985 at Milwaukee is the earlierst Indy car race with it's grid of 24 starters still intact .


Results of that race .

1 Mario Andretti
2 Tom Sneva
3 Rick Mears
4 Danny Sullivan
5 Pancho Carter
6 Roberto Guerrero
7 Josele Garza
8 Emerson Fittipaldi
9 Bobby Rahal
10 Chet Fillip
11 Howdy Holmes
12 Geoff Brabham
13 Dick Simon
14 Spike Gehlhausen
15 Pete Halsmer
16 Kevin Cogan
17 Arie Luyendyk
18 Tom Bigelow
19 Michael Andretti
20 Dennis Firestone
21 Ed Pimm
22 Jacques Villeneuve (uncle)
23 Johnny Rutherford
24 Al Unser jr