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#101 Jejking

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:29

Well quite, but you've just described the nostalgia and technical forums respectively. With the RC section, with easily more posts than the rest of the forum combined, I think my point still stands. This new ruling only needs to affect that section.

No, I haven't. Even RC is at times informative. Could be that your view on that is different but at least it's not mine.

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#102 Rinehart

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 16:48

Well I've just PM'd the mods my sincere thoughts on the lack of driver threads.
I'm not normally the protesting type...  ;)

#103 bourbon

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 22:08

One of the most difficult things to understand is the new apparent policy against "driver discussions". I just came from a thread where the mod wrote "I don't want to see this turn into a driver discussion" - by which they meant to say, remain on the topic of how the driver obtained a new sponsor and nothing else. As if conversation in our world works in that way. It does not of course. You may start off speaking about the sponsor and what the driver chores might be, but invaribly you would get on to speaking about how the driver deals with sponsorship based on the past and past sponsors in particular - and attributes about the driver (with examples) that show he is more or less inclined to work well with sponsors - and you've gone right off topic.

The biggest problem is that it is a motorsport forum. So, you know, CAR + DRIVER. If 'driver discussions' are going to be that painful for those who run the site, perhaps the site should be modified to something less painful. Perhaps a all technical site, where only cars are discussed, rather than reserved to just a section.

There is a better way. The forum administrators have access to a lot of very knowledgeable and brilliant people. The forum administrators should take advantage of that and get new, viable suggestions on how things can be done in a better way. I know it is a knock to the old ego to admit that what you have come up with is not working out for many (and I daresay most) of those you purport to serve (that is why the site is here, right? A place for fans to discuss motorsports as opposed to a place for the administrators to call home?), but in the end, it would behoove the administrators to give this thing another go because the present set up is fatally flawed.

Remember two of the basic keys to a good website: "accessiblility" and "ease of use". Autosport is failing on both grounds at present.

#104 Risil

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 22:55



#105 KimiSolberg

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 13:36

I decided a wait´n´see approach, and it's definitely a change for the better, and indeed the forum has taken a small step towards what it was I think.


I want both. A bit of insight and a good laugh. Not that I was part of the "golden age" where every post was made by team principals and F1-drivers :rolleyes:

#106 Zmeej

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 22:38

Mr Solberg :wave:

Not that I was part of the "golden age" where every post was made by team principals and F1-drivers :rolleyes:


That's pretty lame in terms of both insight and humour, so guess that means you're just a taker. :cool:

#107 bourbon

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 23:37

Just saying.

It is too hard, and takes a lot of the pleasure out of posting. This is supposed to be entertaining. But it reminds me of work at times. I have to scheme to figure out a way to say something if it even incidentally impacts the topic of "a driver" - those dreaded beings that have no value or merit in a discussion about motorsport.

Sarcasm aside, it is really difficult at times. It is driving me to participate more elsewhere, which truly galls me because I think apart from this little driver bug, this site is head and shoulders above the rest.


sigh...

#108 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:42

Don't do it dude, dont go there!!

#109 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:54

On the other hand, they've allowed us to have FOUR threads about helmets. So we should be thankful.

#110 SparkPlug

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:25

I haven't posted on a single thread after enforcement of this ridiculous rule.

As far as F1 forums go, in my opinion this is one the worst decisions that can ever be taken. For a lot of people, F1 is defined a lot by the drivers, their personalities, their driving styles, etc. For me especially, I am far more interested in following the careers of drivers than of teams which apart from maybe 2 or three, are not really that appealing to a fan. Formula 1 for fans like me is more about the human being that sits behind the wheel than anything else.

By banning discussion on drivers, you are effectively alienating a majority of the fanbase in modern Formula 1. Whether the moderating team likes it or not, most of the fans of this sport are fans of a driver over that of a team. I've been following this sport for probably more time than the age of most of the posters out here, and I can call this decision what it is : A big mistake. I hope website statistics and stuff will show them how big a mistake this is.

There is no formula 1 without its driver, and no F1 forum can be enjoyable without discussions about drivers. As far as I am concerned, this forum is on its way to a slow death like a few other forums I had been part of in the past.

#111 jrg19

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 14:24

Im not to sure what the car threads are for anymore, discussing what has happened to the car in the car thread is no longer allowed.

All that seems to be discussed in the car threads is parts of the car, which once the cars dont have updates will be useless.

#112 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 14:49

Just to be clear discussing the car as in the aero, the engine or anything about the car including pictures is acceptable and these post have stood. Posts discussing the breaking down of a car is for the testing thread or the live commentary/comments page. The car threads are not team clubhouses.

Edit: If you have question regarding specific posts or about the moderation please feel free to contact the moderation team by PM.

#113 Wolfie

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 22:12

I haven't posted on a single thread after enforcement of this ridiculous rule.

As far as F1 forums go, in my opinion this is one the worst decisions that can ever be taken. For a lot of people, F1 is defined a lot by the drivers, their personalities, their driving styles, etc. For me especially, I am far more interested in following the careers of drivers than of teams which apart from maybe 2 or three, are not really that appealing to a fan. Formula 1 for fans like me is more about the human being that sits behind the wheel than anything else.

By banning discussion on drivers, you are effectively alienating a majority of the fanbase in modern Formula 1. Whether the moderating team likes it or not, most of the fans of this sport are fans of a driver over that of a team. I've been following this sport for probably more time than the age of most of the posters out here, and I can call this decision what it is : A big mistake. I hope website statistics and stuff will show them how big a mistake this is.

There is no formula 1 without its driver, and no F1 forum can be enjoyable without discussions about drivers. As far as I am concerned, this forum is on its way to a slow death like a few other forums I had been part of in the past.


+ 10000000 :up:

The change of forum rules came out of the blue and without any warning signs. All of a sudden everything changed and the message was that fan-bases aren't 'welcomed' anymore. One day all driver-threads were just locked permanently and that was that. Oh and instructions were given about how members should express themself in the future.

The mod-team might have overlooked one thing though, driver-fans have a human approach and they contribute a lot. Due to the human approach the fan-base also has a 'soul' which benefits the whole forum. A forum with only a matter-of-fact -approach is cold, it has no 'soul'.

I take the chance to thank all driver-fans for helping me see drivers from another angle and use as an example Alonso-fans and the Alonso-thread.

I'm not a fan of Alonso, however it has been a joy to read the Alonso-thread due to all the valuable information they provide for each other. Thanks to the Alonso-fans I have learned to know him more deeply, all the charity work he has done and things like that. They have helped me to see him as a human being, not just a driver, and it's a shame that I can't read through driver-threads to learn more about them. It was so easy to check the driver-threads and learn a massive amount about each driver. I don't have the energy to go through their respective forums so locking the driver-threads was a huge loss to me personally.

As a Kimi-fan it doesn't bother me much that his driver-thread was closed. AS never interested me because of the Kimi-community, AS was a place where I could learn about the other drivers by regularly reading their respective threads. Once again a huge thank you to all driver-fans, it has been a joy to sense the togetherness and positivity you guys have and to see how you stand by your driver when times are tough!

AS has chosen a new direction that limitates the expression for driver-fans - who are just as important for a forum than team-fans or motorsport-fans. However it's their right to do so and I respect it.

If someone knows a good general F1-forum where fan-bases are also welcomed, can you please send me a PM ;)

Take care everybody :wave:



#114 KimiSolberg

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:41

AS has chosen a new direction that limitates the expression for driver-fans - who are just as important for a forum than team-fans or motorsport-fans. However it's their right to do so and I respect it.

If someone knows a good general F1-forum where fan-bases are also welcomed, can you please send me a PM ;)

Take care everybody :wave:


With but a loathesome two digit number of posts under my belt, I still have visited the forum and site for a few years with regular enjoyment. Lately, however, the forum has gotten fewer and fewer clicks from this saddened writer. My "home" in F1, the kimi thread, has been killed off and so has the good atmosphere on the board. Harsh and unwanted messages from some of the more unsavoury moderators really makes me want to fulfill Godwin's law. But hey, I'm mostly disappointed that you have ruined a big part of my internet life when you really should have done what Kimi printed on his T-shirt.

As Wolfie says (and you know you're in trouble when Wolfie leaves): If you know a good general F1-forum where fan-bases are also welcomed, can you please send me a PM. I'm off and good luck with that power trip.

#115 The Kanisteri

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:57

KimiSolberg and Wolfie,

I kind of understand moderator's policy on this.

You cannot deny driver based threads were just spark on fuel to ignite them into huge fire.
Man can label participants into 3 class in these threads: The Fans from casual likers to extreme fanboys, The Haters from little dislikers to extreme haters, The Neutrals, people who took commentating something but their message was just got into shadow and ignorance as co-starring people in these big wars between those two first groups I did mention.

Racing Comments had become wild jungle all monkeys and trolls fighting with others on all fronts.

This "curfew" of driver threads is very welcome to clean air for even few moments.

#116 Jejking

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:10

Just to be clear discussing the car as in the aero, the engine or anything about the car including pictures is acceptable and these post have stood. Posts discussing the breaking down of a car is for the testing thread or the live commentary/comments page. The car threads are not team clubhouses.

Edit: If you have question regarding specific posts or about the moderation please feel free to contact the moderation team by PM.

What is being tested during the tests? The car. What are car threads about? The car too. There is a severe overlap and it's too confusing to keep it separated. I think you should put your time in extinquishing flames instead of trying to regulate the irregulatable because this is not working. What about 'team form', where does it belong, car thread or test thread? It just doesn't make any sense. It all became more peaceful over here but there are much fewer posts being made everyday (and still the site gets overloaded) and your faithful oldtimers all decided to run off, away from this 'poor mans F1technical website'. If that's not enough of a warning shot, well.. Oh, the reason I post this here is because everyone is entitled to an opinion and everybody should be able to participate in the discussion.

KimiSolberg and Wolfie,

I kind of understand moderator's policy on this.

You cannot deny driver based threads were just spark on fuel to ignite them into huge fire.
Man can label participants into 3 class in these threads: The Fans from casual likers to extreme fanboys, The Haters from little dislikers to extreme haters, The Neutrals, people who took commentating something but their message was just got into shadow and ignorance as co-starring people in these big wars between those two first groups I did mention.

Racing Comments had become wild jungle all monkeys and trolls fighting with others on all fronts.

This "curfew" of driver threads is very welcome to clean air for even few moments.

I wouldn't call this a curfew, it's a total ban on anything flameworthy and I'm wondering when it will go to the car threads, attacking brands instead of drivers. If there is a problem with fanboys or haters, moderators should act on it, warn two times and then get it over with with a permanent solution. The site became hollow this way, even I barely visit the forum anymore instead of 5 times a day.

Edited by Jejking, 06 February 2013 - 12:13.


#117 275 GTB-4

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:20

Been watching F1 last 30 years and I've always considered it as an entertainment. The more you know about it (tactics, engineering, etc.) the more interesting it is. However, it should be still fun! In every hobby - wines, sport, music, whatever - there are always a group of people who take their hobbies too seriously. They think they are "experts" but I say those people just don't have sense of humor, that's all. :cat: I feel that closing topics including several thousand messages is an arrogant gesture, indeed! :rolleyes:

Bye! :wave:


Petri dishes it up! Brilliant! :cool:

#118 mkoscevic

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 14:28

You know, good historic contributions or peeps with a tech degree who are actually understanding what is going on.


Unless these people with technical degrees are not actively involved in R&D of the solutions they talk about, then they are doing an educated guesswork most of the time - which is _wrong_ most of the time. Real experts, those people who are actually out there in F1 doing the work, are always happy to laugh at that guesswork. Respect to the people who got a degree, but we're talking about contribution here and these people are providing as much confusion and disinformation as an average technically uneducated forum poster. Perhaps with a more technical insight, but at the end of the day - wrong insight in most cases.

#119 Jejking

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 14:43

Unless these people with technical degrees are not actively involved in R&D of the solutions they talk about, then they are doing an educated guesswork most of the time - which is _wrong_ most of the time. Real experts, those people who are actually out there in F1 doing the work, are always happy to laugh at that guesswork. Respect to the people who got a degree, but we're talking about contribution here and these people are providing as much confusion and disinformation as an average technically uneducated forum poster. Perhaps with a more technical insight, but at the end of the day - wrong insight in most cases.

There were people with good insights because they had a history in the motorsports industry. I'm talking about the pearls of the collection here, plus the people who are prepared to think and analyze things through. They are above average technically uneducated forum poster-level for sure, so I think your comment to that small group is slightly degrading and wrong. The majority can spread crap, that's true, but not everybody does.

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#120 mkoscevic

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 15:19

Well yeah, there are some top notch guys for sure.

#121 sharo

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 15:27

One cannot expect highly qualified specialists involved in F1 and hi-end motor sports to be sitting and commenting in an internet forum. But there are also quite a number of people with education and technical background who can analyze available data and present very valid conclusions. That's the best a forum can get. Unfortunately it seems to me less and less people are interested in the (deeper) technical side of the sport. Maybe because it is more difficult to participate in a discussion of such level.

As for the new order in the forum, I wouldn't comment directly the rules. Only would like to share some of my observations both as an ordinary member and as a person involved to some degree in administration and moderation. My observations show that in every forum there is a tendency on the moderating staff side to try and lessen their burden. Moderation is a burden, I even won't argue about that. So, sometimes subconsciously, they try to make their life easier and as a rule it usually results in limiting the users participation one way or another. Like for a cop the ideal world is the one where all civilians are behind bars :) Something similar.
Usually everything is done with good intent, but the administration staff tends to gradually diverge from the member base with time and lose touch with reality. They start to view the forum as some institution and try to enforce some institutional approach and rules. While the truth is that a forum is highly dependent on its users. The end result is not always positive.
I have witnessed how a change of policy discouraging opening of new threads practically chased out the majority of the members. When rules were reverted back, it was too late. People didn't come back.
There is a new season unfolding and time will tell what effects the new rules will have. No need to overreact.

#122 pacificquay

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 15:33

I have witnessed how a change of policy discouraging opening of new threads practically chased out the majority of the members.



Well thankfully in the case of this forum the previous long-running position, where it was seen as a cardinal sin to open a new thread, has changed to one where individual threads for individual topics is the policy, rather than the generic threads of before. So I can't see it chasing anyone away.

#123 Risil

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 18:27

One cannot expect highly qualified specialists involved in F1 and hi-end motor sports to be sitting and commenting in an internet forum.


Take a look at some of the forums that aren't RC once in a while.

#124 sharo

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 19:31

Take a look at some of the forums that aren't RC once in a while.

Even the TF is desolate compared to previous times. Also I think you didn't get what I wanted to underline - no one actively engaged in F1 will share and explain technical solutions and how they work. So most of the time we have educated guesses.

#125 Jovanotti

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 20:47

The car threads are not team clubhouses.

Just to say, imho it was very cool to have some kind of drivers and teams "clubhouses" (as you name it) to chat about news, share fan material, have discussions with fellow fans or, as Wolfie mentioned, gain insight into other driver personalities (not saying differing opinions weren't welcome, too).

A few things have improved, but news-sharing and companionship has died, that's for sure.

Edited by Jovanotti, 06 February 2013 - 20:51.


#126 Coral

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:32

Just to say, imho it was very cool to have some kind of drivers and teams "clubhouses" (as you name it) to chat about news, share fan material, have discussions with fellow fans or, as Wolfie mentioned, gain insight into other driver personalities (not saying differing opinions weren't welcome, too).

A few things have improved, but news-sharing and companionship has died, that's for sure.


I agree with this, except for the "improvements" bit. I don't see any improvements. When I think about what has happened to this forum, I want to cry. News-sharing and companionship...yes, that is exactly what we had on the old driver threads. I miss those threads, I miss all the old familiar faces. Where have they gone? :cry: Before the changes, I visited this place frequently...the driver threads were full of news and interesting discussion...and they were a veritable one-stop shop for fans of a particular driver...one did not have to go to any other website...this place had it all! But now all that has gone. Now I have to go to other sites to get my news about the drivers...the BBC, Sky Sports, Twitter, even...(shudder) the Daily Mail. What I can't understand is... why do the mods want to drive people away?!

It would appear that those of us who are fans of drivers first and foremost are no longer welcome on the Autosport BB, and that it is moving towards becoming a site where only those who are interested in the technical side of F1 are allowed to post. I love F1 with a passion yet I feel excluded from the forum...am I the only person who feels like this?!

I can't believe that it has come to this...a once lively, vibrant website has become a forlorn, subdued place, with a dry and humourless atmosphere. Can anyone tell me what there is left on this forum for me? :|

I am really so sad to be posting this, because this place really added to my enjoyment of F1. I want the old forum back. If anyone knows where I can find it, please let me know as soon as possible. Because I miss it... :( :cry:

#127 Risil

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:44

Down about driver threads? Malcontented by mods? Trawling the Daily Mail for stories of Lewis, Jense and the gang?

Banish the offseason blues by voting for entries in the 2013 Livery Competition DO IT NOW

Edited by Risil, 06 February 2013 - 21:44.


#128 SophieB

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 21:59

Now I have to go to other sites to get my news about the drivers...the BBC, Sky Sports, Twitter, even...(shudder) the Daily Mail. What I can't understand is... why do the mods want to drive people away?!

It would appear that those of us who are fans of drivers first and foremost are no longer welcome on the Autosport BB, and that it is moving towards becoming a site where only those who are interested in the technical side of F1 are allowed to post. I love F1 with a passion yet I feel excluded from the forum...am I the only person who feels like this?!


Nah, right there with you.

And to add to what's missing without taking away anything you said because I agree with it all, it was also really interesting to get the different perspectives of fans from all round the world and to hear what their F1 press was saying about the drivers. One-stop shop was a good was of putting it. Now it's gone.



#129 D.M.N.

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:08

I can't believe that it has come to this...a once lively, vibrant website has become a forlorn, subdued place, with a dry and humourless atmosphere. Can anyone tell me what there is left on this forum for me? :|

I am really so sad to be posting this, because this place really added to my enjoyment of F1. I want the old forum back. If anyone knows where I can find it, please let me know as soon as possible. Because I miss it... :( :cry:

This forum has been around since 1999.

Driver threads have only been an issue in the past few years as baiting, trolling and immature posts have taken hold and had a detrimental effect as to how this forum operates. This forum existed before driver threads and it shall exist after driver threads, too.

It just means that discussion will be organic. More real. You can see proof that the forum operated completely fine before driver threads by going to a random page in the RC archive: http://forums.autosp...hp?showforum=21

As always, we will listen to all concerns anyone has, via PM.

#130 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 22:19

Why didn't you punish the people making it unpleasant instead of banning the playing field?

#131 jj2728

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 00:50

Why didn't you punish the people making it unpleasant instead of banning the playing field?


Because 2/3s of the RC membership would have been banned. The driver threads had turned into childlike hero worshipping get togethers where negative, perceived negative comments, or daring to voice an opinion contrary to the adulation of said drivers was met with derision, disdain, being labelled a 'hater', called ignorant and so on and so forth. The mods did the best thing they could have. Maybe we'll see a bit more levity in the RC forum.

#132 swerved

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 00:52

Why didn't you punish the people making it unpleasant instead of banning the playing field?




:clap: :clap: :clap:


To simple ? to much common sense ?


Because some folks are unable or unwilling to simply ignore something, (and sadly, some can't achieve that even with the help of a designated button!) the rules are changed, not only for those who are deemed to be transgressors, but for everyone, and because of that we've lost threads that were something of a 1 stop shop, where you could almost guarantee that exciting/informative/topical news could be found, yes there was a certain amount of trolling, and sometimes articles.info that was on, and sometimes over the edge of relevance, but those could be skimmed over, ignored, by most anyway, as i said it seems some are unable to do so, and because of that its something like i recall from Junior school..


"If whoever nicked Robinsons pencil doesn't own up the entire class will have detention"


Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Edited by swerved, 07 February 2013 - 00:54.


#133 SparkPlug

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:02

Because 2/3s of the RC membership would have been banned. The driver threads had turned into childlike hero worshipping get togethers where negative, perceived negative comments, or daring to voice an opinion contrary to the adulation of said drivers was met with derision, disdain, being labelled a 'hater', called ignorant and so on and so forth. The mods did the best thing they could have. Maybe we'll see a bit more levity in the RC forum.

I think this is a gross over estimation. If anything, all the moderating team had to do was to clamp down on the 2 or 3 dedicated "hate mongers" in each driver thread and the place would have been more civil and controllable. Alas, there were (and are) a few members that used to type garbage, completely unsubstantiated criticisms against drivers, getting to extremely low and personal levels which would always get the intended "fanbase" riled up. I always found that most fans of drivers in Autosport were not blind worshippers, not by a long shot. There was always room for constructive discussion. Yes, there were always a few people with almost unhealthy dedication to their drivers, but this was always a small minority. The general atmosphere in driver threads was good apart from these couple of groups, both of whom were fringe elements (the hate mongers and blind worshippers).

The really good decision would have been to ban these two sets of posters (especially the former) instead of clamping down on an entire set of topics which constitute atleast 50% (conservatively) of all interest in this sport.

#134 Jejking

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:27

Because 2/3s of the RC membership would have been banned. The driver threads had turned into childlike hero worshipping get togethers where negative, perceived negative comments, or daring to voice an opinion contrary to the adulation of said drivers was met with derision, disdain, being labelled a 'hater', called ignorant and so on and so forth. The mods did the best thing they could have. Maybe we'll see a bit more levity in the RC forum.

They were talking about getting out the severe trolls without any healthy basis to add to the discussion, not the casual (like 1/2/3 times) offender. 2/3th is a great overestimation.

#135 Sin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:43

o.o the drivers wives thread was closed.... I don't understand that ... and I'm female... will all threads that are not directly about racing but more about the drivers themselves be closed? Cause that would be kind of boring, not that racing is not intresting but a little talking about racing that has not directly to do with the racing itself is fun too.... not sure if I would leave because of that but .... would make the board a whole lot more boring if threads like that werent allowed anymore

Edited by Sin, 07 February 2013 - 12:44.


#136 Jejking

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 13:20

Rubbish decision. I PM'd you, Gilles.

#137 Paste

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 13:45

This forum has been around since 1999.


<--------

1998, actually.

#138 Gareth

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 14:21

By banning discussion on drivers

Discussion on drivers has not been banned at all.

What is now encouraged is that discussion takes place in specific threads relating to specific issues regarding the drivers, rather than in a single thread covering every issue to do with a particular driver.

The intention/hope is that this results in more, and better, discussion of the drivers - encouraging more in depth discussion of specific issues. It is certainly not there to prevent discussion of drivers at all.

All of a sudden [...] the message was that fan-bases aren't 'welcomed' anymore.

Fan bases remain 100% welcome and encouraged to be involved on the board.

Fan bases that are only content to express themselves in a single thread regarding a single driver, may find the board less interesting to them now I guess. But fan bases are completely welcome - I don't understand how this change could be taken as a message that they are not.

If you have read an article on Kimi, for example, that you think raises interesting things about him deserving of discussion - start a new thread on it. If other members find it interesting, they'll reply. Those other members replying might be Kimi fans, or fans of other drivers - whoever finds it interesting. There should be no reduction in the information shared, or discussed, on the forum - that information and those discussions should simply be easier to find, because they are in threads whose subjects more closely relate to what is being discussed.

#139 Gareth

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 14:24

Why didn't you punish the people making it unpleasant instead of banning the playing field?

We did.

Trolling etc isn't the only reason for the decision. Making the playing field less conducive to those things occurring, whilst (IMO) taking nothing away (you can still discuss as much as ever before about drivers - just in topic specific threads), is an added bonus.

The main motivation of the change, for me at least, is making the playing field more accesible and interesting to play on (rather than to reduce trolling etc).

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#140 milestone 11

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 14:45

This forum existed before driver threads and it shall exist after driver threads, too.

+16 hours

Discussion on drivers has not been banned at all...
...Fan bases remain 100% welcome and encouraged to be involved on the board.

Something of a seachange in a very short space of time.

#141 Jovanotti

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 15:43

There should be no reduction in the information shared, or discussed, on the forum - that information and those discussions should simply be easier to find, because they are in threads whose subjects more closely relate to what is being discussed.

Although this makes sense from a theoretical point of view, everyone will have noticed at the latest now, as testing has begun, that it doesn't. Look at the confusion in the car threads where mods constantly have to remind people to discuss things in the testing thread. If you were consequent, you should encourage people to open "car xy, Jerez testing 2013" threads, as one thread for all the infos concerning all cars clearly isn't enough. The individual lines of discussions get lost in one huge thread for everything.

On the other hand, for an individual driver where all articles concern ONE central topic, a single thread is handy because it collects all the info in one place. Do you save all your Word, Excel, PP etc. documents on your desktop just because the titles fit the content better than a subfile?

My last two cents here.

#142 Gareth

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 15:53

+16 hours

Something of a seachange in a very short space of time.

I don't see a sea change. Discussion on drivers, and fan bases, remain welcome and actively encouraged. Please get involved. Please don't do this via creating threads where the topic is "Driver X", though. Do it via creating topics regarding issues relating to drivers.

On the other hand, for an individual driver where all articles concern ONE central topic, a single thread is handy because it collects all the info in one place. Do you save all your Word, Excel, PP etc. documents on your desktop just because the titles fit the content better than a subfile?

No. Sub-files work well. And then I have some sub-sub files, etc.

A forum doesn't give you that flexibility. Also, for example, where does discussion on a crash between Driver X and Driver Y go? In the Driver X thread, the Driver Y thread or, new thread called "Driver X crashes into Driver Y" or some combination of the 3? The latter was usually the case, which certainly doesn't fit the hope of "collecting all the info in one place" - rather the opposite.

There are pros and cons of any approach. There is no perfect answer and I'm not going to pretend that this approach is 100% perfect all the time. It is a case of finding the appropriate balance to make the forum accesible and encourage discussion. I think this approach achieves that balance better. If you want to post about, or read about, a particular driver you can IMO find that discussion (or create it, if it is not there yet) easier in the majority of cases without the driver threads. I accept there may be times where that is not the case, but I believe it will be the case much more often than not.

#143 pRy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 15:57

Discussion on drivers has not been banned at all.

What is now encouraged is that discussion takes place in specific threads relating to specific issues regarding the drivers, rather than in a single thread covering every issue to do with a particular driver.


It may not have been banned but I feel it's been made quite a lot more difficult.

For example.. a driver makes a comment in an interview on TV or on twitter and I want to drop that comment onto the forum and add my views so others can give their views. Currently I would need to either make a brand new thread just to discuss this one tiny observation, or just not post at all because there is no where else to correctly drop the comment. Previously it would go into the driver thread and be classed as general chit-chat. I don't want to start new threads every time I want to pass comment on something.

So currently I look up and down the forum thread list, think "Ok, no where to post this" and just don't bother. Eventually over time I fear any general chit-chat will just be a thing of the past on the forum and only the main topics will be discussed. In which case you may as well save yourselves all the time and the headaches and switch to a facebook driven comment system below each news item on the main site.

#144 Gareth

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 16:08

pRy - if it relates to something already covered by a thread, there shouldn't be a need to open a new one.

If it's something new, I for one would welcome your new thread! Threads kicked off with good, interesting, observations are often ones that produce the best discussion. And your observations are usually good and interesting ones.

My recollection of the evolution of driver threads was that they arrived in earnest sometime around 2007, with the aim of capturing the little stuff probably not worthy of its own thread, then evolved to become the place where everything went. I don't recall the forum prior to the large scale introduction of driver threads being a place devoid of general chit chat, so I hope your fear (which I can understand) proves to be unfounded. It's certainly not something we would want, and if it looked like it was becoming a consequence of this new policy I would expect the decision would be reviewed (we're not, and will never pretend to be, infallible!).

#145 Wolfie

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 16:10

Discussion on drivers has not been banned at all.

What is now encouraged is that discussion takes place in specific threads relating to specific issues regarding the drivers, rather than in a single thread covering every issue to do with a particular driver.

The intention/hope is that this results in more, and better, discussion of the drivers - encouraging more in depth discussion of specific issues. It is certainly not there to prevent discussion of drivers at all.


Fan bases remain 100% welcome and encouraged to be involved on the board.

Fan bases that are only content to express themselves in a single thread regarding a single driver, may find the board less interesting to them now I guess. But fan bases are completely welcome - I don't understand how this change could be taken as a message that they are not.

If you have read an article on Kimi, for example, that you think raises interesting things about him deserving of discussion - start a new thread on it. If other members find it interesting, they'll reply. Those other members replying might be Kimi fans, or fans of other drivers - whoever finds it interesting. There should be no reduction in the information shared, or discussed, on the forum - that information and those discussions should simply be easier to find, because they are in threads whose subjects more closely relate to what is being discussed.


With all due respect, I have experienced a similar launch of a similar policy on another board and compared in the beginning what moderators said in different threads here with what was said on the earlier forum. Hence it looks very strongly like you would want to break all fan-groups, once again I'm comparing this with what moderators have said in different threads.

There are lots of Kimi-fans, how long will it take before you get upset with them if they start posting news after news in separate threads? How long will it take before non-fans start to complain about Kimi-fans 'spamming' the forum?

Only news I could come with would be some Finnish news, then again I have been told by a moderator that translations aren't allowed anymore.

Not complaining about it, only saying that it's too difficult to try and adjust the expression so that it fits the expression allowed by the moderators.

That is my opinion from a driver-fan's POV.



#146 pRy

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 16:19

Oh I dunno Gareth.. not sure I want to start a brand new thread just to share a photo of PDR pulling his pants up that Fernando took. It's perfect for dropping into an Alonso/Rosa thread as a general point of amusement but worthy of it's own thread? I'm not so sure about that. :)

I'm sure there are better examples. But I appreciate your point. Perhaps I just need to search more for a suitable existing thread rather than just look at the front page and conclude one doesn't exist somewhere that I could slot the comment into. The driver threads were just a very easy dumping ground for casual observations & tittle tattle (I accept perhaps part of your problems)... and i'd rather post to a current thread than start a new one.

I'll see how it goes over the next few months.

#147 Gareth

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 16:27

Wolfie - I'm a big driver fan too. So I'm coming at this from the same place as you in terms of my main focus of following F1.

I don't know what happened on the earlier forum that you talk about, so I can't compare I'm afraid. I can honestly say the intention is not to drive out fan groups at all. Fans of drivers are actively encouraged, this place would IMO be worse off without them. So there is genuinely no hidden agenda to try and achieve that position. I hope you believe us on that, and stick around despite the experience on the other forum, and give us feedback if you think things are (unintentionally) heading in the direction you previously experienced - we will want to correct it.

Avoiding 'spamming' is, again, part of striking the right balance that I have mentioned in posts above. Whilst 10 threads a million posts long on your forum suggests you probably have topics that are too wide (and IMO we were gravitating too much to that end of the spectrum before), equally having a million threads each 3 posts long probably suggests you have topics that are too narrow. Ultimately, I hope that the userbase gravitates the forum towards the right and we as a moderation team will need to try and help guide it there too. Like I said, I think we were too much towards the one of the extremes before and I hope this helps address it without going too far the other way. Again, it'll be kept under review and if the wrong balance has been struck we'll think about how we address it.

With regards to Finnish news - the issue is copyright, not that translations are not allowed. Link the article, maybe translate a small extract (similar to the size of extract someome would post of a quote from an English article) that relates to what you want to discuss, and provide your views.

#148 Kvothe

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 16:48

I've had my own opinion on the banning of driver threads but have largely kept them to myself content to see what effect the new rules have.

I would however like to thank Gareth, for taking the time to respond to users concern about policy in an open discussion.

#149 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 16:49

I didn't like the tone in driver threads, but the threads themselves were useful. Particularly if you visited infrequently it had an archival function since it was usually on the first page. Now if you miss a specific thread with a nugget you may never see it again.

Currently we have FOUR threads about helmets. Is that an indication of the new approach or just not merged/cleaned up adequately? I think at least two of them would have been merged under the old format.

#150 Gareth

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 17:30

I didn't like the tone in driver threads, but the threads themselves were useful. Particularly if you visited infrequently it had an archival function since it was usually on the first page. Now if you miss a specific thread with a nugget you may never see it again.

If you visit infrequently and won't go back one page or more on the topics page, are you going to delve through however many pages of comments in a thread to find that nugget? Given the option to search thread titles only, I think this approach makes finding the nugget easier. If you want to use the forum as a method of tracking down news on a driver since you last visited, searching "Driver X" with "search thread titles only" checked should give you a better page of results (searching posts would give out too many results to be useful, searching thread titles with the driver threads would simply have taken you to a large thread with a load of posts to catch up on to try and find the nugget).

Currently we have FOUR threads about helmets. Is that an indication of the new approach or just not merged/cleaned up adequately?

I think it probably reflects more of the latter than the former (sorry for not picking up on it).