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#151 sharo

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 17:54

I didn't like the tone in driver threads, but the threads themselves were useful.
...................


I agree. And it's us, the users who make the tone.
I don't agree with what have been said before about the percentage of the trolls and flamers. Actually there are a handful of them, easily detectable and known to all who visit a given thread on regular basis. Those people are clever enough to avoid braking the paramount rule of not discussing moderation and administration, but hidden behind the right of opinion and freedom to express it, they provoke the rest into an endless spiral of exchange, leading to nowhere and sometimes even to braking that rule by otherwise goodhearted posters due to frustration.
Right of opinion -OK, right of expression - OK, but if that opinion is repeated in an obsessive manner causing the thread to practically restart and only grow in size, then IMHO such people should be sided in the name of preserving the good tone and respect to each other.
While I think a general thread about a given driver is an useful thing for minor facts and data, not worthy of a separate one, they are highly dependent on users good will and need more attention from the mods. So I understand the argumentation behind the decision of banning driver threads.
It's a matter of finding the right balance which is not an easy task. And needs some effort on both sides. Sometimes it's wiser and a sign of maturity to skip a flaming post and consequently leave a troll highly disappointed.
Personally, since my favorite driver left, I don't quite notice the absence of those threads. If someone created now 22 separate thread about each driver, very soon only 5 or 6 will remain on the first page among the active threads. The rest will simply sink down due to lack of or very little interest.

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#152 Sin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 18:27

I agree that the driver collection threads were more useful after reading all the posts.... I just think that it will be too many new threads... and you can easily miss the topic that intrests you about a special driver.... you also will have to all the time search if there ALREADY is a thread about a certain topic before making a new one instead of just putting an answer in the driver thread

#153 Craven Morehead

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 17:35

Well, after several weeks I can say that, imo, the change has definitely resulted in an overall improvement in the level of communication on the RC. Far, far less trolling/ intollerence/ namecalling etc, and much more positive conversation.

Nice work mods. :up: I really like the changes.

#154 RJL

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:59

Yes, I quite agree. A genuine improvement. Now a piece of worthy news gets it's own topic and is easily found, rather than having to wade through pages of mindless bickering. That's much better.

Thanx mods, great work :up:

#155 Coral

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 11:56

I don't like the changes. At all. I now find this forum a very depressing place to visit. There is nowhere for me to post...all the threads are about cars...cars, cars and more cars. I know nothing about cars, F1 to me is all about the people who drive them...but we can't talk about them! What is all that about?!

By banning all discussion about the personalities in F1, I have been excluded from the forum. And I think that this is very unfair. :down:

I don't feel as if there is anything left for me on this forum. I miss the old place. :( :cry:

#156 D.M.N.

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 12:04

I don't like the changes. At all. I now find this forum a very depressing place to visit. There is nowhere for me to post...all the threads are about cars...cars, cars and more cars. I know nothing about cars, F1 to me is all about the people who drive them...but we can't talk about them! What is all that about?!

By banning all discussion about the personalities in F1, I have been excluded from the forum. And I think that this is very unfair. :down:

I don't feel as if there is anything left for me on this forum. I miss the old place. :( :cry:

As has been said previously, driver discussion has not been banned. If you want to discuss a particular subject, feel free to create a thread. Driver threads have been banned though - I think Craven Morehead and RJL sum it up perfectly above.

#157 SophieB

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 13:10

I'm not seeing any positive improvement. The few threads on drivers that do get opened tend to be started by posters with very obvious hidden agendas. Even where the opening post is neutral like the thread about Lewis getting a new manager, the thread only worked by being very heavily and actively moderated. Well, until the thread was eventually closed down because a few posters just couldn't stop slagging off Hamilton, even after several warnings in the thread. No noticeable improvements in politeness at all. If the board seems quieter, it's therefore because it's harder to talk about drivers in the first place.

Besides, as has been pointed out here many times, what we no longer have is anywhere to post small bits of driver news or stuff like funny driver twitter pics. Just because something isn't important enough to support a whole thread, doesn't mean it is of no interest to any reader. They are of great interest to me, for one. Besides, not seeing one picture or hearing about one driver running a marathon or whatever is one thing but add them all together and the fans who follow F1 through a driver or drivers are losing out. Besides, those little bits of news and pictures used to humanise drivers I didn't know much about. I agree with Coral - now RC just all looks like cars, cars, cars.


#158 Sin

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 14:53

yeah for example the bit where Nico Rosberg Challenged Lukas Podolski for twitter followers and the hilarious response... just nowhere to write that info in.... and not important enough to open a thread for

#159 ForeverF1

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 17:00

yeah for example the bit where Nico Rosberg Challenged Lukas Podolski for twitter followers and the hilarious response... just nowhere to write that info in.... and not important enough to open a thread for

If you use the search function you will see a thread called "Formula One drivers on Twitter". http://forums.autosp...p;#entry6125323

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#160 Sin

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 18:28

If you use the search function you will see a thread called "Formula One drivers on Twitter". http://forums.autosp...p;#entry6125323



yeah that is the problem you need to use the search function before every post you make... instead of just putting it in the driver thread... it is really getting confusing and unclear

overview gets lost a little

Edited by Sin, 23 February 2013 - 18:53.


#161 jj2728

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 21:56

I agree with Coral - now RC just all looks like cars, cars, cars.


Without the cars, there'd be no drivers. I think we've become spoiled in this internet day and age. Instead of being thankful that we have an excellent forum to discuss the sport we enjoy, we tend to grouse and complain when the mods have done something in the interest of the entire forum base to make it a more pleasurable experience for everyone. I am sure that there are enough driver friendly forums out there in cyber world to satisfy those that want to know every single minutae of their favorite driver.

#162 Coral

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 23:04

Without the cars, there'd be no drivers. I think we've become spoiled in this internet day and age. Instead of being thankful that we have an excellent forum to discuss the sport we enjoy, we tend to grouse and complain when the mods have done something in the interest of the entire forum base to make it a more pleasurable experience for everyone. I am sure that there are enough driver friendly forums out there in cyber world to satisfy those that want to know every single minutae of their favorite driver.


There are none...at least none that I can find. That's the problem. I have no one with whom to share my love of F1, so this place felt like a great little community. But all that has gone now, to be replaced by an endless stream of threads to which I cannot contribute. And I think that is sad. But on reading several of the comments here, it is clear that some people like the changes. So I guess I shall just have to like it or lump it. :| Perhaps things will improve when the new season starts...I certainly hope so.

#163 sheepgobba

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 06:53

I was wondering what happened to the driver wives thread and drivers

#164 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 04:08

Without the cars, there'd be no drivers. I think we've become spoiled in this internet day and age. Instead of being thankful that we have an excellent forum to discuss the sport we enjoy, we tend to grouse and complain when the mods have done something in the interest of the entire forum base to make it a more pleasurable experience for everyone. I am sure that there are enough driver friendly forums out there in cyber world to satisfy those that want to know every single minutae of their favorite driver.



But without the drivers would F1 exist in the way that it does? The two driver per team set up and the competition it sets up within a team is perhaps the very basis for the popularity and longevity of the series.

People not feeling free enough to discuss drivers on an F1 forum is bizarre.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 25 February 2013 - 04:10.


#165 Gareth

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 12:41

Perhaps things will improve when the new season starts...I certainly hope so.

It's pre-season, so the majority of the discussion is regarding the cars. Not that much going on/new developments on the driver front.

I suspect that's the main reason why what you are seeing is "cars, cars, cars", rather than the forum rule change. And I expect you will see more driver related stuff once the season gets underway.

#166 swerved

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 13:04

But without the drivers would F1 exist in the way that it does? The two driver per team set up and the competition it sets up within a team is perhaps the very basis for the popularity and longevity of the series.

People not feeling free enough to discuss drivers on an F1 forum is bizarre.



:up:

Meanwhile, in the Racing Comments section we have a thread about drivers pets, because of course thats really relevant to all things racing.


#167 Gareth

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 13:27

What do you want to discuss about drivers that you feel is currently not being discussed?

#168 Coral

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 13:45

What do you want to discuss about drivers that you feel is currently not being discussed?


The thing I liked about the driver threads was that they were "catch-all" threads where we could talk about all aspects of the drivers' lives. I would like to be able to discuss the drivers' lives outside of F1...because there is more to life than motorsport...isn't there? But instead we are limited to discussing the drivers's participation in F1 only. I know there is the invitation-only "Paddock Club" but I have no interest in that whatsoever.

#169 milestone 11

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 14:52

But instead we are limited to discussing the drivers's participation in F1 only. I know there is the invitation-only "Paddock Club" but I have no interest in that whatsoever.


The Paddock Club
Forum for FULL MEMBERS only (those with at least 30 posts on the board). The place to talk about (almost!) any non-motorsport topic, while sipping champagne and socialising with others. To gain access you have to e-mail the Paddock bouncer Slick and beg... No private messaged requests, please.
Forum Led by: Slick

#170 Zmeej

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 16:58

Dunno, IMHO it would be best to keep gossip about drivers in the RC forum.

The less bleed-over from one to the other the better - for one thing, it would keep Coral happy. :cool:

#171 metz

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 22:04

Stupid decision.
Wonder how much postings to this site have declined.
We can all vote with our mouse.
Bring back Bira and others not on a power trip.

#172 MightyMoose

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 22:31

On the contrary, we're not on a power trip and it shows a real lack of awareness & understanding of our role that anyone would suggest that we are.

As for the postings level, I can't talk about numbers, but I'm certain the QUALITY of the submissions is greatly improved with less of the needless baiting & ground-pawing/chest thumping that derailed not just "the drivers threads", but many others as well.

It's a shame some people seem to delight in taking this thread as merely an opportunity to "discuss moderation", there's always been a way to show your disagreement with any aspect of what's gone on and resorting to blanket critcism on the forum isn't it.



#173 Powersteer

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:50

A website on motorsport and a legendary forum for formula one which as a sport has older drivers championship than constructors posing drivers championship usually taking centre stage yet there is going to be a ban on driverr threads? Completely stupid.

:cool:

#174 pacificquay

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:28

Are people still moaning about this?

A ban on driver threads simply means not having threads called "Lewis Hamilton" or "Nico Rosberg" or whatever.

Names are not discussions.

This is a discussion forum and threads like "Can Lewis Hamilton win the title this year?" or "Nico Rosberg switches to right foot braking" or whatever are discussion points.

If people want to discuss those topics they will stay high on the front page, if they don't they'll drop away.

Individual threads for individual discussions is surely what a discussion forum is all about.

For years on this forum opening a new thread was seen as a cardinal sin - now it is encouraged and it is the much better for that.

#175 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 12:47

A tendency has developed where members are unhappy with a moderation decision an run in here to whine about it. The forum rules haven't changed, we are happy to engage and discuss the driver thread closures in here but if you have an issue with the moderation of the forum please contact the moderators privately, the moderation of the forum is not for discussion in public in any part of the forum.

From the Bulletin Board Rules

We welcome you contacting us with feedback. However, the way the Bulletin Board is run or the actions of the moderation team are not topics to be debated in public. Any such posts will be removed.


Edit: The reason for this post is that a number of posts have been removed that have attacked certain moderation actions in RC that have nothing to do with the driver threads. We are not stopping the discussion of the driver threads.

#176 Ali_G

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:53

Are people still moaning about this?

A ban on driver threads simply means not having threads called "Lewis Hamilton" or "Nico Rosberg" or whatever.

Names are not discussions.

This is a discussion forum and threads like "Can Lewis Hamilton win the title this year?" or "Nico Rosberg switches to right foot braking" or whatever are discussion points.

If people want to discuss those topics they will stay high on the front page, if they don't they'll drop away.

Individual threads for individual discussions is surely what a discussion forum is all about.

For years on this forum opening a new thread was seen as a cardinal sin - now it is encouraged and it is the much better for that.


I've often felt that those large driver's threads were the reserve of hardcore fans of those drivers and posts from outsiders were largely ignored. The only posts from outsiders which weren't ignored were troll posts.

This move has been for the better and has seen RC movement somewhat back to what we had maybe 10 years ago. Not quite the same but much better than what it was.

#177 Zmeej

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 21:36

metz :wave:

Bring back Bira and others not on a power trip.


What on earth do you mean? About a third of the dynamic of this place was the guessing as to where the tripwire for the trippage was. :cool:



#178 Jimisgod

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:20

I've often felt that those large driver's threads were the reserve of hardcore fans of those drivers and posts from outsiders were largely ignored. The only posts from outsiders which weren't ignored were troll posts.

This move has been for the better and has seen RC movement somewhat back to what we had maybe 10 years ago. Not quite the same but much better than what it was.


Unless they are banned also, there will be a proliferation of 'teammate' threads, which are about the most vitriol filled in the whole board. They always devolve into petty slanging matches between fans of each driver. At least driver threads had a fairly peaceful consensus.

#179 ApexMouse

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 13:53

Your joking.

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#180 Brawn BGP 001

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:42

Two months in and these move has been better than I ever thought it would be. :clap:

Was hard to track driver debates in 2010-12, but now debates are much more concise, there is less trolling and the forum is slowly going back to what it was a couple of years ago.

Agree with Ali_G that these big driver threads were far too much of "fan club" threads and with threads discussing things like "Hamilton's move to Merc a mistake or not" and the "Valtteri Bottas - excited to see what this kid can do" threads give a clear premise on what to discuss and it is far easier to track debate that when everything was crammed into one thread with incidents that happend eight years ago that many people have moved from etc. If you want to deabte something about a driver like a drop in form, just create a thread about it. If it is a lively debate it will still be well discussed, even more in my view and if it is largely pointless it will slip down the board.

I have no issue with the car threads because here the debate is pretty clear, discussing the cars performance and possible updates, trackside observations etc. Of course any team announcements such as change of engine supply, key staff/sponsorship movements require their own thread.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 05 March 2013 - 02:44.


#181 SophieB

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 18:28

As I suspected it would, a driver thread was closed after only a few hours despite the opening post being focused on a specific issue and indeed obeying all the other new rules.

"This isn't a playground and we won't tolerate that behaviour."

Yet each and every poster who is interested in drivers -specifically it seems in discussing Lewis Hamilton - is being treated as if this is exactly what this is. Or rather that it is a playground that the whole class is being kept from playing on because a couple of kids couldn't behave. This is not an attack on an individual moderation decision, rather an illuminating moderator comment I've quoted to illustrate an ongoing trend about the overall website direction, by the way.

It is frustrating seeing a whole bunch of cumbersome rules introduced and being reassured that discussion can still take place in threads as long as all the new hoops are jumped through only to see it stopped anyway as soon as it stars a driver who attracts very strong feelings. If people are not obeying the rules, please take issue with those specific posters. And if that means punishing a whole bunch of people who have broken the rules, I for one have no problem with that. Fairer than punishing the whole board.

Edited by SophieB, 10 March 2013 - 19:03.


#182 Alfisti

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 01:45

I do think it's a bit backward, keep the threads open but be more liberal with banning the idiots. One warning then out, people will soon figure out the standard required.

#183 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 06:19

As I suspected it would, a driver thread was closed after only a few hours despite the opening post being focused on a specific issue and indeed obeying all the other new rules.


That is precisely it, everything was in order to start a thread discussing a specific topic but almost immediately the poster and thread get attacked, the name calling starts and the thread goes completely off topic and stays off topic and for all intents and purposes its the Lewis Hamilton thread of last year. Had the majority of the posts been discussing the topic and only a few posts being off topic, like any other thread, it gets maintained and kept on course but there comes a point where it's no longer an option to try and maintain a thread and it gets closed.

If so many members want to discuss topics like this legitimately, why then do they engage the off topic posts and help in taking the thread to a point where it is no longer viable to maintain and it gets closed? Take a look at the last page, after your post and how many of those 20+ posts were contributing to a discussion based on the opening post?

It is not up to just the moderation team to keep the threads in order, we constantly repeat the same story, don't engage the trolls/off topic/attacks rather report it, by engaging you (members who engage) become part of the problem.


#184 Kristian

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:36

One of the reasons I never posted here was because of the massive threads which were so hard to join in or keep track of; now discussions are broken down more I am more inclined to post when I have time.

Its been a great decision IMO.

#185 SophieB

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 18:49

If so many members want to discuss topics like this legitimately, why then do they engage the off topic posts and help in taking the thread to a point where it is no longer viable to maintain and it gets closed? Take a look at the last page, after your post and how many of those 20+ posts were contributing to a discussion based on the opening post?

It is not up to just the moderation team to keep the threads in order, we constantly repeat the same story, don't engage the trolls/off topic/attacks rather report it, by engaging you (members who engage) become part of the problem.


Topics like what? Drivers? What team mates and former team mates think of each other? Yes, I do actually think there might be people who are interested in those things and want to talk and read about those things 'legitimately'. :confused: Frankly, it's really sad it's got to the stage where wanting to do so is now (apparently) suspicious behaviour.

And though I doubt you are literally inviting me to pick and choose which posts after mine are and are not relevant, I don't share your implied view that it's zero. What might psychologically motivate Hamilton to say what he did seemed on point even if I personally doubted the posters' conclusions. Frankly it looked more like very a small number of posters shitting up the thread to me. And who knows how many more people might have posted on point? The thread was closed within hours, after all.

I do report posts, by the way. The really egregious stuff is clear but I'd report a hell of a lot more if I knew where the line was for acceptable and unacceptable posts by means of seeing more mod responses in the threads. I don't want to be wasting people's time with what is seen in Mod HQ as a bunch of bullshit thread reports. Still, I get the distinct impression it is a deeply held principle that it all gets done in private. Fine, it's your board and I am ever mindful that it is moderated by volunteers and therefore you must do what works for you, but the policy has its consequences. One of which seems to be seeing us edging ever closer to a de facto ban on discussing (possibly) the most talked about figure in F1.



#186 Sin

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 20:25

May I suggest something from another board I hang out at? There any threads over 300 posts get closed to be opened again in a Part II maybe that would make joining the discussion easier and moderating it too... while not making the board as confusing as it is for me personally right now .... really hard to make out what has been written where before.... at the moment and what hasn't been written and if it hasn't been written where to put it.... I thought the drivers thread helped with overview

#187 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 06:33

Topics like what? Drivers? What team mates and former team mates think of each other? Yes, I do actually think there might be people who are interested in those things and want to talk and read about those things 'legitimately'. :confused: Frankly, it's really sad it's got to the stage where wanting to do so is now (apparently) suspicious behaviour.

And though I doubt you are literally inviting me to pick and choose which posts after mine are and are not relevant, I don't share your implied view that it's zero. What might psychologically motivate Hamilton to say what he did seemed on point even if I personally doubted the posters' conclusions. Frankly it looked more like very a small number of posters shitting up the thread to me. And who knows how many more people might have posted on point? The thread was closed within hours, after all.

I do report posts, by the way. The really egregious stuff is clear but I'd report a hell of a lot more if I knew where the line was for acceptable and unacceptable posts by means of seeing more mod responses in the threads. I don't want to be wasting people's time with what is seen in Mod HQ as a bunch of bullshit thread reports. Still, I get the distinct impression it is a deeply held principle that it all gets done in private. Fine, it's your board and I am ever mindful that it is moderated by volunteers and therefore you must do what works for you, but the policy has its consequences. One of which seems to be seeing us edging ever closer to a de facto ban on discussing (possibly) the most talked about figure in F1.

I don't know why you seem to think this is a personal attack. I made no comment about your posts nor did I imply anything about your views. I referred to the 20+ posts after your post that I linked to.

The thread has been cleaned up and returned to the forum and even being quite lenient on some of the posts that have remained, half the thread has been deleted, anything but "a small number of posters shitting up the thread"

As we have said repeatedly there isn't a ban on discussing drivers, all we ask is that the discussions get kept in individual threads that are topic specific like "Lewis Hamilton plans to build a museum" and Hamilton: "A duel with Button doesn't excite me"


#188 Trust

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 21:18

I do think it's a bit backward, keep the threads open but be more liberal with banning the idiots. One warning then out, people will soon figure out the standard required.

Agree. Bring back driver threads and ban the trolls.

#189 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 21:49

Or at least consolidate the threads. The permutations of Vettel vs Webber, Sepang 2013 are seemingly endless.

#190 jrg19

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 22:27

Currently 8 threads on page 1 in which the same thing is being discussed.

#191 Jovanotti

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:32

Currently 8 threads on page 1 in which the same thing is being discussed.

:up:

Just a thought about moderation under the new rules without driver threads: you might want to consider limiting the number of closely related topics allowed in the RC section.

Edited by Jovanotti, 27 March 2013 - 08:33.