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Lewis @ Mercedes: the biggest mistake of his career?


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Poll: Lewis Hamilton has made a terrible mistake (531 member(s) have cast votes)

You reckon?

  1. Nah man, he's gonna be great, relax (233 votes [44.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.13%

  2. He'll probably beat Rosberg, the rest is someone else's responsibility (139 votes [26.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.33%

  3. No biggie, he'll be back at Mclaren in 2016 (46 votes [8.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.71%

  4. OH SHI- (110 votes [20.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.83%

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#101 Velocifer

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 00:32

Or maybe completely deflated from 3 (?) years in the midfield, it could perfectly go either way... This has the potencial to ruin his career/motivation.

Quite. Hamilton was very good and patient in 2012 and might do a repeat in 2013, but somehow can't see him keeping that up for several years unless Mercedes do a miracle jump past the top 3, as let's face it, watching others become multiple champion was what was really eating him to begin with and watching from the midfield the pressure of expectation might be gone, but not the bitterness.

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#102 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 00:49

By my count (bearing in mind it's got to be voluntary and the team moved to has to have been weaker in Driver X's last season -- not going to get into who counts as a "top driver": if you're in a top team and you decide not to continue with them, that's enough) in modern times we've got

Webber (who of course it not actually a top driver) moved from Williams-BMW (which was meant to be a top team) to Red Bull (which was a midfield team) when he could have gone to BMW Sauber (which was meant to become a top team). Therefore he drove midfield Red Bull cars for two more seasons. :)

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 02 January 2013 - 00:50.


#103 boldhakka

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 02:52

But there has never been any question about his ability, that's what I am saying. He's still amongst the best drivers on the grid and the fact Vettel has had a great run in the last three years does not change that. The stats of the last 3 years might not look as good as his first 2 season's, but Lewis has still been impressive with what he has been given. With exception to a poor 5 or so races in 2011 he's been consistently fast and his thirst for victories has never slipped. I don't feel the past 3 years has damaged the perception of his ability a single bit.


The junior series are about talent and ability. F1 is about results. If it was just talent and ability, Mark Webber would be the best because of how late he started and how much of a height and weight handicap he has to overcome.

Lewis needs more wins and WDCs for the results to match his abilities.

#104 mattferg

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:50

I think previous era's have proved that the driver with the most championships isn't necessarily the driver who is remembered as the greatest. It depends who you ask of course. I know in years to come I will be educating my children and grandchildren about my experiences with F1 and Hamilton will be promoted as one of the best of his generation in my view. I was always a fan of Senna yet his stats are inferior when compared to era's since. He is still arguably the greatest racing driver alongside Jim Clark for many. I think those who just look at results rather than the story behind it are shallow in their support and you have to ask yourself whether you would seriously waste your time engaging in a conversation about such a complex topic if thats their approach? Vettel is racking up the stats in a comfortable position but that doesn't mean his rivals are lacking in ability. It took Button 9 years to start winning consistently yet he is a good driver who needed a break. Alonso hasn't won a championship for 6 years yet he's still one of the best. Personally even though I'm a Hamilton fan I think it'll be Fernando who is recognised as the driver of this generation even if the stats are not on his side. He's proven to be great in whatever car he sits in. You can look at the record books all you like to form you own opinions but its not the same for everybody.


I disagree - the Senna reference can't be used, as he passed before his peak and could have easily won more championships before retiring - this is why he's remembered as one of the greats. Alonso is remembered as such for finally topping Schumacher, however if a certain new German prevents him from ever winning a WDC again, things will be seen differently. Same goes for Hammy's time at Merc - if there are still tweetgate disasters and he doesn't shine through their 'shitbox' as buttoneer put it, Vettel will secure his position as the great of his generation.

Tbh I'm not even sure he and Lewis are in the same generation as Alonso. For me personally it seems like there was Schumi/DC/Hakkinen etc, then Button/Webber/Raikkonen/Alonso, and now Vettel/Hamilton/Perez/Hulk/Rosberg.

#105 bourbon

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 03:55

But there has never been any question about his ability, that's what I am saying. He's still amongst the best drivers on the grid and the fact Vettel has had a great run in the last three years does not change that. The stats of the last 3 years might not look as good as his first 2 season's, but Lewis has still been impressive with what he has been given. With exception to a poor 5 or so races in 2011 he's been consistently fast and his thirst for victories has never slipped. I don't feel the past 3 years has damaged the perception of his ability a single bit.


It is always the car + driver. If Lewis looks impressive losing in a poorly performing or unreliable car or a poor team effort, then believe me, the winner, with a better car or better team effort looks even more impressive. The results do not care about any "story of the race" - everybody has a story (on and off the track) and you can't possibly take them all into consideration. It is a purely objective measure based on crossing the finish line.

This is even more true from a historical perspective. The thing to remember is that of 800 drivers, there have only been 35 WDCS - these cannot be undervalued as they are terrifically hard to get - each and every one, no matter how dismissive couch "experts" and writing "experts", pundits past their due date and disgruntled drivers like to pretend otherwise.

So Lewis has already established his legacy in the sport based on having earned the most coveted prize. It is an award for the driver, but also for his car and how the combination worked together (The WCC is the same thing, twofold). This information underscores just how difficult it is to earn a WDC, because in addition to everything else, there are certain aspects of the combination that are completely outside of the driver's control.

Tbh I'm not even sure he and Lewis are in the same generation as Alonso. For me personally it seems like there was Schumi/DC/Hakkinen etc, then Button/Webber/Raikkonen/Alonso, and now Vettel/Hamilton/Perez/Hulk/Rosberg.


True, but you can't ignore the overlap. Schumi definitely has to be considered with the Alonso/Raikkonen era as well because he drove 5 years (in his first racing career) with them. Button/Raikkonen didn't even gain their WDCs until overlapping into this new era. Considering they have driven with the younger set for 6 years (4 for Kimi) - one would be hard pressed to say that they were not apart of the current era. They are a part of 2 eras which encompass their generation. The same will likely be true of Vettel/Hamilton/Perez and gang, as when they are in their 30's, they will be racing with a new 'younger set' that never raced with Button/Webber/Raikkonen/Alonso in their prime. Schumi technically overlapped into 3...

Edited by bourbon, 02 January 2013 - 04:20.


#106 seahawk

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:23

I get what you're saying. Alonso got huge credit for performing so well in a not so great car this past season whereas when Vettel wins people just say he had the best car.


Alonso in Ferraris of the last few years.
Schumacher in the crap Ferraris of the first years.
Senna in some not so great cars.

For me legends are formed when drivers perform superbly in cars considered not top-notch. Winning in a 2004 Ferrari or 2011 RBR is something one must expect from any decent F1 driver.


#107 bourbon

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 06:56

Alonso in Ferraris of the last few years.
Schumacher in the crap Ferraris of the first years.
Senna in some not so great cars.

For me legends are formed when drivers perform superbly in cars considered not top-notch. Winning in a 2004 Ferrari or 2011 RBR is something one must expect from any decent F1 driver.


Then they are all legends for you already. Every WDC on the grid has proven themselves able in a "not top notch" car. Vettel in 2008; Hamilton in most of 2009; Raikkonen in many years, most recently 2009; Alonso lately, Schumi as mentioned; Button in 2011.

For many people, however, the legends are created in time - certainly after the driver retires, and usually more years beyond to get a hindsight (20/20) perspective on the career as a whole and of those that were driven against. In the long term, 'wins' and 'stats' generally become the sole basis for comparison.

#108 seahawk

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:56

Then they are all legends for you already. Every WDC on the grid has proven themselves able in a "not top notch" car. Vettel in 2008; Hamilton in most of 2009; Raikkonen in many years, most recently 2009; Alonso lately, Schumi as mentioned; Button in 2011.

For many people, however, the legends are created in time - certainly after the driver retires, and usually more years beyond to get a hindsight (20/20) perspective on the career as a whole and of those that were driven against. In the long term, 'wins' and 'stats' generally become the sole basis for comparison.


Yes, the great drivers shine in bad cars. Although I think Vettel in 2008, Button in 2011 and Lewis in 2009 were not on the same level as Schumacher in 1996 or Senna in some years. Alonso this year was also outstanding, although the last races put a little dent into his record. I am looking forward to Lewis in the Merc, because if the car is bad, it will help to get a better idea of his qualities. It takes a lot of mental strength to fight against the odds (and no fighting against a dominating RBR is not the same as driving a car which is barely able to make a podium)

#109 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:18

Race wins are good and would be part of the legacy, of course. That is more or less the position that Button and Raikkonen are in at the moment, and I don't doubt that their wins in 2012 will sit well with their fans. However, if a driver goes a few years without being considered a threat for the championship, then surely his profile would drop. Other drivers, including some new ones, would have the opportunity to show their mettle in tight championship battles (as has been happening with Vettel, for example) while Lewis wouldn't be part of the story (like MS in recent years, for example).

I don't believe Hamilton's stock will fall if he doesn't win a championship in the next couple of years because he is already respected for what he has achieved. He has already won the ultimate prize and has shown since what a brilliant racer he is regardless of not winning it every year. If he goes to Mercedes and pushes the car to the maximum and wins races, then it'll be a job well done. The focus is long term with 2014 being a target year for Lewis. He will always be a threat in the championship because his rivals respect what he can do. Even if he's out of the championship fight but challenging for wins late on in the season, he is a threat.

Ye, Mercedes surely doesn't intend to win championships and puts a whole lot of money in F1 just for the fun of it... titles would be nice, but they don't aim for them.
...not sure if...

If that is a sarcastic slant on what 'you' thought I said then you are completely wrong. I suggest reading again.

It is always the car + driver. If Lewis looks impressive losing in a poorly performing or unreliable car or a poor team effort, then believe me, the winner, with a better car or better team effort looks even more impressive. The results do not care about any "story of the race" - everybody has a story (on and off the track) and you can't possibly take them all into consideration. It is a purely objective measure based on crossing the finish line.

This is even more true from a historical perspective. The thing to remember is that of 800 drivers, there have only been 35 WDCS - these cannot be undervalued as they are terrifically hard to get - each and every one, no matter how dismissive couch "experts" and writing "experts", pundits past their due date and disgruntled drivers like to pretend otherwise.

So Lewis has already established his legacy in the sport based on having earned the most coveted prize. It is an award for the driver, but also for his car and how the combination worked together (The WCC is the same thing, twofold). This information underscores just how difficult it is to earn a WDC, because in addition to everything else, there are certain aspects of the combination that are completely outside of the driver's control.

You've basically said here what I have been saying all along. To win a championship you need everything on your side and a healthy dose of luck. One thing is for sure and that is Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton are the three top drivers in F1 at the moment with Kimi getting back to his best not far behind IMO. If we look back to last season we see all three driving at the top of their game with only two having the consistent support they needed in order to challenge for the championship. McLaren were not able to provide Lewis with the support he needed last season and as you say, some things are out of the drivers control. That doesn't take anything away from the driver IMO. Lewis still showed why he was one of the best last year regardless of where he came in the championship. McLaren produced a car that was the fastest for significant periods during the season, but reliability was an issue and the team struggled with the pressure early on making silly mistakes. I think after 2011 Lewis came back with a point to prove and he silenced the critics with his driving. This time though it was the team that failed. It really was a championship he could have won and this discussion would have been very different right now had it worked out. The thing for me is I can still see the talent whereas most of you are focussing on the results to judge his ability. If only it was as simple as that.

#110 Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:37

2014 will be the teller.

Will they have the resources in place, ie wind tunnel, properly motivated staff, competant technical directors, the ABILITY to develop in-season at the Red Bull et al pace etc.

Remember, in 2009 they had a winning design that they had virtually over 6 months more than anyone else to develop and they were caught up in 9 races.....

#111 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:45

2014 will be the teller.

Will they have the resources in place, ie wind tunnel, properly motivated staff, competant technical directors, the ABILITY to develop in-season at the Red Bull et al pace etc.

Remember, in 2009 they had a winning design that they had virtually over 6 months more than anyone else to develop and they were caught up in 9 races.....

Indeed, time will tell. Mercedes have attracted some key staff over the past 12 months and hopefully the foundations are in place. Although their double DRS was a failure (apart from China), it showed they have the balls to take a gamble and innovate beyond the opposition. They have tough competition in terms of development pace but for the good of the sport I hope they succeed and we have yet another competitive team on the grid. What does annoy me is that Hamilton was criticised for always driving in a top team, yet now he has taken a gamble he's being laughed at. Not good form.

#112 AnR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:53

Funny how this turns out to be a measure of Hamilton in Mercedes, even though he and his teammate won all off these kinds of poll:s they haven't produced a title while they've raced together...

Lewis is without doubt a talented driver but he needs to have a season without a "gate-affair" and show he can produce a WCC within a team before you can measure him against Vettel and Alonso IMO, perhaps Kimi who has 2 WCC and a WDC.





#113 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:59

Lewis is without doubt a talented driver but he needs to have a season without a "gate-affair" and show he can produce a WCC within a team before you can measure him against Vettel and Alonso IMO, perhaps Kimi who has 2 WCC and a WDC.

Hamilton needs to go to a team capable of winning a WCC before such a challenge can be decided by fans. Afterall its a team effort and a WCC is not won by one driver. Kimi had to leave McLaren to win any of his championships so perhaps its a trend associated to the team rather than Lewis? I think Hamilton has already proved he is worthy of being compared to his rivals.

#114 britishtrident

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:59

This has been discussed to death already in other threads, what will happen so lets wait and see however I am less optimistic about Mercedes 2013 chances in the wake of recent changes within the team.

#115 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:03

I don't see much laughter.

#116 aditya-now

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 10:32

I don't see much laughter.


I find it interesting that people automatically assume that Lewis will have a hard time at Mercedes GP.

It could very easily happen au contraire, with Lewis even becoming WDC 2013. His capacity as a driver and the ongoing reset at Mercedes that Ross Brawn stands for (after all they had lost Loic Bigois mid-season in 2012 - which lead to the decline in their stakes; by now they will have addressed this problem in the aero department) does not warrant an abysmal year in 2013.

Then, in 2014 the cards are being reshuffled for everyone, and at the latest then I believe we will see the thing happen Lewis was going for. Mercedes have a great engineering capacity when it comes to engines, and they might not supply the same top notch engines to McLaren that they themselves will have (along the lines of Mercedes GP having the latest update of the engine starting 2014, McLaren having the second-latest. The rest is Lewis' own doing - and after 2011 which was an interesting meltdown I have seen in the history of any driver I see a lot of maturity and poise in Lewis now that was not there before.


#117 Clatter

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:34

I find it interesting that people automatically assume that Lewis will have a hard time at Mercedes GP.

It could very easily happen au contraire, with Lewis even becoming WDC 2013. His capacity as a driver and the ongoing reset at Mercedes that Ross Brawn stands for (after all they had lost Loic Bigois mid-season in 2012 - which lead to the decline in their stakes; by now they will have addressed this problem in the aero department) does not warrant an abysmal year in 2013.

Then, in 2014 the cards are being reshuffled for everyone, and at the latest then I believe we will see the thing happen Lewis was going for. Mercedes have a great engineering capacity when it comes to engines, and they might not supply the same top notch engines to McLaren that they themselves will have (along the lines of Mercedes GP having the latest update of the engine starting 2014, McLaren having the second-latest. The rest is Lewis' own doing - and after 2011 which was an interesting meltdown I have seen in the history of any driver I see a lot of maturity and poise in Lewis now that was not there before.


I just do not see this happening. The engines will have to be homologated and I don't see any manufacturer doing that for multiple specs of engine.


#118 garoidb

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:39

Another way to look at this would be to consider other candidates for biggest mistakes of his career. I think the jury is out on the management deal with XIX, which is very tied up with the success of the Mercedes move anyway. Apart from some driving errors, I cannot think of any other major career mistakes. Did he have other opportunities after 2007 and would it have made any sense to pursue them?

Edited by garoidb, 02 January 2013 - 11:40.


#119 maverick69

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 11:58

I just do not see this happening. The engines will have to be homologated and I don't see any manufacturer doing that for multiple specs of engine.


The engines per se do - but all of the regeneration systems etc. are free from homologation. Ergo - Merc should get an advantage in terms of the integration and specification of said systems (in theory at least).

Edited by maverick69, 02 January 2013 - 12:05.


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#120 Clatter

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:17

The engines per se do - but all of the regeneration systems etc. are free from homologation. Ergo - Merc should get an advantage in terms of the integration and specification of said systems (in theory at least).


Still don't see it happening.

Edited by Clatter, 02 January 2013 - 12:17.


#121 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:24

So is it worth Mercedes even trying if the armchair experts can already see into the future? Seems like a waste of their time if its a foregone conclusion.

#122 Rikhart

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:26

So is it worth Mercedes even trying if the armchair experts can already see into the future? Seems like a waste of their time if its a foregone conclusion.


Its not looking into the future, its more looking into the past...

#123 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:29

Its not looking into the future, its more looking into the past...

I quite agree and think people need a little more scope. Look at Red Bull pre 2009 for instance. If teams are never expected to improve, then we won't be able to call F1 a competitive sport.

Edited by tifosiMac, 02 January 2013 - 12:30.


#124 Mauseri

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:36

I'm not so pessimistic of Lewis' move. If he beats Rosberg with his speed, takes some top-3 qualifying slots, regular podiums and maybe a win, his value will go up. At McLaren it was slowly but steadily going down anyway.

And who knows if Mercedes will improve.. Last year they had a fast car, at least at times. With a driver who would perform more regularly more is possible.

McLaren is still a top team, but I'm excepting it to go down sooner or later and Lewis made the right choice to leave before it sunk. Should he have waited for a position at Ferrari or Red Bull? I don't think these teams need him as long as they have Vettel and Alonso. Mercedes needed and were ready to pay.

Edited by Mauseri, 02 January 2013 - 12:39.


#125 Alcibiades

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 12:46

Still don't see it happening.


As I understand it the advantage is also that the engine manufacturer knows the specification of the engine before the teams they sell engines to and so can integrate it into the design of the car as a whole earlier. This will be a major advantage for 2014.

#126 Clatter

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 13:57

As I understand it the advantage is also that the engine manufacturer knows the specification of the engine before the teams they sell engines to and so can integrate it into the design of the car as a whole earlier. This will be a major advantage for 2014.


I think thats a very minor advantage. The measurements for the engine are pretty much fixed in the regs.

#127 Lazy

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 14:20

I think thats a very minor advantage. The measurements for the engine are pretty much fixed in the regs.


Indeed, Brawn had to hack parts off the 2009 chassis to accommodate the Merc engine but it still went pretty well.

Can't see how it's a big mistake for Lewis though. The pressure is off him next year as expectations are low and I've not much doubt he will be quicker than Nico, I think he will find Nico much easier to beat than Jenson, so he can just enjoy himself in 2013.

If the car is still not competitive in 2014 he's still young and can think about a move to a top team for 2015.

I think it's clear he couldn't carry on at McLaren even if it is just to find out that the grass isn't so green on the other side and return for 2015.

#128 Burtros

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 14:26

to early to tell.

Hes clearly banking on 2014 with the move though, so I think it'll be 2 years from now before there any sort of worthwhile awnser.

#129 garoidb

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 14:30

I'm not so pessimistic of Lewis' move. If he beats Rosberg with his speed, takes some top-3 qualifying slots, regular podiums and maybe a win, his value will go up. At McLaren it was slowly but steadily going down anyway.


He is currently viewed as a top three driver, so I don't know that such things would make his value go up. If Vettel and Alonso continue to duke it out for WDCs, we will get to see aspects of team leadership, championship strategy and racecraft in pressurised situations that don't arise for drivers not contending for the WDC. This is what Lewis may miss out on. While he drove an excellent season this year, he did not have to go into championship mode at any stage and so we have not seen how well he would handle that.

#130 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 14:34

He is currently viewed as a top three driver, so I don't know that such things would make his value go up. If Vettel and Alonso continue to duke it out for WDCs, we will get to see aspects of team leadership, championship strategy and racecraft in pressurised situations that don't arise for drivers not contending for the WDC. This is what Lewis may miss out on. While he drove an excellent season this year, he did not have to go into championship mode at any stage and so we have not seen how well he would handle that.

Has he not already competed for and won a WDC? I think he's shown he can get the job done if in the position to do so.

#131 garoidb

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 14:35

Indeed, Brawn had to hack parts off the 2009 chassis to accommodate the Merc engine but it still went pretty well.

Can't see how it's a big mistake for Lewis though. The pressure is off him next year as expectations are low and I've not much doubt he will be quicker than Nico, I think he will find Nico much easier to beat than Jenson, so he can just enjoy himself in 2013.


There is a contradiction there. He will have to establish himself as better than Nico. Nico has the better situation, whereby he will get a lot of credit for even being close to Lewis (and certainly for beating him). I'm not so sure Jenson is better than Nico, by the way.

If the car is still not competitive in 2014 he's still young and can think about a move to a top team for 2015.


That very much depends on the right opportunity being available at short notice. It is more likely that he would start negotiating for a 2016 drive in mid to late 2014 (although I am sure Mercedes would have a good story about how they know what is wrong and have taken the steps needed to ensure they will be a top team in 2015).

#132 ayali

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 14:56

Indeed, Brawn had to hack parts off the 2009 chassis to accommodate the Merc engine but it still went pretty well.

Can't see how it's a big mistake for Lewis though. The pressure is off him next year as expectations are low and I've not much doubt he will be quicker than Nico, I think he will find Nico much easier to beat than Jenson, so he can just enjoy himself in 2013.

If the car is still not competitive in 2014 he's still young and can think about a move to a top team for 2015.

I beg to differ, expectations at Mercedes will be high.
Mercedes have let Haug go partly because of the failure of their F1 program, they have hired a bunch of engineers and a very well paid driver.

The pressure is fully on the team and Lewis to deliver this season.
If not heads will roll and I can even see Mercedes questioning it's involvement in the sport again.

I'd say the minimum objectives for Mercedes in 2013 should be:

- 3rd place in WCC
- 2 wins or more
- 2 poles or more
- not being completely out-developed by the top teams

For Lewis, he has to be consistently better than Nico Rosberg and out-score him by quite some margin in the WDC

Imo anything less and the finger-pointing will start both in Stuttgart/Brackley and the press


#133 garoidb

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:08

Has he not already competed for and won a WDC? I think he's shown he can get the job done if in the position to do so.


Well, answering that point could be a whole thread on its own. Let's not go over 2007 and 2008 here.

The question is whether he can, in a few years, be considered equally accomplished to Vettel and Alonso if they become even more seasoned WDC contenders while he has been chasing individual race results for Mercedes without the pressure of errors or DNFs having career defining implications. It is a different level.

#134 aditya-now

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:08

I beg to differ, expectations at Mercedes will be high.
Mercedes have let Haug go partly because of the failure of their F1 program, they have hired a bunch of engineers and a very well paid driver.

The pressure is fully on the team and Lewis to deliver this season.
If not heads will roll and I can even see Mercedes questioning it's involvement in the sport again.

I'd say the minimum objectives for Mercedes in 2013 should be:

- 3rd place in WCC
- 2 wins or more
- 2 poles or more
- not being completely out-developed by the top teams

For Lewis, he has to be consistently better than Nico Rosberg and out-score him by quite some margin in the WDC

Imo anything less and the finger-pointing will start both in Stuttgart/Brackley and the press


Nico was Formula 3000 champ in 2005, Lewis was Formula 3000 champ in 2006. Thus it will be tighter between them than many expect, IMHO. What separates them clearly is that Nico never had such competitive cars in F1 that Lewis had.

Of course, if Rosberg goes on to defeat Hamilton it will be major upheaval and a definite shift in the relative power structure of F1 drivers. IF, that is. And of course, then being @ Mercedes will turn out to be the biggest mistake in Lewis' career.


#135 Rybo

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:43

Really depends if Brackley can build a reliable and competitive car.

#136 Sakae

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:44

Nico was Formula 3000 champ in 2005, Lewis was Formula 3000 champ in 2006. Thus it will be tighter between them than many expect, IMHO. What separates them clearly is that Nico never had such competitive cars in F1 that Lewis had.

Of course, if Rosberg goes on to defeat Hamilton it will be major upheaval and a definite shift in the relative power structure of F1 drivers. IF, that is. And of course, then being @ Mercedes will turn out to be the biggest mistake in Lewis' career.

I doubt that. Hamilton (like Alonso) wears a lot of Teflon on him, as history can attest. Brackley Works, bearing name of Mercedes, has their work cut out for them, no doubt. Press will be merciless if Hamilton is not going to get his way.

Edited by Sakae, 02 January 2013 - 15:46.


#137 MP422

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 15:53

Nico was Formula 3000 champ in 2005, Lewis was Formula 3000 champ in 2006. Thus it will be tighter between them than many expect, IMHO. What separates them clearly is that Nico never had such competitive cars in F1 that Lewis had.

Of course, if Rosberg goes on to defeat Hamilton it will be major upheaval and a definite shift in the relative power structure of F1 drivers. IF, that is. And of course, then being @ Mercedes will turn out to be the biggest mistake in Lewis' career.


Alot more then that separates Rosberg and Hamilton. We have not seen Rosberg under the scrutiny and pressure of a title challenge and the same expectations that Hamilton has dealt with.

#138 maverick69

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:13

I doubt that. Hamilton (like Alonso) wears a lot of Teflon on him, as history can attest.


What frickin' history are you talking about?

If Hamilton so much a farts then he is pounced up on. I remember around this time last year that there was a god knows how many pages thread on the fact that he did a photoshoot for GQ magazine.

Shit sticks to Hamilton. Make no mistake.

God forbid if he dropped the f-bomb on the podium.....





#139 olliek88

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:29

What frickin' history are you talking about?

If Hamilton so much a farts then he is pounced up on. I remember around this time last year that there was a god knows how many pages thread on the fact that he did a photoshoot for GQ magazine.

Shit sticks to Hamilton. Make no mistake.

God forbid if he dropped the f-bomb on the podium.....


OT but Lewis doesn't help himself sometimes, tweeting confidential telemetry, slagging off his team mate on twitter because he thought he'd unfollowed him, the infamous iz it coz i iz black "joke". I don't recall any other driver making such a tit of themselves when its so needless.



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#140 maverick69

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 16:39

OT but Lewis doesn't help himself sometimes, tweeting confidential telemetry, slagging off his team mate on twitter because he thought he'd unfollowed him, the infamous iz it coz i iz black "joke". I don't recall any other driver making such a tit of themselves when its so needless.


Maybe you should watch a bit more F1........ There is a pretty hearty catalogue of drivers making rather large tits out if themselves..... My previous examples included......

#141 olliek88

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:26

Maybe you should watch a bit more F1........ There is a pretty hearty catalogue of drivers making rather large tits out if themselves..... My previous examples included......


I honestly can't see your previous examples, can you quote them? I'm referring to off track events just for clarity. I'll give you Kimi though, he did fall over that fence, he looked like a right tit after that...

#142 Risil

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:31

Maybe you should watch a bit more F1........ There is a pretty hearty catalogue of drivers making rather large tits out if themselves..... My previous examples included......


Perhaps, but the whole lying-to-the-stewards-then-getting-a-senior-team-member-to-take-the-hit thing at the 2009 Australian Grand Prix upset a lot of people. Not just fans, but inside, influential people who you do not want to upset.

#143 MP422

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:35

OT but Lewis doesn't help himself sometimes, tweeting confidential telemetry, slagging off his team mate on twitter because he thought he'd unfollowed him, the infamous iz it coz i iz black "joke". I don't recall any other driver making such a tit of themselves when its so needless.


The twitter stuff is bs. Mountains out of mole hills. The "maybe it's because i'm black" comment was a joke... There was no "iz it coz i iz". Black, Hispanic, Asian and White comedians tell different jokes sometimes... Most likely due to their perspectives.

#144 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:40

Well, answering that point could be a whole thread on its own. Let's not go over 2007 and 2008 here.

I'm guessing you are an individual who dismisses his achievements from those years so I think its best if we don't discuss that after all. Unfortunately that puts an end to this line of discussion too if we can't look at history and give credit where it is due.

I know Hamilton is very capable of challenging and winning a WDC. You may think otherwise but I feel pretty damn confident with my opinion.

#145 H2H

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:40


I think we can only tell for sure in a couple of years. 2013 might well be rocky for Mercedes, 2014 will reset the game to a good degree. Mercedes as a team should be in a much better shape to play the game.

#146 olliek88

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:44

The twitter stuff is bs. Mountains out of mole hills. The "maybe it's because i'm black" comment was a joke... There was no "iz it coz i iz". Black, Hispanic, Asian and White comedians tell different jokes sometimes... Most likely due to their perspectives.


I know it was a joke, hence i said it was a joke. It was just unfunny and in very poor taste.

“Just noticed @jensonbutton unfollowed, that’s a shame... I thought we respected one another but clearly he doesn’t,” Accusing his team mate of a lack of respect and tweeting confidential information is a little more than a mole hill IMO.

Anyway OT.

#147 tifosiMac

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:50

“Just noticed @jensonbutton unfollowed, that’s a shame... I thought we respected one another but clearly he doesn’t,” Accusing his team mate of a lack of respect and tweeting confidential information is a little more than a mole hill IMO.

Considering how both drivers dealt with it, I would say it was a misunderstanding that was very quickly brushed under the carpet and didn't come of anything. Mountains on forums don't always give a true indication of real life issues. It may have been a big thing to you, but most of us can brush off silly twitter banter and forgive friends for misunderstandings.

#148 Buttoneer

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:54

A link to the opening post;

http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=6084744

You may consider it worth discussing what 'other' mistakes there has been in terms of his career in order to answer the question posed, but substantive discussion of those points is really very off topic.

#149 MP422

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:56

I know it was a joke, hence i said it was a joke. It was just unfunny and in very poor taste.

“Just noticed @jensonbutton unfollowed, that’s a shame... I thought we respected one another but clearly he doesn’t,” Accusing his team mate of a lack of respect and tweeting confidential information is a little more than a mole hill IMO.

Anyway OT.


Is it though ?.... in the mind of a man who knows he has a Hunny mill in the bank and 90 mill offer on the table at another team. It just looks stupid cause they made him take it down. The telemetry is whatever... Newey wasn't in the next garage on his Iphone going... "Oh that's how they do that !!". After Q3 none the less. It's all nonsense junk news.

#150 garoidb

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 17:59

I'm guessing you are an individual who dismisses his achievements from those years so I think its best if we don't discuss that after all. Unfortunately that puts an end to this line of discussion too if we can't look at history and give credit where it is due.


It is off topic to this thread. I doubt there is anyone on this thread who has not made up their minds about it already. My posts concern the effects of the next three years at Mercedes on the relative standing of Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton.

I know Hamilton is very capable of challenging and winning a WDC. You may think otherwise but I feel pretty damn confident with my opinion.


The same goes for Button and Raikkonen (and others who have yet to have the opportunity). The point is that it is much more challenging to drive on the limit for a championship, and we see much more what a driver is made of under these circumstances. We will not be seeing that from Lewis unless the Mercedes is more competitive than of late.