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Daytona Prototypes to enter Le Mans 2014?


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51 replies to this topic

Poll: ? (53 member(s) have cast votes)

Should DPs be allowed to run at Le Mans?

  1. YES, as separate class (DP) (13 votes [24.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.53%

  2. YES, performance balanced with LMP1 (2 votes [3.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.77%

  3. YES, performance balanced with LMP2 (2 votes [3.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.77%

  4. YES, integrated with either LMP1 or LMP2 class but NOT performance balanced (6 votes [11.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.32%

  5. I GUESS SO, I wouldn't mind seeing them @ Sarthe (6 votes [11.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.32%

  6. ERR, probably not, it would be better if they stayed away (8 votes [15.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.09%

  7. NO WAY IN HELL, STAY AWAY FROM OUR SACRED GROUND (16 votes [30.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.19%

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#1 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:16

The word on the street (or rather, twitter) is that the NASCAR-associated Daytona Prototypes will be allowed to run at Le Mans 24 hours in 2014. No word in what form (if at all), or if any of this will be revealed this Friday at Daytona when the ALMS / Grand-am 2014 merger series class structure will be announced, but nevertheless it is an interesting piece of news/rumour. Sounds like part of the plan that made NASCAR to agree to some of ACO's terms to me...

In any case, this has already raised some noise in the air. As most of you know, unlike the Le Mans Prototypes, the Daytona Prototypes are near-spec machines using spec tires and ancient technology, making them considerably slower than even some of the GT classes (unless speeded up), not to mention the LMPs. Their NASCAR-like bodywork kits are put on top of external chassis configuration and the engine development is extremely limited. Everything is performance balanced and tweaked to maximum, and the organizers try to make sure that no-one invents anything exciting, thus making "manufacturer competition" meaningless. This all means that the class is not extremely well praised outside North America (or, in fact outside the diehard fans of Grand-Am). So you can sort of see why not everybody would like to have them around in France... they will be part of the new North American sportscar championship witthout any doubt, but what about LM?

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 18:21.


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#2 ArnageWRC

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:25

Er, no thanks!! Keep the DP’s were they belong, they have no place at Le Mans or in the FiA WEC. However, this doesn’t surprise me – since the announcement of the ALMS/GrandAm ‘merger’ I’ve been waiting for something like this. They want their series to remain relevant....but with their cars included. The WEC/Le Mans is all about current/future Road car technology, DP's are pre-historic. The FiA/ ACO should tell them were to go.

#3 Risil

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:26

Maybe they can have 2014's "56th Garage" slot for experimental machines...

#4 Kerch

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:29

I actually quite like the idea of something to bridge the LMP2 and the GT classes (at least visually), just not sure these are the best way to do it.

#5 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:33

Well, the US-only categories have raced at Le Mans in the past too (stock cars in the 70's, then LMGTPs not so long ago etc) but the very nature of the DPs sort of makes them... unneeded.

Personally I don't really fancy having them outside North America either, but if they DO COME, I would prefer to keep them as separate, fifth class - the DP category. It becomes very confusing for the non-diehard fans to follow if those tube frame spec dinosaurs run inside one of the existing classes, especially if only few cars are allowed in (as some sources now claim)

#6 Henri Greuter

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:34

I sincerely hope these contraptions will be kept out of Le Mans forever.
But then....
Can we really ever expect more factory supported teams at Le Mans other then Audi and Toyota? (We still must wait for Porsche long enough for them to sensibly cancel the project....)

I think that ACO has learned its lesson back in the early 90s when we had a race with only 29 eligible cars.
I won't be surprised if the ACO rather wants a flourishing race with lots of teams involved, even if that means they have to go along with these butt-ugly DPs. And if not enough competition that we prefer to see will appear, then I think it is inevitable we will get tos see those contraptions.
Sometimes you hope you're wrong. I am so in this case.....

henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 January 2013 - 18:35.


#7 Victor_RO

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:37

I sincerely hope these contraptions will be kept out of Le Mans forever.
But then....
Can we really ever expect more factory supported teams at Le Mans other then Audi and Toyota?

I think that ACO has learned its lesson back in the early 90s when we had a race with only 29 eligible cars.
I won't be surprised if the ACO rather wants a flourishing race with lots of teams involved, even if that means they have to go along with these butt-ugly DPs. And if not enough competition that we prefer to see will appear, then I think it is inevitable we will get tos see those contraptions.
Sometimes you hope you're wrong. I am so in this case.....

henri


Porsche is coming back next year, so hopefully three factory teams will be there next year. As for the DPs, let's see what 2014 and onwards brings in terms of both the class structure in US sportscar racing AND the direction that the future technical regulations will actually take. Personally, I'm not going to express a full opinion in this case until the full picture becomes clear.

#8 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:38

Maybe they can have 2014's "56th Garage" slot for experimental machines...


What the ACO should really do, instead of fooling around is extend the pit facilities so that we could finally have more cars entering the race. It is ludicrous that in this day and age circuit of this magnitude only has the capacity to handle 56 cars, when tracks three times smaller can easily sustain infinitely bigger grids.

Making Le Mans stand-alone race and not part of the WEC would also fix some of the entry issues and actually allow DPs in

#9 ArnageWRC

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:38

They don't have a problem with entries at the moment. If any new class of car were to be allowed then I'd much rather see the SuperGT cars before the DP's.

#10 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:44

They don't have a problem with entries at the moment.


Yes they do!

FIA WEC grants auto entries for LM, which
a) Makes ACO to turn down most of the request from teams running in ALMS, ELMS or elsewhere
b) Limits the size of the WEC grid as they can only have 30-35 full season entries
c) Means that you can enter the biggest race in the world with money alone, unlike in the past when most of the (non-works) teams had to earn their entry by winning class in ALMS, FIA GT etc

On top of that the overgrowth of LMP2 (Oreca-Nissans) means that quality teams like IMSA, Aston Martin etc are turned down easily.

With pit extension ýou could probably have sth like 65-70 grid spots which would make everything more flexible, as well as allow more exotic entries

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 18:46.


#11 gm914

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:45

I would rather see NASCAR trucks at La Sarthe than the DP's.

Actually.... :cool:

#12 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:54

I would rather see NASCAR trucks at La Sarthe than the DP's.

Actually.... :cool:


Did you happen to follow the Thunderhill 25 hours some time ago?

http://www.theepocht...urs-322956.html
If not, scroll down a little :p

#13 ArnageWRC

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 18:55

Yes they do!

FIA WEC grants auto entries for LM, which
a) Makes ACO to turn down most of the request from teams running in ALMS, ELMS or elsewhere
b) Limits the size of the WEC grid as they can only have 30-35 full season entries
c) Means that you can enter the biggest race in the world with money alone, unlike in the past when most of the (non-works) teams had to earn their entry by winning class in ALMS, FIA GT etc

On top of that the overgrowth of LMP2 (Oreca-Nissans) means that quality teams like IMSA, Aston Martin etc are turned down easily.

With pit extension ýou could probably have sth like 65-70 grid spots which would make everything more flexible, as well as allow more exotic entries


You've mis-understood me. I meant they don't have a problem attracting entrants - the issue is the space for all the teams that want to enter. 56 isn't enough.


#14 gm914

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:00

Did you happen to follow the Thunderhill 25 hours some time ago?

http://www.theepocht...urs-322956.html
If not, scroll down a little :p

Ha no I didn't. Awesome, thanks for that Sonny.

#15 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:03

You've mis-understood me. I meant they don't have a problem attracting entrants - the issue is the space for all the teams that want to enter. 56 isn't enough.


Oh okay, so we agree after all :wave:

It is obviously better to have too many entrants knocking on the door than the opposite, but the current situation is still far from ideal.

#16 ArnageWRC

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:20

Oh okay, so we agree after all :wave:

It is obviously better to have too many entrants knocking on the door than the opposite, but the current situation is still far from ideal.


Absolutely, and I'm not sure what can be done apart from building new pits. I've often wondered about pre-qualifying but that is a non starter. While it is a round of the WEC, those teams should get first refusal - I don't understand the need for DP's. There are a huge amount of politics involved, especially from NASCAR/GrandAm/France, etc


#17 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:34

Well, if they are too lazy to work with the pit extensions (which again in my mind should be the number #1 priority of the ACO right now, not tasting wines with the Bahrainese royal family), or if they really really really cannot lose the WEC round status for some reason, Pre-Qualifying could be a very viable option. just Throw the god damn reserve lists away.

Bring back the elimination aspect of the Test Day but make some changes. Invite EVERYONE who requested an entry to that Test (except clearly talentless idiots like Atlas EFX and other clowns who cannot be allowed in) and make it a two day session. Because of the huge entry numbers you would get, split the entry list to half, and the first 50% of the cars would run on Saturday, the rest on Sunday. Then eliminate 5-10 slowest cars of each class - or whatever amount you wish, depending on the size of the grid. LMP1 should naturally have the largest amount of cars allowed in, then the faster of the GT classes. LMP2, slower GT class (and the possible DP mess) are secondary in importance in my opinion.

TELEVISE, or at least stream the event, and this could become a very exciting prelude to the 24 Hours.

Of course, this will never happen.

#18 Henri Greuter

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:35

Porsche is coming back next year, so hopefully three factory teams will be there next year. As for the DPs, let's see what 2014 and onwards brings in terms of both the class structure in US sportscar racing AND the direction that the future technical regulations will actually take. Personally, I'm not going to express a full opinion in this case until the full picture becomes clear.



We were almost certain to see three factory teams last year (2012) too remember????
And with 2014 being almost 1.5 years away from today and ever more and more European car companies still in big problems there is still enough time for the two current factory teams to be forced to withdraw and for Porsche to backtrack another time like they did the last time after working on a project for quite some time already.

Henri

#19 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:42

Agreed, 2014 might not prove as rich in terms of factory entries as one might think. I would say that the possibilities right now are

Porsche - 99%
Audi - 75%
Toyota - 50%
Others - 10%

Toyota so low because of their (and generally Japan's) famous history of disappearing quick if the resuls aren't there - or even if they are. The coming of the new regulations certainly aren't helping, TS030 has only raced for 1½ years by the end of this year. Also Audi might just quit too to let their other brand triumph again, despite of what their PR machines are now saying.

Honda might up their game but likely just give more resources to their selected customer team (JRM/Strakka/Pickett etc).

Then again, we had three official LMP1 manufacturers racing at Le Mans just a while ago. Admittely The Aston Martin programme wasn't very well funded, and they suffered from "petrol sickness" and other issues, but between 2009-2011 they were the third part of the puzzle.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 19:51.


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#20 Red17

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 19:54

I am probably alone in this, but it's great news if it happens. There is really no reason to cut off US teams from Lemans or split up sportscar racing.

It does however raise the question about the LMP2 class. Will it stay onboard? If we take the testing as true then the DP's would perfectly slot in a LMP3 class. But NASCAR proably doesn't want a tier 3 class. Is NASCAR planning a boost to keep it on par with LMP2? That could make the DP package atractive, but it could kill LMP2 in the US.

My gut tells me NASCAR will instead boost DP's so that they slot into some sort of LMP1.7 class, faster LMP2 but keeping the LMP1 safely ahead.

Edit: I don't think there is any question about DP being it's own class.

Edited by Red17, 02 January 2013 - 19:55.


#21 ayali

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:02

Well, if they are too lazy to work with the pit extensions (which again in my mind should be the number #1 priority of the ACO right now,

That's not a realistic option as there's no space to do so.
At the pit entrance there's the race control center and at the exit the recently built new Welcome center.
Maybe they could squeeze in an extra 4 pit units (sans hospitality) if they move the parc fermee area but that's about it.

As for the DP cars, please keep them out of Le Mans

#22 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:10

It does however raise the question about the LMP2 class. Will it stay onboard?


Yes, the new cost capped Dunlop-Oreca-Nissan-spec-BoP-proam-privateer formula has proved itself well... unfortunately I might add, the class bores me almost as much as the DPs.

I would think that the future of LMP2 is safe.

2013
Strong in Le Mans
Strong in WEC
Average in ELMS (assuming that the series manages not to die again)
Weak in ALMS (news coming in that the class car counts are diminishing, again)
Weak in AsLMS

2014
Strong in Le Mans
Strong in WEC
A few cars running around in the new NA series, BoPped with the DPs
ELMS and AsLMS, who cares

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 20:14.


#23 HaydenFan

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:34

I am probably alone in this, but it's great news if it happens. There is really no reason to cut off US teams from Lemans or split up sportscar racing.

It does however raise the question about the LMP2 class. Will it stay onboard? If we take the testing as true then the DP's would perfectly slot in a LMP3 class. But NASCAR proably doesn't want a tier 3 class. Is NASCAR planning a boost to keep it on par with LMP2? That could make the DP package atractive, but it could kill LMP2 in the US.

My gut tells me NASCAR will instead boost DP's so that they slot into some sort of LMP1.7 class, faster LMP2 but keeping the LMP1 safely ahead.


I think Grand-Am (does this new series have a real new name yet, something to call it?) will kill off the LMP classes. Car counts in ALMS where not impressive, and I don't think the ACO/FIA will open up there races for the Daytona Prototype to add a few extra cars to there races. I think both series will be separate. Outside the GT cars, team's won't cross over to run the series.

Would I like to see the DP's in Le Mans? Sure, why not. Let's see the class winner's finish in the bottom of the top 10 of the overall running board. Maybe it'll even go to the point of attracting some GT teams away from the that class.

And all the talk about it just being a spec class is also funny to read. Are not most of the Sports Car field a spec field? The FIA/ACO have made the cars so close, that the Flat 6 of the Porsche is no quicker/slower or a better/worse option than the V8 of the F430. Or the V10 of the Viper. The P2 field, or the non-factory P1's are in a similar fashion as the DP class in that you have engine makers and chassis makers you buy from. Tires are no competition as everyone selects the Michelin in the WEC. And the same in ALMS, as the top teams are selecting the same tire maker. So what is wrong with Grand-Am and the spec Continental Tires.

#24 Risil

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:35

Bring back the elimination aspect of the Test Day but make some changes. Invite EVERYONE who requested an entry to that Test (except clearly talentless idiots like Atlas EFX and other clowns who cannot be allowed in) and make it a two day session. Because of the huge entry numbers you would get, split the entry list to half, and the first 50% of the cars would run on Saturday, the rest on Sunday. Then eliminate 5-10 slowest cars of each class - or whatever amount you wish, depending on the size of the grid. LMP1 should naturally have the largest amount of cars allowed in, then the faster of the GT classes. LMP2, slower GT class (and the possible DP mess) are secondary in importance in my opinion.

TELEVISE, or at least stream the event, and this could become a very exciting prelude to the 24 Hours.

Of course, this will never happen.


Sounds a little like the old days at Indianapolis (the one in Indiana, not the corner before Arnage). Pack a starter's gun for 6pm and get bumping. :up:

#25 BetaVersion

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 20:45

I have nothing against them racing there. If they want to, why not?

Unless the field is already overcrowded, then, it's another story because that have some implications to even safety as well as quality of the "show"

#26 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:33

And all the talk about it just being a spec class is also funny to read. Are not most of the Sports Car field a spec field? The FIA/ACO have made the cars so close, that the Flat 6 of the Porsche is no quicker/slower or a better/worse option than the V8 of the F430. Or the V10 of the Viper. The P2 field, or the non-factory P1's are in a similar fashion as the DP class in that you have engine makers and chassis makers you buy from. Tires are no competition as everyone selects the Michelin in the WEC. And the same in ALMS, as the top teams are selecting the same tire maker. So what is wrong with Grand-Am and the spec Continental Tires.


The ACO GTE class is -unfortunately- about 85% performance balanced category now (this started to happen circa 2009-2010 after the arrival of BMW and likes, and during/after the collapse of GT1) so it's not really a good comparing point. Neither is the post-2010 cost capped LMP2 class. However, LMP1 vs DP is.

2012 LMP1
Choose whatever tires you wish
Choose whatever engine you wish
Choose whatever chassis you wish
Diesel, petrol, isobutanol, hybrid
New technology methods praised
Development very much allowed
You may make some modifications and chassis experiments to the cars, within rules
No tweaking of any kind between factory cars (unless concerns diesel-petrol situation, see below)
Diesel-petrol balance of performance methods, issued rarely and relatively mild in nature - fuel flow restrictors, weight adjustments mainly
Privateer class balance of performance, issued rarely and very mild in nature - technically only tiny restrictor breaks are used maybe once a year (outside the ALMS that is)

2012 DP
Cut & paste external (restricted) bodywork + external chassis + engine combo fitted together from a very limited number of options
Limited number of makers and manufacturers, number controlled by Grand-Am/NASCAR
Tube frame cars
Only petrol, only Sunoco
Spec Continental tires
Underpowered, ancient, irrelevant technology
Artificial RPM limit, 500bhp
Development possible, but watched over and then restricted
You cannot really make modifications to the bodywork
Big power-weight balance of performance ratios in initial specs
Pre-season balance of performance tests - weight, restrictor etc
In-season balance of performance tweaks between regular intervals - weight, restrictor etc

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 21:41.


#27 Victor_RO

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:33

Well, if they are too lazy to work with the pit extensions (which again in my mind should be the number #1 priority of the ACO right now, not tasting wines with the Bahrainese royal family), or if they really really really cannot lose the WEC round status for some reason, Pre-Qualifying could be a very viable option. just Throw the god damn reserve lists away.

Bring back the elimination aspect of the Test Day but make some changes. Invite EVERYONE who requested an entry to that Test (except clearly talentless idiots like Atlas EFX and other clowns who cannot be allowed in) and make it a two day session. Because of the huge entry numbers you would get, split the entry list to half, and the first 50% of the cars would run on Saturday, the rest on Sunday. Then eliminate 5-10 slowest cars of each class - or whatever amount you wish, depending on the size of the grid. LMP1 should naturally have the largest amount of cars allowed in, then the faster of the GT classes. LMP2, slower GT class (and the possible DP mess) are secondary in importance in my opinion.

TELEVISE, or at least stream the event, and this could become a very exciting prelude to the 24 Hours.

Of course, this will never happen.


The problem with two days of testing, with half of the field doing one day, half doing the other and all times being counted, and which renders the idea pointless, is simple. Weather. You might get a sunny day for half the field, and then on the next day the whole thing gets washed out by some 2001-style rainstorms.

As for Le Mans being overcrowded in terms of traffic, the only issue is pitlane space and the fact that you can't really build more garages in the space available. Traffic density with 56 cars at Le Mans is 2-3 times lower than races like the Nurburgring 24h.

#28 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 21:49

The problem with two days of testing, with half of the field doing one day, half doing the other and all times being counted, and which renders the idea pointless, is simple. Weather. You might get a sunny day for half the field, and then on the next day the whole thing gets washed out by some 2001-style rainstorms.


Simple fix...

OPTION 1
Saturday Test Day: LMGTE
Sunday Test Day: LMP1, LMP2 (/DP)

OPTION 2
Assuming that the WEC entries would still get an automatic entry (which I continue to oppose), half or at least third of the field would already have an entry and there would be no need for prequalis for those cars. In that case maybe the WEC cars could have a separate sole running on Friday (purely practice, no pre-quali involved), making it a three day Test Weekend. Or if it gets too busy and complicated, no Test Day at all for those cars. I don't know, have an extra Free Practice 2 session during the actual Le Mans week.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 21:52.


#29 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 22:05

Can we really ever expect more factory supported teams at Le Mans other then Audi and Toyota? (We still must wait for Porsche long enough for them to sensibly cancel the project....)

You've still got Honda/Acura, Nissan in LMP2 and Aston Martin, Corvette, Ferrari and Porsche in GT... Also the works Dodge Vipers will be returning soon won't they? And these will still be faster than DP cars won't they?


And if not enough competition that we prefer to see will appear, then I think it is inevitable we will get tos see those contraptions.

henri


Don't they usually turn cars away? Aren't there LMP2 cars that are refused a starting place?

#30 SonnyViceR

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 22:12

You've still got Honda/Acura, Nissan in LMP2 and Aston Martin, Corvette, Ferrari and Porsche in GT... Also the works Dodge Vipers will be returning soon won't they? And these will still be faster than DP cars won't they?


GTEs are faster than DPs on most tracks, however if DPs were to come to Le Mans it should be expected that ACO would use performance balancing to make them jump past the GT classes (or, slow down GTE even further). In any case NASCAR should speed up the DPs next year in the new merger series.

Anyway, in all likelihood in GTE you will have the following full 100%factory outfits @ Le Mans

Porsche AG (Manthey)
Corvette Racing
Aston Martin Racing
SRT Viper

Plus AF Corse representing Ferrari as the works supported outfit, with Risi perhaps doing the same and making the comeback as well. Maybe McLaren and BMW Z4 with Rahal too, but not so likely.

Plus the usual array of privateers and semi-factory teams.



Don't they usually turn cars away? Aren't there LMP2 cars that are refused a starting place?


There's usually a healthy list of refused entries from all of the categories, mainly LMP2 and GTE. Most of them end up on the reserve lists

Edited by SonnyViceR, 02 January 2013 - 22:20.


#31 HaydenFan

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 22:25

You've still got Honda/Acura, Nissan in LMP2 and Aston Martin, Corvette, Ferrari and Porsche in GT... Also the works Dodge Vipers will be returning soon won't they? And these will still be faster than DP cars won't they?


I think he was referring to factory supported efforts that could actually win the race overall. That's what Le Mans was always about. Outside of WEC points, do most people care how Corvette does? Why do you think Porsche is preparing a P1 effort? You don't get any press winning in GT. You don't get the cover of magazines, or on the front page of websites. I wish we could see the Ferrari, Aston Martin, Chevrolet entries in P1. Okay, maybe not Aston, and the Daytona Prototype does to a point bring those companies to the top class. In the DP class, you've had the big manufacturers. I recall Toyota/Lexus in the field. BMW, Porsche, General Motors, Ford, names the P1 field would love to have.

But the DP and the prototype classes of the other series are comparing apples or oranges. One is meant to have be more of an on track, head to head competition, a mechanical form of racing, and the other is an off track, engineer driven effort, a more technological form of racing.

I don't think the Viper is going to be very competitive. Not as hopeless as the Jaguar of a few years back, but it was not remotely quick off the bat. And usually in today's motorsport, if you start slow, odds are high you won't gain much in the future.

#32 midgrid

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 22:37

I have nothing against them racing there. If they want to, why not?

Unless the field is already overcrowded, then, it's another story because that have some implications to even safety as well as quality of the "show"


I think this is the main problem. It would be interesting to see DPs taking part - reminiscent of the NASCAR entries in 1976 - but not, for me, at the expense of existing competitors, particularly as the quality of the LMP2 field has increased markedly in recent years.


#33 gm914

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 00:57

Slightly OT- here's one of the '76 NASCAR entries at Le Mans. Fantastic.

Posted Image

#34 fer312t

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:28

The WEC/Le Mans is all about current/future Road car technology, DP's are pre-historic. The FiA/ ACO should tell them were to go.



Actually the end of sportscar racing (from an enthusiast perspective rather than that of technophile) will precisely be the blind pursuit of road car 'relevance' - i.e. electronic systems that further dilute and sterilize the driving experience.

#35 HaydenFan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:45

Actually the end of sportscar racing (from an enthusiast perspective rather than that of technophile) will precisely be the blind pursuit of road car 'relevance' - i.e. electronic systems that further dilute and sterilize the driving experience.


It seems that Toyota and Audi have created a fuel mileage battle (which is the only real technology that motorsport in the last decade or two has brought to the streets outside safety features), and like you said, from a driving experience, it makes for bad on track action. I'm not jumping up and down if Audi/Toyota/whoever can gain another lap in fuel to get a win. And GT is well, basically a spec series.

But on topic, what do sports car fans want? I like the Audi, the Toyota, the speed, but the racing is terrible from a racing aspect. But is sports car racing supposed to be like current F1, which is Bernie's copy of touring car racing? Is sports car racing supposed to be more like Grand-Am, with it's "closeness"? Is it about the driver's or the cars? The debate has been a part of Le Mans history for, well, the history of the race.

Once those questions are answered can we really debate whether or not the Daytona Prototype is good for Le Mans, or sports car racing in general.

Me, I like the on track action. I like to see the heads up racing seen in IndyCar, or touring car racing. Where it's about the drivers, not the machines. So I vote yes, bring the DP's (really should change the name though; as Daytona Prototype just is Daytona's ego at full tilt. Like Daytona Sportbike was in AMA racing.).

Edited by HaydenFan, 03 January 2013 - 01:45.


#36 Risil

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:00

But on topic, what do sports car fans want? I like the Audi, the Toyota, the speed, but the racing is terrible from a racing aspect. But is sports car racing supposed to be like current F1, which is Bernie's copy of touring car racing? Is sports car racing supposed to be more like Grand-Am, with it's "closeness"? Is it about the driver's or the cars? The debate has been a part of Le Mans history for, well, the history of the race.


I'd certainly like to see a greater variety of race lengths in the WEC. I know sports car racing's default setting should be endurance formats, but some of the <2hr FIA GT or IMSA GTP sprint races were dynamite. The FIA seem intent on making one rule to fit every championship event, which is certainly very stereotypically French of them.

#37 HaydenFan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 02:45

I'd certainly like to see a greater variety of race lengths in the WEC. I know sports car racing's default setting should be endurance formats, but some of the <2hr FIA GT or IMSA GTP sprint races were dynamite. The FIA seem intent on making one rule to fit every championship event, which is certainly very stereotypically French of them.


I thought the ALMS races at Long Beach where always pretty good. 1 hr. 45 min. affairs that you could almost run with 1 driver (ala the IMSA sprints).

#38 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:32

I think he was referring to factory supported efforts that could actually win the race overall. That's what Le Mans was always about. Outside of WEC points, do most people care how Corvette does? Why do you think Porsche is preparing a P1 effort? You don't get any press winning in GT. You don't get the cover of magazines, or on the front page of websites. I wish we could see the Ferrari, Aston Martin, Chevrolet entries in P1. Okay, maybe not Aston, and the Daytona Prototype does to a point bring those companies to the top class. In the DP class, you've had the big manufacturers. I recall Toyota/Lexus in the field. BMW, Porsche, General Motors, Ford, names the P1 field would love to have.

But the DP and the prototype classes of the other series are comparing apples or oranges. One is meant to have be more of an on track, head to head competition, a mechanical form of racing, and the other is an off track, engineer driven effort, a more technological form of racing.

I don't think the Viper is going to be very competitive. Not as hopeless as the Jaguar of a few years back, but it was not remotely quick off the bat. And usually in today's motorsport, if you start slow, odds are high you won't gain much in the future.



I had indeed factory supporrted effort for LMP1 in mind. Efforts aimed on overall victories. A lot of factory support for LMP2 doesn't excite me that much yet to be honest.
I know that some of the battles for class victory at le Mans have been far more exciting and entertaining than the battle for overall honors. But unless you're a diehard fan of a car competing in either of the GT categories, the majority of fans probably better remember an overall winner of Le Mans then the different class winners. If I must name the GT winners of the past 10 year then I should write donw Corvette for just about every year because they won so often in the past decade. If my memory serves me well they lost out three times, one time to a Ferrari, (embarassingly enough in the 50th anniversary year of the Corvette was it in 2002?) against an Aston Martin and a Saleen. But don't ask me for the years that it happened without looking it up.

As for the Viper, don't give up hope yet. The first Vipers and the Ferrari 550 didn't set the world on fire initially too but they came good after all. Took a little longer then they wanted maybe but eventually....
But to me the Viper isn't a thing that should be raced. 6 liter and larger engines are really something no longer belonging in racing anymore. Since scaling down is the trent in every day cars, Le Mans should follow that trend for the GT categories too.

Henri



#39 SonnyViceR

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 08:50

If I must name the GT winners of the past 10 year then I should write donw Corvette for just about every year because they won so often in the past decade. If my memory serves me well they lost out three times, one time to a Ferrari, (embarassingly enough in the 50th anniversary year of the Corvette was it in 2002?) against an Aston Martin and a Saleen. But don't ask me for the years that it happened without looking it up.


Just check out my signature if you need a remainder about that :p

Anyway, the non-Corvette winners of all the LMs the factory team participated
2000 in LM GTS // Oreca Viper
2003 in LM GTS // Prodrive Ferrari
2007 in LM GT1 // Aston Martin Racing
2008 in LM GT1 // Aston Martin Racing
2010 in LM GT2 // Felbermayr Porsche
2012 in LM GTE-PRO // AF Corse Ferrari

Edited by SonnyViceR, 03 January 2013 - 08:55.


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#40 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:29

Just check out my signature if you need a remainder about that :p

Anyway, the non-Corvette winners of all the LMs the factory team participated
2000 in LM GTS // Oreca Viper
2003 in LM GTS // Prodrive Ferrari
2007 in LM GT1 // Aston Martin Racing
2008 in LM GT1 // Aston Martin Racing
2010 in LM GT2 // Felbermayr Porsche
2012 in LM GTE-PRO // AF Corse Ferrari



Thanks.

But I never ever cared for the Corvettes to begin with. My dislike of Detroit bigblocks technogy and the awful noise they make (I can't cope with their noise, gives me headaches beyond belief) was only the start of it.
But that is another discussion and let's not get into that over here in this thread.
For the record: The V12s of some of the other GTs mentioned are also at least 2 liters too large to my liking, but at least they sound a bit better.


Henri

#41 SonnyViceR

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:04

You do not enjoy the raw roar of Corvette? :cry: Oh well

I'm not sure why the engine displacement/capacity would be an issue? I guess you must be glad that the days of big fire breathing GT1s and other supercars are over then, the limit in LMGTE is 5,5 liters (with the obvious exception of Viper's 8 liter waiver) which IMO is pointless when the regulations in that class are so meaningless and full of idiocy nowadays

Plus, according to regulations bigger the engine -> smaller the air restrictor (even before BoP comes to play) so I'm not sure what's wrong with V10s and V12s and bigger displacements

Edited by SonnyViceR, 03 January 2013 - 13:07.


#42 Risil

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:05

I thought the ALMS races at Long Beach where always pretty good. 1 hr. 45 min. affairs that you could almost run with 1 driver (ala the IMSA sprints).


Oh yeah. Can't remember what year it was, but I remember watching a stunning race there between Adrian Fernandez in the big Aston Martin and Simon Pagenaud(?) in the Highcroft car, which was considerably quicker on the twisty parts. In comparison European prototype racing is sterile beyond belief.

#43 SonnyViceR

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:10

Oh yeah. Can't remember what year it was, but I remember watching a stunning race there between Adrian Fernandez in the big Aston Martin and Simon Pagenaud(?) in the Highcroft car, which was considerably quicker on the twisty parts. In comparison European prototype racing is sterile beyond belief.


It was 2010... sure was amazing race.

Even though technically they were racing in the same class that year, the AMR Lola was LMP1 machinery (explaining the speed on straights) and the HPD was P2

Can't see that the new merger series abandoning that race in 2014, it's the blue riband of NA street events.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 03 January 2013 - 13:11.


#44 SonnyViceR

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:15

Wise people here. Nobody has been lunatic enough to vote for the second option on the poll (balanced with P1s)

#45 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:28

Wise people here. Nobody has been lunatic enough to vote for the second option on the poll (balanced with P1s)




With the greenhouse of a DP almost twice as wide as that of an LPM1 I wonder how much extra power a DP needs to overcome the extra frontal area handicap.....
And if given so much ectra power: can the chassis take that?


Henri

#46 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 13:48

You do not enjoy the raw roar of Corvette? :cry: Oh well

I'm not sure why the engine displacement/capacity would be an issue? I guess you must be glad that the days of big fire breathing GT1s and other supercars are over then, the limit in LMGTE is 5,5 liters (with the obvious exception of Viper's 8 liter waiver) which IMO is pointless when the regulations in that class are so meaningless and full of idiocy nowadays

Plus, according to regulations bigger the engine -> smaller the air restrictor (even before BoP comes to play) so I'm not sure what's wrong with V10s and V12s and bigger displacements




Like I said Detroit iron gives me headaches due to the loudness. I still have nightmares of Le Mans 97 when regrettably one of the Panoz cars didn't retire early enough to save my hearing and a aching head. That Panoz was downrigh scary and from what I have understood, one of the Panoz drivers of that time has a bad hearing nowadays which has been traced back to his days with the Panoz....

My objection against big engines is because of the loudness of the engines and the kind of noise they make.
The sound of racing engines can be compared with music, There are some kinds of music you like and hate while sobeody else is exactly the opposite. I have that with the sound of post war big blocks. But I really liked the 2.65 liter terbocharged CART engines or the 1.5 liter Turbo V6 F1 engines of the past.
As for big blocks, I heard some 1911 cars theri engines at Indy in a demo. That was fun to listen to. Those slow revving locomitive side blocks surely have something appealing to me.
Besides that, the current time in which there is more concern about the enviroment etc. heavyweight, yet heavily restricted big blocks don't contribute anything to engineering progress anymore like what Le Mans intends to achieve with the LMP1 rules.

henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 03 January 2013 - 13:53.


#47 SonnyViceR

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:32

With the greenhouse of a DP almost twice as wide as that of an LPM1 I wonder how much extra power a DP needs to overcome the extra frontal area handicap.....
And if given so much ectra power: can the chassis take that?


Henri


You could probably performance balance DPs and petrol (non works) LMP1s by giving improved aero and more power to the DPs - which is actually something that the new North American merger series is planning to do in order to find a workaround with LMP2s according to some rumours. On top of that more weight and tiny air & fuel flow restrictors * to the LMP1s, as well as reduction to the tank size would probably do the trick. But the factory P1s would still have the edge.

* albeit restrictors will replaced by fuel formula next year


In other words, it would be horrific and one of the biggest jokes ever seen. But it is - thankfully - extremely unlikely.

--- ---
But let's just stress again that the only mention of this DP/LM love affair has been on (admittely trusthworthy sources of) twitter, we'll have to wait for the official news. Hopefully they could reveal something tomorrow.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 03 January 2013 - 16:37.


#48 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:39

You could probably performance balance DPs and petrol (non works) LMP1s by giving improved aero and more power to the DPs - which is actually something that the new North American merger series is planning to do in order to find a workaround with LMP2s according to some rumours. On top of that more weight and tiny air & fuel flow restrictors * to the LMP1s, as well as reduction to the tank size would probably do the trick. But the factory P1s would still have the edge.

* albeit restrictors will replaced by fuel formula next year


In other words, it would be horrific and one of the biggest jokes ever seen. But it is - thankfully - extremely unlikely.

--- ---
But let's just stress again that the only mention of this DP/LM love affair has been on (admittely trusthworthy sources of) twitter, we'll have to wait for the official news. Hopefully they could reveal something tomorrow.



You're right Sonny,

If they really, really want it, sure that something can be done to give them equal chances. even if that means that the faster cars have to loose more time in the pits due to very small fuel tanks.

And I must confess, as much as I hate the looks and just about everything else related with them, given the large starting fields, something is done right with these DP prototypes. Though I think they should be called Daytona Sportscars because I can't see anything on them that is innovative and for which you need a prototype in the true sense of the word for it so that the cars earn that honorable name of Protoype.
But they have fairly large starting feelds, better then in other sporscar categories so we must concede that something is right with the formula after all. Maybe because the France family (NASCAR) is behind it? Hell, no way that in Europe you could create a racing formula for commercial vehicles like trucks. Yet in the USA it appears as if NASCAR truck racing is doing even better then Indycars in attracting fans to the races!

I also must admit, talk about a choise of the lest of the worse options: I rather have some DPs at Le Mans that a number of those Deltawings....
But for me that dillema is like chosing for being shot through the head or through the heart....



Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 03 January 2013 - 18:40.


#49 gm914

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:46

Hell, no way that in Europe you could create a racing formula for commercial vehicles like trucks.
Henri

Posted Image

I would watch this.

#50 Risil

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:55

And in Europe the racing trucks are actually bigger and heavier than the touring cars!

(By the way, I'm quite excited about this starting on Saturday:
Posted Image :) )

Edited by Risil, 03 January 2013 - 18:57.