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Best GP driver of each year?


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 14:37

Who was the best GP driver in each year. I'm especially interested in your opinion in the years before 1950.

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#2 D-Type

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:25

By definition, post 1950 it must be the World Champion for that year and prewar the European Champion.

#3 nicanary

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 15:47

And post-Bernie, whoever bought him the best Christmas present...

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:16

By definition, post 1950 it must be the World Champion for that year and prewar the European Champion.

Not necessarily. For example, Minoia won the 1931 European Championship without winning a race and I'm not sure you could say Rosberg was the best driver of 1982 - to name but two glaring examples. These things are all subjective of course - and I'm sure some people may find fault with my opinions. But that's what they are - opinions. You could, for example, put in a strong argument for von Brauchitsch in 1937: when he finished, he was always in the first three. But he only won one race, whereas Caracciola won four. My selection of Seaman for 1938 might seem contentious, but it's my firm opinion he was the best and fastest driver on the grid that year, with Lang just behind. Caracciola was 1938 European Champion, but only thanks to luck, rain and the silly scoring system which eliminated Seaman's chances: overall he was out-driven by Seaman and/or Lang almost everywhere.

Pre-Great War there aren't enough races to consider. Even the early 1920s are pretty sparse and although Hans suggests Goux for 1921, Nazzaro for 1922 and Salamano for 1923, I'd go for 1924 as the first really valid year.

1924 Campari
1925 Ascari
1926 Goux
1927 Benoist - but only because of the Delage! Otherwise Materassi.
1928 Chiron
1929 "Williams"
1930 Varzi
1931 Varzi
1932 Nuvolari
1933 Nuvolari
1934 Stuck
1935 Caracciola
1936 Rosemeyer
1937 Caracciola
1938 Seaman
1939 Lang
1946 Sommer
1947 Wimille
1948 Wimille
1949 Ascari

#5 john winfield

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:19

By definition, post 1950 it must be the World Champion for that year and prewar the European Champion.


I'm sure Duncan's just teasing you HF. He must be. :) I'll go for 1974 and Niki Lauda. Yes, he made mistakes, but he was extremely quick and, given a bit more luck and better Ferrari reliability, he would have converted all those poles and race leads into many more points than Emerson, Clay or Jody.


#6 nordschleife

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:19

By definition, post 1950 it must be the World Champion for that year and prewar the European Champion.


Au contraire. It is clear from the statements of drivers themselves that the driver's contribution to the result is around 10%, the rest being the car's capability, usability and reliability plus the team's ability. So really the championship is a goal and the series becomes the stage where the performances can be judged in the context of who did what with what. The more informed one is about the context of each driver's performance the more authoritative your opinion. The judges with skin in the game, the owners intent on hiring the best available or promising talent that may ripen in their employ, make their choices and we observers should take note. Regarding the titular champion of a given year as "the best that year" is lazy reliance on statistics.

#7 D-Type

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 16:50

When considering the twenties and early thirties, should we perhaps include major races other than Grands Prix such as some Targa Florios and major sports car races - the Mille Miglia, Le Mans and some Spa 24 hrs.

In defence of my earlier post, surely the aim of having a World Championship or any championship is to establish who was 'top dog' that year. The points systems used have produced anomalous results on occasions but that is a fault of the system not of the concept.

Should we perhaps simply count wins? And maybe weight the result by the importance of the race? Or by whether the top teams were all there (Basically DSJ's "Who did he beat?)? Or its length - the US "One point per mile of race"?

#8 HistoryFan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 18:19

Not necessarily. For example, Minoia won the 1931 European Championship without winning a race and I'm not sure you could say Rosberg was the best driver of 1982 - to name but two glaring examples. These things are all subjective of course - and I'm sure some people may find fault with my opinions. But that's what they are - opinions. You could, for example, put in a strong argument for von Brauchitsch in 1937: when he finished, he was always in the first three. But he only won one race, whereas Caracciola won four. My selection of Seaman for 1938 might seem contentious, but it's my firm opinion he was the best and fastest driver on the grid that year, with Lang just behind. Caracciola was 1938 European Champion, but only thanks to luck, rain and the silly scoring system which eliminated Seaman's chances: overall he was out-driven by Seaman and/or Lang almost everywhere.

Pre-Great War there aren't enough races to consider. Even the early 1920s are pretty sparse and although Hans suggests Goux for 1921, Nazzaro for 1922 and Salamano for 1923, I'd go for 1924 as the first really valid year.

1924 Campari
1925 Ascari
1926 Goux
1927 Benoist - but only because of the Delage! Otherwise Materassi.
1928 Chiron
1929 "Williams"
1930 Varzi
1931 Varzi
1932 Nuvolari
1933 Nuvolari
1934 Stuck
1935 Caracciola
1936 Rosemeyer
1937 Caracciola
1938 Seaman
1939 Lang
1946 Sommer
1947 Wimille
1948 Wimille
1949 Ascari


A very nice list. But I think we can also do the best drivers before 1924. Georges Boillot for example was the best driver in his era - so the best in 1914?


#9 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 19:21

You could, for example, put in a strong argument for von Brauchitsch in 1937: when he finished, he was always in the first three. But he only won one race, whereas Caracciola won four.

Excellent list, Richard. You could also, I think, put in a strong argument for Rosemeyer in 1937. Like Caracciola he won four races, and was to a great extent waging a single-handed battle against the Mercedes team in an inferior car.

Edited by Tim Murray, 03 January 2013 - 19:22.


#10 Charlieman

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 20:53

It is clear from the statements of drivers themselves that the driver's contribution to the result is around 10%, the rest being the car's capability, usability and reliability plus the team's ability.


Proven of course in the 1981 Championship, won by Piquet whilst his team mate, Rebaque, was never quite in the same race...


#11 HistoryFan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:19

So I try it since 1950:

1950: Juan-Manuel Fangio
1951: Juan-Manuel Fangio
1952: Alberto Ascari
1953: Alberto Ascari
1954: Juan-Manuel Fangio
1955: Juan-Manuel Fangio
1956: Juan-Manuel Fangio
1957: Juan-Manuel Fangio
1958: Stirling Moss
1959: Jack Brabham
1960: Jack Brabham
1961: Wolfgang Graf Berghe von Trips
1962: Graham Hill
1963: Jim Clark
1964: Graham Hill
1965: Jim Clark
1966: Jack Brabham
1967: Denny Hulme
1968: Graham Hill
1969: Jackie Stewart
1970: Jochen Rindt
1971: Jackie Stewart
1972: Emerson Fittipaldi
1973: Jackie Stewart
1974: Emerson Fittipaldi
1975: Niki Lauda
1976: Niki Lauda
1977: Niki Lauda
1978: Mario Andretti
1979: Jody Scheckter
1980: Alan Jones
1981: Carlos Reutemann
1982: Didier Pironi
1983: Nelson Piquet
1984: Alain Prost
1985: Alain Prost
1986: Nigel Mansell
1987: Nigel Mansell
1988: Ayrton Senna
1989: Ayrton Senna
1990: Ayrton Senna
1991: Ayrton Senna
1992: Nigel Mansell
1993: Ayrton Senna
1994: Michael Schumacher
1995: Michael Schumacher
1996: Damon Hill
1997: Jacques Villeneuve
1998: Mika Häkkinen
1999: Heinz-Harald Frentzen
2000: Michael Schumacher
2001: Michael Schumacher
2002: Michael Schumacher
2003: Juan-Pablo Montoya
2004: Michael Schumacher
2005: Kimi Räikkönen
2006: Fernando Alonso
2007: Kimi Räikkönen
2008: Lewis Hamilton
2009: Jenson Button
2010: Fernando Alonso
2011: Sebastian Vettel
2012: Fernando Alonso

#12 HistoryFan

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:42

before 1950:

1906: Ferenc Szisz
1907: Felice Nazzaro
1908: Christian Lautenschlager
1909: Harry Grant
1910: David Bruce-Brown
1911: Victor Hemery
1912: Georges Boillot
1913: Georges Boillot
1914: Georges Boillot
1915: Dario Resta
1916: Dario Resta
1919: André Boillot
1920: Giuseppe Campari
1921: Jules Goux
1922: Felice Nazzaro
1923: Henry Segrave
1924: Giuseppe Campari
1925: Antonio Ascari
1926: Jules Goux
1927: Robert Benoist
1928: Louis Chiron
1929: William Grover-Williams
1930: Achille Varzi
1931: Louis Chiron
1932: Tazio Nuvolari
1933: Tazio Nuvolari
1934: Hans Stuck
1935: Rudolf Caracciola
1936: Bernd Rosemeyer
1937: Rudold Caracciola
1938: Manfred von Brauchitsch
1939: Hermann Lang
1946: Raymond Sommer
1947: Jean-Pierre Wimille
1948: Jean-Pierre Wimille
1949: Alberto Ascari

#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 21:57

A very nice list. But I think we can also do the best drivers before 1924. Georges Boillot for example was the best driver in his era - so the best in 1914?

Well, there was only one Grand Prix. Boillot had won it in 1912 and 1913. However the car to have in 1914 was a Mercedes - for which reason I would actually give it jointly to Lautenschlager for the Grand Prix and DePalma for his Vanderbilt and Elgin wins.

Excellent list, Richard. You could also, I think, put in a strong argument for Rosemeyer in 1937. Like Caracciola he won four races, and was to a great extent waging a single-handed battle against the Mercedes team in an inferior car.

Oh, indeed Tim. Had Bernd not been killed in January 1938 I believe that the 1938 season would have been one of the greatest ever, with Seaman and Lang leading the Mercedes attack against him: given his health concerns I'm not sure Rudi would have still had it in him to beat Rosemeyer. Thanks to help from the team and the minimal opposition he had a far easier task to win the EC. That's why I rated Seaman and Lang ahead of him. But with Rosemeyer Auto Union could very well have had the D-type properly sorted by the German GP at the latest (maybe even by the French?) and it could have been at least as good as the original W154.

#14 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 22:03

Should we perhaps simply count wins? And maybe weight the result by the importance of the race? Or by whether the top teams were all there (Basically DSJ's "Who did he beat?)? Or its length - the US "One point per mile of race"?


The combination of all that is basically what I tried to achieve with my GPChart computer prgramme, many years ago, but not only wins, and not only GPs. I haven't worked on that lately, and never put in enough data to my liking (I'm a perfectionist  ;)), but I still have some "old" results of that around, and I always quite liked them. Based on that, my selections would read like something like this, although there are quite a few close calls! :well:

1894 Albert de Dion
1895 Émile Levassor
1896 Émile Mayade
1897 Gilles Hourgières
1898 Fernand Charron
1899 Léonce Girardot
1900 René de Knyff
1901 Henri Fournier
1902 Henri Farman
1903 Fernand Gabriel
1904 Léon Théry
1905 Léon Théry
1906 Ferencz Szisz
1907 Felice Nazzaro
1908 Victor Héméry
1909 George Robertson
1910 Joe Dawson
1911 Ralph Mulford
1912 Georges Boillot
1913 Georges Boillot
1914 Christian Lautenschlager
1915 Earl Cooper
1916 Dario Resta
1917 Earl Cooper
1918 Ralph de Palma
1919 Eddie Hearne
1920 Tommy Milton
1921 Jimmy Murphy
1922 Jimmy Murphy
1923 Jimmy Murphy
1924 Antonio Ascari
1925 Giuseppe Campari
1926 Meo Costantini
1927 Robert Benoist
1928 Louis Chiron
1929 Achille Varzi
1930 Achille Varzi
1931 Louis Chiron
1932 Tazio Nuvolari
1933 Luigi Fagioli
1934 Hans Stuck
1935 Rudi Caracciola
1936 Bernd Rosemeyer
1937 Rudi Caracciola
1938 Rudi Caracciola
1939 Hermann Lang
1940 Rex Mays
1941 Rex Mays
1942 -
1943 -
1944 -
1945 Jean-Pierre Wimille
1946 Raymond Sommer
1947 Luigi Villoresi
1948 Luigi Villoresi
1949 Alberto Ascari
1950 Juan Fangio
1951 Alberto Ascari
1952 Alberto Ascari
1953 Alberto Ascari
1954 Juan Fangio
1955 Juan Fangio
1956 Stirling Moss
1957 Juan Fangio
1958 Stirling Moss
1959 Stirling Moss
1960 Jack Brabham
1961 Stirling Moss
1962 Graham Hill
1963 Jim Clark
1964 Jim Clark
1965 Jim Clark
1966 Jack Brabham
1967 Jim Clark
1968 Jackie Stewart
1969 Jackie Stewart
1970 Jochen Rindt
1971 Jackie Stewart
1972 Emerson Fittipaldi
1973 Jackie Stewart
1974 Emerson Fittipaldi
1975 Niki Lauda
1976 James Hunt
1977 Niki Lauda
1978 Mario Andretti
1979 Gilles Villeneuve
1980 Alan Jones
1981 Carlos Reutemann
1982 Keke Rosberg
1983 Alain Prost
1984 Alain Prost
1985 Alain Prost
1986 Nigel Mansell
1987 Nelson Piquet
1988 Alain Prost
1989 Alain Prost
1990 Ayrton Senna
1991 Ayrton Senna
1992 Nigel Mansell
1993 Alain Prost

#15 Bloggsworth

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 22:58

1982 should have been John Watson's year - Rosberg only won one race, several drivers won 2.

#16 ryan86

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 23:22

Impossible question to answer. Sometimes it's clear, but I've read opinions I respsect that have claimed Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen or Hamilton was Driver of 2012, all points of view which carry merit.

#17 ChrisJson

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 00:20

So I try it since 1950:


1973: Jackie Stewart



I would say Ronnie Peterson!


Christer

#18 Andretti Fan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:07

I would say Ronnie Peterson!


Christer



I'd be tempted to give 1974 to Ronnie as well. He won three races in the old Lotus 72 that he probably shouldn't have won.

#19 Gabrci

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 06:40

I would guess Schumacher for 1994-2004 is pretty obvious, as is Alonso for 2012.

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#20 Doug Nye

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:45

During which periods the German was using probably the best of the front running cars, in contrast to the Spaniard using probably the worst...? ):

So how does one truly define 'best driver'?

DCN

#21 Perruqueporte

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:05

During which periods the German was using probably the best of the front running cars, in contrast to the Spaniard using probably the worst...? ):

So how does one truly define 'best driver'?

DCN

Surely it depends on whether one has made a conscious decision to be objective or subjective!

In my view, if in order to be objective you agreed to list and score criteria such as "sporting behaviour" then one or two champions might not fare so well.

Subjectivity is much more fun.

Christopher Wigdor

#22 David Beard

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:03

1982 should have been John Watson's year - Rosberg only won one race, several drivers won 2.


I disagree. In my opinion the best man won the championship....even including Villeneuve.

#23 HistoryFan

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:29

1925 Ascari


Why Ascari?


#24 Tim Murray

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:51

Why not? He won the Belgian GP and was leading in France when he crashed. I'd be inclined to give him the nod for 1924 as well, after his win in the Italian GP and very near miss in the Targa Florio.

#25 kayemod

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 13:04

I disagree. In my opinion the best man won the championship....even including Villeneuve.


So do I, Keke performed wonders with his Williams, he thoroughly deserved his success, the best driver that year in an outclassed car. In any event, as a complete package I'd also rate him above Villeneuve, so there!


#26 Vitesse2

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 13:04

Why Ascari?

Won the European GP at Spa, beating his team-mate Campari by 20 minutes in equal machinery. Was leading the French GP by some margin at the time of his fatal crash and - but for that - would surely have won the Italian GP as well: Brilli-Peri was good, but I doubt he'd have beaten Ascari in a P2.

Those were the only three races which really counted that year. You could also argue that he was marginally ahead of Campari in 1924, but the sparsity of top-class races in either year is a limiting factor. In each year, it has to be an Alfa Romeo driver, because the P2 was by far the best car.

#27 ChrisJson

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 13:14

The combination of all that is basically what I tried to achieve with my GPChart computer prgramme, many years ago, but not only wins, and not only GPs. I haven't worked on that lately, and never put in enough data to my liking (I'm a perfectionist  ;)), but I still have some "old" results of that around, and I always quite liked them. Based on that, my selections would read like something like this, although there are quite a few close calls! :well:


1973 Jackie Stewart



Michael, how did you rate qualifying in your calculations?

Jackie and Ronnie both won four races but Ronnie was
faster than Jackie in 12 out of 15 races!


Christer


#28 kayemod

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 13:23

Jackie and Ronnie both won four races but Ronnie was
faster than Jackie in 12 out of 15 races!


Christer


We're back to the 'complete package' thing again. For all Ronnie's undoubted speed I'd rate Jackie about a mile above him overall, for the same reason I've always rated Prost as better than Senna, though Ayrton usually had the edge in qualifying, same as with Ronnie and Jackie.

#29 scheivlak

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 16:41

but Ronnie was
faster than Jackie in 12 out of 15 races!

He wasn't.
Races are different from qualifying.

#30 Barry Boor

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 16:50

Easy:

1960 Dan Gurney
1961 Dan Gurney
1962 Dan Gurney
1963 Dan Gurney
1964 Dan Gurney
1965 Dan Gurney
1967 Dan Gurney

 ;)

#31 RogerFrench

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 16:53

Perhaps the "best" driver is the one that all the other drivers are watching, and I'd like to suggest they come is eras, rather than years. So post-WW2, once things settle down you have Ascari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Alonso. I suspect Vettel will add to that list in time.

Then there are bright stars whose magic never quite translates into permanent greatness, and I'd offer Collins, Rindt, Peterson, Villeneuve and Hamilton in that category, though I'm sure I've missed a few - Ickx, maybe.

#32 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:09

Michael, how did you rate qualifying in your calculations?


Not at all, unless the race itself is cancelled - then, the qualifying results stand as race results, race distance one lap (or four, as in the case of Indy, etc.). Non-starters are also ranked by qualifying performance, behind those who start (or, more precisely, complete at least one full lap). So, in effect, qualifying results are of very little to no value at all, as in real life. :)

#33 Michael Ferner

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:12

Perhaps the "best" driver is the one that all the other drivers are watching, and I'd like to suggest they come is eras, rather than years. So post-WW2, once things settle down you have Ascari, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Prost, Senna, Schumacher and Alonso. I suspect Vettel will add to that list in time.


Very good, except that I'd personally exchange Lauda for Fittipaldi. That's the way I see it, anyway.

#34 ryan86

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:55

Sometimes though, even the top drivers have races and occasionally series of races or whole seasons that are right stinkers. 1999 and 2008 would be examples of this IMO where Hakkinen, Massa and Hamilton might have taken the titles to the final round, but had particularly error strewn seasons and Irvine, who was a decent driver, but just not quick enough really and that are a 3rd driver usually from a smaller team impresses most during the year in the case of Frentzen and Kubica, so I agree with the argument so to speak that Hakkinen/Schumacher were the top drivers during 1999, but if the question was whose performances impressed me most during that year it would be Frentzen and Ralf.

#35 ChrisJson

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 17:58

He wasn't.


I meant to say that he out-qualified Jackie 12 times out of 15.

Perhaps someone who has the 1973 Autocourse can see how
their fastest laps compared.


Christer

Edited by ChrisJson, 04 January 2013 - 18:02.


#36 Gabrci

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 20:04

During which periods the German was using probably the best of the front running cars, in contrast to the Spaniard using probably the worst...? ):

So how does one truly define 'best driver'?

DCN


I think he only had the best car in 2001, 2002 and 2004, and clearly not the best until 2000.

Good question - I think it would be something like the added value to the overall performance of the car/driver combination, including everything like motivating the team and of course the driving itself.

#37 jj2728

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 20:12

1968 Chris Amon

#38 kayemod

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 23:05

Incidentally, you have spelled his Christian name incorrectly.


Not necessarily, it all depends which period you're referring to. Monsieur Ickx has at various times called himself both "Jacky" and "Jackie", both names have been painted on his helmets.


#39 scheivlak

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 23:51

At Leif Snellman's great site we can find Hans Etzrodt's choices for 1895-1949:

http://www.kolumbus....ellman/gpw1.htm
http://www.kolumbus....ellman/gpw2.htm
http://www.kolumbus....ellman/gpw3.htm

This was his list (last updates 2011) :

1895 Emile Levassor
1896 Emile Mayade
1897 Gilles Hourgières
1898 Fernand Charron
1899 René de Knyff
1900 Fernand Charron / Levegh
1901 Henry Fournier
1902 Selwyn Edge
1903 Pierre de Crawhez
1904 George Heath
1905 Victor Hémery
1906 Ferenc Szisz
1907 Felice Nazzaro
1908 Christian Lautenschlager
1909 -
1910 -
1911 -
1912 Georges Boillot
1913 Georges Boillot
1914 Christian Lautenschlager
1915 -
1916 -
1919 -
1920 -
1921 Jules Goux
1922 Felice Nazzaro
1923 Carlo Salamano
1924 Giuseppe Campari
1925 Albert Divo
1926 Jules Goux
1927 Robert Benoist
1928 Louis Chiron
1929 "Williams"
1930 Louis Chiron
1931 Ferdinando Minoia
1932 Tazio Nuvolari
1933 Achille Varzi
1934 Hans Stuck
1935 Rudolf Caracciola
1936 Bernd Rosemeyer
1937 Rudolf Caracciola
1938 Rudolf Caracciola
1939 H.P. Müller / H. Lang
1940 -
1941 -
1942 -
1945 -
1946 Raymond Sommer
1947 Jean-Pierre Wimille
1948 Jean-Pierre Wimille
1949 Alberto Ascari

For the 1930s he mainly followed the outcome of the ECh.

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#40 midgrid

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 00:11

Autocourse's number one driver:

1966 – Jim Clark
1967 – Jim Clark
1968 – Jackie Stewart
1969 – Jackie Stewart
1970 – Jackie Stewart
1971 – Jackie Stewart
1972 – Jackie Stewart
1973 – Jackie Stewart
1974 – Emerson Fittipaldi
1975 – Niki Lauda
1976 – Niki Lauda
1977 – Niki Lauda
1978 – Niki Lauda
1979 – Alan Jones
1980 – Alan Jones
1981 – Alan Jones
1982 – blank
1983 – Nelson Piquet
1984 – Alain Prost
1985 – Alain Prost
1986 – Alain Prost
1987 – Alain Prost
1988 – Ayrton Senna
1989 – Nigel Mansell
1990 – Alain Prost
1991 – Ayrton Senna
1992 – Nigel Mansell
1993 – Ayrton Senna
1994 – Damon Hill
1995 – Michael Schumacher
1996 – Michael Schumacher
1997 – Jacques Villeneuve
1998 – Michael Schumacher
1999 – Heinz-Harald Frentzen
2000 – Michael Schumacher
2001 – Michael Schumacher
2002 – Michael Schumacher
2003 – Michael Schumacher
2004 – Michael Schumacher
2005 – Fernando Alonso
2006 – Fernando Alonso
2007 – Lewis Hamilton
2008 – Lewis Hamilton
2009 – Jenson Button
2010 – Sebastian Vettel
2011 – Sebastian Vettel
2012 – Fernando Alonso (thanks to nordschleife for the update!)

Edited by midgrid, 06 January 2013 - 00:35.


#41 HistoryFan

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:00

1927 Benoist - but only because of the Delage! Otherwise Materassi.


What makes the Delage so good?


#42 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:35

170 bhp. This was significantly more than any of its major opposition with the exception of the Fiat 806 (which raced only once in a minor event).

#43 cpbell

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 11:37

170 bhp. This was significantly more than any of its major opposition with the exception of the Fiat 806 (which raced only once in a minor event).


Wasn't it also quite nimble thanks to its low CoG?

#44 Tim Murray

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 12:52

My understanding is that although the Delage had a low C of G its handling was not that good. The engine was very powerful but was also heavy and very long, and was installed in the chassis in such a way that it contributed nothing to chassis stiffness. This led to the chassis being extremely flexible compared to most of its opposition. This flexibility caused one of the car’s most obvious problems – flapping of the front wheels during braking.

#45 Roger Clark

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 13:32

The Talbot also head a low frontal area, achieved in the same manner as the Delage: running the props haft through the space previously occupied by the riding mechanic. I don't know how much power the Talbot had but it looks as though it could have been competitive with the Delage if it had been reliable and if the factory had had enough money to continue racing.

The Delage was unquestionably one of the technical highlights of Grand Prix history and was still competitive a decade later but we must admit that the opposition was not strong. If Delage, Fiat, Talbot and Bugatti had all raced a full season it could have been one of the greatest ever.

#46 David McKinney

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 15:49

Cimarosti's GP History gives 140bhp for the Talbot (as well as 170 for the Delage). The comparative Fiat 806 figure is 187

#47 Vitesse2

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 16:15

Cimarosti's GP History gives 140bhp for the Talbot (as well as 170 for the Delage). The comparative Fiat 806 figure is 187

Nickols and Karslake say 145 for the Talbot in "Motoring Entente" and DCN has the Delage at 177 in "Motor Racing Mavericks", which concurs with 187 for the Fiat and quotes the Fiat as about 15mph faster than the Delage - although the Fiat figure is at peak revs of 8500 and it seems likely they'd have had to limit it to 8000 for a full length GP. No speed for the Talbot, but it and the Delage were two hundredweight heavier than the Fiat.

#48 Roger Clark

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 17:00

Pomeroy, in The GR and Prix Car Vol2, reproduces an actual power curve for the Talbot which shows 144 bhp on alcohol fuel. He says that there was little to choose between it and the Delage in circuit performance. We should, however remember that the two cars only competed against each other on two occasions and the Talbots didn't last long in both cases. Results don't lie ... often.

#49 Glengavel

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 21:46

I meant to say that he out-qualified Jackie 12 times out of 15.

Perhaps someone who has the 1973 Autocourse can see how
their fastest laps compared.


Christer


Don't know about individual records, but Ronnie had 9 poles to Jackie's 3, Peterson had 2 fastest laps to Jackie's 1, Jackie had 5 wins to Ronnie's 4. Emerson Fittipaldi had most FLs, with 5, 1 pole and 3 wins. All of which goes to prove the square root of b*gg*r all.


#50 Glengavel

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 21:46

I meant to say that he out-qualified Jackie 12 times out of 15.

Perhaps someone who has the 1973 Autocourse can see how
their fastest laps compared.


Christer


Don't know about individual records, but Ronnie had 9 poles to Jackie's 3, Peterson had 2 fastest laps to Jackie's 1, Jackie had 5 wins to Ronnie's 4. Emerson Fittipaldi had most FLs, with 5, 1 pole and 3 wins. All of which goes to prove the square root of b*gg*r all.