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What are Lewis's chances of winning 2013 WDC? [split]


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#201 1Devil1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:02

Disagree. Ferrari did not make mistakes, Massa did. His driving was too erratic at times - Lewis made some mistakes but they were more as a result of red mist than actually poor driving. Yes, Massa suffered some mechanical DNFs but in the grand scheme of things, poor driving at the start of the season and during the European legs dogged him. Further, harsh treatment towards HAM (Spa, Fuji) has to be taken into account as well.


Disagree. Yeah he made the mistake at his pit stop in singapore or blow up his engine Hungary. Believe it or not Hamilton was on par with Massa this year. He dropped the ball many times as Massa did. The main difference is this was a rather poor year of Hamilton. For Massa it was his best of his career. Can't believe it that Hamilton fans still try to sell this championship campaign as great effort.

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#202 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:05

Disagree. Ferrari did not make mistakes, Massa did. His driving was too erratic at times - Lewis made some mistakes but they were more as a result of red mist than actually poor driving. Yes, Massa suffered some mechanical DNFs but in the grand scheme of things, poor driving at the start of the season and during the European legs dogged him. Further, harsh treatment towards HAM (Spa, Fuji) has to be taken into account as well.


They both made mistakes but that's not the point, Massa did enough to win the title when you take away factors outside the driver's control. The reality was that the Ferrari was the faster car - that Hamilton was able to win the title in a slower car, despite making a host of costly errors himself, only proves Ferrari dropped the ball. Massa lost 20 points at Hungary and Singapore, Hamilton gained two points from those. On the other hand, there was an 8 point swing in his favour due to the debacle at Spa. Still, remove factors outside of the driver's control and Massa is the winner, whatever way you skin it. Doesn't mean he drove better than Hamilton mind, but that's not what's being discussed.

#203 undersquare

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:11

They both made mistakes but that's not the point, Massa did enough to win the title when you take away factors outside the driver's control. The reality was that the Ferrari was the faster car - that Hamilton was able to win the title in a slower car, despite making a host of costly errors himself, only proves Ferrari dropped the ball. Massa lost 20 points at Hungary and Singapore, Hamilton gained two points from those. On the other hand, there was an 8 point swing in his favour due to the debacle at Spa. Still, remove factors outside of the driver's control and Massa is the winner, whatever way you skin it. Doesn't mean he drove better than Hamilton mind, but that's not what's being discussed.

Still, Massa 2008 was a fairly normal level of bad luck really, added to some bad driving like in Malaysia and Fuji. Many championships have similar levels of it, for example 2010 which FA so nearly won with SV's car failures. Lewis' level in 2012 was quite unusual. 180-ish points is insane.

So I think it is valid to talk about if he had the 2012 wdc how would his chances look as a 2x wdc on a par with SV and FA. Trying to subtract 2008 is a whole new can of worms that would put many championships in question.

#204 ayali

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:25

180-ish points is insane.

I concur 180-ish points is indeed insane :lol:

#205 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 13:28

Disagree. Yeah he made the mistake at his pit stop in singapore or blow up his engine Hungary. Believe it or not Hamilton was on par with Massa this year. He dropped the ball many times as Massa did. The main difference is this was a rather poor year of Hamilton. For Massa it was his best of his career. Can't believe it that Hamilton fans still try to sell this championship campaign as great effort.

Not all Hamilton fans. I found a lot of 2008 painful to watch, although the highlights made up for it (Silverstone especially!).

#206 Masenco

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:45

Ive been rewatching the races from the 2007 and 2008 and its really surprising to see how many mistakes drivers used to make per season. Its incomparable to the 2012 season drivers like lewis and alonso had.

#207 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 14:53

Ive been rewatching the races from the 2007 and 2008 and its really surprising to see how many mistakes drivers used to make per season. Its incomparable to the 2012 season drivers like lewis and alonso had.


The Pirelli tyre saving exercise that F1 has become has no doubt contributed to this - they're driving on the limit for far shorter periods of time than before.

#208 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 15:12

Ive been rewatching the races from the 2007 and 2008 and its really surprising to see how many mistakes drivers used to make per season. Its incomparable to the 2012 season drivers like lewis and alonso had.

In part, that's because in 2007 and 2008 drivers were able to drive at ten-tenths for the full race without having to worry about destroying their tyres. Inevitably more mistakes are made when the driver can push to the limits of the car's performance.

#209 Masenco

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:08

Great point, forgot about that :p

#210 slmk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:32

They both made mistakes but that's not the point, Massa did enough to win the title when you take away factors outside the driver's control. The reality was that the Ferrari was the faster car - that Hamilton was able to win the title in a slower car, despite making a host of costly errors himself, only proves Ferrari dropped the ball. Massa lost 20 points at Hungary and Singapore, Hamilton gained two points from those. On the other hand, there was an 8 point swing in his favour due to the debacle at Spa. Still, remove factors outside of the driver's control and Massa is the winner, whatever way you skin it. Doesn't mean he drove better than Hamilton mind, but that's not what's being discussed.


No.

You forgot Massa spinning on the first lap in Australia (starting fourth, he eventually DNF'd), spinning forever in Silverstone (KR scored pts), unable to catch Piquet in Hockenheim (the car had pace based on Kimi's late charge), missing Ste. Devote in Monaco (great quali, poor race), boneheaded driving in Fuji (ramming LH), requiring Kimi to let him through in China to keep his WDC hopes alive.

Edited by slmk, 11 January 2013 - 16:33.


#211 PretentiousBread

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 16:54

No.

You forgot Massa spinning on the first lap in Australia (starting fourth, he eventually DNF'd), spinning forever in Silverstone (KR scored pts), unable to catch Piquet in Hockenheim (the car had pace based on Kimi's late charge), missing Ste. Devote in Monaco (great quali, poor race), boneheaded driving in Fuji (ramming LH), requiring Kimi to let him through in China to keep his WDC hopes alive.


No

I didn't forget any of that. We're talking about points lost outside of a driver's control, we're not talking about which driver did the best job, as I've already said.

#212 peroa

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 17:27

The Pirelli tyre saving exercise that F1 has become has no doubt contributed to this - they're driving on the limit for far shorter periods of time than before.

Heh, from 2014 it will not only be a tyre saving exercise but also a fuel saving one.
The only limit these cars will see will be the limit of utter boredom...

#213 MP422

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 18:10

No.

You forgot Massa spinning on the first lap in Australia (starting fourth, he eventually DNF'd), spinning forever in Silverstone (KR scored pts), unable to catch Piquet in Hockenheim (the car had pace based on Kimi's late charge), missing Ste. Devote in Monaco (great quali, poor race), boneheaded driving in Fuji (ramming LH), requiring Kimi to let him through in China to keep his WDC hopes alive.


I think he also spun off the track into the gravel the second race too.

#214 jjcale

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:18

Heh, from 2014 it will not only be a tyre saving exercise but also a fuel saving one.
The only limit these cars will see will be the limit of utter boredom...


... so back to the old days then??

#215 garoidb

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 19:41

Ive been rewatching the races from the 2007 and 2008 and its really surprising to see how many mistakes drivers used to make per season. Its incomparable to the 2012 season drivers like lewis and alonso had.


The top drivers from 2007 - 2008 are still top drivers today, joined by Vettel who was just emerging in 2008. The belated emergence of the highly experienced Button, and the return of Scumacher, together with the others having four to six more years experience, means that the elite group of 2012 is much more experienced than back then. Another factor is that the bar has been raised in respect of consistency - if Vettel (or Alonso) is scoring in almost every race then you are never going to win a WDC making regular errors or with poor reliability.

Edited by garoidb, 11 January 2013 - 19:46.


#216 slmk

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 21:28

The top drivers from 2007 - 2008 are still top drivers today, joined by Vettel who was just emerging in 2008. The belated emergence of the highly experienced Button, and the return of Scumacher, together with the others having four to six more years experience, means that the elite group of 2012 is much more experienced than back then. Another factor is that the bar has been raised in respect of consistency - if Vettel (or Alonso) is scoring in almost every race then you are never going to win a WDC making regular errors or with poor reliability.


Maybe but I'm pretty sure the single most important factor is that they pretty much coast nowadays.

#217 garoidb

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 22:31

Maybe but I'm pretty sure the single most important factor is that they pretty much coast nowadays.


Well, maybe that is another factor but consider this. Since 2007, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Webber, Massa and Raikkonen have all been in races where the WDC has gone down to the wire (Button also came under pressure in Brazil 2009). Most of them have lost WDCs by very small margins (and the others have won by equally small margins). In 2010 in particular, Alonso, Hamilton and Webber can look back on errors which cost them the WDC and, had Vettel lost, it would also have been due to driving errors. I think Vettel and Alonso (and Button to a lesser extent) raised their games in this respect in 2011 and this continued into 2012 (Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton).

Leaving tyres aside, WDC contenders now have to be very wary of avoidable DNFs, such as those caused by making contact with other cars.



#218 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 16:51

and to further stretch the consistency, he could have won in 2007 f not Fred



Lewis succumbed to the pressure of the championship run in 2007.

This factor is also overlooked in all the 'lost points' analysis for 2012, a year in which Hamilton was never in the hunt and therefore was able to race pressure free. If he had the pressure of leading a team in a championship campaign in 2012 he likely would have lost the points due to pressure related errors and mistakes.

Having said that he should do relatively well at Mercedes next season as the car will probably not be at the top level and he can race as an underdog without pressure.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 January 2013 - 16:54.


#219 LiJu914

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 17:23

Maybe but I'm pretty sure the single most important factor is that they pretty much coast nowadays.


Well i can spontaneously remember, that Alonso made virtually no crucial mistake in 2006. The same goes for Schumacher in 2000 (Hockenheim might be debatable, but imho Fisichella was responsible for their collision).

And there are also enough examples of hard-fought seasons, in which the protagonist may admittedly haven´t been completely faultless, but still made way less mistakes than, what we could witness in 2008. I´ve really trouble to think of a season, in which the main contenders made more mistakes than in 2008.

Edited by LiJu914, 12 January 2013 - 17:23.


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#220 PretentiousBread

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 17:27

Lewis succumbed to the pressure of the championship run in 2007.

This factor is also overlooked in all the 'lost points' analysis for 2012, a year in which Hamilton was never in the hunt and therefore was able to race pressure free. If he had the pressure of leading a team in a championship campaign in 2012 he likely would have lost the points due to pressure related errors and mistakes.

Having said that he should do relatively well at Mercedes next season as the car will probably not be at the top level and he can race as an underdog without pressure.


Never in the hunt? He was leading it twice, and at the time of his Singapore retirement was ahead of Vettel in the standings.

Pure conjecture. Your irrational thought process is so transparent it's cringeworthy...

#221 SunnyENTP

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 17:40

Lewis succumbed to the pressure of the championship run in 2007.

This factor is also overlooked in all the 'lost points' analysis for 2012, a year in which Hamilton was never in the hunt and therefore was able to race pressure free. If he had the pressure of leading a team in a championship campaign in 2012 he likely would have lost the points due to pressure related errors and mistakes.

Having said that he should do relatively well at Mercedes next season as the car will probably not be at the top level and he can race as an underdog without pressure.



:lol:


You do have a habit of making no sense

#222 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 18:08

Never in the hunt? He was leading it twice, and at the time of his Singapore retirement was ahead of Vettel in the standings.

Pure conjecture. Your irrational thought process is so transparent it's cringeworthy...


The point being made is clear. We did not get to see whether Lewis has overcome the weaknesses he has shown before when in WDC contention in the late races of a close season.

#223 MP422

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 19:16

The point being made is clear. We did not get to see whether Lewis has overcome the weaknesses he has shown before when in WDC contention in the late races of a close season.



Sorry i don't buy into that, I think it's just coincidence. What ya got ? Massa in Monza ? Webber in Singapore ? I don't remember Hamilton blowing out. Alonso abu dhabi/valencia 2010 are blow outs. Racing incidents are just that. Getting off tilt and whining and not focusing on your driving is a weakness. Not having a couple race incidents going wheel to wheel.

#224 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 19:23

Sorry i don't buy into that, I think it's just coincidence. What ya got ? Massa in Monza ? Webber in Singapore ? I don't remember Hamilton blowing out. Alonso abu dhabi/valencia 2010 are blow outs. Racing incidents are just that. Getting off tilt and whining and not focusing on your driving is a weakness. Not having a couple race incidents going wheel to wheel.


2007 and 2008. He hasn't been in danger of losing a probable WDC since then, so we have not seen how he would handle those situations now.

#225 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 19:25

If Lewis has some problem with title pressure late in a season, I certainly haven't noticed it.

#226 undersquare

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 19:46

2007 and 2008. He hasn't been in danger of losing a probable WDC since then, so we have not seen how he would handle those situations now.

No mate. Even at 22 in 2007 he was brilliant in Fuji, in China until the bald tyre mistake, and outqualified Alonso in Brazil. Lost his rag perhaps after being blatantly brake-tested by Kimi but was on course until the gearbox faulted. He won 2008 in Brazil with the low-downforce wing in the wet under massive pressure, and blew everyone away in China.

In 2010 he had to be unnaturally perfect to win in that car and he wasn't but he still made fewer mistakes than Alonso and Vettel did this year. Would he have turned across Senna in Brazil? No. Suddenly become slower than his teammate? No.

So if he arrives at the endgame in contention in 2013, by some miracle, it's the others who'll have to up their game to close it out.

#227 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:24

No mate. Even at 22 in 2007 he was brilliant in Fuji, in China until the bald tyre mistake, and outqualified Alonso in Brazil. Lost his rag perhaps after being blatantly brake-tested by Kimi but was on course until the gearbox faulted. He won 2008 in Brazil with the low-downforce wing in the wet under massive pressure, and blew everyone away in China.


Yes, losing control at the pit lane entrance in China 2007 and going off the road on the first lap in Brazil 2007 are good examples of what I mean. He made errors in 2008 too and only won by the skin of his teeth.

In 2010 he had to be unnaturally perfect to win in that car and he wasn't but he still made fewer mistakes than Alonso and Vettel did this year. Would he have turned across Senna in Brazil? No. Suddenly become slower than his teammate? No.


The 2010 McLaren was a competitive car, so don't make out like it was a 2012 Ferrari. Your point about 2012 being error free for Lewis is apt - that never happens when he is trying to close out the WDC (as Alonso and Vettel, of course, were trying to do).

So if he arrives at the endgame in contention in 2013, by some miracle, it's the others who'll have to up their game to close it out.


We will have to see, but I think you underestimate Alonso and Vettel.

#228 undersquare

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:42

Yes, losing control at the pit lane entrance in China 2007 and going off the road on the first lap in Brazil 2007 are good examples of what I mean. He made errors in 2008 too and only won by the skin of his teeth.

The 2010 McLaren was a competitive car, so don't make out like it was a 2012 Ferrari. Your point about 2012 being error free for Lewis is apt - that never happens when he is trying to close out the WDC (as Alonso and Vettel, of course, were trying to do).

We will have to see, but I think you underestimate Alonso and Vettel.

They all make errors. Alonso clearly tightened up this year and Vettel made several mistakes at the end. Not driving on canvas but unforced errors. Alonso 'threw away' 2010 in Spa, if we're going to be so selective, and 2012 in Suzuka.

Meanwhile winning by the skin of their teeth is not 'only' as your bias is trying to paint it. 2008 was the definitive pressure win.

#229 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 20:58

They all make errors. Alonso clearly tightened up this year and Vettel made several mistakes at the end. Not driving on canvas but unforced errors. Alonso 'threw away' 2010 in Spa, if we're going to be so selective, and 2012 in Suzuka.


In 2010, all the contenders made errors which either did or could have cost them the WDC. Part of the reason for that, IMO, is that they were all (SV, FA, MW, LH) in contention through to the end. This year, Lewis wasn't. For 2012, Alonso got all the results possible through to the end of the year. What race could he realistically have had a better finish? Suzuka was a minor error with big consequences (compared to Vettel's good fortune in Brazil for example).

Meanwhile winning by the skin of their teeth is not 'only' as your bias is trying to paint it. 2008 was the definitive pressure win.


No, he did not have the situation under control. It could have gone either way at the end.

#230 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:04

Yes, losing control at the pit lane entrance in China 2007 and going off the road on the first lap in Brazil 2007 are good examples of what I mean. He made errors in 2008 too and only won by the skin of his teeth.

Both were pretty minor errors. One happened to cost him big(and wasn't entirely his fault), the other didn't really affect anything.

Its like people who say that Alonso colliding with Kimi in Suzuka was him 'crumbling under pressure'. Its just kind of exaggerating things.

The 2010 McLaren was a competitive car, so don't make out like it was a 2012 Ferrari. Your point about 2012 being error free for Lewis is apt - that never happens when he is trying to close out the WDC (as Alonso and Vettel, of course, were trying to do).

2010 Mclaren was a competitive car, but it certainly wasn't a 2010 Red Bull, either.

As for being error-free, thats very hard to do for any driver, whether its late in the season with a lot on the line or not. I think overall, Lewis is one of the least error-prone guys out there overall. And as undersquare said, there's lots of examples of Lewis performing very well under pressure. Something you dont seem to want to acknowledge.

We will have to see, but I think you underestimate Alonso and Vettel.

I agree with that, although I do think its worth pointing out that both Alonso and Vettel have come under scrutiny for their 'ability under pressure', too. Not that those were any more justified, but I think it shows that if people are looking for it, they'll see it.

#231 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:14

As for being error-free, thats very hard to do for any driver, whether its late in the season with a lot on the line or not. I think overall, Lewis is one of the least error-prone guys out there overall. And as undersquare said, there's lots of examples of Lewis performing very well under pressure. Something you dont seem to want to acknowledge.


I don't think I am being hypercritical of Lewis. My central point is that he was not under the same kind of pressure that Vettel and Alonso were this year, so being error free by comparison to them is not a valid comparison. I would like to see how he would handle the very high pressure situations now that he is more experienced and mature, but we did not get to see that. I can't be bothered to argue too much about 2007 and 2008 because it is increasingly irrelevant to the situation today (and for Lewis's chances of winning the 2013 WDC, the topic at hand).

#232 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:17

I don't think I am being hypercritical of Lewis. My central point is that he was not under the same kind of pressure that Vettel and Alonso were this year, so being error free by comparison to them is not a valid comparison. I would like to see how he would handle the very high pressure situations now that he is more experienced and mature, but we did not get to see that. I can't be bothered to argue too much about 2007 and 2008 because it is increasingly irrelevant to the situation today (and for Lewis's chances of winning the 2013 WDC, the topic at hand).

If Lewis has shown he can handle pressure situations in the past, I dont see any reason to assume he'd get worse at it with experience and maturity.

#233 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:22

If Lewis has shown he can handle pressure situations in the past, I dont see any reason to assume he'd get worse at it with experience and maturity.


I don't think he has shown that in the past, but in view of the thread title I am going leave it at that.

Edited by garoidb, 12 January 2013 - 21:23.


#234 Mc_Silver

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 21:36

If he has a winning car, he will do the job for sure..

#235 Requiem84

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 22:41

I don't think he has shown that in the past, but in view of the thread title I am going leave it at that.


After the 07 misfortune in the end, I think he took too much blame himself. Ever since 07 Lewis started driving very conservatively when he was still in the hunt at the end of a championship. One of the moments when he is not at his best... Button or Alonso can do that better, because they still take some measured risks.

How good Hamilton is under real pressure is still hard to tell. Only 07 and 08 we're good moments to judge that. Maybe he has matured now.

One more thing; when Vettel overtook him in 08 in Brazil, he knew he lost the WC. Still he drove those last laps very well, didn't do any do or die moves on Vettel, but just kept on going as good as he could. You could argue that this is a sign of him handling the pressure, and not completely folding at least.

#236 garoidb

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 23:34

After the 07 misfortune in the end, I think he took too much blame himself. Ever since 07 Lewis started driving very conservatively when he was still in the hunt at the end of a championship. One of the moments when he is not at his best... Button or Alonso can do that better, because they still take some measured risks.

How good Hamilton is under real pressure is still hard to tell. Only 07 and 08 we're good moments to judge that. Maybe he has matured now.

One more thing; when Vettel overtook him in 08 in Brazil, he knew he lost the WC. Still he drove those last laps very well, didn't do any do or die moves on Vettel, but just kept on going as good as he could. You could argue that this is a sign of him handling the pressure, and not completely folding at least.


Well, we can go over the history forever. I can agree with your last point and I hope we see more seasons where Lewis is once again a factor for the WDC right to the end soon.

#237 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:58

Never in the hunt? He was leading it twice, and at the time of his Singapore retirement was ahead of Vettel in the standings.

Pure conjecture. Your irrational thought process is so transparent it's cringeworthy...



He may have had a glimmer of hope after the Italian GP, even at 37 points back, but it was extremely short lived. All the way down the stretch to the end of the season he was never racing under the immense pressure that the championship leaders were experiencing, nothing irrational about that at all.

And seeing Lewis falter in past seasons in pressure situations - 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011(self imposed) - it just doesn't allow for a 'lost point' tally when he wasn't exposed to the same mental stress as the championship leaders. It is an interesting diversion to think of what might have been ... only if ... but it isn't a real comparison.

Lewis just hasn't been the money guy so far in his career. Maybe going to Mercedes will be a turning point for him, we shall see.


No mate. Even at 22 in 2007 he was brilliant in Fuji, in China until the bald tyre mistake, and outqualified Alonso in Brazil. Lost his rag perhaps after being blatantly brake-tested by Kimi but was on course until the gearbox faulted. He won 2008 in Brazil with the low-downforce wing in the wet under massive pressure, and blew everyone away in China.

In 2010 he had to be unnaturally perfect to win in that car and he wasn't but he still made fewer mistakes than Alonso and Vettel did this year. Would he have turned across Senna in Brazil? No. Suddenly become slower than his teammate? No.

So if he arrives at the endgame in contention in 2013, by some miracle, it's the others who'll have to up their game to close it out.


Have a look at this video undersquare, http://www.veoh.com/...n GP Intelagos , at around the 4:00 minute mark you can see Hamilton giving that gearbox a good slamming on the curb when he went off the track behind Heidfeld. This is less than two laps before the gearbox froze up, a driving error that most likely is the cause of that failure. Pressure got to him.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 13 January 2013 - 16:44.


#238 SCEPurple

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 02:16

Very unlikely, Halifax

#239 Lazy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:17

He better had win it, looks like it might be his last chance.

Merc 2014 engine

"There will be a new quality to the racing too. It will edge towards a thinking drivers' formula to get the most from the car and the available fuel energy.

 ;)

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#240 moorsey

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 08:38

Lewis succumbed to the pressure of the championship run in 2007.

This factor is also overlooked in all the 'lost points' analysis for 2012, a year in which Hamilton was never in the hunt and therefore was able to race pressure free. If he had the pressure of leading a team in a championship campaign in 2012 he likely would have lost the points due to pressure related errors and mistakes.

Having said that he should do relatively well at Mercedes next season as the car will probably not be at the top level and he can race as an underdog without pressure.


My God, your hatred for Lewis does allow you to write some rubbish. :stoned:

#241 undersquare

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 10:05

No, he did not have the situation under control. It could have gone either way at the end.

'Having the situation under control' is a totally fake criterion for driving well under pressure. He had the wrong package for the conditions, had a strategy error that cost him places, yet still brought it home. There was nothing about 2008 to suggest that if he's in contention in 2013 he'll be any more error-prone at the end than FA/SV. Rather the opposite if anything.

#242 robefc

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:27

He better had win it, looks like it might be his last chance.

Merc 2014 engine

"There will be a new quality to the racing too. It will edge towards a thinking drivers' formula to get the most from the car and the available fuel energy.

;)


:lol: I thought exactly the same thing when I read that!

#243 robefc

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 14:30

He may have had a glimmer of hope after the Italian GP, even at 37 points back, but it was extremely short lived. All the way down the stretch to the end of the season he was never racing under the immense pressure that the championship leaders were experiencing, nothing irrational about that at all.

And seeing Lewis falter under in past seasons in pressure situations - 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011(self imposed) - it just doesn't allow for a 'lost point' tally when he wasn't exposed to the same mental stress as the championship leaders. It is an interesting diversion to think of what might have been ... only if ... but it isn't a real comparison.

Lewis just hasn't been the money guy so far in his career. Maybe going to Mercedes will be a turning point for him, we shall see.

Pressure got to him.


In all the threads where this has been discussed, often with you and me contributing, I've yet to see anyone refute the point that lewis's mistakes over his career have been fairly well distributed throughout different times of the season rather than disproportionately allocated to the last few races of seasons where he was in championship contention.

#244 P123

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:06

In all the threads where this has been discussed, often with you and me contributing, I've yet to see anyone refute the point that lewis's mistakes over his career have been fairly well distributed throughout different times of the season rather than disproportionately allocated to the last few races of seasons where he was in championship contention.


I think the main problem with the 'pressure got to him' brigade is that they are unfortunately blind to the pressure that is generally always there; pressure which he handles quite well. There is also the problem from that same section of 'thinking' in that they interpret any error from him as automatically cracking under pressure. You have to assume they judge other drivers similarly, but are silent on such. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling arguement when you take that fairly blinkered approach.

#245 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 15:32

I don't think he has shown that in the past

Thats what happens when you only cherrypick little things that support your theory and ignore all of the evidence that proves otherwise.

#246 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 17:25

I think the main problem with the 'pressure got to him' brigade is that they are unfortunately blind to the pressure that is generally always there; pressure which he handles quite well. There is also the problem from that same section of 'thinking' in that they interpret any error from him as automatically cracking under pressure. You have to assume they judge other drivers similarly, but are silent on such. It's a bit of a self-fulfilling arguement when you take that fairly blinkered approach.


Is it not obvious that these sorts are having to get more inventive with ways to detract from Hamilton's performances, on the back of such an error-free season?

#247 MP422

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 00:35

I hope the Mercedes is a rocket in testing !!! It's possible !!

#248 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 00:57

Lewis just hasn't been the money guy so far in his career.

Have a look at this video undersquare, http://www.veoh.com/...n GP Intelagos , at around the 4:00 minute mark you can see Hamilton giving that gearbox a good slamming on the curb when he went off the track behind Heidfeld. This is less than two laps before the gearbox froze up, a driving error that most likely is the cause of that failure. Pressure got to him.


In all the threads where this has been discussed, often with you and me contributing, I've yet to see anyone refute the point that lewis's mistakes over his career have been fairly well distributed throughout different times of the season rather than disproportionately allocated to the last few races of seasons where he was in championship contention.


Brazil 07 is a very good example of where the pressure did get to him I would say. It was the championship deciding race where everything was on the line and in the span of the first five laps Hamilton had put the car off the track twice, once at the start and then again behind Heidfeld.

Posted Image

And you may be absolutely correct that Lewis's mistakes are evenly distributed throughout the season. But this is not the point that I am making. In these situations (wdc title runs) you need perform under pressure and this means that you make fewer if not no mistakes when the pressure builds. That's what I mean by saying he hasn't been that money guy. To be that guy you need to drive better or even make no mistakes when it matters in the big races at the end of the season.

Webber was called out for this just last week by Marko, " Webber struggles with title pressure ". Imo Hamilton struggles a bit with this as well.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 16 January 2013 - 16:35.


#249 BillBald

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:43

In these situations (wdc title runs) you need perform under pressure and this means that you make fewer if not no mistakes when the pressure builds.


I'd be really interested to know which drivers (past or present) you believe responded to pressure by making less mistakes (or no mistakes).



#250 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:22

I'd be really interested to know which drivers (past or present) you believe responded to pressure by making less mistakes (or no mistakes).



In that article Marko held Vettel up as a driver who thrives under pressure. I would agree with that.