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McLaren MP4-28


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#1 Owen

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 14:54

Here's what we know - not much sadly. I hope (and expect) to collate more information (here) in due course as the launch nears.
Warning: This thread is here to compile solid information and not wild speculation / opinions / bickering etc
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'There will be a large degree of carry over from the 2012 car' Sam Michael
Radio 5 Live
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Jenson Button expects the 2013 McLaren to suit him more than this year's car
Jenson Button has expressed his confidence that the 2013 McLaren will "suit me a bit more" after admitting he has struggled for consistency in this year's MP4-27. Although the Briton has claimed two victories so far this campaign, he is already guaranteed to finish with fewer points in the championship than at the end of both of his two previous two years with the Woking team.
Indeed, the 2009 World Champion duly admitted to the British press last week that the 2012 car was the "worst" of the three McLarens he had driven. Elaborating on those thoughts to Sky Sports News ahead of this weekend's penultimate round in the United States, which will be exclusively live on Sky Sports F1, Button acknowledged that while the MP4-27 had shown itself to be a very competitive package overall, it just hadn't worked out for him. However, Button isn't expecting the same problem to affect him next season.
"For me this year has been more difficult than the last two years," he said. "The car is quick, we've proved that on many occasions. But for consistency for me it's been a little bit more difficult to get the results. The car next year should suit me a bit more, which I'm very excited about."
Sky Sports News
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McLaren to follow Ferrari's 'pull-rod' lead in 2013
Another publication is reporting rumours McLaren will follow Ferrari's lead in opting for innovative pull-rod front and rear suspension for its 2013 car.
A little more than a month ago, the Spanish sports daily Marca said the British team's MP4-28 - like Ferrari's current F2012 - will have pull-rod front suspension. Until 2012, the configuration had not been seen since Fernando Alonso raced a Minardi more than a decade ago. Ferrari struggled initially this season, but Marca said the Italian team's giant strides of progress since then piqued the interest of McLaren's technical director, Paddy Lowe.
"Obviously, at the start, after the winter tests, we were a bit behind," Ferrari's British technical director, the former McLaren man Pat Fry, said this week. "I think we learned a lot in this period and used that later on.
"In my opinion, we have overtaken a large part of the other teams in terms of development over the season -- we staged a good recovery, but there is still a long way to go."
Similar information about McLaren's pull-rod approach for 2013 is now being reported by Autosprint, the authoritative Italian motor racing weekly. "A few months ago it would have been unthinkable," said the publication's Alberto Antonini.
motorsport.com
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Earlier in 2012 Paddy Lowe said it was their "assumption" that Hamilton would stay. "That's how we're working in terms of the design for next year," he said. However, Lowe added that a change of driver was "ordinarily, not a huge issue" in terms of design.
BBC F1
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There are also some rumours McLaren will spend 2013 building their own F1 engine for the 2014 season. I can't give them much credibility though.
f1-viewpoint
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McLaren is to unveil its 2013 car on January 31.
The Mercedes-powered MP4-28, which will be driven by Jenson Button and Sergio Perez, will be launched at a currently unspecified location in the United Kingdom.
Autosport.com

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#2 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 15:53

Ok since this is now up and running with some information about the suspension, a note to remind posters that if you want to discuss names such as 'silver donkey' or 'silver limo' etc for the car, you should start a thread. If you wish to discuss drivers, incidents, legality, how it compares with its competitiors or anything which isn't in relation to the ongoing technical development of the MP4-28, then please find other threads for that, making sure you search first.

#3 Rocket73

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:18

Woohoo!

I saw on TV whitmarsh suggesting that the 28 would be 96% new and is already 1 sec quicker than last year...the pull-rod situation if true is worrying in that it might hold them back

#4 Szoelloe

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:22

Woohoo!

I saw on TV whitmarsh suggesting that the 28 would be 96% new and is already 1 sec quicker than last year...the pull-rod situation if true is worrying in that it might hold them back


seriously? Why?? There is absolutely no difference between the effect of push/pull-rod.


#5 Rocket73

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:23

but it's completely different set up and it definitely held ferrari back last year

#6 olliek88

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:34

A bit more info on front pull rod suspension -

http://scarbsf1.com/...rod-suspension/

I'll let you figure it all out as quite frankly most of it goes over my head, bar it being an aero benefit the actual geometry pro's and con's just go in one ear and out the other!

#7 Szoelloe

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:43

but it's completely different set up and it definitely held ferrari back last year


No, it did not.

#8 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 18:52

but it's completely different set up and it definitely held ferrari back last year


It didn't. Not even in the slightest.

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 04 January 2013 - 18:52.


#9 jrg19

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 19:01

Owen! Your first post in a while.

Looking forward to seeing the car on the 31st, just over Three weeks to go.

Cars #5 and #6 lets hope for some wins!

#10 race addicted

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 19:12

I'm intrigued to see how they've solved the pull-rod suspension. Even more to see how they fare with it, initially, 'cause I don't expect them to fall on their faces, but a period of learning it is bound to be.

Edited by race addicted, 04 January 2013 - 19:13.


#11 ATM_Andy

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 20:19

I'm intrigued to see how they've solved the pull-rod suspension. Even more to see how they fare with it, initially, 'cause I don't expect them to fall on their faces, but a period of learning it is bound to be.


It's really not that different, just a pain in the bum to work on as you have to go in form underneath (oh err missus)...

#12 Rocket73

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 21:07

It didn't. Not even in the slightest.


Debatable....and new components on f1 cars never have teething problems? if whitmarsh is right though it sounds like virtually the whole car is new so makes little difference.

the other question that comes from this is does this mean that there will be a high nose this year?

#13 BillBald

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 21:18

Debatable....and new components on f1 cars never have teething problems? if whitmarsh is right though it sounds like virtually the whole car is new so makes little difference.

the other question that comes from this is does this mean that there will be a high nose this year?


I believe that, on the face of it, a high nose would be more suited (geometrically speaking) to pushrod, and a low nose more to pullrod.

That's partly why people were so surprised that Ferrari went for the high nose with pullrod. But they seem to have made it work.



#14 Kvothe

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 22:10

I believe that, on the face of it, a high nose would be more suited (geometrically speaking) to pushrod, and a low nose more to pullrod.

That's partly why people were so surprised that Ferrari went for the high nose with pullrod. But they seem to have made it work.


I don't think so?

Wasn't part of the reason Ferrari opted for a pull rod suspension, was because it offered a lower cog than a pushrod solution would which marginally helped offset one of the disadvadvantages of running with a higher nose compared to running with a lower nose like McLaren?

If that was the case than I would have to argue the opposite of your point which is not that a low nose would be more suited to either push/pull rod, but that a higher nose would work better in conjunction with a pull rod solution.

I also think that with the relatively stable regs the new McLaren will have a higher nose based not only on the tests they ran earlier last season with the bar in front of the drivers cockpit simulating the height of the nose but also because it can be argued that they were somewhat handicapped by running with a lower nose, which didn't allow them to exploit all the available airflow as much as other teams, and though they remedied it somewhat from Barcelona onwards with the nose dipping up, allowing more airflow underneath, it wasn't a satisfactory solution. Just putting aside just how interconnected and synergetic every piece of an F1 car is for one moment, if they've managed to find a compatible high nose solution, than considering the 28 will be an evolution of the 27 I wouldn't be surprised that they've already managed to find a gain of about a second.

Edited by Kvothe, 04 January 2013 - 22:13.


#15 BillBald

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 22:29

I don't think so?

Wasn't part of the reason Ferrari opted for a pull rod suspension, was because it offered a lower cog than a pushrod solution would which marginally helped offset one of the disadvadvantages of running with a higher nose compared to running with a lower nose like McLaren?

If that was the case than I would have to argue the opposite of your point which is not that a low nose would be more suited to either push/pull rod, but that a higher nose would work better in conjunction with a pull rod solution.

I also think that with the relatively stable regs the new McLaren will have a higher nose based not only on the tests they ran earlier last season with the bar in front of the drivers cockpit simulating the height of the nose but also because it can be argued that they were somewhat handicapped by running with a lower nose, which didn't allow them to exploit all the available airflow as much as other teams, and though they remedied it somewhat from Barcelona onwards with the nose dipping up, allowing more airflow underneath, it wasn't a satisfactory solution. Just putting aside just how interconnected and synergetic every piece of an F1 car is for one moment, if they've managed to find a compatible high nose solution, than considering the 28 will be an evolution of the 27 I wouldn't be surprised that they've already managed to find a gain of about a second.


I don't disagree with anything you've said, but you need to focus on the word 'geometrically' in my post.

From the point of view of suspension geometry alone, the high nose means that, for a given upward or downward movement of the wheel, the pull rod will bring about less movement at the rocker. This was discussed at length, eg by Scarbs, who IIRC concluded that this effect was mitigated by a change in wheel camber as the wheel moved up or down. OK if you want that camber change, but if you don't, or if you want to be more flexible in terms of the amount of camber change, then pull rod might not be ideal.






#16 JRizzle86

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 22:37

Gonna be interesting to see how much the design of the car has been towards Perez's driving demands considering for the most part of its early development Lewis was still thought to be continuing driver.

#17 onewingedangel

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:58

Gonna be interesting to see how much the design of the car has been towards Perez's driving demands considering for the most part of its early development Lewis was still thought to be continuing driver.


I don't think a car is really designed around a driver other than being able to fit them in physically. Perez might even have a slight advantage at first as he drove a car with a higher chassis last year so would be more used to the reduced visibility.

#18 Markn93

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 18:28

Hope they design the s*** out of this car, Andy - I'm holding you personally responsible for stopping the fizzy-drinks company!

#19 study

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 19:33

Gonna be interesting to see how much the design of the car has been towards Perez's driving demands considering for the most part of its early development Lewis was still thought to be continuing driver.


Wast the 2012 car designed around and with Jensons input? So I presume the 2013 car will be the same.

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#20 Mc_Silver

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:28

I'm excited to see the new car really. I expect something clever from our guys in exhaust area

25 Days to go for Mp4-28!!


#21 olliek88

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 18:36

Wast the 2012 car designed around and with Jensons input? So I presume the 2013 car will be the same.


I'm not sure how much of this designed "around" a driver stuff i buy into, every driver just wants a perfectly balanced car and every team tries to make a perfectly balanced car, sure it rarely happens as its not easy to do but other than the size/shape of the cockpit i don't think the driver comes into it to much. Perhaps steering wheel layout and power steering weight/feel but thats probably about it. The difference is made in setting the car up, thats where driver preference comes into it, not the design philosophy.

Thats how i see it anyway, perhaps someone *cough* Andy *cough* could enlighten us though...

#22 mlsnoopy

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 20:30

I fear that it will be a fugly.


#23 10e10

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 21:08

The 28 will mark McLaren's 50th year in F1. Let's hope it's a WC's winner so we can celebrate this historic year.

#24 Mc_Silver

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 21:52

I fear that it will be a fugly.


McLaren design office will make sure it will be beatiful don't worry :cool:

#25 loki0420

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 23:02

The 28 will mark McLaren's 50th year in F1. Let's hope it's a WC's winner so we can celebrate this historic year.

remark : McLaren's 50th year - not in F1 ;)

#26 10e10

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 00:43

remark : McLaren's 50th year - not in F1 ;)


My bad :up:

#27 mlsnoopy

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:23

McLaren design office will make sure it will be beatiful don't worry :cool:


The looks of the car is the least of my worries.

#28 JRizzle86

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:32

remark : McLaren's 50th year - not in F1 ;)


Indeed gotta wait another 3 years for that.

#29 Mc_Silver

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 13:22

If the car is already 1 second quicker than the Mp4-27 in Brasil then we should expect pretty decent car. However, I fear Newey will find a loophole in rules like in 2010

#30 Brandz07

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 20:20

If the car is already 1 second quicker than the Mp4-27 in Brasil then we should expect pretty decent car. However, I fear Newey will find a loophole in rules like in 2010


It'll be harder to find loopholes than in 2010, so hopefully not!

#31 ATM_Andy

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 20:55

It'll be harder to find loopholes than in 2010, so hopefully not!


There's always another loophole.



#32 Mc_Silver

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 20:56

There's always another loophole.


Will we see Passive-DRS on Mp4-28?


#33 rodlamas

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 21:04

Will we see Passive-DRS on Mp4-28?


Obvious. An 8 speed gearbox and a Mercedes engine with extra 100bhp compared to last year.

#34 Seanspeed

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 16:09

but it's completely different set up and it definitely held ferrari back last year

Ferrari had problems at the rear of the car. Pull-rod was just an easy exercise in finger-pointing by overly anxious journalists like Gary Anderson. There's nothing to suggest that Ferrari had any issues adapting, so I wouldn't expect Mclaren to have any either.

#35 silversurf3r

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 17:00

Not sure if this has already been mentioned but Mclaren have the customary new car under a sheet image on their home page again. Pretty sure it's a generic model but I usually enjoy all the armchair experts comments on the possible changes...... None of that this year?

Mclaren.com

#36 ElDictatore

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 17:48

Not sure if this has already been mentioned but Mclaren have the customary new car under a sheet image on their home page again. Pretty sure it's a generic model but I usually enjoy all the armchair experts comments on the possible changes...... None of that this year?

Mclaren.com



Ok this time I'm pretty sure it's the same model from last year. Imagine what this thread would be like again if they would do some changes to the model 'just for the lulz' :lol:. It's pretty calm actually compared to last year at the same time. Remember the jet fighter intakes?

#37 bogi

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:14

On Wednesday 9th January at 4.30pm GMT, Sergio Pérez will be meeting fans of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes via a video conference in a Google+ hangout, held on the official Vodafone McLaren Mercedes Google+ page. Simply visit the Google+ page to watch the hangout.


Probably we will have some info about MP4-28 and see Sergio in team wear.


Why G+? Nobody uses google plus :down:

#38 H2H

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:49


To be honest I would like to see McLaren go for a pull-rod up front just to see how they will do it. Scarbs has been already linked, this is his original text:

This effectively turns the pushrod set up upside down, now the rod passes down from the upper wishbone and connects with the rocker, which is now mounted at the bottom of the chassis. According to Fry, this set up is a little lighter and has a slightly lower Centre of Gravity. These gains alone will not pay for the systems inclusion on the car, so the team claim to have found an aero benefit. The pullrod can be thinner, but the real gain is the pullrod is mounted near horizontal across the front suspension. This places it in line with the upwash from the front wing. Just as with the wishbones, its profile can be subtly altered within the rules to help control the wake from the wing and improve the airflow over the rear of the car. Despite appearances the pullrod is as effective in moving the rocker for a given wheel travel as a pushrod. The important factor is the angle between the rod and the wishbone is connected to, rather than the rods angle to the chassis. I’ll explain a lot more pull rod suspension in a subsequent article.


The aerodynamic development of the external suspension elements has been quite interesting in the last years. RBR did something neat with their rear ones during the last season in this regard.





#39 Brandz07

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:18

Probably we will have some info about MP4-28 and see Sergio in team wear.


Why G+? Nobody uses google plus :down:


It's the easiest way to video conference with large groups of people and still promote one of their fan pages, I guess? No idea.

Edited by Brandz07, 09 January 2013 - 14:24.


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#40 EvanRainer

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:15

Imagine what this thread would be like again if they would do some changes to the model 'just for the lulz' :lol:. It's pretty calm actually compared to last year at the same time.


Gee, I wonder why that might be... :)


#41 techspeed

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:54

Why G+? Nobody uses google plus :down:

Anyone who wants to create a video web chat which can be watched by a public audience has to use Google Hangout, there isn't an alternative. It's a lot more personal than replying to questions on Twitter.

#42 Gintonious

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:08

"Next years mclaren has a stepped nose. Don't fear though, like Williams it will take advantage of nose modesty panel. Less ugly cars in 13!"

Saw that on twitter a few moments ago.

#43 JRizzle86

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:33

I fear that all cars except one will try to wear these modesty panels at the first race of the season. The other teams will fear that team is gaining an advantage, by race two none of them will be wearing them. Especially if the car in question has a questionable letterbox in the step.

#44 BillBald

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 13:58

To be honest I would like to see McLaren go for a pull-rod up front just to see how they will do it. Scarbs has been already linked, this is his original text:


The aerodynamic development of the external suspension elements has been quite interesting in the last years. RBR did something neat with their rear ones during the last season in this regard.


I'm quite nervous about the possibility of a pull-rod front, I would prefer a focus on reliability rather than change. We don't need more finger-trouble, or suspension changes which are difficult and involve losing a session.

Scarbs comments relate to the Ferrari's geometry, when he says that the action on the rockers is better than you would expect. IIRC the front track width on the Ferrari changes with the suspension movement, so if the nose dips, the wheels move further apart (much more than is normal for an F1 car). This action would perhaps tend to put more heat into the front tyres, which on the face of it might be a good thing, but if the new 2013 tyres heat up more quickly anyway, it might turn out to be too much of a good thing.

But I guess Macca know what they're doing. :)

Edited for clarity.



Edited by BillBald, 10 January 2013 - 14:16.


#45 rsaca

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 17:51

I'm no expert but from what I've read, the pull-rod helped Ferrari in wet races such as Malaysia and Hockenheim Quali because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it helped the F2012 to heat the tyres more quickly than others.

It seemed to work OK for the car and, as Seanspeed mentions, it became an easy target for some pseudo-journalists when the F2012 was not performing as well. In fact, the pull-rod was one of the few things that did actually work on the car.

#46 Szoelloe

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 18:04

I'm no expert but from what I've read, the pull-rod helped Ferrari in wet races such as Malaysia and Hockenheim Quali because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it helped the F2012 to heat the tyres more quickly than others.

It seemed to work OK for the car and, as Seanspeed mentions, it became an easy target for some pseudo-journalists when the F2012 was not performing as well. In fact, the pull-rod was one of the few things that did actually work on the car.


I don't think the pull-rod solution has anything to do with heating the tyres more effectively, or less, to that matter. It has no extra effects compared to a push-rod solution. It enables a slightly better packaging(lower CoG), and is, IMHO incorporated in a design as a whole. It is not the holy grail of front suspensions.


#47 BillBald

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 19:39

I don't think the pull-rod solution has anything to do with heating the tyres more effectively, or less, to that matter. It has no extra effects compared to a push-rod solution. It enables a slightly better packaging(lower CoG), and is, IMHO incorporated in a design as a whole. It is not the holy grail of front suspensions.


To make the pull-rod work with a high chassis, they have to use a particular geometry, in which the wheels move very much outwards as well as upwards.

It's the outward movement which provides the 'pull', because the up-and-down movement doesn't do anything when the pull-rod is nearly horizontal.

Of course, if the designers decided that they want that geometry, for other reasons like (for example) tyre warming, then it's not a problem. But's it's definitely not true to say that there are 'no extra effects compared to push-rod'.



#48 showtime

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:30

McLaren ‏@TheFifthDriver
Who's up for seeing a sneak peek picture of the new car? #McLarenCarReveal


#49 Owen

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:36

McLaren ‏@TheFifthDriver
Who's up for seeing a sneak peek picture of the new car? #McLarenCarReveal

Cue meaningless abstract photos. But we live in hope of something more! :)

#50 jrg19

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:17

Probably going to be picture of the step in the nose. :drunk: