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McLaren MP4-28


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#2051 Alx09

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 16:54

The two of them seemed very equally poised throughout last year.

My god. Mind games?

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#2052 P123

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 16:59

My god. Mind games?


Doubt it- JB may be the main threat to RB this season so nothing to be gained from rewriting 2012 to his benefit from Horner, but then again I doubt Horner pays that much attention, nor cares much, about past McLaren teammate battles.

#2053 trogggy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:01

We'll soon find out, but I think a lot of people are being led by both being known for tyre preservation. Their styles behind the wheel seem disimilar, so no guarantee of a default setup suiting both.

Of course not, and I'm not claiming that.


#2054 WitnessX

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:13

We'll soon find out, but I think a lot of people are being led by both being known for tyre preservation. Their styles behind the wheel seem disimilar, so no guarantee of a default setup suiting both.

It's going to be interesting to find out how much of Checo's tyre preservation ability was just as a result of the cars he has driven.

Edited by WitnessX, 09 March 2013 - 17:15.


#2055 tkulla

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 17:37

It's going to be interesting to find out how much of Checo's tyre preservation ability was just as a result of the cars he has driven.


True, but I think his biggest challenge is coping with a teammate that is on a different level than he's experienced before. KK is a solid driver but certainly not an elite one. For all the flack Button gets on this board, he's an elite driver in the sport and can be devastatingly quick (remember Australia last year when he drove away from Lewis). Since it doesn't appear that Button will be nearly as compromised as he was last year (tyre temp troubles, setup dead end, brake supplier switch) it's very possible that Sergio could find himself scratching his head wondering how he got beat by 40 seconds in a race by his teammate. Some guys face that and redouble their efforts, and some guys are like that boxer who is amazing until the first time he gets knocked down and is never the same.

Just a week left to go, and I can't recall an F1 season where I had so little idea of what the first race was going to look like (and I've been watching since 1988). I still have this gut feeling that the MP4-28 is going to be very quick right out of the box, despite the noise to the contrary coming from the team. I view it as the old "under promise, over deliver" method of managing expectations.

Edited by tkulla, 09 March 2013 - 17:45.


#2056 mclarensmps

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 18:16

I came in here expecting two pages of comments about the MP4-28. What I got instead ranged from LaFerrari, to Chris Harris, to pooflinging between Lewis and Jenson, and a bunch of poster/driver bashing.

I wonder what the MP4-28 is going to do this coming Saturday... I can't wait!

#2057 Hairy

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 18:35

True, but I think his biggest challenge is coping with a teammate that is on a different level than he's experienced before. KK is a solid driver but certainly not an elite one. For all the flack Button gets on this board, he's an elite driver in the sport and can be devastatingly quick (remember Australia last year when he drove away from Lewis). Since it doesn't appear that Button will be nearly as compromised as he was last year (tyre temp troubles, setup dead end, brake supplier switch) it's very possible that Sergio could find himself scratching his head wondering how he got beat by 40 seconds in a race by his teammate. Some guys face that and redouble their efforts, and some guys are like that boxer who is amazing until the first time he gets knocked down and is never the same.

Just a week left to go, and I can't recall an F1 season where I had so little idea of what the first race was going to look like (and I've been watching since 1988). I still have this gut feeling that the MP4-28 is going to be very quick right out of the box, despite the noise to the contrary coming from the team. I view it as the old "under promise, over deliver" method of managing expectations.


I think KK would be quicker over a lap than JB, but otherwise, I can agree with some of this, but not all; LH started 16 places behind JB in Spain and still finished in front of him. He's good when the car is good, and not very good otherwise. That's not just to bash JB, just an honest appraisal. I actually think Perez will give him more of a run for his money than people are suspecting; I remembering harrying Alonso until his off piste moment last year, <tin foil hat on>possibly after being told not to bother their engine supplier</tin foil hat on>.

I think the 28 is a very fast machine, but if it's a handful to set up, I fear for JB again.

Perez may show him up; we just don't know, which is what makes next week all the more watchable. I cannot wait, as I am genuinely unsure as to who is quicker at the top end of the driver parade at the moment.

#2058 MightyMoose

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 19:03

Can't believe some of you decided it would be such an awesome idea to venture that far off-topic!

P1, 458 & in fact any car that's not THE McLAREN MP4-28 is not welcome here in this thread. If you wish to debate that kind of thing, use the Paddock Club. (It's got nothing to do with Racing Comments).

As for the sad old rehash of JB 'sux', Perez ain't good either & LH is 'da bestest'... well that's off-topic as well.

MP4-28 and nothing else.

Please don't derail it, the whole concept of the forum direction now is that people can read topics that interest them and find & follow the threads without fear of trolling/flaming & other unwelcome stuff.

Thanks
MM

#2059 Peter Perfect

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 20:52

I'll focus on the on-topic part of your post...

Where is the proof that the MP4-28 is 'very fast'? If you can show some convincing evidence I'd be more than happy to believe you.

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#2060 Neomaster121

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 21:20

I'll focus on the on-topic part of your post...

Where is the proof that the MP4-28 is 'very fast'? If you can show some convincing evidence I'd be more than happy to believe you.


remember the reactions of teams and drivers after the first test

#2061 BernieEc

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 21:21

I'll focus on the on-topic part of your post...

Where is the proof that the MP4-28 is 'very fast'? If you can show some convincing evidence I'd be more than happy to believe you.


it was fast out of the box at the very first test in Jerez setting a very good lap time on a green track that took a lot of drivers and engineers by surprise.

http://www.f1fanatic...ncredible-time/

#2062 bauss

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 21:25

I'll focus on the on-topic part of your post...

Where is the proof that the MP4-28 is 'very fast'? If you can show some convincing evidence I'd be more than happy to believe you.


"should" being the operative word... same way you expect RB to be very fast.

given how they ended 2012, the hugely stable regs and the expertise available at Mac, anything less than a contender will be a major failure for the design team this year.

Truth though is, we will know how good the car is, cos like Button or not, if the car is good, he will have a few of those GPs where he looks absolutely elite....speculated teammate telemetry help or not.

and he will be generally rapid in the races.

as a matter of fact, if the McLaren ends up the fastest car on Sunday, if 2011 n 2012 especially was anything to go by, then the car should have most likely been fastest on Saturday... chances of McLaren deviating from last years philosophy and concentrating more on a stronger Sunday car is zero, especially with LH gone.

Edited by bauss, 09 March 2013 - 21:26.


#2063 Mc_Silver

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 21:30

Guys calm down, McLaren will have strong car for sure but there are lots of unknowns and it is really hard to make any predictions. I believe we will see different cars up at front track to track. Consistently taking points will be very important as it was shown by Alonso and Kimi last year

#2064 Peter Perfect

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 21:47

"should" being the operative word... same way you expect RB to be very fast.

given how they ended 2012, the hugely stable regs and the expertise available at Mac, anything less than a contender will be a major failure for the design team this year.

Truth though is, we will know how good the car is, cos like Button or not, if the car is good, he will have a few of those GPs where he looks absolutely elite....speculated teammate telemetry help or not.

and he will be generally rapid in the races.

as a matter of fact, if the McLaren ends up the fastest car on Sunday, if 2011 n 2012 especially was anything to go by, then the car should have most likely been fastest on Saturday... chances of McLaren deviating from last years philosophy and concentrating more on a stronger Sunday car is zero, especially with LH gone.

It seems those who were most critical of McLaren last year now appear to hold them in very high esteem. Weird eh?

#2065 D.M.N.

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 09:18

Seeing as people are incapable of reading moderators' posts such as MightyMoose's post above, I will put this in black and white:

Mercedes
- Car thread -> http://forums.autosp...howtopic=179280
- Driver vs Driver thread -> http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178838

McLaren
- Car thread -> this thread
- Driver vs Driver thread -> http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178900

Off-topic posts will be removed.

#2066 study

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 16:57

as a matter of fact, if the McLaren ends up the fastest car on Sunday, if 2011 n 2012 especially was anything to go by, then the car should have most likely been fastest on Saturday... chances of McLaren deviating from last years philosophy and concentrating more on a stronger Sunday car is zero, especially with LH gone.


Which makes McLaren testing strategy off long distance work most strange, they did very few low fuel runs, or with Perez and Button have they given up fighting for pole before the seasons even started?

#2067 Peter Perfect

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 17:30

Just thinking about McLaren potential front-end problems...could we see the return of the snow plough for Oz?

#2068 Clatter

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 18:23

Which makes McLaren testing strategy off long distance work most strange, they did very few low fuel runs, or with Perez and Button have they given up fighting for pole before the seasons even started?


They haven't given up on anything, but the car spends very few laps over a weekend running at low fuel, and there are no points scored for qualifying. It makes much more sense to concentrate on getting the car ready for racing.

#2069 WitnessX

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 18:42

Which makes McLaren testing strategy off long distance work most strange, they did very few low fuel runs, or with Perez and Button have they given up fighting for pole before the seasons even started?

The option tyre is going to be the "throw-away" tyre this year. With the degradation anticipated (it's going to be more like 2011 tyre wise than 2012) there is little sense in balancing the car for qualifying (options), no doubt some will try it (ok .. the exceptions are places like Monaco where track position is paramount ). The degradation of the tyres will allow for overtaking, so since the first set of tyres will not last so long (10 laps?) its more important to balance for the race. Traditionally Button goes for the "prime" (race) target setup, which proved to be the wrong direction in a couple of races last year (eg. Hungary).

If the degradation does turn out to be really bad, I would expect position 11 on the grid to be worth more than pole.

Edited by WitnessX, 10 March 2013 - 18:49.


#2070 study

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 18:50

If the degradation does turn out to be really bad, I would expect position 11 on the grid to be worth more than pole.


Well if thats true then FIA have some thinking to do, maybe even qualifying tyres as when does it start to become a farce.

#2071 tkulla

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 19:12

If the degradation does turn out to be really bad, I would expect position 11 on the grid to be worth more than pole.


Yeah, the FIA would need to address this, because we'd have the strange situation of no one willing to run in Q3, or worse, sending out the 2nd drivers only on softs while the #1s go out on hards. This would play into Alonso's hands since the other teams would likely rotate who gets stuck with the softs.

In any event, I don't think the degradation will be that bad when the tyres are being used in their proper temperature window.


#2072 pup

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 19:30

Which makes McLaren testing strategy off long distance work most strange, they did very few low fuel runs, or with Perez and Button have they given up fighting for pole before the seasons even started?

Spending any great amount of time testing low-fuel runs would mean that they aren't confident about making it out of Q2, which is the only time on a race weekend that low-fuel comes into play.

#2073 WitnessX

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 19:45

Just thinking about McLaren potential front-end problems...could we see the return of the snow plough for Oz?

I doubt they have enough "turn-around" time for that. (Analyse/Design/Prototype/wind tunnel/build/transport.)

But I have not seen anything yet which leads me to believe that they have any problems as such with the aerodynamic, according to the sector times in Barcelona it was very strong in the first sector (the "aero" test sector), where it was losing out was more sector 2 (brake/accelerate) and sector 3 (tight bits - if you pardon the expression). The sector 2/3 can be explained by heavier car. My analysis of the sector times leads me to believe that the car (on the quickest laps) was not optimised for the (Barcelona) circuit.
http://www.auto-moto...rk-6742689.html


#2074 femi

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 20:13

Where is Andy when you need him, assuming he is still at Mclaren.

#2075 crbassassin

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 20:45

Where is Andy when you need him, assuming he is still at Mclaren.


Could he be Paddy Lowe?

#2076 Seanspeed

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 21:19

Where is Andy when you need him, assuming he is still at Mclaren.

Posted like 2 days ago.

#2077 Rinehart

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:12

I think there is a lot of gamesmanship being spouted by various drivers and engineers. You don't want to be doing the fastest time in testing or you get labelled as favourites - a la Mercedes. Mclaren were in all sorts of trouble in 2011 testing but chucked on a development in Melbourne and were at least reasonable. Last year they kept it it to themselves and were fastest. Not that anyone said this, but if Mclaren were happy with points it would mean they had gone from fastest to 5th/6th fastest car over the winter and whilst I accept the car is a bit of a revolution, I can't believe they would have chucked away such an advantage over teams like Sauber and Williams. If they really thought this they'd have been panicking by now with gallons of flow vis and admittance of a "flaw in the car".

I'm sure they're in the mix. If there is a surprise, it will be that they are super fast, not super slow.

#2078 bauss

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 09:21

Spending any great amount of time testing low-fuel runs would mean that they aren't confident about making it out of Q2, which is the only time on a race weekend that low-fuel comes into play.


eh, what now :drunk:

#2079 WitnessX

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 10:39

I think there is a lot of gamesmanship being spouted by various drivers and engineers. You don't want to be doing the fastest time in testing or you get labelled as favourites - a la Mercedes. Mclaren were in all sorts of trouble in 2011 testing but chucked on a development in Melbourne and were at least reasonable. Last year they kept it it to themselves and were fastest. Not that anyone said this, but if Mclaren were happy with points it would mean they had gone from fastest to 5th/6th fastest car over the winter and whilst I accept the car is a bit of a revolution, I can't believe they would have chucked away such an advantage over teams like Sauber and Williams. If they really thought this they'd have been panicking by now with gallons of flow vis and admittance of a "flaw in the car".

I'm sure they're in the mix. If there is a surprise, it will be that they are super fast, not super slow.

I don't think it is just gamesmanship.

Apart from Brazil and Hockenheim last year the teams have not yet run with these tyres at the right temperatures and on the "correct" surfaces... and last years tests were done with last years cars (obviously). They possibly have an educated idea but don't actually know how the car will perform on the new tyres, nor do they know how the competition will.

After the tyre shock of last year, I think they are genuinely cautious. Melbourne will be a guessing game - in effect another testing session which will give them clues on which direction the development should go.

The quote from JB is interesting:
"I don't think at the moment we are the quickest, not around Barcelona anyway..."

He would not be saying that if there wasn't a chance of it being the quickest car... and he has experienced a varied selection of cars in his career.

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#2080 mclarennut

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 14:30

Not much talk about the swingometer this build up to the 2013 season, so I will restart it off with 7/10 good but hoprfully it will swing a lot higher after a few races.

It seems really quite here the pass few weeks, looking at other seasons and the McLaren page would be buzzing.

I know Lewis is gone and I had a real hard time with that, I been a Lewis fan from when he was a small lad but I was a McLaren fan when I was a small lad, so I stuck with them and did not follow Lewis like many others did, racers come and go.

I believe McLaren is in with a real chance this year for both titles, the car was amazing in Brazil and I do not think for one moment that McLaren has built a dog, the car looked good from day at testing but has had teething problems but no more or less than any other team, and as all fanboys know McLaren are the best at solving problems.

I for one can not wait till the first race, hopefully we will have many updates that will sort out the steering problems.

I do not think the tyres will be a problem, as Button said in Brazil when it testing them that they suited his smooth driving (not in them words) when other was moaning.

Would be nice for a 1/2 again in Q3 but I would settle for a 1/3 and button for a win AGAIN :)

Edited by mclarennut, 11 March 2013 - 14:33.


#2081 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:01

Calm down mates.The car is an evolution and McLaren should be learn about new pull-rod. Only this.

Button´s time in first test at Jerez, was incredible for a lot people with green track that time was amazing. This tell us that "the 28" is fast out the box.

I´m relatively optimistic about our season start in Oz, is the best place for Jenson!!!! and weather ATM says 50% rain!!! It´s a crazy!

I bet for a solid season start, and step by step upgrade our car, wich i think has a lot room of improvement.

It´s obvious an 1-2 in Oz would be incredible.

Keep the faith!!! :up: :up: :up:


#2082 Owen

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:14

'McLaren needed to take risks'
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/102633.html

#2083 Mc_Silver

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:19

'McLaren needed to take risks'
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/102633.html


I came to here sharing this news! lol :)

I hope we did not shoot ourselves in the foot with this risky approach. I expect big step forwards from the Spanish Gp onwards. Let's see. It would be a shame to finish 2012 having quickest car and start 2013 having 4th or 5th quickest car :well:

Edited by Mc_Silver, 11 March 2013 - 15:40.


#2084 Owen

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 15:29

I came to here sharing this news! lol :)

I hope we did not shout ourselves in the foot with this risky approach. I expect big step forwards from the Spanish Gp onwards. Let's see. It would be a shame to finish 2012 having quickest car and start 2013 having 4th or 5th quickest car :well:

Well, we'll know how far behind we are soon. Having said that, I would hope we can steadily move forward thereafter. Tortoise and hare style!  ;)

#2085 showtime

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 16:18

The F1 Times ‏@F1Times
Tag Heuer will have a greater presence on the McLaren cars after extending its sponsor deal. Logo on the rear-wing throughout 2013.


#2086 Mc_Silver

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 16:43

The F1 Times ‏@F1Times
Tag Heuer will have a greater presence on the McLaren cars after extending its sponsor deal. Logo on the rear-wing throughout 2013.


It'll be nice to see Tag Heuer logo on the car :up:

#2087 slmk

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 17:08

It was time they took off the ridiculous "Tooned". Good for McLaren.

#2088 mclarennut

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 19:14

A wet race in Melbourne would not be a terrible thing for us, Button looked good in the wet and a few strange results could help McLaren in the first race of the season.

http://www.weatherzo...ourne/melbourne

#2089 John10c

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 19:18

It'll be nice to see Tag Heuer logo on the car :up:

It's already on the rear wing.

http://www.formule1....362311781.2.jpg

#2090 chumma

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 21:54

It's already on the rear wing.

http://www.formule1....362311781.2.jpg

This...so if by rear wing they mean rear wing endplate then it will remain same as testing, I hope they are on the rear wing itself though. McLaren is looking quite skinny for sponsors lately, no Aigo anymore on the monocoque, Sap bailed I think, I thought we were to expect more sponsors before Melbourne? Or was that another team..?

#2091 Owen

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 22:17

This...so if by rear wing they mean rear wing endplate then it will remain same as testing, I hope they are on the rear wing itself though. McLaren is looking quite skinny for sponsors lately, no Aigo anymore on the monocoque, Sap bailed I think, I thought we were to expect more sponsors before Melbourne? Or was that another team..?

That was Lotus.

#2092 GlenP

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 22:25

At least as significant as the car having pullrod front susp. is the high chassis, which they lack experience of aerodynamically. I know it won't be a popular remark, but I think they should have done this last year. The McLaren was obviously really good at times last year, but who knows - with a high bulkhead it could have been clearly ahead more of the time.

#2093 BigCHrome

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 23:33

The F1 Times ‏@F1Times
Tag Heuer will have a greater presence on the McLaren cars after extending its sponsor deal. Logo on the rear-wing throughout 2013.


This might be the first positive thing Whitmarsh has done since becoming TP.

At least as significant as the car having pullrod front susp. is the high chassis, which they lack experience of aerodynamically. I know it won't be a popular remark, but I think they should have done this last year. The McLaren was obviously really good at times last year, but who knows - with a high bulkhead it could have been clearly ahead more of the time.


There is no such thing.

#2094 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 23:42

The F1 Times ‏@F1Times
Tag Heuer will have a greater presence on the McLaren cars after extending its sponsor deal. Logo on the rear-wing throughout 2013.


Isnt TAG owner also shareholder in McLaren Group?

#2095 SmokeScreen

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 23:44

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21741052


Whitmarsh added that he spoke last week to former technical director Paddy Lowe, who is on gardening leave before joining Mercedes next year, and will do so again on his return from Australia with the view of continuing to use his expertise this season.
He said: "The beauty is that there are quite big areas of this year's regulations which are completely not applicable going forward so I would hope we will get him involved in some of those challenges."


Discounting PR statements it looks like McLaren WILL miss PL afterall. Those comments are not the best endorsement for the start of TG's directorship either considering he is supposed to have been involved in the car in his previous capacity. (Perhaps Whitmarsh should have kept this part to himself, hopefully' they all' will also be a bit more gracious/respectful about PL's reasons for leaving)...

So which challenges could Paddy Lowe assist in - in terms of it not being relevant to 2014?
1. push rod?
2. higher chassis??
3. Tyres & Temp???
4. Rear Suspension????
all the above

#2096 Anonymous

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 00:18

Isnt TAG owner also shareholder in McLaren Group?


25% Mansour Ojjeh (TAG Group)
25% Ron Dennis
50% Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company

#2097 jjcale

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:10

25% Mansour Ojjeh (TAG Group)
25% Ron Dennis
50% Bahrain Mumtalakat Holding Company


This is my other big problem with today's Macca ....

#2098 teejay

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:21

Id rather it 50% owned by them than no team or floundering down the back like Williams.

#2099 Timstr11

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:26

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21741052




Discounting PR statements it looks like McLaren WILL miss PL afterall. Those comments are not the best endorsement for the start of TG's directorship either considering he is supposed to have been involved in the car in his previous capacity. (Perhaps Whitmarsh should have kept this part to himself, hopefully' they all' will also be a bit more gracious/respectful about PL's reasons for leaving)...

Surely this is more about freeing up Tim Goss for the 2014 project more than anything.

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#2100 bogi

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 08:55

Isnt TAG owner also shareholder in McLaren Group?



TAG is but TAG Heuer parent company is LVMH Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton S.A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAG_Heuer