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McLaren MP4-28


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#3101 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:19

Is the Worst start of season that I remember.
MP4-8, MP4-18,MP4-19,MP4-21 weren´t paceseeters cars. Only MP4-21 didn´t win any race in 2006.
Team did an real mistake, the car seems a crap, undriveable, and lack a lot DF.

Only i say a word. FAITH.

This car is a big MISTAKE, but McLaren have resources to update and fix serious problems in this MP4-28.

I´m really sad, McLaren is a great part in my life since i live, but i will never leave my team.

This team is same as last year won seven races and did another fast laps and pole positions.

We (McLaren) know how does a great car, never could forget it. We are history in F1.

This reasons and more could say to convince all Mclaren fans for follow giving all the support to our team. I´m sure they are in one the worst moments in a long time, but McLaren never will give up.

McLaren you´ll never walk alone.

Keep the faith.

Sad days in this forum, but the sun will rise again tomorrow

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#3102 Wouter

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:24

Is the Worst start of season that I remember.
MP4-8, MP4-18,MP4-19,MP4-21 weren´t paceseeters cars. Only MP4-21 didn´t win any race in 2006.

I don't know why the Mp4-8 gets targeted, that was a great car considering it had to use a measly Ford customer engine yet Senna won 5 races with it, including the phenomenal Donington win. Hakkinen made his debut in it and promptly got a podium. It does not at all belong with the -18 and -19, while the -10 and -24(original spec) OTOH do.

The -21 failed to win a race, but it wasn't terrible and does not belong with the very bad cars either. Scored several poles and 2nd places, should have won on pace at places like Monaco (reliability) and Hungary (collision).


#3103 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:28

Exactly.
I know that the first race was a depressing affair for all us McLaren fans, but we need to remember it's just the first race. If they can get to the bottom of the problem quickly, then it's game on. Races are unpredictable some times and few strokes of good luck during the opening rounds while they figure things out could buy them some time. Anything can happen. I'm not about to give up on them. Not because of this and certainly not this early. No way.


And you shouldn't give up on them mate(of course you wouldn't), this is McLaren we're talking about. I as a Ferrari fan feel like MaCa will get on top of their problem/s rather quickly. After last season I completely understand all the doom & gloom in here but is the F2012 not evidence enough that starting from behind is not always a death sentence? They'll get it sorted.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 17 March 2013 - 23:28.


#3104 DanardiF1

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:28

Is the Worst start of season that I remember.
MP4-8, MP4-18,MP4-19,MP4-21 weren´t paceseeters cars. Only MP4-21 didn´t win any race in 2006.
Team did an real mistake, the car seems a crap, undriveable, and lack a lot DF.

Only i say a word. FAITH.

This car is a big MISTAKE, but McLaren have resources to update and fix serious problems in this MP4-28.

I´m really sad, McLaren is a great part in my life since i live, but i will never leave my team.

This team is same as last year won seven races and did another fast laps and pole positions.

We (McLaren) know how does a great car, never could forget it. We are history in F1.

This reasons and more could say to convince all Mclaren fans for follow giving all the support to our team. I´m sure they are in one the worst moments in a long time, but McLaren never will give up.

McLaren you´ll never walk alone.

Keep the faith.

Sad days in this forum, but the sun will rise again tomorrow


I'd definitely say that the 2009 -24 was the worst McLaren I've seen in my 20+ years of F1 following. Lewis and Heikki were busting a gut to get that thing into 15th/16th places in qualifying at times. At other times the car's deficiencies were masked by the progress McLaren and Mercedes had made with their KERS (at places like Bahrain where Lewis did well). It took until mid-season to get any sort of competitive package together, and even then Heikki struggled to get as much out of it as Lewis did.

#3105 Insane111

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:40

Thinking back to the 24, that actually did surprisingly well at the flyaways (as Danardi says, probably largely KERS related). It only turned into a real dog on returning to europe, the nadir being at Silverstone. I'm hoping it's not that bad again. That car was genuinely flawed and they admitted as much before the season had even started. This thing's clearly getting good numbers in the wind tunnel & on sims, and they have a very good performance benchmark to check it against in the 27 (something that couldn't be said for the 24). They seem as confused by the current performance level as anyone.

#3106 Timstr11

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:12

Oh no. Gary Anderson and his obsession with front wing elements.
He thinks that is where Mclaren's problems are:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21821853

#3107 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:41

Well I, and some others raised a point a while ago, if the car is an all new concept, why can last years front wing seem to be run with it? Doesn't make sense. I always expected them to introduce a completely new concept of wing, not just a small tweak. It would not surprise me if they are losing out massively here, as that is the first contact with clean air and it affects the rest of the car. They scaled the wing down last season cos they had too much front grip didn't they? Its simply compared to other wings out there...

#3108 chrcol

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:45

They wanted a car with a large scope for development. It was a risk they took which may still pay off if they can get to the root of their problems quickly.


yeah make the car bad to start with then it can be developed further to catch up ;)

#3109 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:55

Oh no. Gary Anderson and his obsession with front wing elements.
He thinks that is where Mclaren's problems are:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21821853

Well. The car has obvious problems, that's for sure. What caught my eye was how he described the aggressive coke bottle (I almost typed coc... James May style) could be detrimental to them. Working really well in optimum conditions but if the car yaws in mid corner the air may go where they need it not to go ever, ie under the car and stop working. Thinking about it - the tend to run the car REALLY low and REALLY stiff, so I think the old geezer has got something of a point there.

#3110 David1976

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:50

I think, despite all the nagitive headlines on the MP4-28, than McLaren will solve the puzzle within 3-4 races and have a competitive/winning race car.

The biggest question for me is whether that will be too late to compete for any championship unless their prime rivals suffer serious reliability issues. And McLaren were not the most reliable team last year...

#3111 chumma

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:07

Not too much slow stuff at Sepang so we may look better, but I think the other teams will look better too.

#3112 maverick69

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:01

Jeez, what a bunch of girls, not even finished with the years first fp sessions and we get this pathetic display.

Staying with the low chassis was not an option, they had to change.

Both RB and Ferrari were nowhere in FP and Q here last year and their seasons went ok.

I guarantee that things will look a lot better after the race.


Lol

#3113 race addicted

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:11

Not too much slow stuff at Sepang so we may look better, but I think the other teams will look better too.


I thought the car wouldn't take so well to the quicker direction-changes the Sepang-track has, but the general consencus seems to be that Malaysia will be better for them.... We will see.
Good these races are back-to-back!

#3114 chhatra

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:24

I thought the car wouldn't take so well to the quicker direction-changes the Sepang-track has, but the general consencus seems to be that Malaysia will be better for them.... We will see.
Good these races are back-to-back!


I think Jenson mentioned the car should be better as it a smoother circuit and the ride issues should be better. I hope this is the case as it would mean the next three races would be better as they are all smooth Tilkedromes.

Hopefully they get a better understanding of the car and then bring a significant upgrade to Spain.

Until then we really need the top guys outscoring each other every race.

Kimi showed us how important the tyres are in the race, he started 7th but managed his tyres brilliantly to take an easy win. With Jenson and Perez, McLaren can do the same.

#3115 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:28

anyone knows wich is the real problem in the car? :confused:

I hope will be better in Malaysia.

Keep The Faith!

#3116 Timstr11

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:30

A smoother surface means they can run the car lower.
So the car's aero performance is better at lower ride heights.

#3117 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:34

A smoother surface means they can run the car lower.
So the car's aero performance is better at lower ride heights.


Yes. Like Kimi in Aus..... :confused:

#3118 SkorbiF1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:34

The car isn't THAT bad. With the pace Perez had in the latter half of the race, they should have been fighting for a podium.

Both drivers just had a terrible weekend.

#3119 maverick69

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:37

Mr Anderson on the situation:

"They have gone to a three-element front wing. But because that has large-section elements, it means when the wing stalls, such as during braking or in high-speed corners, there is a bigger percentage stall. That gives inconsistent balance.
McLaren also have a very aggressive coke-bottle shape at the rear. You have to be very careful with that because while it will produce more overall downforce in optimum conditions, it is very easy for the airflow to separate when the car is in yaw mid-corner.
That means the car loses downforce because instead of the coke-bottle being able to drag the airflow over the top of the floor and make the floor work more efficiently, one side gives up and the airflow goes under the floor."

"Every year, I compile statistics detailing the relative performance of the cars, using the fastest lap time set over a weekend by each driver.
The fastest car gives you a baseline, from which you can compare the performance of the rest.
Using that formula, only three teams have gone forward compared to last year. Mercedes have improved the most - 0.375% - followed by Red Bull (0.359%) and Lotus (0.131%).
Everyone else has gone backwards to one degree or another - Marussia by 0.224%, Ferrari by 0.236%, then Force India, Toro Rosso, Caterham, Sauber and Williams. McLaren - who were the baseline last year - have lost the most at 2.602%."


Ouch!

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/21821853

Edited by maverick69, 18 March 2013 - 11:38.


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#3120 rhukkas

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:40

If I remember correctly, it was only at the tenth race at Hungary they finally got the thing to work.
McLaren should be aiming for championships, not race victories. Three more of these races and the championship is out of reach.

Unforgivable, really..


McLaren had KERS on that car which helped their situation. Without it wins would have been unlikely.

#3121 Zoony

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:45

I learned elsewhere today that, "it was revealed that a suspension component had been fitted incorrectly at the first pre-season test, a mistake which gave a false impression of the MP4-28's pace".

I must have missed it at the time but... if incorrectly fitting the bit worked then, why can't they just incorrectly fit the same bit again?

Can anyone please enlighten me as to what the bit was, and why it cannot be reverted to first test configuration?

#3122 saberskunk

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:47

I learned elsewhere today that, "it was revealed that a suspension component had been fitted incorrectly at the first pre-season test, a mistake which gave a false impression of the MP4-28's pace".

I must have missed it at the time but... if incorrectly fitting the bit worked then, why can't they just incorrectly fit the same bit again?

Can anyone please enlighten me as to what the bit was, and why it cannot be reverted to first test configuration?


It was a suspension component that when incorrectly fitted lowered the car, presumably lower than the regs allow.

#3123 race addicted

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:48

It was a set of wishbones mounted upside-down, but the problem is they cannot run the car with the low ride-height used at the Jerez-test as the car would scrub the ground while on heavy fuel.

#3124 SkorbiF1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:48

I learned elsewhere today that, "it was revealed that a suspension component had been fitted incorrectly at the first pre-season test, a mistake which gave a false impression of the MP4-28's pace".

I must have missed it at the time but... if incorrectly fitting the bit worked then, why can't they just incorrectly fit the same bit again?

Can anyone please enlighten me as to what the bit was, and why it cannot be reverted to first test configuration?

I believe that when the component was incorrectly placed, it made the ride height too low for the rules. therefore illegal.

#3125 Zoony

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:48

It was a suspension component that when incorrectly fitted lowered the car, presumably lower than the regs allow.


Ahhh... thanks.


#3126 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:59

It was a suspension component that when incorrectly fitted lowered the car, presumably lower than the regs allow.



It was a set of wishbones mounted upside-down, but the problem is they cannot run the car with the low ride-height used at the Jerez-test as the car would scrub the ground while on heavy fuel.


I believe that when the component was incorrectly placed, it made the ride height too low for the rules. therefore illegal.


Thanks for info mates. I hope we can low ride height in smooth track like Malaysia.

Keep The Faith


#3127 peroa

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:03

A smoother surface means they can run the car lower.
So the car's aero performance is better at lower ride heights.

Yeah, but so will everyone else.

#3128 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:04

Yes. Like Kimi in Aus..... :confused:

Kimi didn't drive a McLaren in Aus... or what were you getting at?

#3129 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:09

Yeah, but so will everyone else.

Yeah, but their car is the one that is peaky and needing to be run extra low and extra stiff. Gary Anderson explains it quite well, especially if you combine the info with tidbits about the car that Whitmarsh has uttered.

#3130 Lazy

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:14

28 not lacking DF

However, following analysis by its engineers of where the 2013 car is lacking, McLaren is convinced that sticking to the current model is the best way forward.

Its stance has been sealed by the fact its data suggests the car is not lacking downforce, but its operating window is too 'peaky'.




#3131 maverick69

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:14

Yeah, but their car is the one that is peaky and needing to be run extra low and extra stiff. Gary Anderson explains it quite well, especially if you combine the info with tidbits about the car that Whitmarsh has uttered.


This reminds me of the 25' and the final iteration of the Diffuser of Justice. It was the largest DDD on the grid - and produced the highest peak downforce by some margin. However, the compromises that had to be made in order to access that downforce were quite significant. Ironically, the car that won the WCC that year had one of the smallest DDDs on the grid.........

Edited by maverick69, 18 March 2013 - 12:14.


#3132 Owen

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:45

This reminds me of the 25' and the final iteration of the Diffuser of Justice. It was the largest DDD on the grid - and produced the highest peak downforce by some margin. However, the compromises that had to be made in order to access that downforce were quite significant. Ironically, the car that won the WCC that year had one of the smallest DDDs on the grid.........

Totally agree. Clearly in trying to sacrifice everything for maximum downforce, the set up window has become smaller and smaller. Factor that into the inaccesibility of the suspension and this car now sounds like a nightmare to work with.
I'm fairly confident things will improve (how could they not!) but the timescale is the thing.

#3133 WitnessX

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:47

Yeah, but so will everyone else.

I don't think there is any illusion that its suddenly becoming a winning car, but at least they should be able to use the standard set-up they worked out in Barcelona and get some solid work done (between the rain showers), instead of having to come up with an "emergency patch" which could only be tested for a couple of laps before qualifying.

#3134 bonjon1979a

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:11

It was a set of wishbones mounted upside-down, but the problem is they cannot run the car with the low ride-height used at the Jerez-test as the car would scrub the ground while on heavy fuel.

Erm, isn't it more worrying that they're making a mistake like this? Is it any wonder they've made more fundamental errors with the car.

#3135 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:12

Kimi didn't drive a McLaren in Aus... or what were you getting at?


I refered at Kimi's car ran very low, even finishing the race.Car touch the track a lot times.
Apologies if this post is offTopic :)

#3136 Massa_f1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:14

If the MP4-27 is not back in China they can kiss this season goodbye its that simple. Don't get me wrong I want them to do well as it would be good to see JB up there, but they appear to be hopeless. Introducing a new car was foolish

#3137 button_sw

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:18

I also noticed that Kimi's Lotus was sparking alot over the bumps, something you don't see much in F1 anymore.

They are clearly running low ride height and it looks like the 28 needs to be low to perform so it could be linked to the pullrod suspension.

#3138 race addicted

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:20

Erm, isn't it more worrying that they're making a mistake like this? Is it any wonder they've made more fundamental errors with the car.


I don't get your point? More worrying than what?
It's been mentioned tens of times, how strange and surprising it is, that such a mistake was possible.

#3139 JRizzle86

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:28

If the MP4-27 is not back in China they can kiss this season goodbye its that simple. Don't get me wrong I want them to do well as it would be good to see JB up there, but they appear to be hopeless. Introducing a new car was foolish


There is no good reason to divert resources away from the current car to last years. This isn't like 2003 with the MP4-17D being called in to replace the 18. Those sort of resources don't exist anymore. Any resources diverted to try and bring the 27 to 2013 spec will only delay the efforts to being the 28 up to speed. The 28 is a new design they don't fully understand and they need to nail down the problems now and find the solutions.

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#3140 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:29

I also noticed that Kimi's Lotus was sparking alot over the bumps, something you don't see much in F1 anymore.

They are clearly running low ride height and it looks like the 28 needs to be low to perform so it could be linked to the pullrod suspension.


Totally agree :yawnface:

#3141 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:34

I refered at Kimi's car ran very low, even finishing the race.Car touch the track a lot times.
Apologies if this post is offTopic :)


I also noticed that Kimi's Lotus was sparking alot over the bumps, something you don't see much in F1 anymore.

They are clearly running low ride height and it looks like the 28 needs to be low to perform so it could be linked to the pullrod suspension.


What Lotus apparently did was run soft. McLaren apparently needs to be run both low and stiff as it is really sensitive to both ride height and also roll and yaw. When one side of the car is lower than the other air might get under the floor and undo all the downforce they get from the uberfancy coke bottle shape - that is what I gathered from Gary Anderson's piece and also from Whitmarsh's interview. Running low and rigid meant that the car was bottoming out and jumping around, tyres losing contact with the track and going off. Rising the ride height probably made the car perform mechanically a bit better while losing heaps of aerodynamic performance. The car was apparently nice to drive, had good balance and was simply just slow. Lotus having a wider operating window was apparently able to both cope mechanically with the bumps retaining traction and maintaining contact with the road for the tyres (it had to as it had excellent tyre usage) and also was reasonably sound aerodynamically.

I remember back in the day of 1998 about early Jordan woes Damon Hill said that having a slow nice car is basically the worst thing you can have. If it is bad to drive then you can at least fix these problems you can probably also improve speed a bit. If the car feels good to drive then you have something fundamentally wrong in the car. That MW said there are no quick solutions to me says there is something fundamentally wrong in the design of the car.

Edit: pullrod suspension and need to be run low to perform doesn't make much sense. Need to be running low so that the air doesn't get under the car and lift it up at random times makes much more sense.

Edited by Force Ten, 18 March 2013 - 13:38.


#3142 Massa_f1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:40

There is no good reason to divert resources away from the current car to last years. This isn't like 2003 with the MP4-17D being called in to replace the 18. Those sort of resources don't exist anymore. Any resources diverted to try and bring the 27 to 2013 spec will only delay the efforts to being the 28 up to speed. The 28 is a new design they don't fully understand and they need to nail down the problems now and find the solutions.


I still don't see the harm in taking the MP4-27 to china and run it back to back with the 28 on the Friday.

#3143 race addicted

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:42

But they can't bring three cars to a GP.

#3144 WitnessX

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:50

I still don't see the harm in taking the MP4-27 to china and run it back to back with the 28 on the Friday.

There is a thread specifically for the MP4-27 possibility, I would suggest going there:

Link: Should McLaren bring back the MP4-27? [split]

Edited by WitnessX, 18 March 2013 - 13:50.


#3145 GlenP

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:56

The fact that the front susp pulls and not pushes is not really relevant to the issues being discussed here, I believe. Assuming that the linkages inside the chassis allow for similar action of the suspension that is (similar mechanical advantage/range of movement/consistency through the range etc). The difference is having the suspension mounting points higher than 2012, and everything that follows from that. Even taking that into account, I think it is unlikely to be a problem. In other words, it isn't the pullrod.

Gary A's guesses sound more likely - aero. They are using very stiff suspension to allow for the aero being too sensitive to conditions such as yaw. Melbourne is bumpy - problem exaggerated. Melbourne had very gusty wind - again, problem exaggerated. Plus stiff set-up is not so good for either tyre wear or traction. Considering the nature of the Melbourne track (braking and traction v important & not so many high speed corners), and the tyre choice (extremely soft) this one adverse aero characteristic then manifests itself in lots of negative ways.

#3146 Force Ten

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:57

The fact that the front susp pulls and not pushes is not really relevant to the issues being discussed here, I believe. Assuming that the linkages inside the chassis allow for similar action of the suspension that is (similar mechanical advantage/range of movement/consistency through the range etc). The difference is having the suspension mounting points higher than 2012, and everything that follows from that. Even taking that into account, I think it is unlikely to be a problem. In other words, it isn't the pullrod.

Gary A's guesses sound more likely - aero. They are using very stiff suspension to allow for the aero being too sensitive to conditions such as yaw. Melbourne is bumpy - problem exaggerated. Melbourne had very gusty wind - again, problem exaggerated. Plus stiff set-up is not so good for either tyre wear or traction. Considering the nature of the Melbourne track (braking and traction v important & not so many high speed corners), and the tyre choice (extremely soft) this one adverse aero characteristic then manifests itself in lots of negative ways.

Yes, basically what I said 3 posts upwards :) Good to see someone agreeing with me.

#3147 GlenP

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:05

Sorry F Ten - dd not have time to read the thread properly.

#3148 TcAn

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:24

Last year they had had "operational window" and they were unable to "climb through that window in" sometimes, but now they have operational window leaf and we must be ready for the spectacular show, oh lord...

Sorry for my English.

#3149 JRizzle86

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 15:38

Last year they had had "operational window" and they were unable to "climb through that window in" sometimes, but now they have operational window leaf and we must be ready for the spectacular show, oh lord...

Sorry for my English.


I'll be kind, the translation isn't great.

#3150 Lemans

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 16:14

28 not lacking DF

However, following analysis by its engineers of where the 2013 car is lacking, McLaren is convinced that sticking to the current model is the best way forward.

Its stance has been sealed by the fact its data suggests the car is not lacking downforce, but its operating window is too 'peaky'.


I might be wrong but this seems like new information. Now the question is how difficult or long will it be before they fix that issue.