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McLaren MP4-28


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#3201 senna da silva

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 17:50

Considering Brazil 2012 I'm genuinely surprised that McLaren find themselves in this position with the 28. I'm sure they'll turn it around as they have great Engineering resources but they really can't make mistakes like the tyre calls in Qualifying. Poor Sergio must've been thinking WTF.
Malaysia is always a bit of a crap shoot so who knows what'll happen but points should be on the cards for both drivers.

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#3202 MercPower

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 19:30

Good luck to the Macca boys for the rest of the season, i can't post on here anymore so like i said in the Mercedes thread, it's been good getting involved with everyone.

Keep the faith and all that......

:wave:

#3203 onewingedangel

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 19:32

I don't think it's accurate to compare race laps when the cars largely race to a delta - the Red Bull and Lotus may have driven further from their maximum pace than McLaren to manage tyres.

#3204 Wouter

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:09

I have a hard time believing this .... I hate to harp on about this but the Macca is simply a better car than the Force India - it is obvious. Nobody in their wildest dreams predicted Force India being faster/better than Macca. Not even the most negative person....

In Melbourne, the Force India was clearly the better car. Both FI's finished well ahead of both MP4-28's.

And why not? The Force India is a decent (upper) midfield car and the MP4-28 seems to simply be a failure, which only works if all the conditions are just right. In early to mid 2009, lots of midfield cars simply didn't have the deficiencies of the MP4-24, and thus were faster. In early 2012, Massa was absolutely nowhere in the F2012 either. Past results or a grand name is no guarantee for results in the presents.

McLaren might have a hard time scoring points in Malaysia, unless it is a very dramatic race (weather, pile-ups,...).

#3205 olliek88

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:14

I don't think it's accurate to compare race laps when the cars largely race to a delta - the Red Bull and Lotus may have driven further from their maximum pace than McLaren to manage tyres.


No, they don't. That well and truly belongs in the myth thread.

#3206 ERICTOPF1

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:31

I find if really strange that JB is hoping for a wet or a mixed race.

I believe that McLaren should pray with both their hands and knees for a dry weekend.
A dry weekend means about 260 dry laps for the car. This means tons of data with full fuel load laps to qualifying laps.

In the state that the team is with the -28 I think these data are far more important than a couple of extra points due to pure lack which you are not sure you will have.
In fact Perez has not yet made a complete on the limit dry lap with the car.
The only good thing for McLaren is that the two first races are a "street" circuit and a "pure track" one so they are forced to use these two GPs as extra tests in order to sort their tons of problems out.

McLaren is desperate for dry running in order to have a chance for the rest of the year!

Edited by ERICTOPF1, 19 March 2013 - 20:32.


#3207 tkulla

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:44

I find if really strange that JB is hoping for a wet or a mixed race.

I believe that McLaren should pray with both their hands and knees for a dry weekend.
A dry weekend means about 260 dry laps for the car. This means tons of data with full fuel load laps to qualifying laps.

In the state that the team is with the -28 I think these data are far more important than a couple of extra points due to pure lack which you are not sure you will have.
In fact Perez has not yet made a complete on the limit dry lap with the car.
The only good thing for McLaren is that the two first races are a "street" circuit and a "pure track" one so they are forced to use these two GPs as extra tests in order to sort their tons of problems out.

McLaren is desperate for dry running in order to have a chance for the rest of the year!


Unless they already know they need to replace certain parts in order to get the car working properly and won't have them until China. In that case doing the rain dance makes perfect sense.

Edited by tkulla, 19 March 2013 - 20:45.


#3208 mclarensmps

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:50

I just am not getting the feeling that they are quite sure where to pinpoint the issue

#3209 pdac

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:57

I find if really strange that JB is hoping for a wet or a mixed race.

I believe that McLaren should pray with both their hands and knees for a dry weekend.
A dry weekend means about 260 dry laps for the car. This means tons of data with full fuel load laps to qualifying laps.

In the state that the team is with the -28 I think these data are far more important than a couple of extra points due to pure lack which you are not sure you will have.
In fact Perez has not yet made a complete on the limit dry lap with the car.
The only good thing for McLaren is that the two first races are a "street" circuit and a "pure track" one so they are forced to use these two GPs as extra tests in order to sort their tons of problems out.

McLaren is desperate for dry running in order to have a chance for the rest of the year!



Unless they already know they need to replace certain parts in order to get the car working properly and won't have them until China. In that case doing the rain dance makes perfect sense.


I don't think you can ever have enough data - ERICTOPF1 is correct, they need to have a good dry weekend.

#3210 peroa

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:03

Unless they already know they need to replace certain parts in order to get the car working properly and won't have them until China. In that case doing the rain dance makes perfect sense.

How would they know? They've never driven the car on a proper F1 circuit and proper temperatures.
A cold Barcelona wasn't of much help.

#3211 eronrules

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:05

I don't think it's accurate to compare race laps when the cars largely race to a delta - the Red Bull and Lotus may have driven further from their maximum pace than McLaren to manage tyres.


FFS, there is no lap delta, if u wanna save tires, u drive carefully, do not run into dirty air and minimize wheelspin. and in the process the lap times become slow, it's same bridgestones,pirellis, michelins whatever tires u can find. some drivers are good at it, some cars are good at it, but it's the combo that manages to extract time out of it.

last race, both lotus cars were same, yet, kimi did fastest lap on 20+ lap old tires while romain was almost lapped due to poor set up and running behing JB for most of the race. and kimi's pace was dictated by how he chose to use his tires, not by running a set time lap, which fluctuated from high 32's to low 29s

#3212 tkulla

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:14

I don't think you can ever have enough data - ERICTOPF1 is correct, they need to have a good dry weekend.


I agree if the data is valid. If not it's just noise. Clearly there was a validity problem somewhere in this design process (garbage in, garbage out).

And looking back I think they knew at the first Barcelona test there was a big problem. It's not unrealistic to think they were able to see that the aero wasn't working as expected and whether that was due to the suspension settings. If they were able to identify a problem then the question becomes whether the potential solution requires a modification to the car (parts) or a change of settings (setup). I'm actually hoping for the former because finding that "magic" setup through trial and error (since the obviously can't simulate what's happening yet) is going to take far too long.

Therefore under this theory they are waiting for some sort of part that may help fix the problem, so gathering data in what will soon be the "old" configuration isn't going to be terribly helpful.

Of course, if they have no idea how to fix it they just need to do as many experiments as possible on Friday in the hopes that they can figure out how to model the car properly in the simulator or just luck into a good setup.

#3213 tkulla

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:16

How would they know? They've never driven the car on a proper F1 circuit and proper temperatures.
A cold Barcelona wasn't of much help.


Barcelona wasn't helpful in learning how to use the tyres since they were out of their operating temperatures. It certainly was useful in evaluating the aero. All those sensors and flo-vis don't care too much about temperature (and whatever effect low temps has can surely be accounted for mathematically).

#3214 Rocket73

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:31

It was however quite useful for working out which way up to fit the suspension...

#3215 benzine

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:38

i have to say the fight at the business end of the grid is incomplete without at least one mclaren fighting for it , it is like something is missing

#3216 mclarensmps

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 21:47

It was however quite useful for working out which way up to fit the suspension...


:lol:. I still can't come to grips with this :(

#3217 BillBald

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:38

I don't think you can ever have enough data - ERICTOPF1 is correct, they need to have a good dry weekend.


What they need is a dry Friday and changeable weather on Saturday and especially Sunday.

If Australian race had been run mainly on inters, they could well have scored some decent points.

2 or 3 dry FPs will provide plenty of data, what they need is to score points, so they don't drop out of title races while the car is being fixed.



#3218 jjcale

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:59

In Melbourne, the Force India was clearly the better car. Both FI's finished well ahead of both MP4-28's.

....yet no one saw this coming before FP1.

And why not? The Force India is a decent (upper) midfield car and the MP4-28 seems to simply be a failure, which only works if all the conditions are just right. In early to mid 2009, lots of midfield cars simply didn't have the deficiencies of the MP4-24, and thus were faster. In early 2012, Massa was absolutely nowhere in the F2012 either. Past results or a grand name is no guarantee for results in the presents.

McLaren might have a hard time scoring points in Malaysia, unless it is a very dramatic race (weather, pile-ups,...).

Do we actually the bit in bold is fact at this point?

#3219 Grundle

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:01

What they need is a dry Friday and changeable weather on Saturday and especially Sunday.

If Australian race had been run mainly on inters, they could well have scored some decent points.

2 or 3 dry FPs will provide plenty of data, what they need is to score points, so they don't drop out of title races while the car is being fixed.

This isn't a Ferrari 2012 situation. Soundbites coming from Whitmarsh and Button are very despondent. This car is fundamentally flawed.

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#3220 TurboF1

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:06

A second a lap slower means that they came damn close to being lapped. For Mclaren to be a minute down on the others having been at the front last year is a ludicrous situation to be in. Can't quite believe it myself.

I honestly can't wrap my head around it either. How, How, HOW can you go from the outright quickest car at the end of the year, in a period of stable rules, to a lower midfield car. I can't remember the last time this happened. I've seen championship winning teams end up nowhere when there's been a significant change in certain variables (Think Renault switching from Michelin to Bridgstone & Alonso in 2007, went from winning back to back champs to not winning all year, then the whole Brawn GP saga/fall of McLaren + Ferrari from 08 into 09) but I can't recall the last time a team has screwed up a car this much under stable rules. How the 28 turned out to be this much of a failure well and truly beggars belief. I've been a supporter of McLaren for a long time now, too long in fact. I think i'm on the verge of admitting they simply arent as good as I've believed. That plus I have zero faith in the abilities of the drivers to drag the car to places it typically shouldnt be when it's in poor shape means I fear the first quarter of this season is a wash. By the time they'll have worked out the kinks in this car, it'll be ANOTHER barren year with no championships to show for it. I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see it. Hopefully the 28s potential will be unlocked ( :rolleyes: - I'm getting really tired of this word when it comes to McLaren BTW) and they snag a win or 2 before the year is out.

#3221 tvianna

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:20

I dont't think any other team has the capability McLaren has to develop a car during the season. What they did in 2009 was astonishing.
But now Paddy Lowe is on gardening leave...

I believe they are suffering to understand and get to grips with the pull-rod front suspension. Ferrari was in this exactly same position a year ago. In both cases the drivers are complaining the car is too unpredictable. And even worse to McLaren, they don't have a Fernando Alonso. Button is a great driver when he gets a car that behaves exactly the way he likes, but he fades in a situation like this. I'm sure Hamilton would be much faster in this car.

#3222 Seanspeed

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 04:57

I dont't think any other team has the capability McLaren has to develop a car during the season. What they did in 2009 was astonishing.
But now Paddy Lowe is on gardening leave...

I believe they are suffering to understand and get to grips with the pull-rod front suspension. Ferrari was in this exactly same position a year ago. In both cases the drivers are complaining the car is too unpredictable. And even worse to McLaren, they don't have a Fernando Alonso. Button is a great driver when he gets a car that behaves exactly the way he likes, but he fades in a situation like this. I'm sure Hamilton would be much faster in this car.

Its been said about 200 times, but Ferrari had no problems with the pull-rod front suspension. The situations are similar because they both found themselves with an aggressive design that didn't work out, but not because of the same exact faults of the car. In that respect, the two situations are fairly different. Ferrari went into Australia with knowledge of what was wrong and knew upfront that it would take them til the European season to fix it. Mclaren seem a little less confident of knowing how to solve the problem going by their comments so far. By their own words, it might take a while to get to the bottom of things.

#3223 BillBald

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 13:56

This isn't a Ferrari 2012 situation. Soundbites coming from Whitmarsh and Button are very despondent. This car is fundamentally flawed.


If it's that bad, a switch back to the 27 is needed.

Either way, at the moment they need rain for points.

Edited by BillBald, 20 March 2013 - 13:56.


#3224 midgrid

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 14:01

I honestly can't wrap my head around it either. How, How, HOW can you go from the outright quickest car at the end of the year, in a period of stable rules, to a lower midfield car. I can't remember the last time this happened.


Ferrari from 1979 to 1980?


#3225 Massa

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 14:19

Williams, 1997 to 1998.

EDIT : no, it's not a valid comparaison because there has been a huge change from 1997 and 1998.

Anyway, Mclaren will bounce back very quickly. If the car was flawed, i really don't think this car could be fast. But, even if the setup was not optimum, this car show it can be fast ( Jerez times ).

Edited by Massa, 20 March 2013 - 14:22.


#3226 BillBald

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 14:40

Is McLaren really 2 secs off the pace? Actually not.

I happened to review the lap times from Australian Grand Prix and compare lap times of Vettel & Kimi with that of Button. While both Red Bull and Lotus are comfortably ahead of McLaren, what comes out of lap times is less than 2 secs gap between them. In fact surprisingly the gap is less than a sec.

To arrive at average difference in lap times, I have not considered following laps:
- Lap 1 of the race
- In and Out lap during pit stop
- Last 5 laps of the race (Button seemed to be cruising after Grosjean's mistake)

Average difference between Vettel and Button's lap time - 0.942 sec
Average difference between Kimi and Button's lap time - 0.882 sec
(Mind you - while overall Vettel had a quicker car, Kimi managed his tires well and hence did one stop less to win the race)


In the images I have highlighted 2 odd times in 1.35 secs and 1 odd time in 1.36 secs which Button completed on laps 2, 3 (was on Super soft which he used & destroyed in qualifying) and 29. If we were to exclude these 3 odd times then the average comes to following:

Average difference between Vettel and Button's lap time - 0.808 sec
Average difference between Kimi and Button's lap time - 0.778 sec

Not all seems to be lost. We could have a better race this weekend.


Good work.

I think the position is actually a little better. Jenson was effectively running a 2-stop race because he only did 4 laps in his first stint, plus he was very uncertain about the car's tyre usage, so he might actually have been more conservative than he needed to be. Also, he spent the entire race driving defensively, as he had Grosjean's faster Lotus behind him, also Webber for a while.

Vettel was held up by Sutil of course, but Jenson spent a similar length of time caught behind Ricciardo. In both cases they weren't really racing these other cars, but they did lose some time.



#3227 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 14:46

Yesterday i saw lap by lap of both cars.

Im sure ATM we are Slower than paceseeters but IIRC our Qualy was awful.
Sergio was to track in slick and Jenson gone out the box so soon in Q3.Im sure better qualy had possible.

In race the car is slower but less than 1.5 sec.

I think when mclaren fix a bit problems the car we can get in points sure.

In Europa will update the car (i think will be in massive form) to try get a podium even if things are good fight for wins.

Im ever a optimistic person.

Im never lost the faith in McLaren.

Keep the faith mates!

Roll on Malaysia!

#3228 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 14:46

Yesterday i saw lap by lap of both cars.

Im sure ATM we are Slower than paceseeters but IIRC our Qualy was awful.
Sergio was to track in slick and Jenson gone out the box so soon in Q3.Im sure better qualy was possible.

In race the car is slower but less than 1.5 sec.

I think when mclaren fix a bit problems the car we can get in points sure.

In Europa will update the car (i think will be in massive form) to try get a podium even if things are good fight for wins.

Im ever a optimistic person.

Im never lost the faith in McLaren.

Keep the faith mates!

Roll on Malaysia!

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 20 March 2013 - 14:49.


#3229 Dalton007

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 15:26

I think we will go better at Malaysia. :) If we were, on average 8 tenths down on a bumpy track, I think we'll be a little closer on a smoother track.

#3230 Mc_Silver

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 16:50

I think we will go better at Malaysia. :) If we were, on average 8 tenths down on a bumpy track, I think we'll be a little closer on a smoother track.


Let's hope so. I don't know why but I feel that the main problem lies on the front wing. I look at Red Bull,Ferrari,Mercedes front wings they all have 5-6 elements front wings but we have 3 elements front wing. Front suspensions are not the only problem IMO. We will know the details about the problems in the coming weeks. They really need to work day and night to bring McLaren where they belong to.

#3231 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 16:58

Let's hope so. I don't know why but I feel that the main problem lies on the front wing. I look at Red Bull,Ferrari,Mercedes front wings they all have 5-6 elements front wings but we have 3 elements front wing. Front suspensions are not the only problem IMO. We will know the details about the problems in the coming weeks. They really need to work day and night to bring McLaren where they belong to.


Gary Anderson thinks the same.

#3232 Force Ten

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 17:33

Gary Anderson thinks the same.

Well, fixing a front wing should be easier relatively speaking than fixing the whole body. Gary Anderson also thought that the aggressive bodywork might be culprit here. Probably the combination of front wing and underside/rear bodywork working together.

And pretty much nobody except forum members have suggested that the problem is pullrod.

#3233 BillBald

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 17:56

Well, fixing a front wing should be easier relatively speaking than fixing the whole body. Gary Anderson also thought that the aggressive bodywork might be culprit here. Probably the combination of front wing and underside/rear bodywork working together.

And pretty much nobody except forum members have suggested that the problem is pullrod.


Pullrod is a problem because it stops them from making rapid setup changes, causing too much running to be lost.

What is unusual about the front suspension is the extreme angle of the wishbones, which will cause the tyres to scrub across the track more than would be the case with any other car.

The front wing appears to be similar to the wing used at the end of last year, but maybe I'm not looking closely enough.



#3234 Force Ten

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 18:44

Pullrod is a problem because it stops them from making rapid setup changes, causing too much running to be lost.

What is unusual about the front suspension is the extreme angle of the wishbones, which will cause the tyres to scrub across the track more than would be the case with any other car.

The front wing appears to be similar to the wing used at the end of last year, but maybe I'm not looking closely enough.

Pullrod is indeed a problem in a sense that it makes setup changes slower. But only here are you seeing suggestions that it is the sole culprit why the car is slow.

#3235 MP422

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 18:56

The car is slow, The setup changes are slow, the pitstops are slow, and the drivers are slow.... I think Mclaren is doomed for this season. It's gonna look like 2006 all over again. :cry:

#3236 BillBald

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:03

Pullrod is indeed a problem in a sense that it makes setup changes slower. But only here are you seeing suggestions that it is the sole culprit why the car is slow.


It's a major change to the front end, which involves pullrod as well as higher chassis and different geometry. Referring to it as 'pullrod front end' is a kind of abbreviation, which may cause some confusion.

If they had just replaced pushrod with pullrod, while keeping the geometry the same, it might have been easier for them to understand the car's behaviour, but they wouldn't have got the supposed aero benefit of the almost horizontal pullrod. The higher chassis needed somewhat modified geometry, but they made it more extreme than it is on the Ferrari.

McLaren seem to be all at sea, which I think is because they haven't yet learned how to model the car's behaviour with this new front end. It's certainly not just about the front wing (although if it was, I'd happily take that).



#3237 Peter Perfect

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:03

Pullrod is indeed a problem in a sense that it makes setup changes slower. But only here are you seeing suggestions that it is the sole culprit why the car is slow.

Not that it's the reason why the MP4-28 is slow, but the recent information coming out of Williams as to why their early pace in testing went downhill in Oz goes to show how aero changes can completely change the character of the car and make it unpredictable. Have there been any indications that the coke-bottle packaging at the rear of the car may be partly to blame aside from Gary Anderson?

#3238 Force Ten

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:11

Not that it's the reason why the MP4-28 is slow, but the recent information coming out of Williams as to why their early pace in testing went downhill in Oz goes to show how aero changes can completely change the character of the car and make it unpredictable. Have there been any indications that the coke-bottle packaging at the rear of the car may be partly to blame aside from Gary Anderson?

Again, there haven't. But pullrod and aero changes are not the same thing. I agree that radical aero changes can make the car slow, not understanding them can make the car slow and time lost setting up because of pullrod might do some cumulative damage in the sense that it takes more to dig themselves out the hole they have found themselves in. What I do not agree with is that if they had made everything about the car exactly the same except substituting pullrod with a pushrod and changed the wishbone angles the car would have been instantly 1,5 seconds faster.

It reminds me of a saying: "Complex and complicated problems almost always have simple to understand, simple to implement and easy WRONG answers"

#3239 Wouter

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:00

....yet no one saw this coming before FP1.

Can happen. The performance of the Ferrari F2004 at the very last winter test of 2004, at Imola, also was a very unpleasant surprise for the other front runners (the result of Bridgestone introducing the tyres of which it had been testing only components before).

Do we actually the bit in bold is fact at this point?

Maybe not a fact set in stone, but Button's story about Jerez says as much. With those settings, the car was fast, but Button said explicitly they could not be used in races.


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#3240 Wouter

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:05

The car is slow, The setup changes are slow, the pitstops are slow, and the drivers are slow.... I think Mclaren is doomed for this season. It's gonna look like 2006 all over again. :cry:

2006 wasn't that bad - Raikkonen took 3 poles and 6 podiums (really should have won the Monaco GP, too) and Montoya and De La Rosa added a second place each. The present car is still far from reaching for that kind of results.

I also think 2012 can hardly be called a "lean" year, with no fewer than 7 victories, more than in many a championship-winning year. Sure, winning the championship is even better but it's not "fighting for scraps" either. That's what Button and Perez were doing in Melbourne...

#3241 WitnessX

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:06

Again, there haven't. But pullrod and aero changes are not the same thing. I agree that radical aero changes can make the car slow, not understanding them can make the car slow and time lost setting up because of pullrod might do some cumulative damage in the sense that it takes more to dig themselves out the hole they have found themselves in. What I do not agree with is that if they had made everything about the car exactly the same except substituting pullrod with a pushrod and changed the wishbone angles the car would have been instantly 1,5 seconds faster.

It reminds me of a saying: "Complex and complicated problems almost always have simple to understand, simple to implement and easy WRONG answers"

* Warning * following most likely to be rubbish.

One of the things I noticed is the "anti dive" angle of the wishbones is quite high. I'm not sure if its directly related to "castor angle" or whether the castor angle can be adjusted independently.
The symptoms it has curiously appear to match that of a large "castor angle" on the front (from research),

the positives are :
- Better patch connect during cornering (good on high speed corners).

The negatives are :
- Understeer (too much castor)
- On turn-in the front wheels raise, hence must raise the chassis.

It could be on the slower corners that on turn-in the chassis raises and hence raises the ride height causing a certain detachment of downforce.

Edited by WitnessX, 20 March 2013 - 20:09.


#3242 Force Ten

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:15

It could be on the slower corners that on turn-in the chassis raises and hence raises the ride height causing a certain detachment of downforce.

It again makes sense with the context GA provided that the aggressive coke bottle shape might make it easier for the air to do unwanted things, especially to get under the floor of the car when the car rolls in corners. Which again reminds me ot McLaren's tendency to run the car unbelievably stiff.

Edit: the context being that the car gets pig slow the minute the ride height gets a bit raised and if one side is higher than another the air does god knows what when it passes the sides of the car. Could be that it's aerodynamics AND suspension. Could also be, that the particulars of one are affected by the other.

Edited by Force Ten, 20 March 2013 - 20:18.


#3243 Fox1

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:45

Not that it's the reason why the MP4-28 is slow, but the recent information coming out of Williams as to why their early pace in testing went downhill in Oz goes to show how aero changes can completely change the character of the car and make it unpredictable. Have there been any indications that the coke-bottle packaging at the rear of the car may be partly to blame aside from Gary Anderson?

Is this an aero problem or mechanical problem?. It seems like they're at sea with their mechanical setup and that is screwing up their aero.

#3244 Peter Perfect

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:58

Is this an aero problem or mechanical problem?. It seems like they're at sea with their mechanical setup and that is screwing up their aero.

You could argue it was either. Maybe it's the aggressive nature of the aero that means the drivers have no warning that they're about to lose a ton of downforce when the car angle changes, or maybe it's the mechanical side that isn't keeping the car steady in the first place. Hopefully we'll learn more this weekend.

Edited by Peter Perfect, 20 March 2013 - 21:19.


#3245 pingu666

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:25

tyres dont grip well in the air, but its all linked in together, suspension setup and design is dominated by aero concerns :/


#3246 MP422

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:27

2006 wasn't that bad - Raikkonen took 3 poles and 6 podiums (really should have won the Monaco GP, too) and Montoya and De La Rosa added a second place each. The present car is still far from reaching for that kind of results.

I also think 2012 can hardly be called a "lean" year, with no fewer than 7 victories, more than in many a championship-winning year. Sure, winning the championship is even better but it's not "fighting for scraps" either. That's what Button and Perez were doing in Melbourne...



I think Mclaren can get a handle on it. Podiums and poles (ok well.. maybe not poles :p) are still a very likely possibility down the road. It's still a mighty team, they have shot themselves in the foot before. They can fix the MP4-28 IMO, it's just a matter of when will they. It's hard to know if it will be at the cost of 29's development. I hope they don't perform worse then 2006.

#3247 mclarensmps

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:48

I look at this car, and I look back at the MP4-18, and I breathe a sigh of relief. At least it isn't THAT

#3248 Force Ten

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:54

I look at this car, and I look back at the MP4-18, and I breathe a sigh of relief. At least it isn't THAT

...then again, they never did race the 18 if I remember correctly... They do race this piece of engineering excellence.

#3249 Owen

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:59

Some thoughts
http://somersf1.blog...my-initial.html

#3250 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:12

Some thoughts
http://somersf1.blog...my-initial.html


Pretty much covers the main issues.