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McLaren MP4-28


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#3251 blackmme

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:45

...then again, they never did race the 18 if I remember correctly... They do race this piece of engineering excellence.


The 18 did race. The 19 really was the 18 at least according to Adrian Newey in Motorsport a couple of months back.
Interestingly Newey says that it MW's decision to do that rather than build a new car and he overuled Adrian and that he (Newey) should have quite the team there and then.

Regards Mike



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#3252 f1rules

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:39

i quess if there is one thing mclaren is good at, its being methodical, and they will need it. I hope they just start one place and try all out. By that i mean, bring over-strength dimensioned front suspension arms, for make sure its not that, bring an insane strengthened front chassis to make sure its not flex, the weight penalty I'm sure will not matter, its all about finding the root, put tons of messeauring devices and buckets of flow vis, just find what the **** is turning this car of

#3253 GlenP

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:46

That somersf1 piece is good.

I don't believe it is anything flexing, or chassis stiffness etc - those things are simple to model in the computer and it just is not conceivable to me that they have cocked up on that. It will be aero, without question - as the somersf1 article explains, front and rear wings both seem to have big potential for development, plus they can put the turning vanes back under the front once they have finished mucking about in that area. Then there's the exhaust and its integration with the body airflow. Plus understanding the tyres better… they have enough to think about.

#3254 Owen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:47

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106211

http://www.formula1....13/3/14381.html

Sounds good. Hopefully progress (however small) is made. :up:

Edited by Owen, 21 March 2013 - 12:55.


#3255 maverick69

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:07

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106211

http://www.formula1....13/3/14381.html

Sounds good. Hopefully progress (however small) is made. :up:


I get a feeling they'll end up "flicking a switch" and gaining a chunk of performance a la 2009 and the start of 2011 rather than incremental performance increases.

Of course - this would not mean that the car isn't fundamentally flawed (2009), or that they haven't made a major brainfart in going for revolution after having such a brilliant car last year....... but that wouldn't be the McLaren we all know and love would it?

Edited by maverick69, 21 March 2013 - 13:08.


#3256 GlenP

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:12

I think the question could just as easily be: should they have built this car last year and by now be running an evolution of that? Much like Ferrari. I know they got good results last year, but that's the nature of F1 - you have to somehow get the best of everything.

#3257 BillBald

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:34

I think the question could just as easily be: should they have built this car last year and by now be running an evolution of that? Much like Ferrari. I know they got good results last year, but that's the nature of F1 - you have to somehow get the best of everything.


No need to build this car last year, they found a different way of messing up. :)

What they should have done this year, is raise the nose a little bit if it gives more downforce, not go all radical.



#3258 GlenP

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:40

No need to build this car last year, they found a different way of messing up. :)

What they should have done this year, is raise the nose a little bit if it gives more downforce, not go all radical.

They did that last year. They raised the chassis this year, not just the pointy bit. Other teams have had the max height chassis for some time and McLaren are late to that particular party.

#3259 Force Ten

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:43

I think the question could just as easily be: should they have built this car last year and by now be running an evolution of that? Much like Ferrari. I know they got good results last year, but that's the nature of F1 - you have to somehow get the best of everything.

No they couldn't have - remember who is ultimately the team boss. Not EVER would I have believe that Ron would have let the ugly stepped nose fly. Yes, I fundamentally believe, that 27 could never have had a high nose just because of that - Ron and his sense of aestetics. People in power are PRECISELY that weird.

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#3260 Hacklerf

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:46

Just a rumor but i think the old car will be in China

#3261 GlenP

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:47

A rumor that you are starting?

Don't believe it.

#3262 BillBald

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:08

They did that last year. They raised the chassis this year, not just the pointy bit. Other teams have had the max height chassis for some time and McLaren are late to that particular party.


OK, I meant the chassis when I said the nose.

McLaren are late to that party, but it didn't really harm them, and the party is nearly over.




#3263 Owen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:08

Just a rumor but i think the old car will be in China

yet to see anything that suggests that though. :confused:

#3264 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:16

Just a rumor but i think the old car will be in China


Are you sure about that?

Speaking in the Sepang paddock this afternoon, Jenson Button said that they would stick with the Plan A and work with the 2013 design. It meant that they would be able to “take more risks” than their rivals because they are chasing results.

“It’s better to stick to the plan and develop and improve what we have,” said Button, who has been in this situation before with BAR and Honda in his earlier career.



#3265 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:22

Just a rumor but i think the old car will be in China


Just a rumour but i don't think the old car will be in China

#3266 Hacklerf

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:27

I cant give a source, or a website, its just what i heard, if the cars more than 1.5 off the pace this weekend then i would say its very likely true

#3267 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:39

I cant give a source, or a website, its just what i heard, if the cars more than 1.5 off the pace this weekend then i would say its very likely true


Was it through the grapevine?

Edited by JRizzle86, 21 March 2013 - 14:40.


#3268 BillBald

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:51

Clearly they will be saying they are pressing on with the new car, right up to the moment when they decide to dump it.

It depends on the progress they make, although there's an element of not losing face which might affect the decision.

I'm inclined to think that it might be just one detail they got wrong, although building a car on which it's hard to change the setup seems like a poor decision to me. There's a touch of hubris there 'Why would we need to make setup changes when our simulation is so good?'.






#3269 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 15:01

I cant give a source, or a website, its just what i heard, if the cars more than 1.5 off the pace this weekend then i would say its very likely true


From what is required to bring the 27 to to 2012 spec including all crash testing it has pretty much been written off as a concept.

QUOTE

Sporting director Sam Michael told reporters on Thursday that previously unscheduled developments for the car have arrived in Malaysia for experimental testing.
"All our energy is going into the current car and understanding it," he said.
Pulling out the winning 2012 car might seem like an easy and obvious solution, given the fact that most teams on the grid simply evolved their existing cars for the new season anyway.
But Anthony Rowlinson, editor of F1 Racing magazine, said it's not quite that simple.
"They would have to re-crash test the MP4-27, have a new front wing that's compliant with the new technical regs, have a new underfloor that's compliant with the new technical regs.
"That in itself is a big job and then they'd arrive, say in Spain for the Spanish GP, with a car they hadn't tested, they hadn't run, so they'd probably be in no better a situation than they are now," he explained.

http://www.worldcarf...flawed-2013-car

Edited by JRizzle86, 21 March 2013 - 15:07.


#3270 10e10

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:18

Asked whether there was a sense of panic about the team, Button said: "I wouldn't use that word, but we're working hard to get back to the front because this is not where we expected to be and it's definitely not where we should be."
And he said a title challenge was already unlikely.
"If Kimi [Raikkonen, who won the first race for Lotus] doesn't finish in the points again and the next guy that wins doesn't finish in the points again there might be an opportunity," he said.
"If Kimi goes and wins the next four races, he's going to have a 90-odd point lead over me so it's going to be tricky, but the good news is there are a lot of teams who are reasonably competitive and they are going to take points off each other.
"Lotus and Kimi did a great job in the race. A lot of people will have learnt from what they've done and [Malaysia] is a very different circuit with the conditions so I think you'll see a different winner here."


Another year to "unlock potential"!

Unbelievable that we won't challenge for the title. I mean, to win a race this season would be great, considering the car we have, but it's truly sad that a team like ours can't challenge for the championship after one simple race! Long gone are the 50th anniversary parties and prospects.

#3271 Obi Offiah

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:25

Some thoughts
http://somersf1.blog...my-initial.html

Thanks for the link Owen. Good read.

#3272 SunnyENTP

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 16:52

Just a rumor but i think the old car will be in China



Why would they do something so silly?

#3273 Lemans

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 17:56

Ok, so unless I'm mistaken it seems they know where/what some of the problems are? That's good news.





#3274 Owen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 18:00

Comments from James Allen;

It is a step forward in design, but somewhere there’s something in the geometry which isn’t working.

I was sure it was different (in the launch period) and the aero was advanced, according to the engineers I listen to.

But they’ve got something wrong in the geometry somewhere that means it doesn’t ride or balance well

No, there is a serious problem with it. But they will fix it


http://www.jamesalle...-with-2013-car/

#3275 Owen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 18:01

Suspension geometry.... :confused:

#3276 charly0418

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 18:01

I'm not gonna raise my hopes on something Sam Michael said. I'll wait for a dry practice

#3277 Lemans

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 18:05

Comments from James Allen;

It is a step forward in design, but somewhere there’s something in the geometry which isn’t working.

I was sure it was different (in the launch period) and the aero was advanced, according to the engineers I listen to.

But they’ve got something wrong in the geometry somewhere that means it doesn’t ride or balance well

No, there is a serious problem with it. But they will fix it


http://www.jamesalle...-with-2013-car/


Shit! Just when things were starting to sound better.
If this is true, then they will certainly need a new tub to make changes to the geometry.



#3278 Owen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 18:10

Shit! Just when things were starting to sound better.
If this is true, then they will certainly need a new tub to make changes to the geometry.

Would explain the 'things will improve but not necessarily soon' comments that have been made.

#3279 BillBald

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:11

Shit! Just when things were starting to sound better.
If this is true, then they will certainly need a new tub to make changes to the geometry.


It depends how adjustable the current design is, how far it allows them to change it.

Surely they wouldn't go so radical without giving themselves the possibility to make big changes?



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#3280 Neomaster121

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:17

With rain forecast i guess mclaren have another opportunity to hide how slow their car is

#3281 BillBald

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:26

With rain forecast i guess mclaren have another opportunity to hide how slow their car is


And show how good their drivers are?



#3282 Neomaster121

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:33

And show how good their drivers are?


i never denied how good button is in the rain perez seems to be good too judging from his performance last year

plus mclaren have always been quite good in the rain so could just be it's trait continuing

#3283 Peter Perfect

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:35

With rain forecast i guess mclaren have another opportunity to hide how slow their car is

True. I haven't seen enough of Perez in the wet but Button is probably the best on the grid in changeable conditions IMHO so there could be some points up for grabs. Unfortunately the MP4-28 doesn't look great on full wets (related to the increased ride height?) so it'll depend on how wet it gets.

The downside to wet weather is that they won't get much of a chance to try out the updates they've got (standard and more radical apparently) so I'm not sure what I'm hoping for at the moment.

#3284 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:43

I hope a little step ahead this weekend.i want dry free practices to testing pieces and bits.Car needs more testing to fix the car.
Also i wanna see how much is the gap vs paceseeters.

Won't easy win this WDC but Keep the faith :)

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 21 March 2013 - 19:48.


#3285 BillBald

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:44

The downside to wet weather is that they won't get much of a chance to try out the updates they've got (standard and more radical apparently) so I'm not sure what I'm hoping for at the moment.


No question, it's got to be dry FPs and wet race. So we'll probably get the opposite.



#3286 argiriano

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:51

Let's hope so. I don't know why but I feel that the main problem lies on the front wing. I look at Red Bull,Ferrari,Mercedes front wings they all have 5-6 elements front wings but we have 3 elements front wing. Front suspensions are not the only problem IMO. We will know the details about the problems in the coming weeks. They really need to work day and night to bring McLaren where they belong to.

The same wing that let the 27 to be on top of the field?! I doubt that.
I think the problem should be someware on the newer parts which is high nose and extreme front suspension and their interaction with the rest of the car. I mean high shasis and front suspension could lead to aero disturbance in fast corners and excessive roll in slower corners for example or something similar that is hard to figure and then fix.

Whatever that is, the real problem McLaren have this season is that so called "the bigger developent path" is already heavily compromised because of this unknown problems. Just look at the Lotus - they already had new front wing and new expirimental exhaust for the second race.
I am so pissed McLaren once again outsmart themselves... A race win or two in the latest part of the season will be the best I could hope for this year.

#3287 SophieB

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 19:56

Personally, I'd be hoping for dry. No point hiding the problems, get a dry race and get a really good look at the car to get more data to help fix the problems. Besides, truly great at driving in changeable conditions JB may be, actual wet races are something else. It rained a lot during last year's race at Sepang and he was struggling hugely with his tyres even before he ran into the back of Karthikeyan so it's not like rain is any promise of better luck.

#3288 bennyo

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 20:10

I dont't think any other team has the capability McLaren has to develop a car during the season. What they did in 2009 was astonishing.


I've seen a few people mention this now, and i remember supping some of the Kool Aid back in 2009.

But, for me looking back it doesn't show that ability to develop. I posted this in the greatest F1 myths thread:

"McLaren are best at developing in season - look at 2009 for an example."

They did make huge improvements to the performance of the car, eventually. They did upgrade lots of parts, and I believe they do have a good manufacturing capability, but the improvements only came once they'd worked out what was the problem (IIRC it was the 'wash' from the front wing).

2010-2012 did not show this great in season development, they had a decent car (great car in 2012) but the gap between them, Red Bull and Ferrari contracted and expanded throughout the season. Tellingly, especially in 2010 and 2011 they weren't quick enough at the end of the season.

This year, they will probably discover what it is the cause of their problems and it will 'unlock' the potential in the car - perhaps even by a large amount, but this is only because at the moment they can't work out what it is. So it won't really be conscious development, more like panic based development - try everything until we find out what makes it work, and given their situation, I don't blame them!



#3289 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 22:39

Shit! Just when things were starting to sound better.
If this is true, then they will certainly need a new tub to make changes to the geometry.


To be brutally honest this is progress from Australia, they are finding the issues which is better than them saying they didn't know what the issues were. Now they need to find the relevant solutions.

#3290 FastnLoud

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:18

I think Mclaren may shock alot of people this weekend.

I believe some issues have been resolved, regarding the setup with the suspension.

Quali may not be great great but race pace should be a lot better

Trust me :up: :)

#3291 Mc_Silver

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:21

If they really have found the exact problem with the car then it should be good news then. We can expect some huge improvements when the European races begin.

#3292 Absulute

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:26

I'm not expecting much, I have to say.

I'll be ecstatic if I'm wrong, though.

#3293 Lemans

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:27

To be brutally honest this is progress from Australia, they are finding the issues which is better than them saying they didn't know what the issues were. Now they need to find the relevant solutions.


Agreed. It's certainly progress. I was just hoping for an easier fix then possibly redesigning the monocoque. Of course, there is a chance the story of a geometry change is false.
I think we all just want a quick recovery.



#3294 bennyo

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:40

The 18 did race. The 19 really was the 18 at least according to Adrian Newey in Motorsport a couple of months back.
Interestingly Newey says that it MW's decision to do that rather than build a new car and he overuled Adrian and that he (Newey) should have quite the team there and then.

Regards Mike


I realise that is probably from a printed article, but do you have a link to this anywhere - I would be interested in reading that.

#3295 MirNyet

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:44

Comments from James Allen;

It is a step forward in design, but somewhere there’s something in the geometry which isn’t working.

I was sure it was different (in the launch period) and the aero was advanced, according to the engineers I listen to.

But they’ve got something wrong in the geometry somewhere that means it doesn’t ride or balance well

No, there is a serious problem with it. But they will fix it


http://www.jamesalle...-with-2013-car/


Well, there's a surprise :)


#3296 Grundle

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:59

By the time they fix the problem they will be behind the development curve.

It does contradict Sam Michaels "we will look everywhere". That doesn't suggest a pinpointed problem.

A geometry issue serious because they have designed aero around a false base!
When they fix the geometry they will find their aero is out of sync.


#3297 Nobody

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:06

I also think they've found the problem.

Remember what you tell the media is usually one step behind where you actually are.

#3298 BigCHrome

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:29

I bet it's going to be one of those cars that just clicks at a few tracks and looks like a total rocketship, then there's going to be a few other times where they're barely going to get into Q3.

#3299 Grundle

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:35

I bet it's going to be one of those cars that just clicks at a few tracks and looks like a total rocketship, then there's going to be a few other times where they're barely going to get into Q3.

I suppose it could be like force indias 09 car......more likely not. It will need some special qualities coupled with glaring deficiencies.


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#3300 Nobody

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:48

this is cool from the McLaren FB page:

"It's a hot and humid Sepang International Circuit as today's practice sessions get underway. Click here to follow the live radio chat, timing information and telemetry on McLaren LIVE"

EN: http://www.mclaren.c...rmula1/live/en/
ES: http://www.mclaren.c...rmula1/live/es/