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McLaren MP4-28


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#3651 BillBald

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:14

Yep, it looks like Checo was on a set of tyres that may've done more laps in qualifying.


Surely like Jenson he only used 1 set of primes in quali?

This was his first stint on primes in the race.





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#3652 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:17

Surely like Jenson he only used 1 set of primes in quali?

This was his first stint on primes in the race.


Good point. Hard to explain then really. Was Perez behind someone/ fighting for position for a long period off time losing downforce could've caused his tyres to go off quicker?

#3653 pup

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:18

Just curious - this report that McLaren failed to account for the altered tire shape of the new tires sounds awfully familiar. Didn't McLaren make this exact same mistake a number of year back? :confused:

#3654 BillBald

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:22

so you agree with me, JB's was more than comfortable making a 3 stopper work. (not including the intermediates stint at the start)


It was a 2-stopper if you don't include the stint on inters. And I'm pretty sure he would have made it work if he'd been defending a points position rather than going flat out for most of the stint.

For me, it's just a question of whether he could have gone fast enough to be ahead of the Mercs while looking after the tyres. Don't forget the Mercs would have had to race him, that might have caused them to be in more trouble at the end.



#3655 eddie66

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:28

It was a 2-stopper if you don't include the stint on inters. And I'm pretty sure he would have made it work if he'd been defending a points position rather than going flat out for most of the stint.

For me, it's just a question of whether he could have gone fast enough to be ahead of the Mercs while looking after the tyres. Don't forget the Mercs would have had to race him, that might have caused them to be in more trouble at the end.


yep you right 2 stopper, I meant to say including the stint on inters.


#3656 Force Ten

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:32

Good point. Hard to explain then really. Was Perez behind someone/ fighting for position for a long period off time losing downforce could've caused his tyres to go off quicker?

Maybe he is simply NOT THAT GOOD in saving tyres yet, with that particular car and these particular conditions? It is not totally out of the realm of possibility that for the moment Button simply has performed better?

#3657 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:34

It was a 2-stopper if you don't include the stint on inters. And I'm pretty sure he would have made it work if he'd been defending a points position rather than going flat out for most of the stint.

For me, it's just a question of whether he could have gone fast enough to be ahead of the Mercs while looking after the tyres. Don't forget the Mercs would have had to race him, that might have caused them to be in more trouble at the end.


Please, I'm not trying to be obstinate but I really don't see where everyone is getting this idea that he was going 'flat out' for most of the final stint in a way that was different to any of the other cars or indeed the rest of the race for the Mclaren.

Look at the times here:

http://184.106.145.7..... Analysis.pdf

After pitting Jenson did two laps in the mid 40's then five laps in the 41's before going into the 42's which was the pace of everyone else. If he had gone slower at the start of the stint the tyres would've lasted to the end but the pace wouldn't've been quick enough to trouble the mercs.

#3658 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:39

Cheers guys. I really admired they way the engineers tried to pump Jenson up yesterday telling him, hey let's have some fun. Keep your heads up.

McLaren feels progress was made, but admits still lots of work to do
[i]
McLaren believes it has made some progress with its troublesome MP4-28, but it is under no illusions there is still plenty of work to do.

Although McLaren came away from the Malaysian Grand Prix with just a ninth place for Sergio Perez, it was encouraged by the fact Jenson Button raced competitively in the top five before his afternoon was wrecked by a pitstop blunder.


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106381

Edited by Buttoneer, 25 March 2013 - 19:11.
Please do not quote entire articles


#3659 Mc_Silver

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:46

Cheers guys. I really admired they way the engineers tried to pump Jenson up yesterday telling him, hey let's have some fun. Keep your heads up.

McLaren feels progress was made, but admits still lots of work to do
[i]
McLaren believes it has made some progress with its troublesome MP4-28, but it is under no illusions there is still plenty of work to do.

Although McLaren came away from the Malaysian Grand Prix with just a ninth place for Sergio Perez, it was encouraged by the fact Jenson Button raced competitively in the top five before his afternoon was wrecked by a pitstop blunder.


http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106381

I hope we will close the gap to the front runners with new development parts coming in China. We are still about a second slower in terms of pure pace. If we can reduce it to half a second then we would have much greater chance to challenge podium finishes.

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#3660 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 15:59

I hope we will close the gap to the front runners with new development parts coming in China. We are still about a second slower in terms of pure pace. If we can reduce it to half a second then we would have much greater chance to challenge podium finishes.


I think a reasonable expectation is Barcelona. I'm not saying I don't think MaCa will get more competitive in the mean time, just saying a reasonable time to compete for wins I think would be in Spain. Course I could be wrong. Either way I have no doubt you guys will get there.

#3661 JRizzle86

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 16:01

I think a reasonable expectation is Barcelona. I'm not saying I don't think MaCa will get more competitive in the mean time, just saying a reasonable time to compete for wins I think would be in Spain. Course I could be wrong. Either way I have no doubt you guys will get there.


Barcelona does tend to be the game changer, if any team is able to step up to the plate from a poor start to the season then Catalunya is the place to do it.

#3662 WitnessX

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 16:04

Please, I'm not trying to be obstinate but I really don't see where everyone is getting this idea that he was going 'flat out' for most of the final stint in a way that was different to any of the other cars or indeed the rest of the race for the Mclaren.

Look at the times here:

http://184.106.145.7..... Analysis.pdf

After pitting Jenson did two laps in the mid 40's then five laps in the 41's before going into the 42's which was the pace of everyone else. If he had gone slower at the start of the stint the tyres would've lasted to the end but the pace wouldn't've been quick enough to trouble the mercs.

I try and avoid these "alternative universe" arguments. But I think the best person to know the (true) state of the tyres and how much Button was pushing and what was possible is Jenson Button:

"It's easy to say I could have been on the podium," said Button. "I'm sure people will disagree with me, but I think we had a chance to fight with Mercedes.
"We had one less pitstop to do. I don't know what might have happened, but at worst it would've been fifth and we would've fought against Mercedes."


#3663 pup

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 16:14

Of course, while McLaren are solving problems, their scheduled development program is in limbo. Let's not forget '09, when McLaren were able to claw back a great deal of pace though minor upgrades during the flyways, only to find themselves back at square one once the other teams introduced their upgrades in Spain. Sadly, I fear that if they want to salvage the season, it's almost imperative that they have the issue sorted in China so that they can get a decent package ready for Spain. Otherwise, they'll be playing catch up throughout the European season. I'm hopeful, though. It seems like they've got a handle on the problem and there's always the hope that the car does indeed have more development potential in the long run.

#3664 bonjon1979a

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 16:15

I try and avoid these "alternative universe" arguments. But I think the best person to know the (true) state of the tyres and how much Button was pushing and what was possible is Jenson Button:

"It's easy to say I could have been on the podium," said Button. "I'm sure people will disagree with me, but I think we had a chance to fight with Mercedes.
"We had one less pitstop to do. I don't know what might have happened, but at worst it would've been fifth and we would've fought against Mercedes."


What does it matter? We could debate this until we're blue in the face - on one hand Button says he could fight for the podium, on the other hand the team told Ted Kravitz that his tyre was completely bald. It's purely academic. Blunder by mclaren in the pits guaranteed zero points. Could've/should've are kind of pointless arguments. I was more drawn to the discussion because it didn't seem to me that the data matched up to poster's perception of Button's pace. Let's see what china brings - where temperatures will probably be in the mid to high teens, so another condition to judge the cars in!

It's so hard to be certain about these cars pace, the lotus looked epochs ahead in Australia, yesterday it was nowhere. Looked horrible to drive. China could suit mac perfectly and they're faster than anyone, it's anyone's guess...

#3665 BillBald

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 17:00

What does it matter? We could debate this until we're blue in the face - on one hand Button says he could fight for the podium, on the other hand the team told Ted Kravitz that his tyre was completely bald. It's purely academic. Blunder by mclaren in the pits guaranteed zero points. Could've/should've are kind of pointless arguments. I was more drawn to the discussion because it didn't seem to me that the data matched up to poster's perception of Button's pace. Let's see what china brings - where temperatures will probably be in the mid to high teens, so another condition to judge the cars in!

It's so hard to be certain about these cars pace, the lotus looked epochs ahead in Australia, yesterday it was nowhere. Looked horrible to drive. China could suit mac perfectly and they're faster than anyone, it's anyone's guess...


I'm puzzled by the story about Button's tyre being completely bald, normally with Pirellis you would expect a very big drop-off in pace before you get to that point, unless they are talking about a major flat-spot.



#3666 PNSD

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 17:16

Well, forgetting the pitstop issue I was on the edge of my seat in amazement at Button's pace.

In the dry I half expected the Ferrari and both Lotus drivers to come steaming up behind.

Button matched, and out paced an on form Massa. He then often matched the RBR's in the first two stints and again that seemed like gold to me.

I won't be expecting a podium in China, but something similar to Malaysia. Button sure is hyped for China, and it's a track he performs well at.

The other positives is that to Brundle on Friday, he said the car looked pretty comfortable through the quick 5 and 6. It's clear the 28 is actually a decent base package.

#3667 Mc_Silver

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 17:43



#3668 TC3000

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 18:13

Just curious - this report that McLaren failed to account for the altered tire shape of the new tires sounds awfully familiar. Didn't McLaren make this exact same mistake a number of year back? :confused:


I'm not sure if McL has been affected by this recently (is possible, I just dunno), but it was a quite widely discussed problem after Michelin left F1, and the Michelin teams had to change over to Bridgestone tyres in 2007.
To get a idea about the general problem (for everyone) associated with it, here some comments on the topic made at the time.

....
It's been widely reported that one of Renault's problems this year has been adapting to the different aerodynamic properties of Bridgestone's tires compared to the Michelins on which the team won two successive world titles.

Pat Symonds elaborated a little on this matter.
"It's true to say that when we first put the Bridgestone tire on our car we suffered in performance whereas some other teams suffered less and in one case maybe even--in relative terms--improved," Symonds said. "I'm certainly happy that we're using the tire well, as a tire. I'm not sure we fully understand it aerodynamically, but I think we're pretty damn close now."

Added Symonds: "It's a big, black round thing, whizzing 'round in the air and [the Bridgestone and Michelin tires] are very different shapes. The aerodynamics of a modern F1 car are incredibly subtle, as you see from the various appendages on the cars. Certainly, with Michelin we worked a lot on the aerodynamics of the tires with very, very small changes to shape, to the shoulders, and to the sidewalls to tune the tire aerodynamics in conjunction with the car aerodynamics. Now we're dealing with a differant animal."

Honda's F1 technical director Jacky Eeckelaert said his team has also struggled with this problem. "I think at the end of 2006 the two fastest cars on Michelin tires were the Renault and the Honda," Eeckelaert observed. "We were clearly in front of the McLaren the last few races of the season. Then five weeks after the last Grand Prix when we went testing with the new Bridgestone tire we had lost quite a bit of performance by switching tires. This was difficult to anticipate because the tire became available for all the teams on the same day at the end of October. The interaction of the tire with the car is a very complex thing, not just mechanically but also aerodynamically."
.....
full article


It's not only the general shape of the unloaded tyre, which has effects too, but this shouldn't be too difficult to take into account.
The finer points are how the tyre deforms under load (during braking, cornering etc.) and thereby affects all the aerodynamics downstream of it.
This is very difficult (for everyone) to measure & simulate in the windtunnel or CFD, as most of these effects don't scale well (are difficult to extrapolate).
It's worth to remember, that the windtunnel models are at 50 or 60%, as are the windtunnel tyres, and in the windtunnel the tyres are normally not subjected to deformations.
(we are not only talking about steering the front tyres, we talk about distortions of the tyre, due to stress/load)
Even if they were, they (windtunnel tyres) don't necessary deform in the same way, as the real tyre does, let alone other factors associated with scale models - Re number etc.)
If your aerodynamic devices, downstream of the front tyre, are already "on the edge" (very sensitive), a small disturbance in the flow field can be enough to "push them over the edge".

If this indeed was the problem, or part thereof, the next races will/should tell. Let's see how they go from here.

#3669 tkulla

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 18:23

What does it matter? We could debate this until we're blue in the face - on one hand Button says he could fight for the podium, on the other hand the team told Ted Kravitz that his tyre was completely bald. It's purely academic. Blunder by mclaren in the pits guaranteed zero points. Could've/should've are kind of pointless arguments. I was more drawn to the discussion because it didn't seem to me that the data matched up to poster's perception of Button's pace. Let's see what china brings - where temperatures will probably be in the mid to high teens, so another condition to judge the cars in!

It's so hard to be certain about these cars pace, the lotus looked epochs ahead in Australia, yesterday it was nowhere. Looked horrible to drive. China could suit mac perfectly and they're faster than anyone, it's anyone's guess...


Since they retired Button with the phony excuse of a "tyre vibration" (when in reality they just want a free gearbox change) they can't exactly tell Kravitz "sure, he could have driven another TEN laps on those things, can they? They have to keep up the dog and pony show.

#3670 Wingnut

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 18:57

Since they retired Button with the phony excuse of a "tyre vibration" (when in reality they just want a free gearbox change) they can't exactly tell Kravitz "sure, he could have driven another TEN laps on those things, can they? They have to keep up the dog and pony show.


Was 'tyre vibration' cited as the reason to retire him? If that really is classed as a mechanical issue, surely we'd see all teams outside the points retiring their cars? The FIA can't prove otherwise.

#3671 FastnLoud

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 21:17

Excited for China as is everyone i presume.

This car has raw speed.

#3672 john_smith

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 21:36

I'm not sure if McL has been affected by this recently (is possible, I just dunno), but it was a quite widely discussed problem after Michelin left F1, and the Michelin teams had to change over to Bridgestone tyres in 2007.
To get a idea about the general problem (for everyone) associated with it, here some comments on the topic made at the time.



It's not only the general shape of the unloaded tyre, which has effects too, but this shouldn't be too difficult to take into account.
The finer points are how the tyre deforms under load (during braking, cornering etc.) and thereby affects all the aerodynamics downstream of it.



You're right, the aero profile of a loaded tyre is hard to account for, but it's strange that only mclaren are affected so much by it.

Pitch sensitivity also seems to be a recurring problem for the team. It seems they suffer from it every time there's wholesale changes to the car's design, and it takes at least 4-5 grands prix before they get a handle on how best to manage it (not necessarily resolving it).

On the other hand, the car's pace shows there's no need to rework the 27 to bring it back.

#3673 Rocket73

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 22:13

Was this when they had the wishbone on upside down?

Looks like it's going nicely


#3674 Mc_Silver

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 22:21

Was this when they had the wishbone on upside down?

Looks like it's going nicely


Probably :D

Here is JB



#3675 paulrobs

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 23:21

Apologies if this has been said before in this thread.

I've been wondering almost since McLaren launched their car why they went for such a different car to last year. They had a good car last year and an evolution of that car would have been pretty near the front I'd have thought. I'm just wondering if they thought their only chance of a title this year was to be radical and chase more performance. I can't get this nagging feeling out of my head that they thought they needed a significant car advantage for their drivers to win on a regular basis and challenge for the titles.

#3676 ElDictatore

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 23:35

Apologies if this has been said before in this thread.

I've been wondering almost since McLaren launched their car why they went for such a different car to last year. They had a good car last year and an evolution of that car would have been pretty near the front I'd have thought. I'm just wondering if they thought their only chance of a title this year was to be radical and chase more performance. I can't get this nagging feeling out of my head that they thought they needed a significant car advantage for their drivers to win on a regular basis and challenge for the titles.


Well, Whitmarsh's words were that they wanted to have a car with a bigger development potential because development on the -27 could go to an end before the season is finished.
Considering that they most likely started the -28 mid-season when the -27 had quite a few issues, it was a reasonable decision at that time but in hindsight it basically was a wrong decision.
So being fast at the end of the season doesn't have such a big impact on the next year's car, I would say.


#3677 BillBald

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 23:48

Apologies if this has been said before in this thread.

I've been wondering almost since McLaren launched their car why they went for such a different car to last year. They had a good car last year and an evolution of that car would have been pretty near the front I'd have thought. I'm just wondering if they thought their only chance of a title this year was to be radical and chase more performance. I can't get this nagging feeling out of my head that they thought they needed a significant car advantage for their drivers to win on a regular basis and challenge for the titles.


If McLaren need a car advantage, it's not because of the drivers, it's because of the pitstops and strategy decisions.

And it was nothing to do with Lewis leaving, the decision was almost certainly taken earlier in the season.

And, yes, it has been said before, many times.

Edited by BillBald, 25 March 2013 - 23:48.


#3678 WitnessX

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:45

Was 'tyre vibration' cited as the reason to retire him? If that really is classed as a mechanical issue, surely we'd see all teams outside the points retiring their cars? The FIA can't prove otherwise.

JB:
"It (tyre) kept locking up, and it was producing such a bad vibration that I think the guys were worried that it might damage the front left suspension if I carried on,."

The advantage of a new gearbox is not only that its fresher. It gives them the opportunity to use a modified design for possible rear suspension changes or aerodynamic reasons.

#3679 chumma

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:18

JB:
"It (tyre) kept locking up, and it was producing such a bad vibration that I think the guys were worried that it might damage the front left suspension if I carried on,."

The advantage of a new gearbox is not only that its fresher. It gives them the opportunity to use a modified design for possible rear suspension changes or aerodynamic reasons.

Then only Jenson would get it, I thought gearboxes were homologated also?

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#3680 Giz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:29

Pits give Jenson a code to do a few lock ups

Lap times slow down as a result

Tyre develops a vibration

Retire

Simples

Edited by Giz, 26 March 2013 - 07:29.


#3681 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:01

Pits give Jenson a code to do a few lock ups

Lap times slow down as a result

Tyre develops a vibration

Retire

Simples

Or more simply, the tyre was shot, vibration was bad, car pitted. He'd done nearly twenty laps which we know was the limit for these tyres, his times were rising, it all makes sense to me. I doubt they have a code for 'Jenson, lock up your tyres so we can say they were fecked...'. People need to read about Occam's razor.

Edit: should point out that they probably could've struggled to the end but took advantage of problem to retire car

Edited by bonjon1979a, 26 March 2013 - 08:26.


#3682 JRizzle86

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:17

Pits give Jenson a code to do a few lock ups

Lap times slow down as a result

Tyre develops a vibration

Retire

Simples


You know not everything has to be a conspiracy, it might actually be true.

#3683 Force Ten

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:17

You know not everything has to be a conspiracy, it might actually be true.

Well, it also might be that what he told the press was somewhat true - ie that they were easily able to go to the end. Not everything has to be a thinly veiled "JB is crap, if they only had a proper driver in the car" either.

#3684 Giz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:38

Or more simply, the tyre was shot, vibration was bad, car pitted. He'd done nearly twenty laps which we know was the limit for these tyres, his times were rising, it all makes sense to me. I doubt they have a code for 'Jenson, lock up your tyres so we can say they were fecked...'. People need to read about Occam's razor.

Edit: should point out that they probably could've struggled to the end but took advantage of problem to retire car


Do we ?

I didn't know that


#3685 Giz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:40

You know not everything has to be a conspiracy, it might actually be true.


Yep could just of been a bad set of wheels or some other fault.



#3686 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:06

Do we ?

I didn't know that


Shoildnt've been so definitive, around twenty laps was the limit of these tyres.

http://www.f1fanatic...gies-pit-stops/

How many stints over 20? How did those drivers do? Genuinely can't see myself as my phone won't allow it for some reason!

#3687 eddie66

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:15

[quote name='Giz' date='Mar 26 2013, 09:38' post='6202746']
Do we ?

I didn't know that
[/quot


JB's times where increasing but he was no where near going over the cliff, checkout my post comparing his stint with Checo's.

Edited by eddie66, 26 March 2013 - 10:16.


#3688 Giz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:20

Shoildnt've been so definitive, around twenty laps was the limit of these tyres.

http://www.f1fanatic...gies-pit-stops/

How many stints over 20? How did those drivers do? Genuinely can't see myself as my phone won't allow it for some reason!


JB was up to 18 when he retired
KR and RG did 22 and 21 in last stint
JEV did 19 first stint
SP had got up to 21 when he pitted



#3689 eddie66

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:32

JB was up to 18 when he retired
KR and RG did 22 and 21 in last stint
JEV did 19 first stint
SP had got up to 21 when he pitted



Giz

The poster has some sought of agenda to prove JB could not do a 2 stopper (not including the Inter first stint), I have posted the laptimes and proved JB's tyres where still good. I think the poster has jumped on the fact that some commentator indicated that one of his tyres was bald but this was not the case, he had a vibration in one of his tyre's but it did not effect his pace.

#3690 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:33

JB was up to 18 when he retired
KR and RG did 22 and 21 in last stint
JEV did 19 first stint
SP had got up to 21 when he pitted


So out of seventy odd stints only 3 were more than twenty laps long so we can surmise that around twenty seemed to be around the maximum for these tyres. These are hardly controversial statements, the picture is clear as day...

#3691 WitnessX

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:41

Then only Jenson would get it, I thought gearboxes were homologated also?

AFAIK It's only the engine that homologated. Thats why there is some speculation around the sites that they have the option of fitting the '27 rear end onto the '28 in which would mean reverting back to last years gearbox.

Of course Sergio could have a modified gearbox (If there was one) but he would have to take a 5 place grid penalty. However I don't think that McLaren do have any definite plans of changing the gearbox design.

#3692 Giz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:47

So out of seventy odd stints only 3 were more than twenty laps long so we can surmise that around twenty seemed to be around the maximum for these tyres. These are hardly controversial statements, the picture is clear as day...


Yes - JB could of made his tyres last to the end of the race

#3693 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:47

Giz

The poster has some sought of agenda to prove JB could not do a 2 stopper (not including the Inter first stint), I have posted the laptimes and proved JB's tyres where still good. I think the poster has jumped on the fact that some commentator indicated that one of his tyres was bald but this was not the case, he had a vibration in one of his tyre's but it did not effect his pace.

A 1.43 and a 1.42.7 with six laps to go isn't fine. I don't have any agenda and have no need to prove anything as Jb DIDN'T make a two stop work. Some seem to be seeking to convince themselves that he could with talk of secret coded messages to flat spot his tyres etc. if you look at the data, I find really hard to understand how people can argue that it would've been a struggle and the lap times were only going to go one way which is why I've tried to post various pieces of information to back up the argument. Plus people are ignoring reports of a bald tyre from people who were actually in the pit lane. I'm not going to discuss this any more as posters are inventing it as some sort of attack on jb which it isn't. I want to discuss the merits of the car and in my opinion there is a gap between the data from the last gp and posters interpretations. #iwanttobelieveinmclaren

The car looked better and will no doubt be even further up on the grid come china. This board is supposed to be about discussing the car, not accusing them of having an agenda because their interpretation differs from other posters.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 26 March 2013 - 10:57.


#3694 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:50

[quote name='Giz' date='Mar 26 2013, 10:47' post='6202866']
Yes - JB could of made his tyres last to the end of the race
[/

That wasn't the point I was making. Look at my post, I was saying that it was likely that the tyres were near the end of their life and that it was more likely that they were actually damaged rather than their being some secret coded message for them to flat spot them.

EDIT: Incidentally, I don't quite see how they can change a gearbox having retired the car because of a flat spotted tyre. The regulations are quite clear in that the reason for retirement must be 'beyond the control of the team or driver'. In this case, they could've just changed the wheels and sent him back out again so it's well within their control.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 26 March 2013 - 11:04.


#3695 Giz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:01


Yes - JB could of made his tyres last to the end of the race


That wasn't the point I was making. Look at my post, I was saying that it was likely that the tyres were near the end of their life and that it was more likely that they were actually damaged rather than their being some secret coded message for them to flat spot them.


No doubt the tyres were near the end of their life

I don't think it would of been easy

The coded messages remark was just something that I thought could of happened if McLaren felt that a new gearbox was something they wanted and could explain the slow down in lap times. As I also said its more likely it was a genuine fault

Its already been shown that JBs pace was better than SPs with similair life on their tyres
You can look to see how JBs compares to KRs and RGs if you like but you'd probably have to open a new thread

EDIT - to respond to your edit - I have no idea what testing equipment the FIA have (and if they evven bother unless they are confident something dodgy is going on) but I imagine that a "suspension imbalance" (for example) is going to be pretty hard to find just by looking?

Giz

Edited by Giz, 26 March 2013 - 11:13.


#3696 WitnessX

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:25

That wasn't the point I was making. Look at my post, I was saying that it was likely that the tyres were near the end of their life and that it was more likely that they were actually damaged rather than their being some secret coded message for them to flat spot them.

EDIT: Incidentally, I don't quite see how they can change a gearbox having retired the car because of a flat spotted tyre. The regulations are quite clear in that the reason for retirement must be 'beyond the control of the team or driver'. In this case, they could've just changed the wheels and sent him back out again so it's well within their control.

I think the clue (which I was trying to point out in an earlier post) comes from JB's statement:
JB:
"It (tyre) kept locking up, and it was producing such a bad vibration that I think the guys were worried that it might damage the front left suspension if I carried on,."

I imagine their excuse would be they suspected there may have been damage, or had weakened the front left suspension and so they retired it for safety reasons.

#3697 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:29

That wasn't the point I was making. Look at my post, I was saying that it was likely that the tyres were near the end of their life and that it was more likely that they were actually damaged rather than their being some secret coded message for them to flat spot them.


No doubt the tyres were near the end of their life

I don't think it would of been easy

The coded messages remark was just something that I thought could of happened if McLaren felt that a new gearbox was something they wanted and could explain the slow down in lap times. As I also said its more likely it was a genuine fault

Its already been shown that JBs pace was better than SPs with similair life on their tyres
You can look to see how JBs compares to KRs and RGs if you like but you'd probably have to open a new thread

EDIT - to respond to your edit - I have no idea what testing equipment the FIA have (and if they evven bother unless they are confident something dodgy is going on) but I imagine that a "suspension imbalance" (for example) is going to be pretty hard to find just by looking?

Giz


haha quite. I think I'll give it a miss, too much to do.

It'll be interesting to see what happens regarding the gearbox, I'm not sure the FIA will be too hard on it and may take Mclaren's word for it. My first thought was that they may want to be able to change the gearbox, not just because of reliability but because they need a new casing to change the suspension pick ups if that was a modification they're hoping to do for china. Can't quite remember but i seem to remember last year Massa getting an upgrade before alonso because he'd had a crash which meant his gearbox could be changed to the new one which allowed for a change to the rear suspension geometry. I may be making this up but I've got a vague recollection of something like this...



#3698 tkulla

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:29

I think the clue (which I was trying to point out in an earlier post) comes from JB's statement:
JB:
"It (tyre) kept locking up, and it was producing such a bad vibration that I think the guys were worried that it might damage the front left suspension if I carried on,."

I imagine their excuse would be they suspected there may have been damage, or had weakened the front left suspension and so they retired it for safety reasons.


Pretty flimsy but it's hard to argue with a safety concern.

As for his lap times, he didn't go above the 41s until he caught up to traffic. His times aren't representative of his pace at that point.

#3699 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:31

I think the clue (which I was trying to point out in an earlier post) comes from JB's statement:
JB:
"It (tyre) kept locking up, and it was producing such a bad vibration that I think the guys were worried that it might damage the front left suspension if I carried on,."

I imagine their excuse would be they suspected there may have been damage, or had weakened the front left suspension and so they retired it for safety reasons.


Yeah, I imagine that's what their excuse will be but what JB says doesn't help really, as it was the tyre locking up that might damage the front suspension. Change the tyre and that risk disappears? No?

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#3700 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:45

Pretty flimsy but it's hard to argue with a safety concern.

As for his lap times, he didn't go above the 41s until he caught up to traffic. His times aren't representative of his pace at that point.


Fine. I'm sure he could've gone on doing 41's in perpetuity, he was nailed on for the podium at least. No mistake, the car will win next GP.

There. Hopefully that'll bring an end to it.