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McLaren MP4-28


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#3701 Giz

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:46

If the '28 is good at looking after its tyres how much of an advantage could it be?

Doing one less stop worked for Lotus in Australia but not in Malaysia

Will teams with higher deg like RB and Merc just improve it so any advantage is wiped out?

If we increase downforce will this increase wear on the tyres (the problem RB and Merc are complaining about)?

Giz



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#3702 tkulla

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:54

Fine. I'm sure he could've gone on doing 41's in perpetuity, he was nailed on for the podium at least. No mistake, the car will win next GP.

There. Hopefully that'll bring an end to it.


Nope. The fact is we just don't know. Had the pitstop blunder not happened Button would have been released on clear track instead of a lap down behind the Mercs. Without being held up he might have burned up his tyres more if he had showed pace right away, or maybe he would have managed them better. He would have still hit that traffic, but with the benefit of blue flags. And Nico old have been released past Lewis and we don't know what his ultimate pace would have been either. It would have been very interesting to find out though!

#3703 bonjon1979a

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 11:59

Nope. The fact is we just don't know. Had the pitstop blunder not happened Button would have been released on clear track instead of a lap down behind the Mercs. Without being held up he might have burned up his tyres more if he had showed pace right away, or maybe he would have managed them better. He would have still hit that traffic, but with the benefit of blue flags. And Nico old have been released past Lewis and we don't know what his ultimate pace would have been either. It would have been very interesting to find out though!


Agreed.

#3704 Obi Offiah

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:57

Do we know what sort of upgrades McLaren plans to bring to China?

#3705 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 15:10

Do we know what sort of upgrades McLaren plans to bring to China?


Of course not but I'm sure there will be quite a few. They've basically known since BCN #2 the car was off. I'm sure the team intently focused on the problems and started working on new developments. They've had 3 weeks since then which includes winter testing data and I would say one GP worth of data to help with the new parts(to arrive in time for China), and obviously there's 3 more weeks until China. I would bet that MaCa won't bring the house so to speak in China, but introduce a few crucial updates to confirm they're on the right path and bring the house in Spain as China & Bahrain are back to back.
Of course I could be wrong, McLaren may opt to use a straightline test before China to confirm progress and bring everything to China. Either way I bet we see a competitive MP4-28 by end of the Spanish Grand Prix.

Edit: Sorry Obi obviously I didn't answer your question. Just giving my thoughts.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 26 March 2013 - 15:11.


#3706 Mc_Silver

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 15:18

Of course not but I'm sure there will be quite a few. They've basically known since BCN #2 the car was off. I'm sure the team intently focused on the problems and started working on new developments. They've had 3 weeks since then which includes winter testing data and I would say one GP worth of data to help with the new parts(to arrive in time for China), and obviously there's 3 more weeks until China. I would bet that MaCa won't bring the house so to speak in China, but introduce a few crucial updates to confirm they're on the right path and bring the house in Spain as China & Bahrain are back to back.
Of course I could be wrong, McLaren may opt to use a straightline test before China to confirm progress and bring everything to China. Either way I bet we see a competitive MP4-28 by end of the Spanish Grand Prix.

Edit: Sorry Obi obviously I didn't answer your question. Just giving my thoughts.


I hope this is the case. My biggest worry is qualifying. If you start from 9th and 10th the best possibility for you is podium finish. We should be able to start in top 5 consistently to have a go in the race. We know Button and Perez are not qualifying specialists so we may need more than a good car to achieve good starting positions.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 26 March 2013 - 15:19.


#3707 pup

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 15:53

I expect that any new bits for China will be fairly subtle, given the nature of the problem. A slightly altered curve, a little winglet here or there, a bit of a different cut to the floor, etc. Probably a lot of small changes but nothing that will get the average fan hot and bothered over it. And that's a good thing. Assuming it works.

#3708 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 16:02

Car was so fast in Sepang.On dry better than in damp-wet track.

I hope podium in China.

#3709 Treads

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 16:29

I expect that any new bits for China will be fairly subtle, given the nature of the problem. A slightly altered curve, a little winglet here or there, a bit of a different cut to the floor, etc. Probably a lot of small changes but nothing that will get the average fan hot and bothered over it. And that's a good thing. Assuming it works.


For someone who's been travelling in the arse-end of nowhere for the last 3 weeks and therefore missed both GPs and all board time, would some helpful person mind summarising what the nature of the problem is? Is the cause of the cock-up now understood?

I read somewhere Mac modelled the re-profiled Pirellis incorrectly, is there more to it than that?

(Sorry to rehash old ground but there have literally been 50+ pages of comments posted since I last checked this thread and I don't have a day to read through the whole lot of them).

Edited by Treads, 26 March 2013 - 16:39.


#3710 pup

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 16:59

The rumor is that it is the tire shape that's at the root of the problem. But I think that regardless of the specific cause, the overall problem with the car, according to what the team has said, is that the aero is only working within a narrow range of setups. So, it's not as if the aero isn't working at all, or that there are other innovative solutions from other teams that they'd have to completely re-design to copy. It's just that they can't reliably get the car into its optimal setup. If that's true, then their goal should be to widen that range in which the aero works, which I'm guessing means tweaks here and there to keep the airflow going where it needs to go - the first trick being to figure out when and where the airflow is going off course, and the second being to figure out how to reliably keep it where it needs to be.

#3711 chumma

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 19:49

@ Joseluisf1: McLaren seems to take a great package evolutionary China both in quantity and value of the pieces, to see that they get

Lots of bits coming guys!

#3712 chumma

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 19:51

The rumor is that it is the tire shape that's at the root of the problem. But I think that regardless of the specific cause, the overall problem with the car, according to what the team has said, is that the aero is only working within a narrow range of setups. So, it's not as if the aero isn't working at all, or that there are other innovative solutions from other teams that they'd have to completely re-design to copy. It's just that they can't reliably get the car into its optimal setup. If that's true, then their goal should be to widen that range in which the aero works, which I'm guessing means tweaks here and there to keep the airflow going where it needs to go - the first trick being to figure out when and where the airflow is going off course, and the second being to figure out how to reliably keep it where it needs to be.

I think youd be surprised how much wider the set up window will be once they rectify the tyre shape problem, that could be throwing the air completely off, with that alone they will find lap time, whether or not they'll get it erfect first time around though is another thing

#3713 Mc_Silver

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 20:58

@ Joseluisf1: McLaren seems to take a great package evolutionary China both in quantity and value of the pieces, to see that they get

Lots of bits coming guys!



:up:

#3714 Treads

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 21:51

The rumor is that it is the tire shape that's at the root of the problem. But I think that regardless of the specific cause, the overall problem with the car, according to what the team has said, is that the aero is only working within a narrow range of setups. So, it's not as if the aero isn't working at all, or that there are other innovative solutions from other teams that they'd have to completely re-design to copy. It's just that they can't reliably get the car into its optimal setup. If that's true, then their goal should be to widen that range in which the aero works, which I'm guessing means tweaks here and there to keep the airflow going where it needs to go - the first trick being to figure out when and where the airflow is going off course, and the second being to figure out how to reliably keep it where it needs to be.


Thanks.

Sounds like a fundamental design thing - the aero is so sensitive to changes in pitch, yaw, roll that they need to make the car very stiff to make the aero work. Must be frustrating - soften the suspension and lose d/f, firm it up and gain d/f but lose time over bumps and kerbs.

I am so frustrated, JB already the best part of 40 points behind finger boy. And that gap will probably grow in the next 2 races. Season could be over before it's a quarter old.

#3715 pacificquay

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:56

40 points is only about 12 points in old money, not too much

#3716 Obi Offiah

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 11:57

Of course not but I'm sure there will be quite a few. They've basically known since BCN #2 the car was off. I'm sure the team intently focused on the problems and started working on new developments. They've had 3 weeks since then which includes winter testing data and I would say one GP worth of data to help with the new parts(to arrive in time for China), and obviously there's 3 more weeks until China. I would bet that MaCa won't bring the house so to speak in China, but introduce a few crucial updates to confirm they're on the right path and bring the house in Spain as China & Bahrain are back to back.
Of course I could be wrong, McLaren may opt to use a straightline test before China to confirm progress and bring everything to China. Either way I bet we see a competitive MP4-28 by end of the Spanish Grand Prix.

Edit: Sorry Obi obviously I didn't answer your question. Just giving my thoughts.

Your thoughts are most welcome CrucialXtreme. :up:

#3717 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 13:08

Great pic of the part of the floor McLaren cut off in Malaysia that they say worked.

Posted Image
via @tgruener

#3718 slmk

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 13:15

@ Joseluisf1: McLaren seems to take a great package evolutionary China both in quantity and value of the pieces, to see that they get

Lots of bits coming guys!


While this might be true, hopefully it is, Joseluis is hardly reliable (see Ferrari)

#3719 JRizzle86

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 13:27

Great pic of the part of the floor McLaren cut off in Malaysia that they say worked.

Posted Image
via @tgruener


Sometimes the simplest changes make the biggest difference. I assume the floor change is linked to the incorrect tyre shape modelling.

Edited by JRizzle86, 27 March 2013 - 13:27.


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#3720 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 13:44

Sometimes the simplest changes make the biggest difference. I assume the floor change is linked to the incorrect tyre shape modelling.


Yes, it shows just how complicated these cars are. Missing the boat on the shape of the tyres can affect much of the car starting with the most crucial part, the front wing(airflow off FW). I think because the team said they made progress, shows they're headed in the right direction.

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 27 March 2013 - 14:03.


#3721 GlenP

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 13:57

I don't know about this tyre shape story. I'm sure it makes a difference, but not compared to front wing design, for example. Other teams have been running the high chassis for quite a while, and they are better versed in all the little tricks and flips to get the air to flow efficiently to the back of the car. McLaren are learning those tricks and playing catch up. The situation seems to be made worse by McLaren's already very stiff ride, which has been the case for years.

#3722 Lemans

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 16:19

Yes, it shows just how complicated these cars are. Missing the boat on the shape of the tyres can affect much of the car starting with the most crucial part, the front wing(airflow off FW). I think because the team said they made progress, shows they're headed in the right direction.


Indeed. Makes you wonder how a team like McLaren could miss something like that.
Thanks for the pic, Crucial. I'm assuming a further revised floor for China.





#3723 pup

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 17:01

One thing I noticed is that the tires seem to be a lot more flexible this year than last. In one of the slo-mo shots of the Red Bull last weekend, I initially thought they had a broken suspension because of the amount of squat they had coming out of the corner, but it was all in the tires.

#3724 Owen

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 17:04

McLaren meanwhile seemed much more competitive in Malaysia with Jenson's pace in and around that of Raikkonen and Massa.

Having held fifth place for some time the team was struck with a pit stop issue that saw Jenson drive off with his front right wheel not fully attached. He quickly realised and stopped in the pits and waited for a push back to the box by his mechanics to resolve the issue. This obviously resulted in a large chunk of time passing by undoing a lot of his on track work. As I pointed out in a recent article, the team's Australian woes cannot be solely attributed to its switch to the pull rod suspension at the front of the car. It has, of course, made the car very peaky in terms of setup but the problems are perhaps more aerodynamic in nature.

The team ran plenty of aero tests throughout Free Practice and seems to have settled on reducing the Front Wing's angle of attack in a bid to resolve some of its centre of pressure (Front to rear) aero balance issues. This is more of a sticking plaster in terms of resolving the underlying issues but helped the team in the interim. Something that I didn't mention in the article above is McLaren's approach to the new Pirelli tyre structure and the impact on aerodynamics. (Something Ferrari themselves were caught out with a few years ago).

Jenson was forced to retire later on in the race due to the earlier pit stop / wheel nut issue but was adamant that without the problem he'd have finished fifth.

There is reason for McLaren to be optimistic, with Perez collecting ninth place and the fastest lap of the race and now with a three-week break I'm sure we can expect the team to be working hard on bringing parts to China.

http://www.pitpass.c...hnical-Analysis

#3725 Owen

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 17:12

Revised engine cover for Malaysia. Courtesy of @tgruener
https://twitter.com/...9538306/photo/1

#3726 jjcale

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 18:16

Does JB get a new gearbox next race??

#3727 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 18:43

Their performance is a big surprise for me seriously. Because, according to the winter test's scores, I thought they were gonna be more, more competitive. 2 points from Checo, 2 point from JB as well. In all 4 points, too, too few. Surprise, surprise...

I expect they will improve fairly in the near future.

#3728 FastnLoud

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 19:02

Podium for Jenson in China,

So many updates coming you wouldn't believe and the data gathered regarding setup is going to help.

:up:

#3729 Wingnut

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 19:59

Their performance is a big surprise for me seriously. Because, according to the winter test's scores, I thought they were gonna be more, more competitive. 2 points from Checo, 2 point from JB as well. In all 4 points, too, too few. Surprise, surprise...

I expect they will improve fairly in the near future.


You were expecting more? After a pretty disastrous winter testing coupled with McLarens' apparent operational and tactical ineptitude, 4 points seems about right to me.

#3730 chumma

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:00

Their performance is a big surprise for me seriously. Because, according to the winter test's scores, I thought they were gonna be more, more competitive. 2 points from Checo, 2 point from JB as well. In all 4 points, too, too few. Surprise, surprise...

I expect they will improve fairly in the near future.

Their form from Melbourne to Malaysia was of opposite ends of the spectrum. Mainly (in my view) due to the bumps of Melbourne (which doesnt bode well for Monaco), but I was hugely surprised of the pace we showed in Sepang, and I think, we will definitely be fighting for the win come China so long as there isn't a first lap cock up again so fingerboy doesnt have 2+ seconds after lap 1 (I'd say he'll be on pole again)

#3731 senna da silva

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:03

Podium for Jenson in China,

So many updates coming you wouldn't believe and the data gathered regarding setup is going to help.

:up:


What about Perez?


#3732 Clatter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:09

Their form from Melbourne to Malaysia was of opposite ends of the spectrum. Mainly (in my view) due to the bumps of Melbourne (which doesnt bode well for Monaco), but I was hugely surprised of the pace we showed in Sepang, and I think, we will definitely be fighting for the win come China so long as there isn't a first lap cock up again so fingerboy doesnt have 2+ seconds after lap 1 (I'd say he'll be on pole again)


Fighting for the win would take a dramatic leap in performance. I hope that happens, but will be very surprised if it does.


#3733 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:17

You were expecting more? After a pretty disastrous winter testing coupled with McLarens' apparent operational and tactical ineptitude, 4 points seems about right to me.


As we could see in Malaysia, the McLaren's speed wasn't very disastrous, because JB was in P5 till his spoiled pit-stop. It was only the mechanic' fault. The velocity was so promising...

But as I said in my previous comment, I absolutely expect better achievement from the whole team on the next races...

#3734 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:21

Their form from Melbourne to Malaysia was of opposite ends of the spectrum. Mainly (in my view) due to the bumps of Melbourne (which doesnt bode well for Monaco), but I was hugely surprised of the pace we showed in Sepang, and I think, we will definitely be fighting for the win come China so long as there isn't a first lap cock up again so fingerboy doesnt have 2+ seconds after lap 1 (I'd say he'll be on pole again)


I was surprised too... and in my opinion they can maintain this pace for China too.

#3735 Dalton007

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:23

What about Perez?


Who?;)

I'm sure he will be picking up the pace and have stronger race performances very soon.

#3736 mlsnoopy

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:23

What about Perez?


Only one set of updates?

#3737 bonjon1979a

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:28

As we could see in Malaysia, the McLaren's speed wasn't very disastrous, because JB was in P5 till his spoiled pit-stop. It was only the mechanic' fault. The velocity was so promising...

But as I said in my previous comment, I absolutely expect better achievement from the whole team on the next races...


Speed was good. It did seem to be an off day in comparison to oz for lotus, Alonso wasn't in it and I'd be surprised if force India werent in the mix to be in the top 5 as well come china. Basically, it's very competitive and I wouldn't be surprised to see but and Perez qualify 9 + 10 and therefore be held back there in the race. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised to see one Mclaren on the second row. I'd be surprised to see a mac on the front row or on the podium at the end. I think lotus will be resurgent, Alonso will be pushing for the win and red bull will be looking to dominate after this weekends debacle. Not to mention merc who look second fastest behind red bull. There are a lot of quick cars on the grid and while it was a better weekend for mac, I've not seen anything to make me think they've broken into the top four. With updates though? Who knows...

#3738 bonjon1979a

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:29

Who?;)

I'm sure he will be picking up the pace and have stronger race performances very soon.

What're you talking about? Perez is the lead driver of the team according to the points table?  ;)

#3739 senna da silva

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:34

What're you talking about? Perez is the lead driver of the team according to the points table? ;)


And as we all know its only the points tally that really matters.  ;)

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#3740 bonjon1979a

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:38

And as we all know its only the points tally that really matters. ;)

Oh definitely, it's the only way you can really judge the quality of a driver...

#3741 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:43

Speed was good. It did seem to be an off day in comparison to oz for lotus, Alonso wasn't in it and I'd be surprised if force India werent in the mix to be in the top 5 as well come china. Basically, it's very competitive and I wouldn't be surprised to see but and Perez qualify 9 + 10 and therefore be held back there in the race. Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised to see one Mclaren on the second row. I'd be surprised to see a mac on the front row or on the podium at the end. I think lotus will be resurgent, Alonso will be pushing for the win and red bull will be looking to dominate after this weekends debacle. Not to mention merc who look second fastest behind red bull. There are a lot of quick cars on the grid and while it was a better weekend for mac, I've not seen anything to make me think they've broken into the top four. With updates though? Who knows...


Well, I didn't say that they were in the top positions, just said that they showed a huge improvement and a quite superb pace compared with their performance in Australia... Maybe the speed will improve due to updates... but as you said, we can't know it surely.

#3742 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:49

What're you talking about? Perez is the lead driver of the team according to the points table?;)


What?! Both have 2-2 points... and Button lost a lot in the box last Sunday owing to the "fascinating mechanic' performance"...
Obviously Button is the better, and the more talented driver of the two.

Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood you...

Edited by Massafan, 27 March 2013 - 20:54.


#3743 bogi

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:51

What?! Both have 2-2 points... and Button lost a lot in the box last Sunday owing to the "fascinating mechanic' performance"...
Obviously Button is the better, and the more talented driver of the two.


This way plase.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178900



#3744 Peter Perfect

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:52

This way plase.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178900

:lol: just beat me to it

#3745 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:57

This way plase.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=178900


Sorry, what should I see or do there?...

The topic is about McLaren, isn't it?

Edited by Massafan, 27 March 2013 - 21:05.


#3746 bonjon1979a

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 20:58

Well, I didn't say that they were in the top positions, just said that they showed a huge improvement and a quite superb pace compared with their performance in Australia... Maybe the speed will improve due to updates... but as you said, we can't know it surely.

Sorry, wasn't directly replying to your post,

#3747 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:02

Sorry, wasn't directly replying to your post,


Not? I thought so, 'cause it fitted to my post completely... But, no problem.

#3748 trogggy

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:05

Sorry, what should I see here?...

A driver thread. As opposed to a car thread.

#3749 bonjon1979a

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:05

What?! Both have 2-2 points... and Button lost a lot in the box last Sunday owing to the "fascinating mechanic' performance"...
Obviously Button is the better, and the more talented driver of the two.

Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood you...

I believe Perez getting 11th in oz means he's ranked above button whose other result is a dnf.

Anyway, the car - I've a feeling that the team is in better shape than Ferrari were last year, you can tell that there's just something quite tricksy going on with it that needs to be resolved rather than something fundamental like weight distribution or wheelbase. It's unfortunate that the team stuffed up the pitstop because those points would've gone some way to ease the pain of the first few races. China should be very interesting

#3750 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:07

A driver thread. As opposed to a car thread.


OK, don't mind. :)