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McLaren MP4-28


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#3751 bonjon1979a

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:08

Not? I thought so, 'cause it fitted to my post completely... But, no problem.


The first bit did but then I went on a different track, as I am want to do. Love the story about them hacksawing off a bit of the floor and finding instant performance. All that money spent on cfd, wind tunnels and high tech carbon fibre kilns and its a bloke with a five pound blade from b&q who makes the thing go faster

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#3752 Massafan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 21:15

I believe Perez getting 11th in oz means he's ranked above button whose other result is a dnf.

Anyway, the car - I've a feeling that the team is in better shape than Ferrari were last year, you can tell that there's just something quite tricksy going on with it that needs to be resolved rather than something fundamental like weight distribution or wheelbase. It's unfortunate that the team stuffed up the pitstop because those points would've gone some way to ease the pain of the first few races. China should be very interesting


OK, that's right... I just thought that we should judge the better position for Button, 'cause he was absolutely quicker than Checo throughout the all weekend. But it doesn't matter really...

But obviuously the team, the mechanics have to do their work better unless they don't want to lose more very important points.

#3753 mclarennut

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 10:06

Nice to see McLaren back near the top after just two races, (forget the wheel problem), I can see McLaren really coming on leaps and bounds now they have an idea where the main problems are, I can see them having a lot of late nights in Surrey the next couple of weeks getting the parts ready.

China updates will be interesting and I for one would not be shocked if they take pole/the win.

You can never keep a top team down, keep the faith.

Edited by mclarennut, 28 March 2013 - 10:09.


#3754 burlyman

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 16:32

Bit off tangent but James Allen has commented on his site (but not officially reported) the following:

  • Honda Engine Deal is done
  • Official Title Sponsor is signed for next year.

James Allen Reply:
March 28th, 2013 at 5:03 pm

Deal is done for Honda

As is replacement title sponsorship deal



#3755 ATM_Andy

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:08

Bit off tangent but James Allen has commented on his site (but not officially reported) the following:

  • Honda Engine Deal is done
  • Official Title Sponsor is signed for next year.


Worst kept secret in F1.

#3756 ATM_Andy

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:11

I don't know about this tyre shape story. I'm sure it makes a difference, but not compared to front wing design, for example. Other teams have been running the high chassis for quite a while, and they are better versed in all the little tricks and flips to get the air to flow efficiently to the back of the car. McLaren are learning those tricks and playing catch up. The situation seems to be made worse by McLaren's already very stiff ride, which has been the case for years.


Little differences have a big effect.

#3757 burlyman

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:12

Worst kept secret in F1.


Just doing my small bit to keep the swing-o-meter going.


#3758 GlenP

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:15

Little differences have a big effect.

I agree. That does not alter where one might find those small differences. Accounting for tyre shape is one thing, finding an array of different tricks with the front wing is several other things is my opinion.

#3759 Peter Perfect

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:19

Bit off tangent but James Allen has commented on his site (but not officially reported) the following:

  • Honda Engine Deal is done
  • Official Title Sponsor is signed for next year.

Sounds about right. The Force India news just helped to confirm it really.

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#3760 Obi Offiah

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:27

Little differences have a big effect.

2008 Torro Rosso. Apparently it gained downforce with wets fitted.

#3761 ATM_Andy

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:28

Then only Jenson would get it, I thought gearboxes were homologated also?

Ratios are fixed to 8 different configurations, with an option on final drive.

#3762 pup

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 17:33

I'm liking this idea that the airflow problem may be concentrated around the rear tire. I'd think that the farther back the problem, the greater the chance that planned aero upgrades are still relevant.

Andy, am I right that it's the lateral flex of the rear tires that's causing the gap between the tire and the floor to either get choked off or get too wide during cornering?

Edited by pup, 28 March 2013 - 17:38.


#3763 10e10

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 18:02

Worst kept secret in F1.


Glad to hear! :clap:

#3764 BillBald

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 19:38

Ratios are fixed to 8 different configurations, with an option on final drive.


The question was: will Jenson be allowed to get a new gearbox without penalty, since he retired in Sepang?

And, if so, would this allow a new design of gearbox to be fitted, eg with different suspension mounting points?



#3765 Fastcake

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 20:02

Worst kept secret in F1.


If that's not unofficial official confirmation I don't know what is ;)

Hope you know Andy we're still here supporting you guys even through the recent troubles. :) I'm sure you'll repay us with a few wins eventually.

#3766 chumma

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 00:16

Is it confirmed to be the 'rear' tyre thats causing the problem? I thought it was the fronts?

Edit, and if its an aero problem, that doesn't explain why we seem to be bad in the slower corners (when I say bad I don't mean we're bad I just mean we don't look to be as good as Lotus and certainly not Red Bull), and the cars problems over the bumps. We haven't really been able to see how good the traction is yet but we shall see all come China! Please hurry up!

Edited by chumma, 29 March 2013 - 00:18.


#3767 drag

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 02:19

I dont know if someone posted this,but it is nice read about mclaren

what’s gone wrong? And is there a quick fix?

http://uk.eurosport....-132917695.html

#3768 rodlamas

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:21

The question was: will Jenson be allowed to get a new gearbox without penalty, since he retired in Sepang?

And, if so, would this allow a new design of gearbox to be fitted, eg with different suspension mounting points?


Of course he will. The vibration thing on the last few laps was bullshit. He retired in order to have a new gearbox for the next race.

And ask Andy (not me) if it will come with different mounting points / suspension layout.

#3769 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:20

I dont know if someone posted this,but it is nice read about mclaren

what’s gone wrong? And is there a quick fix?

http://uk.eurosport....-132917695.html


They're clueless as to the problems of the MP4-28. They had zero idea what MaCa did in Malaysia to help the car saying "either the track suited them or something they did worked".. Ya think?



#3770 GlenP

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:42

Check that Eurosport feature for a lot more common sense than has been flying around. The problems do indeed appear to be at the front of the car. It also explains how a stiffer car is less good in slow speed corners, which is why the aero fix (keep the car as flat as possible) adversely affects the mechanical grip.

Edited by GlenP, 29 March 2013 - 09:43.


#3771 Iron Maiden

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 18:40

Check that Eurosport feature for a lot more common sense than has been flying around. The problems do indeed appear to be at the front of the car. It also explains how a stiffer car is less good in slow speed corners, which is why the aero fix (keep the car as flat as possible) adversely affects the mechanical grip.


This matches up with autosports technical articles and comments from Whitmarsh. I don't believe the tyres have had a major impact (they had tested them and been given their specs).

Whitmarsh specifically said the problem was a too narrow aerodynamic working window in an interview with Sky f1 before malaysia qualifying. It looks like they are having to set the car up very stiff to keep the car as stable as possible and within the aero working range. This hurts at tracks where a stiff set up is not ideal, hence the car bouncing around all over Melbourne.

To improve they need to develop an aero package that works over a range of ride heights and is not so affected by changes throughout a lap.



#3772 bonjon1979a

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 23:41

Of course he will. The vibration thing on the last few laps was bullshit. He retired in order to have a new gearbox for the next race.

And ask Andy (not me) if it will come with different mounting points / suspension layout.

You can't just retire and get a new gearbox in next race. The team has to prove that it was a problem that was beyond the driver and teams ability to remedy. A flat spotted tyre isn't enough, so unless they can prove that there was a genuine issue, they won't get a new gearbox.

#3773 BigCHrome

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:17

I don't know about this tyre shape story. I'm sure it makes a difference, but not compared to front wing design, for example. Other teams have been running the high chassis for quite a while, and they are better versed in all the little tricks and flips to get the air to flow efficiently to the back of the car. McLaren are learning those tricks and playing catch up. The situation seems to be made worse by McLaren's already very stiff ride, which has been the case for years.


I'm sure McLaren have spend thousands of hours in the wind tunnel / CFD working on the underside of the nose. I really doubt that would be their problem.

The first bit did but then I went on a different track, as I am want to do. Love the story about them hacksawing off a bit of the floor and finding instant performance. All that money spent on cfd, wind tunnels and high tech carbon fibre kilns and its a bloke with a five pound blade from b&q who makes the thing go faster


It's the wind tunnel and CFD research that showed the bloke where to cut the floor. It's not like they randomly cut it by intuition and found a bunch of performance.

#3774 GlenP

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:15

I'm sure McLaren have spend thousands of hours in the wind tunnel / CFD working on the underside of the nose. I really doubt that would be their problem.

What you are saying there would apply to any feature of the car, yet they do have problems.

The underside of the nose is a tiny tiny piece of the puzzle. The bigger piece is the whole business of getting the air off the front wing (and nose, and (yes) the underside of the front chassis) and flowing into all the right places rearward on the car. The entire point of having the higher nose is working the rear of the car harder and in specific ways - that is the thing that they are behind on.

#3775 Mc_Silver

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:20

I think we will see lots comparison tests in China with the new parts coming. They'll try to explore which exact area of the car is causing the problem. I believe they are in the middle of the understanding the problem. Chinese gp will be key one before Euopean races. I'm sure they have already started to design new development parts for Spanish Gp. We need to wait and see how it pans out in the next few races. I don't think we will go backwards rather than forwards. How big step these new parts will make is the main question in my mind. Keep the faith guys!

Edited by Mc_Silver, 30 March 2013 - 11:10.


#3776 Absulute

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:21

I'm sure Oliver Turvey has been been putting in hundreds of laps round the super secret underground test track.

#3777 tkulla

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:54

Mark Hughes on the importance of the MP4-28 upgrades for China...

http://www1.skysport...Laren-s-season-

"Don't bet against a total transformation of form."

#3778 10e10

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:57

Mark Hughes on the importance of the MP4-28 upgrades for China...

http://www1.skysport...Laren-s-season-

"Don't bet against a total transformation of form."


That would be too good to be true.

#3779 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:16

That would be too good to be true.


It makes sense though, that it's all to do with ride height - it explains why they were so fast on the opening day at Jerez with what was effective an illegally low ride height, and it explains why they were better at a smoother circuit like Malaysia than they were at Melbourne.

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#3780 Peter Perfect

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:38

It makes sense though, that it's all to do with ride height - it explains why they were so fast on the opening day at Jerez with what was effective an illegally low ride height, and it explains why they were better at a smoother circuit like Malaysia than they were at Melbourne.

:up: And also why there was no consistency in the balance of the car, with set-up changes not producing predictable behaviour.

Hopefully they've got a proper handle on the causes of the airflow detachment. Sounds like how they go in China will be a major form indicator for the rest of the season.

#3781 bauss

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:42

wont bet against it, we know from last year they know how to make a fast car with the current regs.

It is not beyond them that they got one fundamental wrong of the many complex calculations of the new car, once they find and fix it ... they will be fast again and join the frontrunners... whether that can take them beyond the frontrunners will be the question.

#3782 Obi Offiah

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 13:54

Mark Hughes on the importance of the MP4-28 upgrades for China...

http://www1.skysport...Laren-s-season-

"Don't bet against a total transformation of form."

That won't surprise me to tell you the truth. The fundamental aspects of the car and the design concept appeared very solid from the outset. Fingers crossed.

#3783 Mc_Silver

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 14:33

That won't surprise me to tell you the truth. The fundamental aspects of the car and the design concept appeared very solid from the outset. Fingers crossed.


:up: :up: Please god, help McLaren to fix their issues ASAP :kiss:

#3784 mlsnoopy

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 14:54

Mark Hughes on the importance of the MP4-28 upgrades for China...

http://www1.skysport...Laren-s-season-

"Don't bet against a total transformation of form."


Something similar was wrong with the MP4-25.

#3785 Owen

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 17:39

:up: :up: Please god, help McLaren to fix their issues ASAP :kiss:

Hopefully the 'real' McLaren turns up at China.

#3786 Owen

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 19:59

'Further progress' expected at China: Martin Whitmarsh
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/104567.html

#3787 skakavac111

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 20:10

'Further progress' expected at China: Martin Whitmarsh
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/104567.html



I hope so...
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Mclaren you can win everything this year.... CMON...

#3788 BigCHrome

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 20:12

What you are saying there would apply to any feature of the car, yet they do have problems.

The underside of the nose is a tiny tiny piece of the puzzle. The bigger piece is the whole business of getting the air off the front wing (and nose, and (yes) the underside of the front chassis) and flowing into all the right places rearward on the car. The entire point of having the higher nose is working the rear of the car harder and in specific ways - that is the thing that they are behind on.


It would apply if the car was behaving in real life like it was on the computer. Obviously something went wrong - > possibly the changes in tire profiles. I don't believe for one second that the problem is due to "inexperience" of working with a higher chassis nor the front wing interacting with the rest of the car.

#3789 FastnLoud

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 21:49

Mark Hughes on the importance of the MP4-28 upgrades for China...

http://www1.skysport...Laren-s-season-

"Don't bet against a total transformation of form."


I told everyone this days ago, it's nothing new.

The team will have a chance for the race win in China, well, Jenson will have the chance of the race win :p

I don't want to say too much but it's kind of an embarrassment what went wrong with the car and the actual fix, i don't know who this ATM_Andy guy is as he is in the race department i presume but he will know what i mean.



#3790 Massafan

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:04

'Further progress' expected at China: Martin Whitmarsh
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/104567.html


I've just read it... I was gonna post it... :lol:

I think they'll improve a lot, their performance was so promising in Malaysia already...

#3791 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:43

McLaren have exhibited a definite lack of consistency in their design and simulation process in recent years. 2009, the octopus diffuser, I'm assuming the 28 has gone through a similar process indicating a poor simulation to reality correlation. Many McLaren's of recent years have required big rethinks in the early season which have ultimately cost them wins and championship attempts. Relying on their ability to analyse and develop a car isn't good enough to win titles, they need to design a winning car.

#3792 Markn93

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 13:24

Mclaren just won a race! With Sebastien Loeb driving and Red Bull livery :drunk: Hopefully the first of many this season :clap:

(And no that wasn't an April fool).

#3793 tkulla

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:16

Some positive vibes flying around right now... I hope it's not just an uptick of the swing-o-meter.;)

I can't wait to see how effective the updates will be in China. Last year the McLarens finished 2-3 behind Nico in the Mercedes and qualified 2nd and 7th. Perez qualified 8th and finished 11th in the Sauber. Interestingly, Red Bull struggled here in Q, with Vettel not making Q3.

Jenson did some successful racing this weekend, finishing the Ironman 70.3 California triathlon in a time of 4:29:00. He placed 78th out of 540 finishers. His splits were:

Swim 00:25:57 Bike 02:30:00 Run 01:29:04

An F1 race must seem like a light workout physically to Jenson at this point. At one point Nico Rosberg was doing triathlons too, but I haven't heard anything about him doing them lately.

Edited by tkulla, 31 March 2013 - 15:16.


#3794 study

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:20

McLaren have exhibited a definite lack of consistency in their design and simulation process in recent years. 2009, the octopus diffuser, I'm assuming the 28 has gone through a similar process indicating a poor simulation to reality correlation. Many McLaren's of recent years have required big rethinks in the early season which have ultimately cost them wins and championship attempts. Relying on their ability to analyse and develop a car isn't good enough to win titles, they need to design a winning car.


I'm still waiting for their dynamic tyre analysing software that is years ahead of all the other team to actually once produce a car that can use tyres better then any other team.

#3795 tkulla

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 15:30

I'm still waiting for their dynamic tyre analysing software that is years ahead of all the other team to actually once produce a car that can use tyres better then any other team.


To be fair the tyres have changed almost every year and with limited useful testing (due to low temperatures) no one has the data necessary to model the tyres properly before the season starts. It's not like their system is modeling the tyres and road at the molecular level to simulate performance - I'm sure it's just a model based on real world data.


#3796 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 16:33

Analyse the tyres as much as you want but they are the same for everyone and all you can do is change pressures and try control temps. By far the biggest opportunity for development is aero to press the tyres as hard and consistantly as possible into the tarmac and if you arent leading the way aero wise you wont be winning. Mark Hughes says McLaren have once again for their diffuser design wrong out of the box.

#3797 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 20:06

'Further progress' expected at China: Martin Whitmarsh
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/104567.html


Yeah the car was so good in Sepang for every upgrades in bits and better setup and not only for to be a smoother track.

I expect good update of package and qualy minium in third row.Race pace on dry track with low ride heigh is very good like all saw in Sepang race. :stoned:

Keep the faith!! Roll on to China!!


#3798 f1rookie

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 18:45


McLaren to challenge Redbull in China

McLaren is trying to roll out upgrades expected to be worth more than three-tenth of a second per lap at the Chinese Grand Prix this coming weekend...

http://www.formula1o...l-in-china.html






#3799 Mc_Silver

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 18:55

McLaren to challenge Redbull in China

McLaren is trying to roll out upgrades expected to be worth more than three-tenth of a second per lap at the Chinese Grand Prix this coming weekend...

http://www.formula1o...l-in-china.html


We need at least half a second improvement as others won't standstill. It is better than nothing at least let's hope all of the upgrades will work as expected :)


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#3800 SCUDmissile

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 19:05

McLaren to challenge Redbull in China

McLaren is trying to roll out upgrades expected to be worth more than three-tenth of a second per lap at the Chinese Grand Prix this coming weekend...

http://www.formula1o...l-in-china.html

I don't expect McLaren to not be fast for long, and they should make a massive step in China, but that article is trash. It is just a blog post with no quotes or sources apart from 'McLaren sources'