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McLaren MP4-28


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#3801 JRizzle86

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 21:40

McLaren to challenge Redbull in China

McLaren is trying to roll out upgrades expected to be worth more than three-tenth of a second per lap at the Chinese Grand Prix this coming weekend...

http://www.formula1o...l-in-china.html


As much as i wish that was true, that is an atrociously written article.

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#3802 Maustinsj

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 21:51

As much as i wish that was true, that is an atrociously written article.


It reads like a 12 year-old wrote it - a poorly educated one at that.

#3803 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 22:34

I guess you didn't work out the date of the article

#3804 scheivlak

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 23:30

I guess you didn't work out the date of the article

So horrendous grammatical errors are also part of the April 1 legacy?

Or are you the author defending that article :p

#3805 Owen

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:19

@JensonButton: Morning, full day of sim work today with @DaveRobsonF1 @Tom_Stallard 2 get a better understanding of the car & prep work the next 2 GP's.

#3806 jrg19

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:40

Just been listening to this podcast;
http://www.jamesalle...arens-problems/
Mark Gillan reckons problems relate to suspension and therefore this won't be a quick fix. Which contradicts those who say the issues are purely aero.
I'm confused.


I think its a mix of both, I'm not sure the front wing design is working well with the new suspension. If anyone can fix a problem like this its McLaren :up:

#3807 Mc_Silver

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:14

Jenson Button: 'I can still win F1 title'
http://www.sportsmol...itle_77328.html
http://www1.skysport...s/12479/8613112?

"It's a massive turnaround for us. Most of the race in Sepang we were quicker than the Lotus. Most of the race we were quicker than Ferrari. Who would have thought that five days before? We are still not where we want to be and we got a bit lucky with the circuit being so smooth which helped a bit but a lot is understanding where the downforce is.


Edited by Mc_Silver, 02 April 2013 - 09:23.


#3808 Schey07

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 14:49

Jenson Button: 'I can still win F1 title'
http://www.sportsmol...itle_77328.html
http://www1.skysport...s/12479/8613112?


Let's not get our hopes up. McLaren had the best car last year and the drivers finished nowhere in the world drivers championship.

I would take 3rd in the constructors right now.

#3809 JRizzle86

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 17:14

I guess you didn't work out the date of the article


If that is meant to be an April fool the writer has misunderstood the purpose of an April fool let alone basic grammar and spelling.

#3810 Peter Perfect

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 19:40

http://www1.skysport...Laren-s-season-
...
The team believes it learned a lot about why the detachment problem is arising from on-the-hoof modifications made in Sepang, including crudely 'cutting and shutting' the contours of the diffuser, in order to energise the flow better around the crucial areas where it is detaching.
...

Hopefully a slightly more refined version of the Sepang modifications will result in a more predictable car, even if the root cause is still a bit of an unknown (to me at least).

#3811 chumma

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 19:51

I know this is off topic, but it does involve the 28, so i will just share this quickly. I had a dream last night, and in that dream, McLaren came to China, and completely botched the upgrades and were left doing the "the parts aren't working and we don't know why" please tell me this wasn't a premonition!

#3812 chumma

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 19:54

Hopefully a slightly more refined version of the Sepang modifications will result in a more predictable car, even if the root cause is still a bit of an unknown (to me at least).

They will definitely have a 'refined' solution to the Malaysia on the go parts. I am also hopefuly, that after using the on the go pieces they modified at the track, they learnt even more, and will further develop on what they already found, plus other developments at the front of the car (that I am expecting, no confirmation there though) then I think we have reason to be optimistic to be top 5 come quali, with a strong race day! Button goes well around here too :)

#3813 Gintonious

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 19:56

McLaren will win a race this year, it's just a question of when.

#3814 chumma

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 20:07

McLaren will win a race this year, it's just a question of when.

If they can gain the .3 a lap that I read in an article (which one, im not sure) then if they achieve that in China, I think they can fight for the win there already, this car will be like the 24, once they work one thing out, everything will start snowballing and time will come to the car quickly and easily.

#3815 Owen

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 20:15

@AdrianF007: 9 days to the Chinese GP and I'm sure @SChecoPerez and @TheFifthDriver will be stronger

#3816 OO7

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 21:20

@AdrianF007: 9 days to the Chinese GP and I'm sure @SChecoPerez and @TheFifthDriver will be stronger

:confused:

#3817 chumma

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 04:43

:confused:

The Grand Prix isn't this weekend its next

#3818 Timstr11

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 06:00

:confused:

Not a strange comment.
@AdrianF007 is Perez's manager and the gp weekend starts on thursday for drivers.

Edited by Timstr11, 03 April 2013 - 06:00.


#3819 bauss

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 12:43

old habits die hard, just like LH's pitstop snafu last race, by default when I visit the forums, first thing I click on is this thread...

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#3820 Owen

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:48

Rehash of the doom and gloom predictions from the James Allen podcast:
http://www.jamesalle...me-time-to-fix/

Hope it's a flawed analysis. :well:

#3821 JRizzle86

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:01

Rehash of the doom and gloom predictions from the James Allen podcast:
http://www.jamesalle...me-time-to-fix/

Hope it's a flawed analysis. :well:


Think that was James backup story when he accidently posted the Lotus April fools story. But to be honest i think Williams have enough problems without feeling the need to comment on the engineering capability of others.

#3822 nosecone

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 13:30

If they can gain the .3 a lap that I read in an article (which one, im not sure) then if they achieve that in China, I think they can fight for the win there already, this car will be like the 24, once they work one thing out, everything will start snowballing and time will come to the car quickly and easily.

but in 2009 they had a gain of 1s due to the DD. This year it wont be that easy

#3823 Owen

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 15:39

Nice cover

Posted Image

#3824 Slartibartfast

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 15:49

Nice cover

Posted Image

That probably means their new sponsor is Bob the Builder...

#3825 rodlamas

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 17:07

Nice cover

Posted Image


So what does it say?

#3826 maverick69

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 17:18

So what does it say?


"In hindsight......."

#3827 Wingnut

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 17:21

"In hindsight......."


:lol:


#3828 muramasa

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 17:24


"Hondas"

#3829 Peter Perfect

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 18:45

Rehash of the doom and gloom predictions from the James Allen podcast:
http://www.jamesalle...me-time-to-fix/

Hope it's a flawed analysis. :well:

From what he's saying if it really is the suspension that's the issue (worst case scenario) and they need to move the pick-up points then Spain would be the GP to target (surely a patch job would be a solution given the amount of work they'll have preparing for next year). That's not the worst thing in the world considering their performance in the last GP is hopefully a sign that they could pick up some decent points in the next few races. The best case scenario is that it is an aero problem and they make decent inroads into solving the problem in China.

Either way I'm confident that McLaren will pull out all the stops to track down and solve whatever the issue is. The key, as has been said, is that they understand what the root cause is.

#3830 ZooL

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 20:06

"In hindsight......."

Cracking :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#3831 BigCHrome

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 20:08

So which remaining tracks are smooth and which tracks are bumpier?

#3832 ZooL

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 20:18

So which remaining tracks are smooth and which tracks are bumpier?

McLaren have always had a very stiff car for 3 years now, not convinced a bumpy track is going to make a difference. None of them are that bumpy anyway, there race tracks, not roads.

And I don't buy that McLaren with all their racing heritage designed a car that dislikes bumps, thats a real disservice to the team.

#3833 Markn93

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 20:25

McLaren have always had a very stiff car for 3 years now, not convinced a bumpy track is going to make a difference. None of them are that bumpy anyway, there race tracks, not roads.

And I don't buy that McLaren with all their racing heritage designed a car that dislikes bumps, thats a real disservice to the team.

Monaco? Singapore?

But the next couple are very smooth, China and Bahrain.

#3834 BillBald

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 22:33

McLaren have always had a very stiff car for 3 years now, not convinced a bumpy track is going to make a difference. None of them are that bumpy anyway, there race tracks, not roads.

And I don't buy that McLaren with all their racing heritage designed a car that dislikes bumps, thats a real disservice to the team.


I understand that the bumps are a problem, because the aero is hyper-sensitive and will only work with a very specific ride-height.

The aero itself is clearly deficient, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to bring improvements by taking a hacksaw to aero parts.

Now they've had time to analyse the problem, I will be very disappointed if we don't see a big improvement in China. But for the car to work as intended, we may have to wait a while.



#3835 BigCHrome

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:50

McLaren have always had a very stiff car for 3 years now, not convinced a bumpy track is going to make a difference. None of them are that bumpy anyway, there race tracks, not roads.

And I don't buy that McLaren with all their racing heritage designed a car that dislikes bumps, thats a real disservice to the team.


Of course the bumps are a problem. Compare McLaren's performance at Australia (bumpy) to Sepang.

McLaren have had a stiff car before as well, but it looks like this one is more extreme and sensitive to changes in ride height.

#3836 pingu666

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 03:46

didnt it bounce around in melbourne? thats probably getting the shock package, and some spring rate wrong

#3837 BigCHrome

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:05

didnt it bounce around in melbourne? thats probably getting the shock package, and some spring rate wrong


Bounced around due to stiff springs. Stiff springs are to ensure that ride height is consistent for the aero to work efficiently.

#3838 V3TT3L

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 04:11

JA / Mark Gillan says it will take 90 days or until Canada GP to fix car problems. :eek:

http://www.jamesalle...me-time-to-fix/

#3839 Owen

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:31

JA / Mark Gillan says it will take 90 days or until Canada GP to fix car problems. :eek:

http://www.jamesalle...me-time-to-fix/

Lets see. Im not so sure.

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#3840 rodlamas

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:01

JA / Mark Gillan says it will take 90 days or until Canada GP to fix car problems. :eek:

http://www.jamesalle...me-time-to-fix/


This will happen if they have to change the suspension mounting points, which is something they are supposing. So let's not get that worried. For the moment.;)

#3841 maverick69

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:16

Didn't Lotus have to change its suspension mountings last year? Everyone was saying it would take ages etc - but they turned it around pretty quickly.

#3842 Lazy

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 10:23

Didn't Lotus have to change its suspension mountings last year? Everyone was saying it would take ages etc - but they turned it around pretty quickly.

Indeed, a temporary bodge job, whilst adding a little weight, could help until they build a whole new chassis.

#3843 MirNyet

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:45

Didn't Lotus have to change its suspension mountings last year? Everyone was saying it would take ages etc - but they turned it around pretty quickly.


That was simply to add more strength to the pick up point, complete different to moving the pick ups.

#3844 Owen

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 11:56

McLaren Preview of China GP 'a reboot to the start of the season'
http://f1elvis.com/mclaren/

"The three-week break between rounds two and three has been a useful one; we have been fully engaged in further developing our understanding of the MP4-28 and are confident of being able to implement a number of changes this weekend that will widen its operating window and, potentially, improve its performance."
Martin Whitmarsh

"We know where we’re losing performance, so I think we’re actually all looking forward to seeing just what we can achieve in Shanghai."
Jenson Button

"For me, it’s been incredible to not only see the speed of the team’s reaction, but also the positive way that everyone has pulled together to make those changes. It’s been an incredible team effort."
Sergio Perez

Edited by Owen, 05 April 2013 - 12:00.


#3845 MirNyet

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:47

Since we know they cannot have made a new tub in the time they have had since the last race, what are peoples thoughts on what new pieces/changes, we are going to see on the car come Friday considering that they have said they have found something and addressed it?

Front wing pieces,
New barge boards,
Winglets under the nose,
Re-profiled suspension arms,
Different rockers/Torsion bars,
Changes to the floor,
Re-profiled diffuser?

Or do you think it is going to be set up related?



#3846 Owen

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:46

Since we know they cannot have made a new tub in the time they have had since the last race, what are peoples thoughts on what new pieces/changes, we are going to see on the car come Friday considering that they have said they have found something and addressed it?

Front wing pieces,
New barge boards,
Winglets under the nose,
Re-profiled suspension arms,
Different rockers/Torsion bars,
Changes to the floor,
Re-profiled diffuser?

Or do you think it is going to be set up related?

Definitely a new floor! And possibly a revised front wing. But that's an armchair guess!


#3847 Peter Perfect

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:55

Since we know they cannot have made a new tub in the time they have had since the last race, what are peoples thoughts on what new pieces/changes, we are going to see on the car come Friday considering that they have said they have found something and addressed it?

Front wing pieces,
New barge boards,
Winglets under the nose,
Re-profiled suspension arms,
Different rockers/Torsion bars,
Changes to the floor,
Re-profiled diffuser
?

Or do you think it is going to be set up related?

They'd be my guesses as to the most important changes they'll make given what they were hacking at in Malaysia. Other new pieces may be added as part of normal planned upgrades (presumably they'll have checked back at base to make sure they still work given their new understanding of the car!)

#3848 JaredS

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:11

Sounds like McLaren believe the issue is mostly downforce related i.e flow around the rear to seal the diffuser not working as expected. However Mark Gillan's comments are interesting in that he believes the issue is mostly mechanical, suspension related. McLaren haven't denied this, but all their comments seem to imply aero fix rather than suspension even though they have acknowledged problems with ride. Coming from Gillan, it's hard not to take it seriously.

Also another interesting point is that downforce doesn't seem to be key to performance so far. Ok maybe for qualifying, but not for race and in fact Newey has said he believes too much downforce is actually hurting the tyres during the race. The performance of Force India etc also seems to imply the same. For race pace on this year's Pirelli's, it seems mechanical package is far more important than aero.

#3849 BillBald

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 15:49

Sounds like McLaren believe the issue is mostly downforce related i.e flow around the rear to seal the diffuser not working as expected. However Mark Gillan's comments are interesting in that he believes the issue is mostly mechanical, suspension related. McLaren haven't denied this, but all their comments seem to imply aero fix rather than suspension even though they have acknowledged problems with ride. Coming from Gillan, it's hard not to take it seriously.

Also another interesting point is that downforce doesn't seem to be key to performance so far. Ok maybe for qualifying, but not for race and in fact Newey has said he believes too much downforce is actually hurting the tyres during the race. The performance of Force India etc also seems to imply the same. For race pace on this year's Pirelli's, it seems mechanical package is far more important than aero.


Downforce needs above all to be consistent, and I suspect that's not the case with the 28. They would probably settle for less peak downforce, if it's going to be at a fairly similar level all the time. So I think that the first problems they want to solve will be aero-related, then they might want to look at what the setup is doing to the tyres.



#3850 Peter Perfect

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 16:39

Downforce needs above all to be consistent, and I suspect that's not the case with the 28. They would probably settle for less peak downforce, if it's going to be at a fairly similar level all the time. So I think that the first problems they want to solve will be aero-related, then they might want to look at what the setup is doing to the tyres.

Yep. Actually thinking about their relatively good pace in wet conditions it makes me wonder if that was down to less movement in the attitude of the car as opposed to a higher ride height (which was what was thought at the time). With less harsh braking/accelerating/cornering the attitude of the car wouldn't be as extreme and so there's a higher chance that the car would stay in the optimum aero window. Maybe that provides us with a bit of insight into what the peak downforce of the car is? With McLaren making changes to the diffuser in Malaysia I'm guessing they widened the performance window at the expense of peak downforce, which would result in a more manageable car in the dry but a less competitive one in the wet.