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McLaren MP4-28


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#3851 Peter Perfect

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 18:55

Since we know they cannot have made a new tub in the time they have had since the last race, what are peoples thoughts on what new pieces/changes, we are going to see on the car come Friday considering that they have said they have found something and addressed it?

Front wing pieces,
New barge boards,
Winglets under the nose,
Re-profiled suspension arms,
Different rockers/Torsion bars,
Changes to the floor,
Re-profiled diffuser
?

Or do you think it is going to be set up related?

They'd be my guesses as to the most important changes they'll make given what they were hacking at in Malaysia. Other new pieces may be added as part of normal planned upgrades (presumably they'll have checked back at base to make sure they still work given their new understanding of the car!)

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#3852 JaredS

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:11

Sounds like McLaren believe the issue is mostly downforce related i.e flow around the rear to seal the diffuser not working as expected. However Mark Gillan's comments are interesting in that he believes the issue is mostly mechanical, suspension related. McLaren haven't denied this, but all their comments seem to imply aero fix rather than suspension even though they have acknowledged problems with ride. Coming from Gillan, it's hard not to take it seriously.

Also another interesting point is that downforce doesn't seem to be key to performance so far. Ok maybe for qualifying, but not for race and in fact Newey has said he believes too much downforce is actually hurting the tyres during the race. The performance of Force India etc also seems to imply the same. For race pace on this year's Pirelli's, it seems mechanical package is far more important than aero.

#3853 BillBald

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 15:49

Sounds like McLaren believe the issue is mostly downforce related i.e flow around the rear to seal the diffuser not working as expected. However Mark Gillan's comments are interesting in that he believes the issue is mostly mechanical, suspension related. McLaren haven't denied this, but all their comments seem to imply aero fix rather than suspension even though they have acknowledged problems with ride. Coming from Gillan, it's hard not to take it seriously.

Also another interesting point is that downforce doesn't seem to be key to performance so far. Ok maybe for qualifying, but not for race and in fact Newey has said he believes too much downforce is actually hurting the tyres during the race. The performance of Force India etc also seems to imply the same. For race pace on this year's Pirelli's, it seems mechanical package is far more important than aero.


Downforce needs above all to be consistent, and I suspect that's not the case with the 28. They would probably settle for less peak downforce, if it's going to be at a fairly similar level all the time. So I think that the first problems they want to solve will be aero-related, then they might want to look at what the setup is doing to the tyres.



#3854 Peter Perfect

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 16:39

Downforce needs above all to be consistent, and I suspect that's not the case with the 28. They would probably settle for less peak downforce, if it's going to be at a fairly similar level all the time. So I think that the first problems they want to solve will be aero-related, then they might want to look at what the setup is doing to the tyres.

Yep. Actually thinking about their relatively good pace in wet conditions it makes me wonder if that was down to less movement in the attitude of the car as opposed to a higher ride height (which was what was thought at the time). With less harsh braking/accelerating/cornering the attitude of the car wouldn't be as extreme and so there's a higher chance that the car would stay in the optimum aero window. Maybe that provides us with a bit of insight into what the peak downforce of the car is? With McLaren making changes to the diffuser in Malaysia I'm guessing they widened the performance window at the expense of peak downforce, which would result in a more manageable car in the dry but a less competitive one in the wet.

#3855 Raziel

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 17:28

Ok so we'll see a lot of new parts/changes for the car in China but there's one thing that bothers me...was this big China upgrade package planned from the start and mainly for the China or was this originally planned for traditional big Barcelona upgrade but because of unexpected problems with the car they rushed to bring it in China and they'll be without new parts in Barcelona?

#3856 Owen

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 18:49

Ok so we'll see a lot of new parts/changes for the car in China but there's one thing that bothers me...was this big China upgrade package planned from the start and mainly for the China or was this originally planned for traditional big Barcelona upgrade but because of unexpected problems with the car they rushed to bring it in China and they'll be without new parts in Barcelona?

I don't think any of the progress up to this point has been planned! Too busy fighting fires right now I would have thought.

#3857 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 21:49

Bounced around due to stiff springs. Stiff springs are to ensure that ride height is consistent for the aero to work efficiently.


Exactly. All systems are connected but not all are equally important. Aero -> Suspension.

#3858 dave34m

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 23:30

If they had submitted a new chassis for testing would it be known publicly or are these things done in absolute privacy.

#3859 BillBald

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 00:04

Yep. Actually thinking about their relatively good pace in wet conditions it makes me wonder if that was down to less movement in the attitude of the car as opposed to a higher ride height (which was what was thought at the time). With less harsh braking/accelerating/cornering the attitude of the car wouldn't be as extreme and so there's a higher chance that the car would stay in the optimum aero window. Maybe that provides us with a bit of insight into what the peak downforce of the car is? With McLaren making changes to the diffuser in Malaysia I'm guessing they widened the performance window at the expense of peak downforce, which would result in a more manageable car in the dry but a less competitive one in the wet.


The puzzling thing is that in Oz they seemed to be really struggling on the full wets in Q1, then they put on the inters and suddenly they had good pace. I noticed that they were in a lot of traffic earlier in the session, but it did seem that the different ride-height on inters might have accidentally helped with the aero problem. Ride-height on full wets is different to both slicks and inters, of course.



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#3860 Mc_Silver

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 09:54

If they had submitted a new chassis for testing would it be known publicly or are these things done in absolute privacy.


They are in absolute privacy for sure but we have seen some leakages before so it could go either way :)

#3861 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 19:04

Since we know they cannot have made a new tub in the time they have had since the last race, what are peoples thoughts on what new pieces/changes, we are going to see on the car come Friday considering that they have said they have found something and addressed it?

Front wing pieces,
New barge boards,
Winglets under the nose,
Re-profiled suspension arms,
Different rockers/Torsion bars,
Changes to the floor,
Re-profiled diffuser?

Or do you think it is going to be set up related?


This parts needs a dry weekend on this smooth track.

Seems will be a dry weekend to test new parts.

Keep the Faith! :cat:

#3862 chhatra

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:31

[url="http://"http://%20<a%20href="http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106602""%20target="_blank">http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106602"</a>"]McLaren sure it has pinpointed issues[/url]

Looks promising. China can't come soon enough.

Edited by chhatra, 09 April 2013 - 10:37.


#3863 Neomaster121

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:54

[url="http://"http://%20&lt;a%20href="http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106602""%20target="_blank"&gt;http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106602"&lt;/a&gt;"]McLaren sure it has pinpointed issues[/url]

Looks promising. China can't come soon enough.

after reading that sounds more like managing the issues better until they can make a fundamental change he talks about identifying the key areas but then says theirs no magic bullet... don't get your hopes up just yet tbh

#3864 Owen

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:58

[url="http://"http://%20&lt;a%20href="http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106602""%20target="_blank"&gt;http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106602"&lt;/a&gt;"]McLaren sure it has pinpointed issues[/url]

Looks promising. China can't come soon enough.

"Obviously it's not an ideal start, we can't shy away from that, but I believe in this team and this car."
:clap:

#3865 FastnLoud

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:39

Main update is the floor and suspension parts.

I might even go stick £10 on Jenson getting on the podium :up:

#3866 Mc_Silver

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:42

It is nice to know they are confident that they know the problems and working pretty hard to fix them. I think podium result in China would be great achievement and huge boost for everyone.

Keep pushing guys :up:

#3867 Treads

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:05

Main update is the floor and suspension parts.

I might even go stick £10 on Jenson getting on the podium :up:


You'd get excellent odds too.

Such a shame JB had that wheel issue in Malaysia, I would have loved to see if he could hustle the Mercedes a bit, even if he didn't overtake either of them.



#3868 Raziel

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:32

[url="http://"http://%20&lt;a%20href="http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106602""%20target="_blank"&gt;http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106602"&lt;/a&gt;"]McLaren sure it has pinpointed issues[/url]

Looks promising. China can't come soon enough.

I just hope that it'll be sunny and dry because this friday will be crucial! :/

#3869 Owen

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:33

I just hope that it'll be sunny and dry because this friday will be crucial! :/

yeh. That is true.

#3870 FastnLoud

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:41

It is looking good but...

Martin "Pitstop issues now sorted"

Next race

Martin "The pitstop maybe lost us a podium"


:rotfl:

#3871 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:49

[url="http://"http://%20&lt;a%20href="http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106602""%20target="_blank"&gt;http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106602"&lt;/a&gt;"]McLaren sure it has pinpointed issues[/url]

Looks promising. China can't come soon enough.

But BBC reports "McLaren say they have identified weaknesses with their 2013 car"

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22076363

Wich story should we believe?

#3872 pacificquay

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:59

But BBC reports "McLaren say they have identified weaknesses with their 2013 car"

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22076363

Wich story should we believe?



Why is it a choice? Both stories are saying the same thing.

#3873 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:02

Exact same thing.

#3874 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:05

I was just kidding ;) Love the change in headline though. Good for McLaren that they seem to have found the problem. Hopefully well see a stronger car this weekend.

#3875 mclarensmps

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:05

But BBC reports "McLaren say they have identified weaknesses with their 2013 car"

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22076363

Wich story should we believe?


As always, the reality is somewhere in between the two. The great thing, about this, though, is that it's definitely not a crisis situation with no end in sight for this season.

#3876 chumma

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:22

As always, the reality is somewhere in between the two. The great thing, about this, though, is that it's definitely not a crisis situation with no end in sight for this season.

Quite calming after the Aus debacle.

#3877 jjcale

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:09

As always, the reality is somewhere in between the two. The great thing, about this, though, is that it's definitely not a crisis situation with no end in sight for this season.


Was it ever a crisis? was the car really as bad as it looked in Aus?

.... less than a week later it looked reasonably competitive.... yes in different conditions - but without anything much being done to it.

Now they have time to do some more sim work and build some new parts and understand the car a bit better... I expect much better from Macca than we saw in Aus going forward.

#3878 Obi Offiah

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:42

Things are definitely looking on the up regarding developments and solving the current problems. The smooth/smoother nature of the Shanghai circuit should also be a benefit and help to buy the team some more time to fix the car.

#3879 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:42

Things are definitely looking on the up regarding developments and solving the current problems. The smooth/smoother nature of the Shanghai circuit should also be a benefit and help to buy the team some more time to fix the car.


Is Shanghai that much smoother though? I think performance wise it was encouraging to see the mp4-28 was up there with Mercedes, but if I was McLaren I wouldnt be happy until the 28 matches the results of the 27 vs the red bulls.

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#3880 Force Ten

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:42

but if I was McLaren I wouldnt be happy until the 28 matches the results of the 27 vs the red bulls.

What makes you think they are?

#3881 Lights

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 13:10

Emerson Fittipaldi: "..Throughout the 1974 season, except at Interlagos for some reason, the M23 had been a handful on bumpy circuits. For instance I’d won at Nivelles, which was very smooth and flat, but I’d struggled at Dijon, with its ups and downs and twists and turns...."

40 years on... :D

#3882 Force Ten

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 14:42

Emerson Fittipaldi: "..Throughout the 1974 season, except at Interlagos for some reason, the M23 had been a handful on bumpy circuits. For instance I’d won at Nivelles, which was very smooth and flat, but I’d struggled at Dijon, with its ups and downs and twists and turns...."

40 years on... :D

Apparently Peter Collins has said something in accord of "Every suspension works if you don't let it to."

#3883 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 15:19

What makes you think they are?


Good point! :)

#3884 Force Ten

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 17:05

Okay. Here's a theory. Pat Fry thinks the pullrod is genius idea. He goes on and on about it, never shutting up. Draws diagrams, explains how they can save 30 grams in the center of gravity and how his calculations show that it can give them 0,9 % more of peak downforce. That they can harvest in straight line tests. On a runway. Three times a year. Finally he manages to sorta stop Paddy Lowe saying "shut up, Pat! You are an idiot. Go grab a cookie and continue working!" So something had sunk in.

Pat then splits to Ferrari and designs a car with a pullrod. It sucks. And it takes them half a season to get it working, sorta. In the meantime McLaren is deep in the midst of designing their 2013 contender and furious arguments are going on. Should they hone the reasonably working 27 design or go all out all new concept? And then... A lightbulb flicks on in Paddy's head. He ain't gonna be around for '13 anymore. Contract ending and... the other Fry guy, Nick was on and on about the cashpiles that were just not fitting anymore under the couch of Ross Brawn's office. Also, what was that he said that if he could somehow help Mercs already in '13 that contribution would not go unnoticed. So as if a record would have changed, suddenly Paddy sez: "You know fellas. I have been thinking here. I think we're gonna have to go with pullrod. - Shut up Tim! I know you are the designer, well you can get the credit but I am still calling the shots here! No, Martin, it's gonna be fine. Really it is. I have these calculations here (scribbles on the board) that prove that we can lower the center of gravity by 30 grams and we can get 0,9 to 1,2 percent more of peak downforce! Ferrari just got their math wrong!"

Late in the evening Nick Fry's gonna get a call. "Hi. Paddy's here. Yeah. Fine. Listen, pullrod is a go, pullrod is a go..... /pause/ yeah, unmarked envelope, mostly smaller bills. I will make sure I am not followed. Sure. 11.30 right? Cheerio!"

Edited by Force Ten, 10 April 2013 - 17:08.


#3885 senna da silva

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:06

Okay. Here's a theory. Pat Fry thinks the pullrod is genius idea. He goes on and on about it, never shutting up. Draws diagrams, explains how they can save 30 grams in the center of gravity and how his calculations show that it can give them 0,9 % more of peak downforce. That they can harvest in straight line tests. On a runway. Three times a year. Finally he manages to sorta stop Paddy Lowe saying "shut up, Pat! You are an idiot. Go grab a cookie and continue working!" So something had sunk in.

Pat then splits to Ferrari and designs a car with a pullrod. It sucks. And it takes them half a season to get it working, sorta. In the meantime McLaren is deep in the midst of designing their 2013 contender and furious arguments are going on. Should they hone the reasonably working 27 design or go all out all new concept? And then... A lightbulb flicks on in Paddy's head. He ain't gonna be around for '13 anymore. Contract ending and... the other Fry guy, Nick was on and on about the cashpiles that were just not fitting anymore under the couch of Ross Brawn's office. Also, what was that he said that if he could somehow help Mercs already in '13 that contribution would not go unnoticed. So as if a record would have changed, suddenly Paddy sez: "You know fellas. I have been thinking here. I think we're gonna have to go with pullrod. - Shut up Tim! I know you are the designer, well you can get the credit but I am still calling the shots here! No, Martin, it's gonna be fine. Really it is. I have these calculations here (scribbles on the board) that prove that we can lower the center of gravity by 30 grams and we can get 0,9 to 1,2 percent more of peak downforce! Ferrari just got their math wrong!"

Late in the evening Nick Fry's gonna get a call. "Hi. Paddy's here. Yeah. Fine. Listen, pullrod is a go, pullrod is a go..... /pause/ yeah, unmarked envelope, mostly smaller bills. I will make sure I am not followed. Sure. 11.30 right? Cheerio!"


:rotfl: Even funnier if true! :rotfl:

#3886 loki0420

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:23

http://www.mclaren.c...te-2013-season/

Great news, but does it leave door open for them for title sponsorship next year or we still anticipating Telmex?

#3887 Owen

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:22

http://www.mclaren.c...te-2013-season/

Great news, but does it leave door open for them for title sponsorship next year or we still anticipating Telmex?

That is good. :up: There's a separate thread devoted to the title sponsorship. A number of companies appear to have been suggested. All speculation though.

#3888 JRizzle86

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:01

http://www.mclaren.c...te-2013-season/

Great news, but does it leave door open for them for title sponsorship next year or we still anticipating Telmex?


They have already confirmed they have a new title sponsor for 2014. Not sure Gillette is connected to that, but great to see new sponsor to the team. Having Glaxo Smith Kline, and now Proctor and Gamble on board as two recent partner additions can only be a good thing.

Edited by JRizzle86, 11 April 2013 - 09:04.


#3889 Enkei

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:13

http://www.mclaren.c...te-2013-season/

Great news, but does it leave door open for them for title sponsorship next year or we still anticipating Telmex?


:rotfl: at that picture of Jenson. All of a sudden his cheeks are smooth as baby bums.

#3890 10e10

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:37

That is good. :up: There's a separate thread devoted to the title sponsorship. A number of companies appear to have been suggested. All speculation though.


I guess they won't be the title sponsor, but it's always good to see that this team is still attractive to sponsors.

#3891 Raziel

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:31

:rotfl: at that picture of Jenson. All of a sudden his cheeks are smooth as baby bums.


I noticed that too!! :rotfl: :lol:

anyway new sponsor/partner is always a good thing!  ;)

#3892 bogi

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:33

Now I need to shave my mustaches ): :lol:

#3893 chumma

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:00

I wonder where the Gilette logo will be, on the engine cover above Mercedes Benz? Or is that gone now ( cant remember ) or hopefully on the backside of the rear wing, its been blank for years now! and Tooned doesnt count.

#3894 loki0420

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:19

I wonder where the Gilette logo will be, on the engine cover above Mercedes Benz? Or is that gone now ( cant remember ) or hopefully on the backside of the rear wing, its been blank for years now! and Tooned doesnt count.

I would like it in front of sidepods where Aigo used to be but won't mind having it on RW also.

#3895 JRizzle86

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:35

Posted Image

McLaren setting up the MP4-28 in China.

Edited by JRizzle86, 11 April 2013 - 12:36.


#3896 Clatter

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:36

I would like it in front of sidepods where Aigo used to be but won't mind having it on RW also.


Why would you care where it goes?


#3897 Seanspeed

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 14:40

"I think the one thing that surprised us is that nobody else has gone our route. We're the only team to do that; we expected all of the top teams to do the same thing so we didn't think that we would have lost anything at the first race. We thought that the smaller teams would probably keep the same tub, go in the same direction just slightly improve through the winter and they would be competitive at the first race. We didn't expect for most teams - well all teams apart from us - to go in the same direction, so that's what has hurt us. It's hurt us in terms of a lot of points but the championship is still completely open; there are still 18 races to go and if we can turn it around in a few races and be fighting at the front that's very encouraging for the rest of the season.

When it was put to Button that McLaren's rivals might not be able to develop their cars as quickly, he replied: "I don't think they will be that much, I don't think they will. For us, yes I think that is possible."


http://www.espn.co.u...ory/105136.html

What does Button mean by 'our route'? He seems to be surprised that others haven't done what they have, but what have Mclaren done so differently exactly? I dont get it. As far as I can tell, Mclaren are only coming in-line with what others were already doing. They're not doing anything new or radically different from others.

I also think he and Mclaren are severely underestimating the others in terms of development potential. Contrary to what they've been saying, not everybody else has done some soft evolution of their last car. The Mercedes, the Ferrari and the Lotus in particular have some pretty fundamental changes.

It just seems to me another case of Mclaren thinking they're just so clever compared to others. Not that their approach wont work out, cuz it might, but it comes across as quite arrogant writing off what other teams can do so easily.


#3898 TC3000

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 15:06

I think, he/they expected other teams to go down the front pull rod route as well, so that they would not be the only one (apart from Ferrari, who already made the move last year).
He perhaps "hoped" that then more of the top teams would be in the same boat, and trying to get on top of it, may dropping a race or two (under performing due to "wrong"/not optimal setup) in the process, so that no-one would "run away" with it. (championship lead)

#3899 One

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 15:11

Posted Image

McLaren setting up the MP4-28 in China.


Got Blown Brake Wheel ax?

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#3900 mclarensmps

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 15:40

It just seems to me another case of Mclaren thinking they're just so clever compared to others. Not that their approach wont work out, cuz it might, but it comes across as quite arrogant writing off what other teams can do so easily.


I fully agree with you on this, I don't know why they keep harping on about this, they need to focus on their own performance. This is a pretty silly attempt to cover up for the fact that they made a serious botch-up with something in the car, due to which they are trailing the sharper end of the pack