1489 replies to this topic

[Gilles4Ever]

http://www.auto-moto...ck-7875876.html

 

The FIA ​​has verified a suspicion of BBC technology expert Gary Anderson in India. The former F1 engineer had assumed that the front runner of the Red Bull subfloor flexes upwards in the heat. That would be illegal.We will tell you how the unusual experiment proceeded.

 

Jo Bauer therefore had to make in India overtime. Of the FIA ​​technical delegate took among other things the car before the # first Sebastian Vettel's car. To create the reproach of the world, the front runner of the floor was heated with a burner at 300 ° C. Result: It does not move.Consequently, the Red Bull RB9 is legal. At least in this area.

 

[Crossmax]

And people say the FIA are too lenient on RBR... This sounds quite drastic?

[fastwriter]

The RBR haters don't need facts. They know it better than that.

[David1976]

The contrast between the Ferrari and the Red Bull is scary.

 

The former is conventionally low where the Red Bull has a huge amount of rake and a front wing considerably lower.

[EricSivry]

There was a gif that showed the 2 cars in comparison with each other. Ferrari has much higher and wider sipepods.

I like that red bull developed the same concept from the beginning. They clearly had an advantage in this set of regulations through the blown diffuser which Newey understands better than anyone else (he was the last designer to drop the concept in 2002 and only at the request of mario illien).

[V3TT3L]

Here's an article of PdRosa talking about Newey, the Party Animal, working method:

 

http://www.marca.com...1383044944.html

 

"Es conocido su método de trabajo, el de diseñar... bocetos." 

 'este es mi diseño y aquí tenéis que meterlo todo. No me importa cómo lo hagáis"

 

"es responsable, él y su equipo de colaboradores. De un 70% por un 30% del piloto"

[Kelateboy]

The next race is the Abu Dhabi GP. This was the scene 4 years ago after the race.

 

[encircled]

The next race is the Abu Dhabi GP. This was the scene 4 years ago after the race.

 

3 years ago mate, but nonetheless, an awesome scene for the team.

[encircled]

RBR starting the weekend with a low top speed gear ratio. Do you think they'll change it to a higher top speed ratio like they did in India or are they going to stick with this?

15 	2 	Mark Webber 	13:57:46 	311.6
16 	1 	Sebastian Vettel 	13:56:54 	311.5

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

[ReeVe]

RBR starting the weekend with a low top speed gear ratio. Do you think they'll change it to a higher top speed ratio like they did in India or are they going to stick with this?

15 	2 	Mark Webber 	13:57:46 	311.6
16 	1 	Sebastian Vettel 	13:56:54 	311.5

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

 

why would they? Unless they have an accident in quali like last year .... Abu Dhabi is all about leading from the front there's no need to sacrifice laptime for straightline speed

[Kelateboy]

RBR starting the weekend with a low top speed gear ratio. Do you think they'll change it to a higher top speed ratio like they did in India or are they going to stick with this?

15 	2 	Mark Webber 	13:57:46 	311.6
16 	1 	Sebastian Vettel 	13:56:54 	311.5 

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

 

I believe they will go for a slightly longer gearing for the race. Their top speed was slightly lower than it was last year, but they were running DDRS back then. But RBR could afford to take off some wings, and my opinion is that they will do just that for the qualy and race. A much higher topspeed will make qualifying much less important and overtaking on the 1st DRS zone easier.

 

I would like to see RBR running two different rear wings in FP2. Crunch the data overnight and decide the best option for saturday and sunday. 

[Yoshi]

Hope it's okay to post it here.

The german AMuS article is about the possible secret from RB - the interlinked suspension with roll-control

Full news here: http://www.auto-moto...le-7876407.html

[apoka]

@F1zone "Pirelli say optimal strategy is either Opt-Pri-Pri [pit lap 2 & 28] or Pri-Pri-Opt [pit lap 28 & 57]"

 

It's odd that this seemingly absurd prediction has turned out to be true. I'm not sure which other teams would have the nerve to actually run that strategy even if it is mathematically optimal.

[Kelateboy]

According to Skysports coverage during FP2, RBR changed Vettel's rear wing to a lower-downforce configuration before his runs on options. The speed trap did not show any improvement in the top speed. I could not find pictures detailing the differences between Webber and Vettel's rear wings.

[plumtree]

 

 

 

It looks to me that Webber runs a high DF rear wing - top part of INFINITI letters

 

 

 

It's odd that this seemingly absurd prediction has turned out to be true. I'm not sure which other teams would have the nerve to actually run that strategy even if it is mathematically optimal.

I'm not gonna lie. I had a brief moment of 'I told you so!'. 

Edited by plumtree, 02 November 2013 - 00:50.

[Kelateboy]

I believe Vettel ran a skinnier main plane with a shallower angle of attack, but I can't find a definitive picture to back this up. The end plates and the top flap looked the same on both cars.

[encircled]

This is probably not the best angle for RW comparison but I'll link it anyway. There are subtle differences between the two RW. Seb's RW seems more edgy than Mark's from this angle.

 

 

 

Hi-res

 

http://nextgen-auto....i-01nov/058.jpg

http://nextgen-auto....i-01nov/090.jpg

 

Edit: Here is a better comparison between the low-DF RW and the hi-DF RW.

 

 

Edited by encircled, 02 November 2013 - 07:33.

[Kelateboy]

 

Edit: Here is a better comparison between the low-DF RW and the hi-DF RW.

 

 

 

Can't make out whether it is a skinnier main plane or not from the picture, but definitely Vettel's RW main plane (1st picture) was run at a shallower angle. Notice that you could hardly read the "R" and "ll" letters on Vettel's wing, but they were clearly visible on Webber's.

 

Thanks @encircled for the efforts. We'll get to see which RW they will opt for in the free practice and qualifying today.

[lbennie]

hard to tell with them hopping the curbs like that

[plumtree]

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

1st Mas 319.6
14th Web 315.7
19th Vet 311.7
 

Only Webber went for a higher top speed. Webber's S2 was very strong on mediums. Vettel was faster in S3 by about the same margin. On softs, Webber didn't gain much in S2, while Vettel was more than 3 tenths faster in S3.

[encircled]

Front row lockout. Great lap by Mark! Hope they can make it a 1-2 tomorrow for the race.

[encircled]

Webber and Vettel went with the same gear ratio they had during FP3 so if Mark can make a good start and keep P1 after lap 1, he should be a favorite to win the race.

[discover23]

RedBull are truly impressive . Not too long ago Mercedes were the fastest cars on saturday.. That only lasted 7 races and now the Bulls are back on the top in qualifying and better than anyone else on race trim.
Watching the onboard from Vettel it seems like he is not even pushing the car 100% ..
Amazing really.

[Kelateboy]

Webber and Vettel went with the same gear ratio they had during FP3 so if Mark can make a good start and keep P1 after lap 1, he should be a favorite to win the race.

 

Vettel needs to get on top of Webber in the first few corners. After that, it will be a procession, and the race will be decided on who has the better strategy.

 

Would RBR give Vettel the chance to undercut Webber at the 1st pit stop? Or will Webber have the priority as he is typically harder on tyres?

 

Would Vettel go O/P/O, O/P/P or O/O/P for the race? A longer first and middle stints to replicate Suzuka?

 

It will be an entertaining race, nonetheless.

[CrucialXtreme]

I believe Vettel ran a skinnier main plane with a shallower angle of attack, but I can't find a definitive picture to back this up. The end plates and the top flap looked the same on both cars.

 

Mark used RW with 4 louvers in the endplate and Seb's RW had 5

 

VET

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 03 November 2013 - 07:01.

[encircled]

During the race simulations in FP2, Seb was around 0.7s faster than Mark with the soft tires per lap, although Mark did 17 laps on them including the two qualifying simulation runs on the tire while Seb did 14 laps including the two qualifying simulation runs. Data from medium stint is pretty small but pace may be similar between them on that one.

 

Should Mark stay ahead of Seb after lap 1, I believe Mark will get the pit stop priority for the race.

 

Both are looking good. I think they are at least 0.5s faster in race pace compared to Merc looking at FP2 data so it is vital for them to stay ahead of the Silver Arrows after lap 1.

[peroa]

During the race simulations in FP2, Seb was around 0.7s faster than Mark with the soft tires per lap, although Mark did 17 laps on them including the two qualifying simulation runs on the tire while Seb did 14 laps including the two qualifying simulation runs. Data from medium stint is pretty small but pace may be similar between them on that one.

 

Should Mark stay ahead of Seb after lap 1, I believe Mark will get the pit stop priority for the race.

 

Both are looking good. I think they are at least 0.5s faster in race pace compared to Merc looking at FP2 data so it is vital for them to stay ahead of the Silver Arrows after lap 1.

That will never, ever happen.

[Kelateboy]

RedBull are truly impressive . Not too long ago Mercedes were the fastest cars on saturday.. That only lasted 7 races and now the Bulls are back on the top in qualifying and better than anyone else on race trim.
Watching the onboard from Vettel it seems like he is not even pushing the car 100% ..
Amazing really.

 

He was pushing the car to its absolute limit and that was the main reason why he exceeded the track limit on the 1st corner of his 2nd flying lap in Q3. As Vettel himself said in the post Qualifying press conference :

 

SV: I was pushing hard, that's the reason behind it. Surely, I think, as a driver, you always argue that there is a little bit here, a little bit there but the bottom line is that if you look at it from the outside as well, if you push yourself to the maximum trying to get everything out then you do mistakes as well.......Overall, as I said, I was happy but didn't manage to get everything perfect. Whether it would have been enough, I don't know, Mark did a very good laps, so we'll see tomorrow.

[plumtree]

That will never, ever happen.

What do you mean? It has already happened in Japan. 

 

CH: "Vettel knew he wasn't going to get priority at that first stop because we'd discussed it before the race that the lead car would get the priority, so he was very smart in the way he handled the race. ..."

 

Actually it's the other way around. http://www.f1fanatic...nd-pit-stops-2/

 

Team principal Christian Horner said it was necessary to bring Webber in at this time because his tyres were beginning to fade. This is consistent with expectations: Vettel has usually been able to make his tyres last longer than Webber has this year. In dry races where both started on the same compound, Webber had to pit first eight times out of ten.

Edited by plumtree, 03 November 2013 - 08:41.

[Kelateboy]

 

One stop is theoretically the quickest approach to the 56-lap Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, irrespective of starting on the soft or the medium compound. So, if starting on the soft, we would expect drivers to change to the medium on lap 12 and then go to the end. Or if starting on the medium, change to the soft on lap 43 and then go to the end.

The optimal two-stop strategy is: start on the soft, change to the medium on lap nine, and a final stint on the medium from lap 32. - Pirelli Motorsport

 

Which strategy do you think RBR would adopt for both drivers? A split strategy would be the best bet to hedge against all possibilities, but might come under fire from those might feel that RBR are favoring one driver over the other.

 

What do you think? Will RBR go for a 2-stopper, 1-stopper or split strategy?

[encircled]

 

 

Which strategy do you think RBR would adopt for both drivers? A split strategy would be the best bet to hedge against all possibilities, but might come under fire from those might feel that RBR are favoring one driver over the other.

 

What do you think? Will RBR go for a 2-stopper, 1-stopper or split strategy?

 

I was actually thinking of this earlier, although I had decided not to post because I thought it was unlikely to happen but now that it has surfaced from Pirelli themselves...

 

I think Seb can go up to lap 13-15 if Mark will maintain his advantage after lap 1. Rocky will most likely advise Seb to maintain a 2s gap to Mark to preserve the tires and go for a longer stint. We know that the hotter temps at the start of the race would also favor the softs as it is in line with a higher working temperature compared to the medium, and the temps will cool down when the sun sets and should make the medium tires last longer and more in line to its operating temperature. I also think that with more rubber laid down on the track should help things with regards to tire life. The only caveat on this strategy is whether Mercedes will be able to undercut Seb should he decide to go for a 1-stopper and will get stuck behind them for a number of laps. I'm sure Mercedes will go with a 2-stopper and probably expect them to stop by around lap 9-11.

 

I am sure Lotus would try to do this strategy with Grosjean at the very least, especially if they get stuck behind Hulkenberg.

[Kelateboy]

I was actually thinking of this earlier, although I had decided not to post because I thought it was unlikely to happen but now that it has surfaced from Pirelli themselves...

 

I think Seb can go up to lap 13-15 if Mark will maintain his advantage after lap 1. Rocky will most likely advise Seb to maintain a 2s gap to Mark to preserve the tires and go for a longer stint. We know that the hotter temps at the start of the race would also favor the softs as it is in line with a higher working temperature compared to the medium, and the temps will cool down when the sun sets and should make the medium tires last longer and more in line to its operating temperature. I also think that with more rubber laid down on the track should help things with regards to tire life. The only caveat on this strategy is whether Mercedes will be able to undercut Seb should he decide to go for a 1-stopper and will get stuck behind them for a number of laps. I'm sure Mercedes will go with a 2-stopper and probably expect them to stop by around lap 9-11.

 

I am sure Lotus would try to do this strategy with Grosjean at the very least, especially if they get stuck behind Hulkenberg.

 

So you are thinking of a split strategy for the 2 RBR drivers with Vettel going for a 1-stopper and Webber for a 2-stopper?

 

Good point about the tyres longevity due to mediums and softs having different working temperature. Mediums working temperature according to Pirelli is 90C-115C, while softs has working temperature of 105C-125C. As you rightly pointed out, as the race goes on, mediums would be the tyres of choice. A 2-stopper by RBR drivers could mean options-new primes-new primes combination.

[encircled]

Well, looks like Seb could have done a 3-stopper and still win by a large margin.

 

Great results for the team!

 

[krobinson]

I thought the cars Newey designed from 2009-2012 were dominant. Little did I know he was capable of building a car that was 1,5 seconds per lap faster than any other car.

[George Costanza]

RB9 better than the RB6 and RB7? I think it is as of now....

[George Costanza]

I thought the cars Newey designed from 2009-2012 were dominant. Little did I know he was capable of building a car that was 1,5 seconds per lap faster than any other car.

 

 

Same as Williams from 1992-1997. Apart from Ayrton, Nigel and Alain the drivers were not of Seb's level or Fernando's level (except for Michael Schumacher at the time) could have they shown how truly fast those Williams were... 1992-1993 was quite insane. Much like 2011 and 2013.

[plumtree]

RB9 better than the RB6 and RB7? I think it is as of now....

I think one of the major reasons of their domination since the summer break is that other teams have stopped developing this year's cars for some time now, which wasn't the case in 2011. Admittedly Red Bull pushed a bit too much for the current car than they needed to.

[Kelateboy]

A great 37th win for Vettel. A processional race after a great start by Vettel and Webber getting stucked behind Rosberg for 20 laps. 

 

A masterful performance from the quadruple World Champion. He needs 2 more wins to get 9 straight wins to match Ascari's 1953 record.

[Crossmax]

RB9 better than the RB6 and RB7? I think it is as of now....

Now it is!

[FrancisDasilva]

TBH haven't been paying much attention to developments of cars the last couple of months, but does anyone know if Red Bull are running any form of DRD or stalling their beam wing etc ? As Ross Brawn commented on their straight lines speeds seem to have improved

[Kelateboy]

http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular

 

Mercedes thinks there are now clear warning signs that some of Red Bull's current dominance will carry over in to 2014.

 

Although the new engine regulations coming next year do offer fresh opportunity for Red Bull's rivals, Mercedes thinks a closer look at the steps forward the champion team has made in recent months suggest its advantage will not be completely wiped away.

 

........................................

[Kelateboy]

TBH haven't been paying much attention to developments of cars the last couple of months, but does anyone know if Red Bull are running any form of DRD or stalling their beam wing etc ? As Ross Brawn commented on their straight lines speeds seem to have improved

 

I don't think RBR have been running any DRD or passive DRS this year. They may have experimented a bit with the system in Barcelona winter testing, but nothing concrete came out of it nor anything resembling DRD was tested during free practices this year, AFAIK.

[F.M.]

Explanation of the difference between Vettel and Webber in Abu Dhabi:

 

Watching the cars through there during their long runs on Friday, the contrast between how the two Red Bulls were being driven was stark.

Vettel would enter a corner carrying a lot of momentum but was not trying to make the direction change all in one move; instead he'd let the car run out slightly wide after the apex, the speed still coming down and only then complete the turn. Normally, the slow exit this gives would damage the lap time but on a section of track where the gap between the turns was so small this was no longer the case. Only once the car was fully turned was he then getting clean and hard on the throttle and thereby the load on the rear tyres was minimised.

Webber by contrast was driving in a much more traditional and aggressive way, getting the direction change completed by the apex, carrying in a lot of speed and then trying to get as early and hard on the power as possible, even before the cornering load had come off the rear tyres. The car would accelerate out there, twitching and nervous as the rear tyres struggled to provide both cornering and tractive force at the same time. It was very quick - until the rear tyres overheated after a few laps.

 

The interesting point is that Vettel's technique here was not at all like how he normally drives the car. Usually, he accentuates the turn-in, getting the rear to slide wide before the apex, then standing on the throttle to use the exhaust flow to provide extra downforce that kills the rear end slide once it has accomplished the direction change. The key is Vettel's adaptability and his always-open mind about where the biggest area of advantage is on any given track in any given situation.

That blend of delicacy and dynamism is a Vettel speciality and has been rewarded extremely well during the Pirelli era because of the fragile nature of the tyres. In the days of more robust tyres, Webber was a master at maximising the braking grip and he remains slightly faster than Vettel through the high speed bends - a point that Vettel himself acknowledges. But Webber's all-out aggressive driving style has been punished hard by the more subtle requirements of the Pirellis.

http://www1.skysport...ck-in-abu-dhabi

[GreenMachine]

Explanation of the difference between Vettel and Webber in Abu Dhabi:

 

 

 

http://www1.skysport...ck-in-abu-dhabi

 

Interesting.  The difference between the two would be crystal clear in the data traces of the two cars.  Assuming Mark's side of the garage has access to Seb's data, this suggests that it is a case of 'old dogs, new tricks'.

 

I wonder how much time Mark has spent in the simulator trying variations of his natural game.

[Kelateboy]

Interesting.  The difference between the two would be crystal clear in the data traces of the two cars.  Assuming Mark's side of the garage has access to Seb's data, this suggests that it is a case of 'old dogs, new tricks'.

 

I wonder how much time Mark has spent in the simulator trying variations of his natural game.

 

We don't have the exact answer, but Webber definitely spend less time in the simulator compared to Sebastian.

[Matt Somers]

The whole situation regarding Red Bull's dominance since the switch to the 2012 construction tyres, their inconceivable level of Rake and the fact that mine and Gary's heat induced splitter deflection theories were debunked by the FIA's heat test still left me with a nagging doubt.  So I went back to the drawing board and even put other articles on hold, taking a new approach to what the Splitter was doing...

 

http://somersf1.blog...litterstay.html

 

It's by no means conclusive but I felt enough evidence was mounting to speculate that they are simulating a Mass Damper with the Splitter and Stay to write about it.  Based on the current feedback I will add that when you watch the video bear in mind that the Splitter doesn't come into contact with the ground yet the Stay goes bananas.

[RB1]

The whole situation regarding Red Bull's dominance since the switch to the 2012 construction tyres, their inconceivable level of Rake and the fact that mine and Gary's heat induced splitter deflection theories were debunked by the FIA's heat test still left me with a nagging doubt.  So I went back to the drawing board and even put other articles on hold, taking a new approach to what the Splitter was doing...

 

http://somersf1.blog...litterstay.html

 

It's by no means conclusive but I felt enough evidence was mounting to speculate that they are simulating a Mass Damper with the Splitter and Stay to write about it.  Based on the current feedback I will add that when you watch the video bear in mind that the Splitter doesn't come into contact with the ground yet the Stay goes bananas.

 

My understanding is probably wrong, but don't the inerters (J dampers) do what the mass damper did? 

[EricSivry]

RB9 - fastest in corners and fastest down the staights.

[Kelateboy]

@tgruener

#F1 Force India suspicious: Why is RBR running most of their 8 filming days at Rockingham? There are nicer places to shoot fancy PR clips.

[Kelateboy]

RB9 - fastest in corners and fastest down the staights.

 

Partly true, if you are being pedantic. It is possible that they are the fastest over a straight that is 400m long.

 

But RBR never have the top speed in any GP this year.