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The RB9 - Red Bull Racing's challenger for 2013


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#501 lbennie

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 00:29

From the autosport article:

"There was an issue with Mark Webber's data system in the garage during the formation lap. The ECU on the car was fine.


i would imagine mclaren are responsible for the data system that interfaces with their ECU as well.
Just because it is situated in the RB garage does not necessarily wash their hands of responsibility.

Why say this then, if it has nothing to do with them?

"We regret any disruption caused to Mark's preparations for the start of the race and will continue to work with the team to prevent any recurrence."


Sounds like they are arguing semantics, not accusing horner of lying. The PR machine is in full swing, no doubt.


Edited by lbennie, 19 March 2013 - 00:47.


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#502 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 00:32

I am not sure if you have any problem with Horner specifically, but trusting MES' words over Horner is just picking a side.

While all teams are, at times, economical with the truth to the press, I doubt this is one of those occasions. Lying in this instance is the sort of thing that could snowball in to serious repercussions, with lawyers getting involved or putting their exclusive contract in doubt by pissing off the FIA.

#503 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:06

As MES have done "an investigation" and as Horner has not disputed MES's findings (which by now I believe he has had sufficient time to do) then I have a tendency to lean towards the MES "investigation" results.


Now who is taking sides? :rotfl:

Seriously though, that is like saying once guilty then always guilty.


This message board would suffer a major melt down if that were the case. :rotfl:

MES' findings stated the actual ECU does not have a problem, but the data program does. It would be pretty much like my laptop repair centre saying 'your laptop is in fine shape but the operating system doesn't work.' Add to that fact, they actually issue an apology to Red Bull in the exact statement. My assumption is naturally to trust that Horner got it right, read the apology and saw it as case closed and no need to further comment. (lbennie makes this point very well.)

Of course, I may be wrong. And I do not deny I am taking sides, in fact the precise opposite side of your point-of-view. But it is just an opinion. However stating Horner shot himself in his foot seems to assume that he is wrong as a fact so I am just stating the opposite may be true as well.

And no, once guilty does not mean always guilty. But then again, most people tend not to believe in the boy who cried wolf, so precedence does play a part in making judgement on any given event.


While all teams are, at times, economical with the truth to the press, I doubt this is one of those occasions. Lying in this instance is the sort of thing that could snowball in to serious repercussions, with lawyers getting involved or putting their exclusive contract in doubt by pissing off the FIA.

Lying and omission of facts are very different things. MES never outright claimed they had no part to play in the failure at all, just that the specific ECU was not the cause. But the programming or other ECU related equipment may have been flawed, thus the apology.

#504 MikeV1987

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:29

http://img.gawkerass...if/k-bigpic.gif

:)


Edited by MikeV1987, 19 March 2013 - 01:46.


#505 Black Widow

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 01:47

i would imagine mclaren are responsible for the data system that interfaces with their ECU as well.

I would have presumed so too, but now I am not so certain about that....
Microsoft / Lotus F1 software

The Lotus cars are fitted with 100 sensors, measuring from temperature and tyre pressure, to G-forces, the distance to the ground and the trajectory of moving parts.

They provide 15 megabytes of data, downloaded to the garage via microwave links each time the car laps past. The data is automatically routed to respective engineers for immediate adjustments and is used during the race to improve strategy, assess incoming problems and react quickly to changing circumstances, Puentes said. Each race produces 50GB of data.

http://www.theage.co...0318-2g9te.html

Would be interesting to know where the defining line is and if this is actually talking about "live" data/decisions.


Why say this then, if it has nothing to do with them?

Sounds like they are arguing semantics, not accusing horner of lying. The PR machine is in full swing, no doubt.

Again, because of the PR spin as you mention, I could also read that as a statement of remorse rather than an admission of guilt. Who knows, could be read either way.

Of course, I may be wrong.

And so may I.

And I do not deny I am taking sides, in fact the precise opposite side of your point-of-view. But it is just an opinion. However stating Horner shot himself in his foot seems to assume that he is wrong as a fact so I am just stating the opposite may be true as well.

You have a healthier opinion of Horner than I. :rotfl:



#506 H2H

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:52

http://img.gawkerass...if/k-bigpic.gif

:)


Love it :clap:

#507 H2H

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:11


Harsha from F1 technical compared the speed trap times listened on the official F1 page. The FIA takes the good stuff down.

I Don't think it was a Big thing RBR was running same Speed as they were in 2011. They are just 4 KPH slower in 2012 compared to 2013.Also don't forget that we had a Wet qualifying session and other cars doesn't have the Fastest Lap time on DRY tires
Australia 2011: http://www.formula1....results/season/ ... _trap.html
Vettel : 308.3 P17 Webber : 308.3 P18
Australia 2012: http://www.formula1....results/season/ ... _trap.html
Vettel : 303.7 P19 Webber : 302.6 P20
Australia 2013: http://www.formula1....results/season/ ... _trap.html
Vettel : 307.6 P06 Webber : 304.9 P09


Different tyres, different conditions, different rules but it is interesting that RB was so quick in relative terms.


#508 Kelateboy

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:42

Does anybody have the shots of Vettel's tyres with the graining problem?

Could it be because RBR run an extreme camber on Vettel's car in Australia? Webber did not have that severe a problem, so there should be something specific to Vettel's car and setup that caused the graining issue.

#509 plumtree

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 12:09

http://adamcooperf1....ot-a-quick-car/

Horner is convinced that Vettel’s problems were related to his set-up, which was different from that of his team mate. Webber suffered less dramatic tyre degradation, which is not the usual pattern at Red Bull.

“We know that we’ve got a good car, certainly through practice. Our least competitive moments were during the race. Mark was very competitive in the race and had better tyre durability than Sebastian in the race so we have to look again at where the differences in set-up were between the two drivers. I think it’s more set-up dependent than inherent in the car, as I said we had two different versions going on.”

http://motorsport.ne...ia-race/073.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/jw0FYEn.jpg, http://i.imgur.com/VFrTtF0.jpg, http://i.imgur.com/OEnuca9.jpg
It's hard to tell from the pictures anyway, but it doesn't look particularly extreme to my untrained eye.

Edited by plumtree, 19 March 2013 - 12:27.


#510 Gintonious

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 13:15

The tires were really battered after qualy, I was surprised that he was able to stay out front for as long as he did.

I think all the teams will be working on the set up options now, quite closely.

I will admit though that it is quite odd to see RB munching its wheels like that.

#511 F.M.

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:34

McLaren has apologized to Red Bull for the ECU issue Webber suffered at the start of the GP.

McLaren:
"There was a software-related issue that meant that Mark Webber's car's garage data system had to be re-started during the formation lap. That disrupted his preparations for the start of the race, for which Mark and the team has our apology. We are working together with them to prevent any recurrence."

Red Bull:
"We lost all telemetry on the formation lap...that meant he (Webber) was blind for the start and that ECU issue shut the KERS (energy recovery system) down as well. So by the time we reset the whole system he'd lost ground at the start."

http://uk.eurosport....-200707452.html

Edited by F.M., 19 March 2013 - 20:34.


#512 Sakae

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 20:59

http://img.gawkerass...if/k-bigpic.gif

:)

Montoya sometimes drove in the same (sideways slider) manner.

#513 Kelateboy

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:02

McLaren has apologized to Red Bull for the ECU issue Webber suffered at the start of the GP.

McLaren:
"There was a software-related issue that meant that Mark Webber's car's garage data system had to be re-started during the formation lap. That disrupted his preparations for the start of the race, for which Mark and the team has our apology. We are working together with them to prevent any recurrence."

Red Bull:
"We lost all telemetry on the formation lap...that meant he (Webber) was blind for the start and that ECU issue shut the KERS (energy recovery system) down as well. So by the time we reset the whole system he'd lost ground at the start."

http://uk.eurosport....-200707452.html

We are quite clear with what happened to Webber with the ECU, but what about Vettel's issue?

I have not not been able to gather more information on this supposed loss of telemetry (maybe partially) to Vettel at the start.

#514 H2H

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:23

The long straights of Sepang await and we get to see more of the internal DRD system. Now it seems to be set up to straight back. Guess we will see the DRD pole and actually some blowing...

Posted Image

Another sweet pic, note also the different package of the resonator/helmholtz chamber.

Posted Image


Are the wishbone ducts gone? (See my last post with the big pic). No I don't think so and looking at the big pic at the area right in front of that wishbone it is obvious that the car is well packaged with such a duct in mind...

Posted Image

Edited by H2H, 21 March 2013 - 12:52.


#515 H2H

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:50

Top stuff from Renault:

Without the engine freeze, what would we be seeing now with regards to throttle design?
"Actually, without any regulations you probably would not have throttles any more. In 2011 when teams were using maps to power off throttle blown floors, throttles were left (more or less) open the entire lap to maintain exhaust flow, and torque and ignition maps alone were used to control the torque produced. If the rules had not been clarified, then the air intake would have been left fully opened and torque would have been controlled completely by ignition. This would have made very efficient cars."


I would love to see an alternative universe in which the FIA banned nothing. ;)

Edited by H2H, 21 March 2013 - 12:52.


#516 Zava

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:32

those pictures made me really doubt it is for the DRD. the trapezoid shaped thing it is attached to in the second pic looks like the usual gearbox cooling inlet.
remember, f1tech fans have the bad habit of seeking magic in every single detail,even if it is for something basic and simple. ;)

#517 GlenP

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 14:38

I think I agree Zava - when you see a close-up pic of the rear of the RBR you an see the oil cooler on top of the gearbox - seems to me that those ducts just send cool air to there.

#518 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:32

Trouble with overheating front brake for Vettel on his installation lap.

RBR is running infrared sensor on the side of the nosecone to check the temperatures on the front tyres.

#519 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:36

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson:

"Sebastian Vettel is the only driver I have seen at the moment who is driving the car in line with the way it has been designed. He is very good at using the exhaust-blown diffuser for lap-time benefit. He goes into the corner on the brakes, making it understeer. Then, he comes off the brakes, which makes the front bite, and immediately gets on the throttle which generates rear downforce through the exhaust gases blowing the rear brake ducts and sealing the floor."


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#520 apoka

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:37

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson:

"Sebastian Vettel is the only driver I have seen at the moment who is driving the car in line with the way it has been designed. He is very good at using the exhaust-blown diffuser for lap-time benefit. He goes into the corner on the brakes, making it understeer. Then, he comes off the brakes, which makes the front bite, and immediately gets on the throttle which generates rear downforce through the exhaust gases blowing the rear brake ducts and sealing the floor."

:up:

On the RB9 this weekend: The pace so far doesn't look bad, but worse than in Australia. Tyre deg does not look much better as far as the limited data allows to judge. Lotus looks best by far and Ferrari competitive even in FPs. Another podium could be difficult. What do you think?


#521 plumtree

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:04

:up:

On the RB9 this weekend: The pace so far doesn't look bad, but worse than in Australia. Tyre deg does not look much better as far as the limited data allows to judge. Lotus looks best by far and Ferrari competitive even in FPs. Another podium could be difficult. What do you think?

I feel the same way.

https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1

Mark Webber "The whole category is geared around tyres at the moment. Everything is around tyres - tyres, tyres, tyres, tyres..."
Possibly a little frustration there from Mark Webber, who devoted 95 secs of his afternoon to meeting the world's TV crews!
Sebastian Vettel "I hope we have enough tyres to survive the race, tyre wear was obviously quite big today for everyone..."

Both quotes indicate they haven't solved the tyre riddle yet. Pretty much in the same state as where they were last weekend.

Edited by plumtree, 22 March 2013 - 08:10.


#522 Flamini

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:18

Interesting then. Different track, warmer temperatures and still the same problem? Maybe it will take a little longer for them than I thought.

But sooner or later (rather sooner) they will be ok with degradation - they are too great team.

#523 apoka

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:09

Interesting then. Different track, warmer temperatures and still the same problem? Maybe it will take a little longer for them than I thought.

But sooner or later (rather sooner) they will be ok with degradation - they are too great team.

WDC/WCC could well be lost by then ... For the next few races I hope for good damage limitation drives - similar to last year.

More quotes from Vettel:

Asked how he felt about potential race pace, Vettel replied: "It looked pretty OK but quite a mess if you look at how long the tyres last.
"It doesn't look very nice I would say. I hope we have enough tyres to survive the race.
"Today tyre wear was pretty severe for everyone, so obviously you go around way under the [potential of the] car.
"It is not a lot of fun and that is how it is."
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106233

#524 F.M.

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:33

Degradation of the hard tyre on Vettel's car:

9 1:41.576
10 1:50.391
11 1:41.873
12 1:42.487
13 1:42.486
14 1:42.687
15 1:43.214
16 1:43.593 -> aaaaand they're gone
17 1:45.105
18 1:45.381
19 2:05.763
20 1:46.323

#525 Group B

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:55

I'm with Webber, waaayyyyy too much tyre impact. What's the point spending £100m building a great car, eeking out a tenth here, two tenths there, if the tyres shit the bed after 3 laps and drop off by several seconds. It reminds me of the year when Bridgestone got owned by Michelin and half the teams were rendered completely helpless. Tyres playing a part is fine, but they shouldn't be by far the dominant factor.

#526 sv401

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:30

Interesting then. Different track, warmer temperatures and still the same problem? Maybe it will take a little longer for them than I thought.


Sepang is one of the hardest tracks on the tyres, so high degradation here is not really surprising. Tyre wear in Melbourne is normally low, so the fact that there were problems already there (compared to the previous two years, when 2 stops were normal, and the tyres worked fine) does not bode well for the more demanding tracks like this one or Barcelona. Maybe Pirelli can break their previous record of total pit stops per race, and some people will pit 5 times ?

#527 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:57

Its gonna rain anyway, so the point about degradation is probably redundant. If not it looks like an easy 1-2 for Lotus. But, we wont go down without a fight! Bring on the Ice Man! :smoking:

#528 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:06

:up:

On the RB9 this weekend: The pace so far doesn't look bad, but worse than in Australia. Tyre deg does not look much better as far as the limited data allows to judge. Lotus looks best by far and Ferrari competitive even in FPs. Another podium could be difficult. What do you think?

Nothing changes from a week ago - RBR is still hard on tyres. They have the outright 1-lap pace to even snatch P1, but when it comes to race pace and tyres degradation, RBR has not managed to sort out this issue. They are now 3rd best after Ferrari and Lotus in race trim. Luckily for them, McLaren is bad, and I believe Mercedes lacks the pace here to really challenge RBR due to tyres issue as well.

Podium is still within reach, but I don't think a race win is possible here.

#529 apoka

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:09

Degradation of the hard tyre on Vettel's car:

9 1:41.576
10 1:50.391
11 1:41.873
12 1:42.487
13 1:42.486
14 1:42.687
15 1:43.214
16 1:43.593 -> aaaaand they're gone
17 1:45.105
18 1:45.381
19 2:05.763
20 1:46.323

8 laps would mean 6 stops. They probably need to adjust the delta a bit to do something like 8-16-16-16. Maybe the rain helps them.


#530 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:18

Interesting then. Different track, warmer temperatures and still the same problem? Maybe it will take a little longer for them than I thought.

But sooner or later (rather sooner) they will be ok with degradation - they are too great team.

They will sort out the issue, but the question is when?

In the mean time, it is damage limitation time for RBR just like last year too. But they are lucky because Lotus could take away some valuable points from Ferrari like they did in the 1st race with McLaren and Mercedes not being good enough to challenge the top three teams.

At least the car is fast enough over 1 lap stint, unlike last year when Vettel struggled just to make it into Q3 in several races.

#531 DILLIGAF

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:18

I'm with Webber, waaayyyyy too much tyre impact. What's the point spending £100m building a great car, eeking out a tenth here, two tenths there, if the tyres shit the bed after 3 laps and drop off by several seconds. It reminds me of the year when Bridgestone got owned by Michelin and half the teams were rendered completely helpless. Tyres playing a part is fine, but they shouldn't be by far the dominant factor.


+1

The sport should not be dominated by the tyres to this degree. Hopefully things improve once we leave Malaysia but it's not looking good for the RB9 atm. :|

#532 encircled

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:19

Horner on long run pace.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106255

"We have focused more on long runs, to try and better understand the tyres. We had a reasonable run in P1, and session two was interrupted by rain, so we have got a large amount of data to go through tonight to work out the best direction to go forward.

"I don't think outright performance is an issue for us - it is about understanding what is best for the tyre under race conditions."



#533 GlenP

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:49

They need to stop looking for pole and set the car up for Sunday, not Saturday.

#534 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 13:06

They need to stop looking for pole and set the car up for Sunday, not Saturday.

That is what they were trying to do today in FP1 and FP2 - setting up the car for long runs. Apparently, they have not sorted out the tyres issue yet as you could clearly see the tyres falling apart on RBR's after a few flying laps.

Webber summed it best when he described the damp track are "the only conditions [the slicks] work in, to be honest..." and "Everything is around tyres. Tyres, tyres, tyre, tyres, tyres..."

http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular
Mark Webber says Formula 1 ruled by tyres now


#535 encircled

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 13:08

According to Horner it is not as simple as that.

#536 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 13:11

According to Horner it is not as simple as that.

"I don't think outright performance is an issue for us - it is about understanding what is best for the tyre under race conditions." - Horner

http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular
Malaysian GP: Long-run pace Red Bull's main concern


#537 encircled

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 13:36

And I quoted that earlier too.

#538 GlenP

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 13:36

No different to last year really, with the tyres. Eventually all the teams figured it out and minimised the number of stops. I think Red Bull will do so again, but it may take time.

#539 OO7

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 13:42

No different to last year really, with the tyres. Eventually all the teams figured it out and minimised the number of stops. I think Red Bull will do so again, but it may take time.

And if Pirelli are still in the game come 2014, today's medium will become tomorrows hard and tomorrows medium will be today's soft and so on.

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#540 Kelateboy

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 13:47

And I quoted that earlier too.

Sorry, I did not read all the previous postings before replying... :)

#541 encircled

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 14:19

Sorry, I did not read all the previous postings before replying... :)

That's ok, I do make mistakes too. :)

#542 FastnLoud

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 14:41

from the onboard the front wing looks like its going to snap it's vibrating that much jeez

#543 H2H

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 16:42

The new shots have certainly shown us a lot of details. With the full duct visible it is now rather obvious that the DRD duct is foremost a cooling one. Keep in mind that the following facts, which I collected after taking a good deal at the old pics:

a) The DRD pole in Barcelona was most likely blown from exactly that duct we are seeing now used only to cool stuff. Cold temp and suited shifting made that certainly not a problem, especially if we look at the size and position of the inlet.

b) The wing could still be blown by using that very inlet if the transistor does it's job properly and is switched 'on' after passing a certain speed. In excess of those speeds the inlet would deliver plenty of air if the transistor diverts some of it to the proper DRD channel leading to pole. Now of course that opens up another can of worms of which DRD has already plenty.

c) The wishbone ducts which appeared late at second Barcelona test seem to have nothing to do with 'DRD' duct, as has become quite clear after those beatiful shots. That begs the questions what they are for.

d) It is a great time to be a fan of the technical side of the sport as you get your feedback quickly if you are right or wrong.

e) Playing around with the blowing the wing makes zero sense under those tyre conditions. Later it might worth the effort.

f) Handling the cooling up there does of course help to package the sidepods. Aero gains > mech. gains.

Edited by H2H, 22 March 2013 - 16:44.


#544 H2H

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:23

:lol:

Thought RBR made the right call to use the s*** tyres to conserve some of less the horrible ones, but boy was it close...

Nice slides tough Mark.

Let us hope that the sky opens up...

Edited by H2H, 23 March 2013 - 08:25.


#545 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:06

P1 and P5 for RBR. Congrats Vettel on your 38th pole.

Now please try to minimize going backward tomorrow... But if it stays dry tomorrow, great news for Vettel because he could start on primes. :D

But with 2 fast-starting Ferraris lurking just behind him, he could be third after the first corner.

#546 Zava

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:09

P1 and P5 for RBR. Congrats Vettel on your 38th pole.

Now please try to minimize going backward tomorrow... But if it stays dry tomorrow, great news for Vettel because he could start on primes. :D

But with 2 fast-starting Ferraris lurking just behind him, he could be third after the first corner.

maybe he should start on the mediums, stay close to the ferraris in front of him, pit for hards before the ferraris, jump them, no more medium tyres.

#547 H2H

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:10


Top job by Seb and it confirms my thoughts that this car has plenty of naked pace as long as the rubber works. The sky did indeed do it's job. Mark stayed of course out too long and the interes had no longer enough life for an attack towards the end.

Once again the gap looks crushing but once again it was a pole won mostly due the right timing in the right conditions. The race pace on a dry Sepang is still a major worry indeed.

#548 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:14

Top job by Seb and it confirms my thoughts that this car has plenty of naked pace as long as the rubber works. The sky did indeed do it's job. Mark stayed of course out too long and the interes had no longer enough life for an attack towards the end.

Once again the gap looks crushing but once again it was a pole won mostly due the right timing in the right conditions. The race pace on a dry Sepang is still a major worry indeed.


:up:

2 Qualifying sessions 2 Pole Positions. You're right it is clear that the pace is there the tyres are the only thing which are preventing the RB9 to show its pace consistently.

The wear in the practice sessions looked very bad but who knows what conditions we'd get tomorrow, I wouldn't mind wet conditions since the car has performed well in them but also if it's dry we can use the primes which is the preferred tyre.

#549 MarileneRiddle

MarileneRiddle
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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:18

:lol:

Thought RBR made the right call to use the s*** tyres to conserve some of less the horrible ones, but boy was it close...

Nice slides tough Mark.

Let us hope that the sky opens up...

:up: Come on Sebastian!

I think wet races will help the RB9 throughout this year because (from what little we have seen of it) the degradation doesn't seem as bad for both Red Bulls. Add to that fact that Webber is decent in the wet and Sebastian is exceptional, it can still be a great year ahead.

#550 Sakae

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:23

Top job by Seb and it confirms my thoughts that this car has plenty of naked pace as long as the rubber works. The sky did indeed do it's job. Mark stayed of course out too long and the interes had no longer enough life for an attack towards the end.

Once again the gap looks crushing but once again it was a pole won mostly due the right timing in the right conditions. The race pace on a dry Sepang is still a major worry indeed.

One would assume that Webber's racing experience kicks-in in critical moments like these, but no, as it appears at the end. I wonder if 2013 tire can actually surprise a driver by randomized accelerated rate of degradation and in least expected moment.