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The RB9 - Red Bull Racing's challenger for 2013


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#551 apoka

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:30

It's quite rare that you have to hope for rain at RB, but this time it worked. :) Rain might be their only chance to stay ahead of Ferrari and Lotus tomorrow. P4+P5 looks realistic after qualy today (behind Alonso, Massa, Kimi).


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#552 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:36

One would assume that Webber's racing experience kicks-in in critical moments like these, but no, as it appears at the end. I wonder if 2013 tire can actually surprise a driver by randomized accelerated rate of degradation and in least expected moment.

It is 2012 all over again - 7 different winners in the first 7 races.

Then Pirelli "secretly" switched the tyres to harder compoud and you have the normal pecking order until the end of the season. :D

#553 plumtree

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:45

Horner cleared up what strategy Seb/Mark chose.
Seb, a banker lap on the first inters and another lap on another ones.
Mark, five timed lap on a single set. They set up Mark would get the chequered flag last but he lost time too much to Hamilton. Thus he lost his opportunity to try his last lap and became the first one to finish the session. He wasn't aware of it and with the thought that he would go for the final lap later he probably didn't give his absolute best. That's why he was frustrated. Understandably.

Seb set his Q2 time on the used medium tyres by the way. In the end the gamble worked well though, a bit too close for my liking. Five brand new dry sets. Hopefully those are enough to...

Edited by plumtree, 23 March 2013 - 09:48.


#554 Andy35

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:59

Horner cleared up what strategy Seb/Mark chose.
Seb, a banker lap on the first inters and another lap on another ones.
Mark, five timed lap on a single set. They set up Mark would get the chequered flag last but he lost time too much to Hamilton. Thus he lost his opportunity to try his last lap and became the first one to finish the session. He wasn't aware of it and with the thought that he would go for the final lap later he probably didn't give his absolute best. That's why he was frustrated. Understandably.

Seb set his Q2 time on the used medium tyres by the way. In the end the gamble worked well though, a bit too close for my liking. Five brand new dry sets. Hopefully those are enough to...



Mark is upset because Seb seems to either always have the luck, or a far better race engineer or perhaps being favoured always by the team. Not saying which is the case but give me a run down of how many times in qualifying Seb gas always had the best shot compared to Mark. Give it is a ratio, like 10-0 or 20-0 or something so I can ponder over the stats. Work back from Aus GP this year. When does Mark ever run last over the line for that perfect lap? What's the ratio?

Is the team based in England with it's fair principles or is there another influence frrom other nations ?

My wife comes from Austria for instance. Dreadful woman.

Andy






#555 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:08

:up: Come on Sebastian!

I think wet races will help the RB9 throughout this year because (from what little we have seen of it) the degradation doesn't seem as bad for both Red Bulls. Add to that fact that Webber is decent in the wet and Sebastian is exceptional, it can still be a great year ahead.

A wet race would not be that bad for Sebastian and RBR. At least they don't have too much to worry about the tyres degradation.

In Q3 today, both drivers could only extract 10 or so laps from the hard tyres. And the times was not that good either, with the best being in 1min 43.3-43.4 region.

#556 woftam

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:10

Horner cleared up what strategy Seb/Mark chose.
Seb, a banker lap on the first inters and another lap on another ones.
Mark, five timed lap on a single set. They set up Mark would get the chequered flag last but he lost time too much to Hamilton. Thus he lost his opportunity to try his last lap and became the first one to finish the session. He wasn't aware of it and with the thought that he would go for the final lap later he probably didn't give his absolute best. That's why he was frustrated. Understandably.

Seb set his Q2 time on the used medium tyres by the way. In the end the gamble worked well though, a bit too close for my liking. Five brand new dry sets. Hopefully those are enough to...


It doesn't take Einstein to know which strategy gives you the best chance of pole. A brand new set or one that's done 5 laps already. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

#557 plumtree

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:16

It doesn't take Einstein to know which strategy gives you the best chance of pole. A brand new set or one that's done 5 laps already. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

Mark and his RE made the call. He could have changed it, if he'd felt it wouldn't be going to work.
I'm really tired of this sabotage talk.

#558 woftam

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:33

Mark and his RE made the call. He could have changed it, if he'd felt it wouldn't be going to work.
I'm really tired of this sabotage talk.


Sabotage talk? Huh? Dumb strategy by his side of the garage. Hamilton had the same silly strategy.

#559 plumtree

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:38

Sabotage talk? Huh? Dumb strategy by his side of the garage. Hamilton had the same silly strategy.

Then accept my apology. I misunderstood that you implied the pit wall deliberately gave the inferior strategy to Mark. :o Actually I wonder who made the final call.


Edit: Reading his words, it looks to me like he doesn't feel the strategy itself was too wrong.

Sebastian Vettel (1st, Q3 - 1m 49.674s)
“It was very difficult as the circuit was half dry and half wet today – so it was difficult to find the right compromise between pushing hard and also saving the tyres. It was the right strategy to come in and change the tyres and the pace was there. It was a good session in Q3 and it was clear what we had to do, so I’m pleased with the result. It’s a long race tomorrow and whoever wins will have done the best job. We managed to save some tyres today which will help if the race is dry, but we will see.”

Mark Webber (5th, Q3 - 1m 52.244s)
“It’s disappointing to finish fifth. We didn’t get the timing quite right in the last part of Q3, I thought I had more laps. We were quick enough, but we went too slow on the lap when we should have been going quick and it meant we didn’t get a last timed lap in. The time doesn’t represent how comfortable I felt in the car today and it’s frustrating when you put so much work in and know you could have done better. I’m looking forward to the race tomorrow – it should be interesting with the weather.”

Christian Horner, Red Bull team principal
“A challenging qualifying, but in the end we were able to navigate both cars into Q3 when the rain came – it was then a question of getting the timings right. Sebastian elected to do two runs – it was always clear there was only time for one and one (timed laps) or five laps if you ran the whole session. Mark having not got his first lap in elected to stay out and, as the circuit continued to dry, the lap times continued to fall. Sebastian put together a fantastic lap in tricky conditions to get the pole. With Mark, it was a great shame as we thought he would be the last car to cross the line and get the last timed lap, but a miscommunication about the number of remaining laps meant that he was first car to get the chequered flag, missing a fifth lap by one second. It was a shame, but first and fifth for tomorrow’s race is a good starting position. That said, I don’t think pole will be the deciding factor of tomorrow’s race; if it’s wet it helps with visibility, but in the event of a dry race then tyre degradation and tyre strategy will be key.”

Edited by plumtree, 23 March 2013 - 11:36.


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#560 F.M.

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:38

It doesn't take Einstein to know which strategy gives you the best chance of pole. A brand new set or one that's done 5 laps already. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

No, not at all.
If the track had dried out a bit more it would have favoured the older inters

#561 woftam

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:44

No, not at all.
If the track had dried out a bit more it would have favoured the older inters


Everybody had the chance to come in & put a fresh set of inters on with 5 or 6 minutes to go. The smart ones did so. Conditions were not going to change enough in 5 minutes to help old inters. I don't know what Webber, Hamilton & Rosberg were thinking? Perhaps they want to save a set of inters in case it's wet tomorrow. I don't know. Just seemed a silly decision.


#562 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:05

It doesn't take Einstein to know which strategy gives you the best chance of pole. A brand new set or one that's done 5 laps already. Pretty obvious I would have thought.

It is not that obvious, and that is why only 5 drivers pitted for new inters - Sebastian, Sutil, Kimi and the 2 Ferrari drivers.

We are discussing with the benefits of hindsight. Had it stopped drizzling and track was drying up, as F.M. put it earlier, the used inters would be the tyres of choice. But it never stopped drizzling; hence the new inters seemed to have the advantage.

Edited by Kelateboy, 23 March 2013 - 13:43.


#563 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:19

F1PitRadio stated that "Vettel to box now and take on -4 turns of front wing adjustment" when he pitted for the new inters in Q3.

Why are they making that adjustment? Did Vettel complain of balance issue in the 1st stint of Q3?

#564 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:21

Tyres playing a part is fine, but they shouldn't be by far the dominant factor.

Why not, it was not a problem before for RBR as they collect world championship trophies for the cabinet, while Schumi must try to control an undrivable Mercedes.

If Ferrari are happy to take 10s of millions from Bridgestone and Renault likewise with Michelin, then that shows tyres are very important.

FIA have created the fair field where everybody gets the same tyres for a fair and reasonable cost :up: . NASCAR crews tune to the tyre.. you tweak it, you work on it, you get the car to grip the track as the sun goes down and the 500 miles go their conclusion... F1 teams should do likewise. :up:


#565 scheivlak

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:31

It is not that obvious, and that is why only 3 drivers pitted for new inters - Sebastian and the 2 Ferrari drivers.

Kimi and I think Sutil did the same.

#566 LiJu914

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:57

Mark is upset because Seb seems to either always have the luck, or a far better race engineer or perhaps being favoured always by the team. Not saying which is the case but give me a run down of how many times in qualifying Seb gas always had the best shot compared to Mark. Give it is a ratio, like 10-0 or 20-0 or something so I can ponder over the stats. Work back from Aus GP this year. When does Mark ever run last over the line for that perfect lap? What's the ratio?


Answer: Australia 2013

At least he could set his fastest lap later than SV, he was still 4 tenth off though.

#567 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:48

Kimi and I think Sutil did the same.

I rewatched the tape and yes, Kimi and Sutil also pitted for new inters. It was not shown on the feed, but you could see the "pitted" signs on the drivers' standing.

The previous response edited for accuracy.

#568 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:54

Mark is upset because Seb seems to either always have the luck, or a far better race engineer or perhaps being favoured always by the team. Not saying which is the case but give me a run down of how many times in qualifying Seb gas always had the best shot compared to Mark. Give it is a ratio, like 10-0 or 20-0 or something so I can ponder over the stats. Work back from Aus GP this year. When does Mark ever run last over the line for that perfect lap? What's the ratio?

When Webber crossed the line to clock his fastest lap of 1min 52.244, he had 2.02 on the clock. He dropped his pace too much (by more than 10s) and missed going over the line before the chequered flag.

At least he did not blame anybody for this mistake or miscommunication. As he aptly put it - "the timing could have been a bit better."

#569 FPV GTHO

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 15:20

Answer: Australia 2013

At least he could set his fastest lap later than SV, he was still 4 tenth off though.


Only because Seb abandoned his final lap when he knew he had pole.

#570 apoka

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 15:51

Only because Seb abandoned his final lap when he knew he had pole.

But Vettel only made it into that last lap, because he was quick in the lap before (I think he had one second left when crossing the line).  ;) They planned something similar for Webber today, but it didn't work out.

I think they tried to alternate who would get the last turn from race to race, but I'm not sure whether they still do it.

#571 H2H

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:00


Marko is once again outspoken and offers as usually a very insightful view. It is nice to see that RBR thinks that the car is indeed strong:


Q: Melbourne was quite significant in that you had a one-second gap over Ferrari in qualifying, but you could not benefit from that in the race…
HM: And the reason for this is that we have higher tyre wear - and not the grip. We haven’t been in the window where the tyres would have worked.


This morning we’ve been doing a long run - we’ve never done a long run on Saturday morning before, but we were missing the data so we had to it.


Of course it was surprising to see McLaren so far behind, but the biggest surprise was Sutil. We were running up to him and probably got too close, because from that moment on we weren’t able to keep up with his pace. And not only this, he was able to stay endlessly on one set of tyres, then pit for the softs and is finished after three laps. Who can understand all that?


Other teams witness these kinds of problems in different shapes, but it cannot be that you have a car that has the best downforce and you have to reduce it to make the tyres work to some extent.


HM: Not at all. I always understood that the best and fastest should win - and not that the one who builds the best car is punished for it.



Edited by H2H, 23 March 2013 - 17:01.


#572 LiJu914

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:07

Only because Seb abandoned his final lap when he knew he had pole.


Doesn´t matter as you said yourself: He abandoned his lap. So it was SV´s earlier lap vs. Mark´s later lap. Vettel was still ahead.

#573 choyothe

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:20

Doesn´t matter as you said yourself: He abandoned his lap. So it was SV´s earlier lap vs. Mark´s later lap. Vettel was still ahead.


Seb got pole by 1.7 seconds (at that point) to make the flag by 1 second, that is no great timing, more about luck. So of course it does matter if Mark had 2.02 to make a lap before the flag but didn't get it done, that's the exact same scenario. Now why Mark didn't make the flag is another question though.

Edited by choyothe, 23 March 2013 - 17:20.


#574 Kelateboy

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:31

Seb got pole by 1.7 seconds (at that point) to make the flag by 1 second, that is no great timing, more about luck. So of course it does matter if Mark had 2.02 to make a lap before the flag but didn't get it done, that's the exact same scenario. Now why Mark didn't make the flag is another question though.

It must have been a total mis-communication between Mark and his engineer. Mark might have been unaware of how much time he had, and on top of that, his engineer might have failed to keep him informed.

My take is that they did not time Seb to perfection in Australia when he crossed the line 1s before the chequered flag - Seb just got lucky. Just like Seb was lucky in Q1 and Q2 today despite posting rather lacklustre times.

#575 LiJu914

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:36

Seb got pole by 1.7 seconds (at that point) to make the flag by 1 second, that is no great timing, more about luck. So of course it does matter if Mark had 2.02 to make a lap before the flag but didn't get it done, that's the exact same scenario. Now why Mark didn't make the flag is another question though.


I´m sorry, but i don´t know what this has to do with, what i wrote.

Edited by LiJu914, 23 March 2013 - 17:40.


#576 mkoscevic

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 17:40

This interview with Helmut Marko on formula1.com was very funny at times. It's not like F1 became a proper show two weeks ago and we all seem surprised. Best should cope the best with the change. It's interesting to watch best constructor in the business going forward with the change.

#577 choyothe

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 20:33

I´m sorry, but i don´t know what this has to do with, what i wrote.


The point was that Webber was in line to have the final try this time, I think. I was just pointing out that in Australia it was luck/great lap that got Vettel the scheduled last lap, while it was bad luck/miscommunication that didn't give the scheduled last lap this time.

#578 DILLIGAF

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 00:10

It must have been a total mis-communication between Mark and his engineer. Mark might have been unaware of how much time he had, and on top of that, his engineer might have failed to keep him informed.


You're probably right. :up: I did notice that on his Q3 out lap Mark slowed down to give himself room for his first flying lap but Kimi (according to Brundle) drove around him. Subsequently Mark's first timed lap was a touch over 2.00mins. Not Kimi's fault imho but that wasted lap may have compromised Webber's strategy.

#579 sv401

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:03

Not bad result for a car that destroys tyres. :p

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#580 H2H

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:26


Indeed. The RB9 showed great pace especially in the hands of Seb and in the end the car was the fastest on the track despite having a strong competitor in Mercedes. The pace of Renault and Ferrari was a bit difficult to judge...

So good news indeed and a lot of points.

#581 Shiroo

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:29

Indeed. The RB9 showed great pace especially in the hands of Seb and in the end the car was the fastest on the track despite having a strong competitor in Mercedes. The pace of Renault and Ferrari was a bit difficult to judge...

So good news indeed and a lot of points.

because Mark had turned down engine, while Vettel ignored it

#582 mkoscevic

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:48

Helmut Marko is good at diverting public attention away from Red Bull's issues.

He always brings someone else up there. Today it was Mercedes.

#583 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:25

1st win for the RB9 and the car showed great pace when it was needed. Despite the controversy that may surround the victory at least the team left Malaysia with the full monty with Ferrari only bagging 12pts in the Constructors battle.

#584 H2H

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:39

1st win for the RB9 and the car showed great pace when it was needed. Despite the controversy that may surround the victory at least the team left Malaysia with the full monty with Ferrari only bagging 12pts in the Constructors battle.


Indeed a great weekend for RBR in terms of pace and points.

#585 Disgrace

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:43

Everyone should thank Red Bull for concealing their f*ck ups. Alonso, Ferrari, McLaren and Lotus all screwed up massively but nobody is talking about them.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 March 2013 - 11:43.


#586 H2H

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 17:34


Alonso screwed up badly, Renault had a troubled weekend, McLaren did once again forget to put all four wheels on Buttons car, Force India offered us comedy at the pits. So I would not overstate the result of the weekend as many competitors shot themselves into the knee and RBR escaped a Turkey 2010 narrowly. Mercedes did also do a great job and in China we will have different conditions.

Still it seems to me obvious that this evolution of the RB8 has car-wise everything in place to fight for both championships. I hope that China won't be a problem tyre-wise.

#587 plumtree

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 17:08

There's still something to celebrate. :)

Posted Image
Full list (73 pit stops)

@Joe Robinson‏ Two stops yesterday faster than anything ever seen in a race before. #redbull #proudteammember

It's amazing how quickly they adapted to the lights system. :up:
Webber's 2.3s pit stop -

#588 benzine

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 17:32

so all they needed last year was a lights system and they would have beaten mclaren in pitstop times , really really amazing team and it is not about the money though

#589 H2H

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 17:57


Good catch!

:up:

#590 joshb

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 18:16

The RB pitstops in Malaysia were insane!
Its amazing in Bahrain 2010 if a team did 3.5 is was considered good but now, over 2.5 is tardy.

#591 encircled

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 18:33

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#592 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 18:25

Roll on China, with more go faster parts, and pole and a 1-2 finish, in whatever order. :up:

#593 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 18:39

Roll on China, with more go faster parts, and pole and a 1-2 finish, in whatever order. :up:


I'm not sure we'll see many go faster parts on the RB9 until they get the tyres sorted. They're already not running as much DF as they could specifically because of the tyres. <--- THIS should scare the shit out of every other team on the grid!!

Once they figure out the tyres & run the DF levels they want it might very well be over for everyone else and I'm talking about current spec with no updates.

#594 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 18:55

I'm not sure we'll see many go faster parts on the RB9 until they get the tyres sorted. They're already not running as much DF as they could specifically because of the tyres. <--- THIS should scare the shit out of every other team on the grid!!

Once they figure out the tyres & run the DF levels they want it might very well be over for everyone else and I'm talking about current spec with no updates.


I wonder if that is the focus atm in the Red Bull simulator: how to keep the tyres in one piece to extract the genuine RB9 pace. But China isnt such an aero track anyway, so I bet your team will prove to be just as competitive. Heres to a good fight!

#595 joshb

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 18:59

I'm not sure we'll see many go faster parts on the RB9 until they get the tyres sorted. They're already not running as much DF as they could specifically because of the tyres. <--- THIS should scare the shit out of every other team on the grid!!

Once they figure out the tyres & run the DF levels they want it might very well be over for everyone else and I'm talking about current spec with no updates.


That's what I hope for. If they can work out the tyres and find a way of getting their downforce on the car to work with the tyres, it could be a very successful year. Look at Sebs outlap in Malaysia after his final stop- sector times almost 1 seconds faster than any other sector time until then.

#596 One

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 18:59

I'm not sure we'll see many go faster parts on the RB9 until they get the tyres sorted. They're already not running as much DF as they could specifically because of the tyres. <--- THIS should scare the shit out of every other team on the grid!!

Once they figure out the tyres & run the DF levels they want it might very well be over for everyone else and I'm talking about current spec with no updates.


I wonder how yo know all these about RBR9's DF level as a Ferrari fan - man.

#597 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 19:16

Heres to a good fight!


:up:

That's what I hope for. If they can work out the tyres and find a way of getting their downforce on the car to work with the tyres, it could be a very successful year. Look at Sebs outlap in Malaysia after his final stop- sector times almost 1 seconds faster than any other sector time until then.

Even as a Ferrari fan with much faith in my team, this is a scary prospect. Very very scary.

I wonder how yo know all these about RBR9's DF level as a Ferrari fan - man.


Lol, Newey said in an interview they were having to take DF off the car in order to help preserve the tyres. Must keep very good tabs on the competition mate. :up:

Edited by CrucialXtreme, 01 April 2013 - 19:16.


#598 One

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:00

:up:


Even as a Ferrari fan with much faith in my team, this is a scary prospect. Very very scary.



Lol, Newey said in an interview they were having to take DF off the car in order to help preserve the tyres. Must keep very good tabs on the competition mate. :up:

:up:

#599 SCUDmissile

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:25

:up:


Even as a Ferrari fan with much faith in my team, this is a scary prospect. Very very scary.



Lol, Newey said in an interview they were having to take DF off the car in order to help preserve the tyres. Must keep very good tabs on the competition mate. :up:

RBR might have to take more off, but I am sure many teams will have to do the same. I remember reading about it last year with the RB8. I am sure many could go faster is the tyres held up more, but again not to say RBR are suffering more and might steamroller everyone when they figure out the tyres.

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#600 Kelateboy

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:39

I'm not sure we'll see many go faster parts on the RB9 until they get the tyres sorted. They're already not running as much DF as they could specifically because of the tyres. <--- THIS should scare the shit out of every other team on the grid!!

The tyres gave them a serious scare in Australia. You could see that they were still sorting out the issue as they hit FP3 in Malaysia running heavy-fuel cars (simulating 1st stint). But the race was really an eye-opener as I think Vettel was able to get the tyres sorted out and his 2nd stint on options lasted for 17 laps.